Silmarillion Swooning

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Postby Aranis » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:16 am

Hello anuhealani... :) .......I will take your advice. :wink:

I have never been too keen on Beren. I think that is a little unfortunate, as he was such an important character to Tolkien. I am not sure what it is that I 'don't warm to...but I think I prefer Barahir to his son! He isn't silly or anything....but Lúthien has to confront Morgoth and rescue him. ummm...not quite there with him. I sort of like Tuor....he is almost swoon worthy. but a bit simplistic and 'nice' in character for me.
But Finrod Felagund, I have to agree is very deserving. I also find it awful that this great Elf dies in a pit defending Beren from a werewolf. :( I love the part where he strives with Sauron in songs of power...but unfortunately Sauron overcomes even Finrod.....too sad!

I have looked at some of Ezpeleta's paintings, and although they are interesting, and well done..I do not personally relate them to Silmarillion characters. They do not look at all how I imagine them to look. But each to their own....
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Postby Aurelin » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:05 pm

*waves to Wilma and Aranis* Nice to meet you! :)

Just keep telling yourself that. That's what I do. And I still swoon.

Yeah, Fėanor is the one that I think I will actually swoon for when hell freezes! I really hated him when I first read Sil and though I have mellowed a bit towards him (and that mainly because of his sons), I still really dislike him a lot.

Beren and Tuor are the Secondborn I think I like of the 1st Age stories, for some reason Rian too (and not Morwen) but otherwise I am an Elf-girl. Tuor is a bit too nice to be true, I agree but I for me part of the appeal is the possible changing of his Doom and later, after reading the Fall of Gondolin in Lost Tales, I also became to appreciate him more.
Anu - Luthien does indeed seem to me like the head of the family too. And the connection of Beren-Luthien/JRR-Edith has a lot to do with my love for that story and its players.

:cry: for Finrod. It does seem place-and-way wise an unfit end to such an Elf. But at least he was able to be reborn and reunited with his father and Amariė.


:roll: Aurelin :roll:
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Postby anuhealani » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:18 pm

Aurelin wrote:Yeah, Fėanor is the one that I think I will actually swoon for when hell freezes! I really hated him when I first read Sil and though I have mellowed a bit towards him (and that mainly because of his sons), I still really dislike him a lot.

And I loved him from the beginning because he's so insufferable. As I was telling the Fazgûl earlier, Faramir is really an odd person for me to be such a fan of because he's so good. The ones I love the most are the ones most people want to throw out the window. I think Celegorm is actually my favorite son of Fëanor. See what I mean? See also the problem-child in my sig, aka Anu's #1 Swoon. ;)

Thanks for bringing up the Beren/JRR Lúthien/Edith connection, Aurelin. That *is* one aspect of their story that I get really swoony over. :) My SO thinks it's so corny that it's on their tombstones. I think it's beautiful.

Okay, all right...sw :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D n for Beren...
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Postby Aranis » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:16 pm

anuhealani wrote:

And I loved him from the beginning because he's so insufferable.

definately. :roll:
..and he is a lot of other things too.!

Hello Aurelin..*waves and smiles* Nice to meet you too.
I suppose I feel guilty about not really liking Beren because of the Tolkien / Edith love story..
I feel I 'owe' it to Tolkien...
and the names on the tombstones is sooo beautiful..imho.... :)

I console myself over the tragedy of Finrod that he is back in Aman with his Father and beloved....and that is a happy ending..so I can cope. :)

I know that it is not the Silmarillion..but it is still about the Silmarillion characters.. if I may, I would like to add that I feel quite a lot of angst over Aegnor and Andreth in the 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth'..torn apart over their love ....
'For one year, one day, of the flame I would have given all: kin, youth, and hope itself: adaneth I am,' said Andreth.
( Morgoth's Ring)

that is so sad...and then he gets killed..and she dies..and it is sad... :(

got to stop writing now..going to cry.
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Postby None_Elf_Ear » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:43 am

Decided to eventually write a long post myself, but I am highly afraid that the time will not afford me. I shakll try, though my next lecture starts in less than 15 minutes.

