The PCE thread - we're not just jam and Jerusalem!!

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Postby earendil81 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:40 pm

Ok I may shock some people here and I apologize if I do, but I am sorry those kids need a good spanking or slap in the face from their parents and learn to know that there are limits to what you can say to adults and do in a classroom.
Drives me nuts when I read that kind of thing.
My mum is a teacher Lewie and I can only sympathize although I cannot say I understand what you are going through.

But all that nonsense about how parents should not physically punish their kids when they are misbehaving is stupid. Obviously there are limits to what should be done but come on, is it normal to walk down the street and see a 6 year old kid kick his mother's shins and call her a b****. I was tempted to slap the kid in the face, I only told the mother "And you don't do anything about this? Your mother would have punished you..."

I cannot really comment on the health bill; the health system in France has been solid for many decades now (although it is being undermined right now but well) so to me it is normal, but I guess one of the difficult thing is that the USA has a much wider population than France and the money and "infrastructure" needed to set this in place might be hard to go by. I don't think 6 months is going to be fair because it will take much more than that.
It will take for people to get used to it as well and there will be abuse, sadly because people are like that. I do hope it turns out to be as positive for the USA as can be.

Now about the abortion... no not going there. not here ;)
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Postby RoseMorninStar » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:50 pm

I think many kids act the way they do because they are hit/slapped/beaten/sworn at at home and they don't know any different. They don't know how to behave any better because their parents don't behave any better. They are not taught respect and self-control. I would imagine many of the people Lewie is talking about come from families where the parents are alcoholics or drug users.. and they just don't parent. Period. I don't think it takes beatings.. it takes TIME and WORK to be a parent. Some parents are just too busy/too tired with their own lives/work/social lives/drugs/alcohol to be decent parents.

Not that a spanking is never warranted, but I think most of the time there are better ways of dealing with children. If they are taught that violence is the way to solve their problems.. that is the kind of adults they will become.
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Postby IrisBrandybuck » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:16 am

Spanking should be an absolute last resort, and one kids know could happen should they go too far over the line. Some kids have strong personalities where you just have to resort to more severe forms of punishment, but with spanking, it should be a last resort (as I said) and not done in the heat of the moment. I can remember being spanked maybe once or twice and deserved it at least once (I still argue the other one!)

My coworker and her husband don't discipline their daughter (age 3) very well. She runs that house, literally. Should she decide to get up at 2 a.m. and play, she does, and gets everyone else up as well. She started biting a while ago. I said, "So, when she bites you, what do you do?" "Oh, I tell her it's not nice." Not nice? I'd at least slap her wrist! Take away toys, don't let her watch her favorite video.

Okay, I'm going to shut up now. :) Except to say, it depends on the kid and the parent. My mom had a look...remember that look? Scared the snot out of me!
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Postby Entmooting » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:24 am

Rose, Tinkerb.. er, Iris, I think you both make really valid points. One thing it does seem to skirt around is the degree to which nature, as opposed to nurture, intrinsically affects us.

Some people are simply born bad, aren't they?

(Btw, that's not necessarily my belief... ;) )
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Postby IrisBrandybuck » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:49 am

Nature vs. nurture is fascinating. I interviewed a woman and her father who found each other after 40 years, he only saw her once after she was born. But they had similar interests and mannerisms. My boyfriend never knew his biological mother or father, but knows from his adopted mom (aunt) that he tends to take after them in personality.

Kids born bad? I don't know about that. Born with strong personalities? You bet. :rofl:

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Postby rwhen » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:52 am

*looks at the thread title*

Nope still the Hello thread.


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Okay, I will go there with you folks. I think that parents today, for a large part, are uninvolved in their childrens lives. They expect the schools to raise and mold them. My SIL is a teacher and my niece is a PhD and words with autistic children.

You don't want to know the stories that my SIL tells us. Rude children, uncooperative children, abusive children. She meets with many parents and they are not alcoholics or abusers, they are nothing. They don't care and the kids run rough shod all over the family.

