M-E & Tolkien Trivia (Continuation thread)

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Postby -Rómestámo- » Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:07 pm

Sorry <strong>Saradoc</strong>, I am after a specific pairing, mentioned or alluded to by JRRT.
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Postby Canamarth » Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:17 am

Was that Sam and Gollum?
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Postby Tulkas_The_Valiant » Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:25 am

I don't think I have the proper resource with me.<BR><BR>There is one bit in the Tempest that very specifically reminded me of a passage in the Hobbit.<BR><BR>Tempest (Summary)<BR><em>Stefano, Trinculo, and Caliban are now drunk and raucous and are made all the more so by Ariel, who comes to them invisibly and provokes them to fight with one another by impersonating their voices and taunting them.</em><BR><BR>This reminds of when Gandalf taunts Bill, Tom and Bert, setting them to fight amongst themselves until dawn.<BR><BR>I wouldn't usually make an attempt without text proof, but this seemed a very close relationship.
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Postby XXIluvatarXX » Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:55 am

If this is in People of Middle-Earth, I'm going to murder someone. I just ordered the book, and it arrived recently. Now, since I really have a very vague (sp) idea of who these people are, I will have to search blindly.
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Postby scirocco » Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:27 am

Congratulations on getting PoME, <strong>XXIluvatarXX</strong>, but don't look in there. Instead, check out <strong>Canamarth</strong>'s answer and then look at the character list in this link to <a href='http://www.awerty.com/tempest2.html' target=_blank><em>The Tempest</em></a>.<BR><BR>Not one of Tolkien's better similies, IMHO. Frodo I can see as Prospero, Gollum as Caliban, but Sam as Ariel? I ask you!
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Postby Canamarth » Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:13 am

I take that as confirmation, scirocco. I've read it somewhere but only remembered dimly. I know it didn't make too much sense to me then either.<BR><BR><strong>What fenced Elendil's garden in Númenor at its western end?</strong>
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Postby scirocco » Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:38 am

<strong>Canamarth</strong>, yes, you are right, but <strong>Romestamo</strong>, my apologies, I wasn't trying to pre-empt your confirmation (just didn't want to see <strong>XXluvatarXX</strong> off on a wild goose chase when the right answer was already up.)
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Postby -Rómestámo- » Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:39 am

Strictly speaking, the answer was not "Sam and Gollum" but "Gollum and Sam" <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> .<BR><BR>In <strong>Letter 64</strong>, JRRT writes <em>On the whole Sam is behaving well, and living up to repute. He treats Gollum rather like Ariel to Caliban. ....</em>
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Postby Canamarth » Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:44 am

<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0> Sorry. <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby XXIluvatarXX » Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:39 pm

Here's my guess: Paladun; it means, literally, "West fence". I am losing my mind. I just need to get one right, because I have about 3 REALLY good questions. Oh well. I will go and look some more.
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Postby -Rómestámo- » Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:05 am

The western fence of Elendil's garden in Numénor (as envisaged by JRRT in the 1930's) was a great hedge of <em>lavaralda</em> more than eighty-four years old that Elendil had planted from seeds that had come from Eressëa.
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Postby Canamarth » Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:45 am

Your question, Rómestámo.
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Postby -Rómestámo- » Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:01 am

Thanks <strong>Canamarth</strong> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> .<pre> -------------------------</pre>Plumbing new depths of obscurity...<UL><em>Þara wæs Hloðuig sum, hæleða dyrost,<BR>brad ond beorhtword, cuþe he</em>...<BR><BR>('One of them was Hlothwig [...] )</UL>In JRRT's recorded writings, <strong>Who was Hloðuig</strong> (Hlothwig)?
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Postby -Rómestámo- » Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:37 am

Perhaps including another line might help...<UL>[...] <em>searoþancolra snyttru gehierdon.<BR>Þara wæs Hloðuig sum, hæleða dyrost,<BR>brad ond beorhtword, cuþe he...</em></UL>
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Postby Saradoc » Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:41 am

Personally, divergence from ME turns me off and I usually do not answer even though I can look up the question. It's clear it must be Beowulf, <em>Sir Gawain</em>, the Pearl or Sir Orfeo but ...<BR><BR>We really should start a non-ME Tolkien trivia thread.
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Postby -Rómestámo- » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:20 am

<strong>Saradoc</strong> :<em>It's clear it must be Beowulf, Sir Gawain, the Pearl or Sir Orfeo but ...</em><BR><BR>It's not <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> .<BR><BR>Today's hints should give it away...<BR><BR>Completing the first line:<UL><em>Hwæt! We Inclinga on ærdagum searoþancolra snyttru gehierdon.<BR>[...]<BR>Þara wæs Hloðuig sum, hæleða dyrost,<BR>brad ond beorhtword, cuþe he...</em><BR><BR>'Lo! we have heard in old days of the wisdom of the cunning minded Inclinga; how those wise ones sat together in their deliberations, skilfully reciting learning and song-craft, earnestly meditating. That was true joy!<BR>[...]<BR>One of them was Hlothwig [...]'</UL>'recorded' does not necessarily mean 'published by' (even posthumously).<BR><BR>[And I've amended the thread title to better reflect the reality - so now it is both <em>de jure</em> as well as <em>de facto</em> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>].
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Postby Eluchil » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:36 am