This swooning thread is a wonderful place for me, as I have already mentioned. I really have to read Silmarillion (for the 4th time :roll: ), but this only after finishing the re-reading of ROTK. Then I'll start the detailed study over them which I was planning to do for a long time.

My biggest sadness is that I do not own, now have access to HoME. It was a true chance for me to find and buy BoLT II, this summer, and I own it proudly and merrily. But I need more, more to know, about the customs of the Elves I am so fond of ... *sigh* No way.

Well, Finrod. It is the one from Finarfin's family whom I am most fond of, indeed. For his solitary life, for his love for the caves, for his friendship with the Gnomes and for being so valiant and having such a tragical death. Thinking that he found his love again makes me breathe easier, as I consider that he suffered enough during his life on ME.

Now I sadly have to end the post (told you !) but I shall come back tomorrow and write more. See you !
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Postby Aurelin » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:18 am

When on the topic of the Luthien-Beren thing, when reading the Letters, I came upon one of the most moving quotes (Letter no. 332):
"... - and only 5 years later I met the Lúthien Tinúviel of my own personal "romance" with her long dark hair, fair face and starry eyes, and beautiful voice. [...] But now shehas gone before Beren, leaving him indeed one-handed, but he has no power to move the inexorable Mandos, and there is no Dor Gyrth i chuinar, the Land of the Dead that Live, in this Fallen Kingdom of Arda, where the servants of Morgoth are worshipped."


The story of Aegnor and Andreth is one that makes me really emotional too, Aranis. It is indeed sadder than Luthien-Beren since they at least went together to face the fate of Men and might be together again someday or in some way, but there is no such thing for Aegnor and Andreth.

None, :( I feel for you, the HoMe is filled with wondrous things. But maybe someday and somehow you will be able to get your hands on them!

Yeah, Finrod is my fav out of the house of Finarfin too and Turgon of Fingolfin's and Maedhros from Fėanor's.


:roll: Aurelin :roll:
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Postby Donisiliel » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:31 pm

Hi, Aranis and None! :D Aranis, feel free to discuss or swoon for other characters from the histories of Middle-earth that may not have been specifically mentioned in the Sil. I still consider them to fit the category since they did live in the same time frame.

I like Beren. In a way I can relate to his falling in love with an Elf and his initial dispair when she escaped him. (For me, it is a love of Middle-earth and the Elves in general that is bittersweet since of course all this is make-believe.) I wish Tolkien had written more about the perils Beren suffered crossing the mountains to Doriath. I love the story of how Beren and Luthien first met; it is so romantic and at the same time touched with sorrow as a portent of the griefs to come for them.

I do not mind Finrod's manner of death. I greatly admire his love and loyalty to Beren. The fact that he died for Beren is a beautiful and tragic end. I tend to be most touched by the sad tales.

Aurelin, that is a lovely and sad quote from the Letters. I need to buy that book. The only reason that I haven't got it yet is that it is only published in paperback anymore and I really would like it in hardcover. In order to find a hardcover, though, I'll need to look at the used bookstores.

While we're on the subject of Fëanor, I'd better weigh in with my opinion. Let me say I like him and I don't like him. I like him for what he might have been. As the greatest of all the Noldor, he had the pontential to do great things. Well, he still did great things, but because of his pride, all the good that he brought about eventually turned to ruin. If he could have been more humble, his works I'm sure would have had an effect of much more lasting good. As he turned out, though, his selfishness and pride caused great strife among the Noldor, as well as between the Noldor and the Valar. His stealing and later burning of the ships was for me the most shocking and appalling of his actions. I did feel bad for him that he should meet his death so soon after reaching Middle-earth. And lastly, I do like him for the fact that of all the Elves, he and his house had the greatest impact on all the history if Middle-earth (I suppose that's not exactly liking him so much as having an appreciation for history). After all, the work of the history of ME is named after his creation.

So, you ask, why is your alliance to his house?

I guess it's because I'm still fascinated by the story of the Fëanorians. I like tragic stories, and their tale is quite sad. I have my own struggles with pride and so can somewhat understand the motivations of Fëanor (although that is not to say I approve of his actions). I do like some of the sons of Fëanor, namely Maedhros and Maglor. The twins are not to bad, either. However, Celegorm and Curufin are especially dreadful.