Also, being raised in an abusive family does not necessarily mean that the kid raised will abuse their children too. Many, like myself, Vanadarlin' and others, raise above what happened to them and try to be different with their own children. My brother is such a case as well. He is very verbal, but no physical abuse.

My niece who is the PhD works wonders with children with autism and she would NEVER advocate spanking, hitting or any such behaviour with a child that has autism or a child without. Her own son is a terror. Why is that? She is not a drug user, she is not violent, she is educated and knows how to work with kids with issues, what happened to her own kid?

There are no easy answers here, is the point I am making. I watched a talk show not that long ago on abusive kids who hit their parents and call them horrid names. The answer seems to be, from the kid... "She didn't give me what I wanted, so I cussed at her or I hit her." *shrugs* These parents seem to be completely ineffectual, as if they are afraid of the children.

It used to be the other way around, healthy respectful fear of parents? (talking about a normal home here).

If you have a child that gives you relative respect and you haven't had to go through this, thank someone or thing. I can only imagine that it is a nightmare.
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Postby IrisBrandybuck » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:03 am

what she said. :)

There are many, many, many reasons...it's amazing the number of parents who just don't care! Rob's ex-wife is one of those...I could just pound her sometimes. :( there's a family, the kids are all adults now (40s and up, 12 of 'em) who "just growed."

:(

:hihi: rhwen. What's on the plate today?
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Postby GwenElf » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:11 am

I was spanked a few times when I was a kid, but as Iris noted, the "mom look" usually sufficed--and when it didn't, pulling out the "spanking spoon" did the trick. ;) I agree that it should be used as a last resort and never done in the heat of the moment, but I also think that the idea of "child abuse" has been completely overblown in some ways lately--maybe they aren't true, but I've heard stories of parents spanking their children and then being hauled into court for it, when they were just trying to discipline their children. Obviously child abuse is a serious issue and needs to be handled with care, but wow...


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Postby rwhen » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:19 am

Hi Iris. Well on the plate is working from a different computer today as mine is a mess, which we have our IT/tech to thank for that. He was trying to fix some update and instead disabled all my computer functions. :P

So I am working from a different desk and I don't like it preciousssss. No I don't. Me wants my lovely puter back again.

Sil, there isn't a B & J's in Vancouver, but I wish that I could go to one. I visited the B & J's factory in Vermont oh about 15 years ago and had the very best time. :D They don't make my favorite any longer, it is in the ice cream graveyard and that was Wavy Gravy.

What is your favorites? (that is a question to all)

On Spanking. *sigh* I am pretty old school and a whack on the rear can get attention. For those who can't control themselves as a parent I think it is a dangerous road to start down. And you don't know what sort of parent you will be until you are one. Taking care of others children is no benchmark for how one will be with their own.

My mother was pretty abusive and thankfully none of us kids seem to have done any damage to offspring. The verbal thing needs some help and that can be as bad as physical I think. But a smack on the rear? If the kid understands from a young age (meaning 2 or 3) that violent, disrespectful, uncooperative behaviour will not be tolerated, I THINK they are more likely to not grow up to be that way with a parent or others.

If a kid gets away with abuse towards a parent, imagine how they would treat others.

;) two cents.
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Postby rowanberry » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:54 am

I think that in many cases, parents just don't know how to act to discipline a child without physical punishment. In the past, children were beaten to obedience for so long that now when it isn't acceptable any longer, people don't have any idea what they should do with a misbehaving child. So, they do nothing. :|
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Postby rwhen » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:03 pm

It sure is possible, Rowan. I do think that in many cases, kids are just much more openly hostile to their parents than we would have ever dreamed of being to ours. I should think that many parents would just be so taken back that they wouldn't know what to do and then you have a monster on your hands.