Thank you Romestamo. Hlothwig is, of course Lewis (C.S.). The poem is quoted in one of Humphrey Catrpenter's books either Biography of the Inklings.
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Postby -Rómestámo- » Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:02 am

Your question <strong>Eluchil</strong> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> .<pre> -------------------------</pre><UL><em> Hwæt! We Inclinga on ærdagum searoþancolra snyttru gehierdon.</em><BR>[...]<BR><em>Þara wæs Hloðuig sum, hæleða dyrost,<BR>brad ond beorhtword, cuþe he...</em><BR><BR>'Lo! we have heard in old days of the wisdom of the cunning minded Inklings; how those wise ones sat together in their deliberations, skilfully reciting learning and song-craft, earnestly meditating. That was true joy!<BR>[...]<BR>One of them was Hlothwig, dearest of men, <BR>broad and bright of word; he knew...'</UL>'Hlothwig' was the Anglo-saxon form of the Germanic name from which 'Lewis' was ultimately derived.<BR><BR>It is printed in <em>The Inklings</em> by Humphrey Carpenter (1978).
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Postby Eluchil » Sat Mar 20, 2004 2:49 pm

Keeping with the Anglo-Saxon theme, which cities did Tolkien refer to as <em>Stángaldorburg</em>?
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Postby Saradoc » Sat Mar 20, 2004 2:53 pm

-Rome- must be nice *Modding* your way out of the ME Trivia Thread restriction<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-devil.gif"border=0> But, hey, now its all fair game.
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Postby Cathryn » Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:42 am

Just guessing based on a possible meaning of that phrase (and the language it is in), but maybe Orthanc, Minas Anor, Minas Ithil and Osgiliath?<BR>Probably not right, but I might as well try.
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Postby XXIluvatarXX » Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:18 am

Hi Cathryn! No, I don't know the answer for sure, bu I will guess Edoras, for the same reasons.
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Postby scirocco » Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:00 am

I have to agree that Minas Morgul would seem to be the obvious choice. However, when Old English/M.E. equivalences come up (if they're not Rohirrim-related) it's often to do with the translations Tolkien made of the <em>Quenta Noldorinwa</em>, <em>Annals of Beleriand</em> and <em>Annals of Valinor</em> into O.E. (These can be found in Vol 4 of the <em>History of Middle-earth</em> series, <em>The Shaping of Middle-earth</em>.)<BR><BR>So in the Appendix to the translation of the <em>Quenta Noldorinwa</em>, which gives a list of the Old English equivalents of Elvish names, you find both Gondolin and Nargothrond translated as <em>stangaldorburg</em>, "stone-spell-city".<BR><BR>There may be others, so I'll wait for confirmation from <strong>Eluchil</strong> (my favourite mod at the moment) <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Eluchil » Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:23 am

Those are the only two of which I am aware, scirocco; great work! Your question.<BR><BR>I am note sure why Tolkien used the name for Nargothrond; Folgenburg seems much more appropriate to be the twice used name, but I shan't worry about it.
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Postby scirocco » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:19 pm

Thanks <strong>Eluchil</strong>.<BR><BR><strong>The dragon came from the ends of the earth, over the Blue Mountains, to the coastal town, where he killed at least four people before setting the town in flames. What was the name of the town?</strong>
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Postby -Rómestámo- » Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:44 pm

<em>The dragon came from the ends of the earth, over the Blue Mountains, to the coastal town</em>[...]<BR><BR>The 'ends of the earth' (Finis-terre) can be found in Galicia (Spain) or in Papua and New Guinea, whereas the Blue Mountains are in New South Wales, Jamaica, Oregon or Canada (amongst others)... While Sydney richly deserves being swept with flames <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> , the town in question is on an eponymous bay and is near Bumpus Head and Trimble (which sadly, rules Sydney out <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> ).<BR><BR>Still looking... <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby XXIluvatarXX » Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:03 pm

Well, there are only three towns on the coastal side of the Blue Mountains, and I don't think The Grey Havens were torched, so I will say <strong>Forlond</strong>, and to cover myself, maybe <strong>Harlond</strong>.
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Postby Saradoc » Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:41 pm

This sounds like Chrysophylax Dives in the city where the Parson lives. Unfortunately the name of the town escapes me (I do not think it was Ham, but some other village).
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Postby XXIluvatarXX » Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:03 pm

I don't believe that Chrysophalax actually did burn any towns, and the writing was much more lighthearted than that anyway.
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Postby scirocco » Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:16 pm

"Finis-terre" is certainly correct for the dragon's origin.... I can only agree with <strong>Romestamo</strong> about Sydney... Still waiting for the name of the town, though.<BR><BR>Neither Forlond nor Harlond are correct. And Chrysophylax is not known to have crossed the Blue Mountains <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR><em>Hint:</em> You will need <em>The Hobbit</em>, (but not just any <em>Hobbit</em>). <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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