SW :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: N for Maedhros because at least here I won't be chastised for doing so. My friends and sister are trying to convince me that he's not worthy of liking.

~Doni

EDIT: Aurelin, I keep forgetting to tell you that I love your sig pic. It's very sad because it's so beautiful and gruesome at the same time. Poor Fingon. :'( *sniff*
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Postby None_Elf_Ear » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:50 am

Aurelin, the quote from the Letters was touching indeed, thank you :cry:

I usuallt tell my beloved all the things I find out about Tolkien and his wife, and we like to cherish their story as a model. Unfortunately, the same problem : not even seen the Letters here, in Romania, were they in hard or soft cover :(

All right. What were you saying ?

From my Alliance, the House of Fingolfin, I am most fond of the White Lady, namely Aredhel, the daughter of Fingon, and of Idril Celebrimbal, who gave her heart to Tuor and they sailed together to the unknown, the daughter of Turgon the brave.

From the House of Feanor, I like Nerdanel. Though there is not too much said about her, something makes me cherish her a lot. For her wise behaviour, for her power to understand Feanor and even to make him peaceful, to quench his fire sometimes. I also have to think more about their sons, and tell you more after this.

From Finarfin's House, I like Finrod the Faithful and sometimes Galadriel the most. You shall see why just sometimes.
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Postby anuhealani » Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:45 am

Aranis, yes, the story of Aegnor and Andreth is sooooo terribly sad. It's wonderful. I also like that it's fairly well-hidden from would-be Mary Sue writers, as mortal maid / Elf-lord is just too-tempting fodder for awful fanfic. ;)

Doni, you really hit on it. The Fëanorians are fascinating, if largely loathsome. I suppose I just have no patience for those one-dimensional types!

So where does my allegiance lie? Well, my alliance is usually Angband because I figure that's where my RL friends and family might categorize me, anyway. :twisted: Look for it to change temporarily to the House of Hador next month...which is where I usually want to stick myself. But as I am far too indecisive to ever stick with one...

In the House of Fëanor, I like Celegorm and Fëanor himself best. Though I do find myself getting rather Maglorish now and then...

In the House of Fingolfin, I like Maeglin best, and in fact he is my favorite Elf of all time. I think I could write a million-page essay on the complexity of his character. If you don't want to count him since he's half Dark Elf, then I'd have to go with Fingon. I know, you're thinking "but he's so NICE, anu!" I don't know what's the matter with me there. :)

I really can't say I like the House of Finarfin all that much. My favorite of all of them is easily Finduilas (Faelivrin). For completely impartial reasons. :angel:
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Postby Aurelin » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:01 pm

I wish Tolkien had written more about the perils Beren suffered crossing
the mountains to Doriath.

Yes, me too. It would add more to his character since considering how he changed so in appearance by the horrors, those had to be really horrible and coming out of that would disperse somewhat the need-Luthien-to-save-me image.

Doni, I hope you will find the hardcover edition. I have only Sil and LOTR and the Hobbit in hardcover since the price difference is so big between paperback and hardcover that I found it a waste of money to get hardcover when I can have the paperback.

With Fėanor in my mind the awful deeds to tend to drive away from my mind the good in him but I do remind myself of it now. In a way it is sad that this happened to him and a lot of that was due to Miriel's choice, therefore lesser his own fault. Fėanor was too like his mother, I think. After reading Morgoth's Ring, Finwė came off as the more composed of the two and one more yieldy and less proud.
I think that what JRR is trying to show us with Fėanor is the old - to those who have been given a lot, can turn more easily and do more damage than an average person would. The threats of greatness.

Thanks, the Fingon pic was very moving and made me even more feel for Fingon since from the Sil for me he came off rather boring and grey but the artwork I have seen in recent months made me rethink that.

Aredhel I for some reason never could like. Idril I started really to like after reading the Fall of Gondolin. Elenwė, though dead from the first mention of her, I also am fond of, so basically all of Turgon's family (oh, one fun fact - in HoMe, it is said that not only did Elenwė perish on the Ice, but Idril also would have but Turgon was able to save her but did not succeed with Elenwė).