I can't imagine what it would be like to be a parent who is afraid of their own kid. :(

Anyway....that heliona sure knows how to make us wait, eh? :D
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Postby rowanberry » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:20 pm

Yes, she sure does. She posted under another ID on the Events forum. :D

Well, it's said that it takes the whole village to raise a child. Maybe that kind of "villages" just don't exist any longer, and everybody's just left fending for themselves. I me mine... :(
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Postby Storyteller » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:47 pm

rowanberry wrote:Well, it's said that it takes the whole village to raise a child. Maybe that kind of "villages" just don't exist any longer, and everybody's just left fending for themselves. I me mine... :(

I think it has to do with our societies generally becoming more individualistic, and the importance of family as one's basic and most natural support structure has diminished. I remember starting a Manwe thread about it once, and the reactions were rather baffling.

Also, GwenElf has a point about child abuse being defined far too "inclusively" at times. I don't approve of spanking generally (although many commonly used non-physical ways of disciplining a child are far more damaging in the long run than a gentle slap on the rear), but important as child abuse issue is, it shouldn't be overblown into an adult-hating campaign.
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Postby IrisBrandybuck » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:54 pm

Sorry I went AWOL for a while...left work early to take the cat to the vet...that's what was on my plate. :D Stopped at Goodwill and got 3 shirts for 29 cents each...two for Rob and one for me.
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Postby rwhen » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:17 pm

Iris, hope the kitty is all better now and :clap: on the great buy!! I love to find a great deal.

Storyteller, I agree with you as well. While we all care about child abuse, we have to take caution not to pigeon hole parents who are doing a great job with a kid that takes advantage of that.
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Postby RoseMorninStar » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:29 pm

Ent/Minty.... John Locke, eh?? Nature/nurture.. tabula rasa.. etc..., etc.. ;)

I *DO* think that some children are inherently more difficult to raise. Some children are more inquisitive. Some have undiagnosed learning issues that manifest as frustration, anger, acting out. I have first hand experience with that. Some of our greatest inventors were difficult/troubled children. I do think parenting well takes an extreme amount of patience, experience, and time that many just do not have.

Helen Keller, whom no one knew how to reach and so she was allowed to do pretty much as she chose to do.. was an enormous tyrant and brat. Her behavior changed dramatically when she was able to communicate.

Some children (and adults as well for that matter!) need to channel their negative behaviors/energies into talents. For example.. someone who is bossy.. if it is channeled right & given the opportunities.. those same negative qualities might become excellent leadership skills. From what I have heard of Elijah Wood.. he was a handful as a child, so his parents channeled that energy into acting & put him in commercials & plays. Even very intelligent children.. if they are not challenged become troublemakers.

I hate to compare children to dogs, but if you have ever watched 'dog whisperer' the animals are often trainable.. most often it is the OWNER who needs to be taught to follow-through on consistent behavior so that the animal knows what to expect if their behavior is not what it should be.

Gwen Elf.. I know that 'mom' look! :D

rwhen.. I agree. I don't mean that children don't need discipline.. but discipline doesn't require a beating in most cases (if any). I grew up in an abusive household as well and I think my fathers beatings had more to do with his anger (and his inability to control his anger) than anything one of us kids did wrong. We were pretty darn good kids. I think what is most important, and what most people fail to do, is to be CONSISTENT. If something is unacceptable, say so.. and have consequences. AND FOLLOW THROUGH on those consequences. Too often parents say something they are not willing to follow through with and so the threat of 'discipline' means nothing to the kids.

My 2 cents ... or maybe a little more. ;)
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Postby earendil81 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:29 pm

I know the "mom look" too and it was usually enough. But I did get some spanking as a kid and once as a young adult (and I deserved it really). For me it was not so much the pain but rather the humiliation of having done something so bad that my mom or dad had to use spanking to punish me.

I do believe that "physical punishment" should be used as a last resort; however I remember also the first time ever I bit my brother. My mom saw it took my arm and said "what if I did it to you" and put her mouth on my arms biting ever so slightly. Really not bad but it made me realise that biting was bad. I was what 5 I think and very jealous of my brother getting all the attention :P :P :P.