Nerdanel I really admire. To have a husband like that, she had to be quite a woman and seeing that some of the sons were a lot mellower than their father, it speaks highly of the mother whose character they had to have inherited in greater degree.

I also like that it's fairly well-hidden from would-be Mary Sue writers, as mortal maid / Elf-lord is just too-tempting fodder for awful fanfic.

Oh, yes! We have to be thankful for that.
I have to say that that story had a lot to do beside the words of the Oath of Fėanor in a Maedhros fanfic I wrote tragedy-wise (not mortal-Elf relationship ;)).

I know, you're thinking "but he's so NICE, anu!" I don't know what's the matter with me there.

:lol: He is like the odd one out in the pattern :P.

Finduilas, yes, I like her too, especially for what might have been and how she could have been the one to lessen the tragedies of Turin, if only...
And the Gwindor-Turin thing also shows that not only do Men have such problems but Elves do too, since in all the other writings we do not see the issues of loving two persons at the same time or one love changing to another besides her and Finwė.



:roll: Aurelin :roll:
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Postby Aranis » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:45 pm

Hello Donisiliel :) Thanks for the OK to discuss HoME stories as well. I agree that much of the appeal is the whole bittersweet ME experience....something so beautiful and terrible about it all. And it's not real!....shame! :wink:
On the subject of Fëanor, you say that you both like him and don't like him. I supose that is where I am. He seems to have so much potential for great..and 'good' things and it seems such a waste that it all turned out so wrong. I think he sounds proud by nature, but many of the worst things he did were as a result of the lies spread amonst the Noldor by Melkor. He is the one to speak out publicly, and so he seems to get the blame. The Valar realise that Melkor has twisted the thoughts of many of the Noldor, but put some of the blame on Fëanor as well. Rightly so! But that is partially due to him threatening Fingolfin with a sword, and breaking the peace of Valinor. Don't start me on Fingolfin! :twisted: The worst things Fëanor does , and they are awful things, are when he is still under the influence of Melkor / Morgoth's lies, but compounded by grief at the murder of his Father, and the loss of the Silmarils. I wonder if at that point he is in his 'right mind'? Is he the same 'person' he was before Melkor was 'pardoned' and started his work on destroying the Noldor / Valar relationship.?
So why my alliance?..See above :shock:

Maedhros is an excellent character. :wink: He has such a hard time of things, yet seems to pull the rest of the 'family' together. Maglor I really like..but he seems so sad... Celegorm and Curufin are dreadful...I agree! But I wonder if they have any good points? Didn't Aredhel ride with the son's of Fëanor in Valinor..and she wandered off from Gondolin to find Celegorm? She seemed to like him!

Nerdanel is a favourite character of mine. I think she has been under rated. She must have had quite a lot of character to 'handle' Fëanor...and all those sons!

For the other houses..I have already said that I like Finrod Felegund from the House of Finafin..and I have a soft spot for Agnor. I am imensely glad not to have read any bad fiction about that tragic love story. I can imagine all too easily what some Mary Sue's would do!

I don't like Fingolfin! :x
But I like Turgon. :)
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Postby None_Elf_Ear » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:39 am

Aurelin wrote:
Aredhel I for some reason never could like.

She is strange. This is what I thought since I have first read about her.
But I still like her. For some reason, true. I'll have to think deeply about this and maybe come back with a longer comment.

Idril I started really to like after reading the Fall of Gondolin.

Idril is wise. She can see far and read deep into the hearts of those surrounding her.

Nerdanel I really admire. To have a husband like that, she had to be quite a woman and seeing that some of the sons were a lot mellower than their father, it speaks highly of the mother whose character they had to have inherited in greater degree.

Agreed. Have to study her better too. Is there any mention about her in the HoME ?
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Postby Aranis » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:39 am

'Looks at None_Elf_Ear's alliance..and thinks 'sorry for comment on Fingolfin' :oops: '

Nerdanel is mentioned in 'Morgoth's Ring'. It has some additional information to The Silmarillion. It says that many were suprised at Fëanor marrying her as she ' was not among the fairest of her people. But that she was strong and free of mind and filled with the desire of knowledge'.
She met Fëanor while out walking..she learned from her Father, Mathan many of the crafts that Noldor women seldom used. She made images of the Valar, and of other Noldor. In company she tended to listen to, and observe others. With her wisdom at first she restrained Fëanor..but his later deeds grieved her!'

Hope this helps.
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Postby Aurelin » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:52 am

I wonder if at that point he is in his 'right mind'? Is he the same 'person' he was before Melkor was 'pardoned' and started his work on destroying the Noldor / Valar relationship.?

I think rather he was not, it was just everything piling up that made him do the things he did. I remember a good quote of the whole people of Noldor which I later could not find again, something about them being more passionate about things and of course there is the whole knowledge thing of those seeking wisdom, being more apt to being turned.
But still, Fėanor - :shock: , for me.

About Nerdanel there is also the mention of her having coppery hair, a trait which Maedhros and the twins inherited and then there is the story of her asking Fėanor when the Noldor were about to leave Valinor, to leave her the youngest of the twins but he did not and she then said to him that one would not still reach Middle-earth and the youngest twin in that version of the story died in the burning of the ships of the Teleri.

I am not too fond of Fingolfin either, he is one of those I have warmed up to somewhat later but at first I classed him with Fingon.


But I wonder if they have any good points? Didn't Aredhel ride with the son's of Fëanor in Valinor..and she wandered off from Gondolin to find Celegorm? She seemed to like him!

There had to have been. For someone in the following of Oromė, could not have been potentially as bad as say Curufin like all the Aulė followers.

Yeah, without Idril's secret way,Eärendil would not have escaped, so yes, she was really farseeing.


:roll: Aurelin :roll:
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Postby None_Elf_Ear » Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:58 am

Aranis wrote:'Looks at None_Elf_Ear's alliance..and thinks 'sorry for comment on Fingolfin' :oops: '

There is no problem. At this moment, he is neutral to me. I do not like him, not despise him. But I can say that I like very much the song from Blind Guardian appealing to him (Time Stands Still). It describes quite well the fight he fought with Morgoth ... *sigh*

I have chosen this alliance due to the feminine part of his House ;)

Nerdanel is mentioned in 'Morgoth's Ring'. It has some additional information to The Silmarillion.

I bet it does :D Unfortunately for me, long time will pass until I'll be able to read these wonderful books :(

It says that many were suprised at Fëanor marrying her as she ' was not among the fairest of her people. But that she was strong and free of mind and filled with the desire of knowledge'.

Thank you for the new information. I was somehow sure that she was likewise, as I knew Feanor would not love someone for the beauty, as for the wiseness and for the craft. Good choice for him, though so sad ...

It helps a lot. She was thus strong, and willing, and she was making art/craft combinations herself. This makes me respect her even more.
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Postby Aurelin » Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:47 pm

But I can say that I like very much the song from Blind Guardian appealing to him (Time Stands Still). It describes quite well the fight he fought with Morgoth ... *sigh*

Oh, yes! I discovered BG like half a year ago and the first song that I absolutely loved was Time Stands Still, the others from the Night-fall in ME album did need a bit more time to grow on me. I think that song was what made me like him more than I did.

Talking of Nerdanel brought to my mind the women of the chief Noldor who did remain in Valinor. The stories tell about what happened in ME but it must have been really hard for the ones who were left behind, but they do not mention that aside from Miriel's work. Do we have any info on how much did they know about what happened there? Miriel yes did the tapestries but the others? But whether they heard the grievous tidings or not, it does not matter that much since surely they suffered a lot not knowing or hearing.


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Postby None_Elf_Ear » Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:02 am

It happened the same with me. I have been knowing BG for a longer time, but it was not in my mind to listen them properly, as Rhapsody was rulling my heart in this domain (and they still do and will ever do likewise, but this is another story and will e told another time). The first play I have ever heard was Lord of the Rings, and it seemed wonderful to my ears, as for my soul. It was just ME-fitting :D

After that, I have learnt TSS by heart. It is so heroical and sad at the same time ...
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Postby Donisiliel » Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:20 pm

Aurelin wrote:Yeah, Fėanor is the one that I think I will actually swoon for when hell freezes!


I know that quote is from a while ago, but I just had to comment that I find it very funny. :lol: :D I understand.