And I do agree with you rwhen when you say that people are not involved in their kids' lives. My mum's a teacher and she could have decided that after a day at school she would feel better just not to look after other kids even though they were her own. She never did. She was always helping us with our work; she would put limits on things.
After school she would allow us 30 minutes of TV not more, then work and then some family games so that we would be involved with our parents and sometimes our minds too. We would play trivial pursuit (jr version) or clue or something to engage our brains. And after dinner we would read for 30 minutes altogether and share what we had read, whether it was a comic book, the newspaper or "real books" (fairy tales, novels...)

I have extremely fond memories of this and I definitely intend to try and do the same thing with my kids. Maybe not to the same results, but my dad always said that he saw his job as a father to raise a man or a woman who could walk by themselves. It does not really translate well in English ;).
At the time though, computers were not so invasive of our lives ;)
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Postby heliona » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:42 pm

Okay, this is weird. My landmark post is about childhood. :)

And I've been busy, honestly! I've had to knuckle down with studying recently.

I think that there is a difference between spanking and beating. A spank is a one-off short, sharp shock to the system, and should never be done in anger. People who advocate reasoning with a child who is out of control I guess have never had children. Because seriously? Reasoning with a rioting 3 year old is really going to work. :roll: At least not with any 3 year old that I know. :D I was smacked as a child, but I always knew it was coming because I knew I'd done something wrong. I always deserved it. =:) And my mother was the one to do it. My father never smacked me, apart from on one occasion when I didn't deserve. It was out of anger, and it hurt, but I knew I'd not done anything wrong, and it was obvoius that he was incredibly sorry about it and the fact that my mother saw it happened and told him off made me feel better too. And hey, I turned out all right. :D Most of my friends at university had a smack or two as a child, and none of them are raving angry violent people. It's all about control.

Rose, I agree with you in some respects with the dog/child comparision, but I think a dog's intelligence can be slightly higher than a very young child's. ;):D At least, they catch on to things more quickly. :lol:

PS: I thought this was the PCE thread? :?
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Postby RoseMorninStar » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:06 am

eari.. you sound like you have a wise mother. ;)

Hello helonia! Nice to see you! I hope the studying isn't too onerous!

PCE.. erm.... yeah.. my PCE is taking a little break... so much going on right now... :P
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Postby rowanberry » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:53 am

Well, the PCE thread is just about anything and everything, as long as the discussion doesn't slip into Manwë mood, right? :D

And, Heliona, go and make those two missing posts!
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Postby IrisBrandybuck » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:40 am

Turned out alright Heliona? I'm not sure about that, after all you talk to "elves," "hobbits," "ents," "orcs"...really, maybe you should have that checked into.

:P

Sorry, I couldn't help myself!!!
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Postby heliona » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:05 am

:lol: Well, my dad's just the same, so that bit must be genetic. :D

The studying's not too bad, I'm now knuckling down and it's satisfying being able to tick things off. :) But I'll be happy once the exams are over.

Only one more to go! ;)
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Postby rwhen » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:40 am

Good day all PCE heads.

I want to say thank you for all the comments large or small and for not getting to personal or offended by what any other wrote. Maybe we can set the example for Manwe, it CAN be done. :D

That said, heliona I will post to your new thread today, but it does take some thinking about, not just throwing up anything at all. Good idea for a 5,000 post.

And congrats on reaching marination!! :hug:

Way ta go :thumbsup:

Rose, what has got you so busy besides the phone calling??? Miss you. :D

Iris, good point. :P There are none of us who post on this site that aren't a tad bit touched, I think.

Rowan, you are probably already leaving for dance class or about to. Enjoy and hope to see you when you return.

Eari, how are the wedding plans coming???

:hihi: to everyone...must get the guys working this morning.
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Postby IrisBrandybuck » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:42 am

If you want , rwhen, I can verbally beat you up, but I'd really rather not. I think in talk it's just better to agree to disagree. :)

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IrisBrandybuck
I can't brain today. I have the dumb.

 
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Postby rwhen » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:51 am

IrisBrandybuck wrote:If you want , rwhen, I can verbally beat you up, but I'd really rather not. I think in talk it's just better to agree to disagree. :)

:hug: for everyone! :happydance:



You can try... ;) :hug:
Love is as big or as little as a hug!!

vison! Alex!Rowanberry!OldToby

I will always treasure and remember your appreciation. Thank you. -2007 WCA's
Overwhelmed by your support and appreciation. Thank you. - 2008 WCA's

The Expected Party!! is now on the road to Gondor to celebrate. Join us.

And getting into trouble with Rally The Eldar.

Time out of Mind, forever bound to my Knight Ayslhyn

Vanadarlin', my SSOTH - 143 forever :hug:
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rwhen
Gettin' Older!!

 
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Postby Vanaladiel » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:39 am

I think the topic at issue is actually the difference between discipline and abuse. I know that there are some children who need a tough love approach taken on but most children will respond with less drastic measures.

I am sorry but if a child runs out into the street I will paddle their backside. The reason being is that it is dangerous and they need to have that impressed upon them so they do not doing it again. Or for putting something into an electrical outlet. These are very serious issues that must be impressed upon the child so they understand that it will hurt them much worse then they can imagine. I do not mean to beat a child but you must get their attention about how serious the offense is and the consequence of doing so.

Now I did slap my daughter once. But only once. She mouthed off to me one day and I do not remember what she said but it was almost an instantaneous response. She never spoke to me that way again. It got her attention and it was her mouth that was offensive that day.

But usually all I had to do was talk to her. She is a great kid/adult. We managed to be good friends who valued each others opinions on things. I still do!

To give you an idea about how we would talk...... she came to me when she was 14 and had a steady boyfriend and informed me that she thought she was ready for a sexual relationship with him. :Q I was so glad that I was busy folding laundry and she was behind me. My jaw I know it the floor!! I took a deep breath and explained to her that I would listen to her reasons if she would then let me explain why I thought she might want to wait. She told me what she was feeling and why and then I went on to tell her that he was getting ready to get out of high school and was planning on going on to college. I told her about how colleges have parties and that when one drinks at some of these events they might do things they normally would not or that he might meet someone who he felt attracted too. I explained how you can only give yourself to someone special the very first time and that she might want to save that for the man whom she chooses to marry and keep it very special. I was willing, though I thought I would choke to death from it, her decision for what she was going to.... she thought about it a few minutes and then said "I think I will wait!"

Turned out the guy ended up cheating on her as I figured he would. She was crushed by it but that is life. Her girlfriends found out she talked to me about sex and they all stated "You talked to your mom about sex and you are still alive?" "Your mom is so cool!!" :roflmbo: Her friends started coming to me to talk after that. :D

Kids just need to know that they can say things and not be punished for thinking things through. They need direction without the fear of consequence all the time. Open the communication and make it alright to talk it out and they will be open and honest about things. Kids want direction but who can they feel safe going to? Hopefully their parents because their friends might not have the right answer they need but faulty information if they didn't get it from a good source.

Sorry I took it off topic again!!! :whistle:

So what were we doing anyways??? :D :angel:
Image Spring come quickly!!
~*Sister of the Twilight*~
~*Daughter of the Moon*~

Inyë melmëlyë my love, for you are the melody to which I now dance!!

Bearer of "Elen~Uial"
The Moon Ring of the Twilight Star

Bard of the land of Eryn Lasgalen

Mithril Knight of Lore
Mithril Knight of Eryn Lasgalen

Lifetime Award 2010

We mourn the loss of another wonderful man from TORC! oldtoby we will always remember you and your wit and smile! Love you my friend! RIP 1/20/18

Always in our memories, vison :rose:, Alex :rose:, Rowanberry :rose: and Watcher :rose:! Our world is a little dimmer without your smiles!

A tribute to Cynthia 11/14/2005 :rose:

For my dad who now resides with the Lord! :rose: 05/11/16 I love you daddy and will see you again someday in Glory!

TORC 365 project
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Vanaladiel
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Postby GwenElf » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:27 am

I thought we were talking about salmon, and the I realized I'd clicked on the Foodie thread by mistake. Incidentally, I love salmon. ;)


My mom and I went through a rough patch when I was in my early teens, as I suspect happens a lot, but overall we have a great relationship (I'm talking to her on AIM right now :D), and I've gotten the "Your mom is so cool!" comment more than once, too, though I don't think any of my friends have gone to her for advice!


...yeah, now I'm craving salmon. Whoops. :P
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GwenElf
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Postby RoseMorninStar » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:37 am

rwhen wrote:
Rose, what has got you so busy besides the phone calling??? Miss you. :D

Mica is home for Spring break. I was at her school for 2 days moving her.. and then she brought a bunch of stuff home that needed washed/stored/put away. Then she had her wisdom teeth removed which took almost all of yesterday, and the day before we shopped for things that she will be able to eat over the next few days. I STILL haven't gotten to the rest of my phone calls.. I have a ton of other stuff to do.. housework seems to have fallen way behind in the last week. I gots catching up to do! I think my cold turned into bronchitis, and that slowed me down.. although I am feeling better.
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Postby rwhen » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:45 am

Hi hon, I just asked Mica on FB to give you a hug from me. Sounds like you are up to your eyeballs in it. Hope it is all good. And you have Mica home for the spring break. Sweet. :D

Vanadarlin' thanks for your comments too. Very reasonable and we know that everyone is different and everyone has to make their own choices and I think as parents in the end, we just hope that we did it well.

I would bet you are a "cool mother" as is Rose and all mom's of TORC.

Sil. You can come here and I will feed you all of MY salmon. :D:D
Love is as big or as little as a hug!!

vison! Alex!Rowanberry!OldToby

I will always treasure and remember your appreciation. Thank you. -2007 WCA's
Overwhelmed by your support and appreciation. Thank you. - 2008 WCA's

The Expected Party!! is now on the road to Gondor to celebrate. Join us.

And getting into trouble with Rally The Eldar.

Time out of Mind, forever bound to my Knight Ayslhyn

Vanadarlin', my SSOTH - 143 forever :hug:
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rwhen
Gettin' Older!!

 
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Postby earendil81 » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:38 pm

Vana, Amen to every word you said ;) ;)

Rwhen, plans are coming along not too bad... Bus is finally confirmed.
I put my mum and my sister to find the BM's dresses since my two friends from Montreal won't be coming. And my mum said "I can't believe you've been trying to do that for 6 months, it is so hard." I was laughing my head off :lol:. Yep right. She did not have to worry about it for her wedding though because in France one really does not care about what the witnesses wear. It is something we do for my darling one ;) ;). I could not care less if they came in jeans (then I know they would not do such a thing :P) really ;) ;)

My beloved is now on boot camp mode and I fearfully expect the moment he is going to hit me with it. I actually do need a little bit of pushing right now, as I have no willpower to go to the gym or the swimming pool. Haven't set a foot at the gym in 2 months and the swimming pool in 3 weeks :roll: :roll:... I feel lazy :lol: :lol:
Never forgetting those who have passed into the West :rose:

Sharing a story with Rholarowyn: Once There Were Words

Laesha is taking her first steps in the RP world with Eilathen and a bunch of great characters in The Expected Party
Fan of Redemption: the Reckoning

Who can say if I've been changed for the better?
But because I knew you
I have been changed for good.


It's funny how some distance
Makes everything seem small
And the fears that once controlled me
Can't get to me at all
It's time to see what I can do
To test the limits and break through
No right, no wrong, no rules for me
I'm free
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earendil81
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