As far as Fëanor's mind at the time of his deeds of evil, I don't believe that he was in such a state of grief and anger that he was not responsible for his actions. While I agree that his being deceived by Morgoth was a significant factor in what he did, I think it is wrong to say that because Fëanor was deceived, he had no choice and responsibility for what he did. Still, you have a very good point in saying that his worst acts occured when a lot of wrongs happened to him at once. One wonders if he would have acted differently had he not been under such emotional stress. I think he may have acted less rashly, had the circumstances been better.

I like Fingolfin. I was particularly impressed by the valour he showed by riding out to fight Morgoth one on one. I used to have my alliance to his house for that reason.

Of the Elves of old, I also quite like Finrod for his friendship with Barahir and his house. As I've mentioned before, I admire how he gave his life to save Beren.

Yes, Anu, it is a very, very good thing that the Andreth/Aegnor story is so hidden. I shudder to think what would happen did the Mary Sue writers get a hold of that! :shock:

Aurelin, remember that I had asked if the returning Exiles would have been allowed to reenter Valinor? Well, as I read UT last night, I came across something interesting in the chapter about Galadriel and Celeborn. In the section on the Elessar, Galadriel argues that she does not yet wish to return to the west, saying "What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier." This makes it sound as if those returning would not be permited past Eressea. What do you think?

Here's a SW :twisted: :roll: :P :roll: :twisted: N for Fëanor just because I like his raven hair.

~Doni
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Postby Aurelin » Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:35 pm

I know that quote is from a while ago, but I just had to comment that I find it very funny.

:D

Oh, and I will never clear him of all responsibility, Fėanor that is! Being not in the right state of mind does not do that in my eyes. And besides what he did while so (of he was), then the seeds for the actions still lied in his deeds and thoughts from the time before the grief, so he was still responsible.

Doni, I had not remembered that quote. The conflicting pieces of information! I still like to believe that the Elves of Tol Eresseä were allowed to go to Valinor. For the Exiles it would have been a bit believable that since they did leave once, for that they would not get to return fully to Valinor (though like I have mentioned, highly unfair comparing the ones who had gone to Mandos and the ones who sailed), but the Sindar were only guilty of being loyal to their(or their forefathers') lord and not being able to be reunited with the other Teleri would be cruel.


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Postby None_Elf_Ear » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:01 am

Donisiliel wrote:I like Fingolfin. I was particularly impressed by the valour he showed by riding out to fight Morgoth one on one. I used to have my alliance to his house for that reason.

The trixy thing about this act of his is that it was useless to confront the dark power like that. I usually ask myself why he decided to do this and to assume such a risk, knowing actually that he has no chance of winning over ? I remeber how torn apart I felt when I have first read about the way he had died, and it seemed so unfair and brutal to me.

Of the Elves of old, I also quite like Finrod for his friendship with Barahir and his house. As I've mentioned before, I admire how he gave his life to save Beren.

Subscribing here. Dying in a cave as the prisoner of Morgoth was not at all an honorable thing, it was more than that. It was an act of love and courage above any other feelings, like pride or dignity. And somehow I feel that he has looked for his death. It was nothing left for him on Middle Earth.
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Postby Aurelin » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:50 pm

With Fingolfin, we get the other case of "being not in his right mind" when he rode out, but I think the humanly way he acted when blinded by grief makes him all the more likeable as he gets closer to you because of that.

And somehow I feel that he has looked for his death.

I never thought like that but it does seem likely for I do not remember the exact reasons for him choosing to go to Middle-earth, they were not as strong as say Fingolfin's or Fingon's or even Galadriel's.

Today's SW 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) NNN!! will go for Denethor, the Green-Elf

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Postby None_Elf_Ear » Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:05 am

I think Finrod did not want to go via Middle Earth. He just felt that this had to be his path, as his duty as elder brother was to protect the proud and somehow fool Galadriel. There he went, against his will, leaving behind a sadened father and his beloved.
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Postby Aurelin » Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:28 pm

Ok, I have the Sil in my hand to refresh my memory.

When Fėanor and his sons had sworn the oath, Fingolfin and Turgon are said to have opposed them and Finrod is said to have stood with Turgon, his friend. When Fingolfin indeed went from Valinor he did so because of what he had promised before the throne of Manwė, because he did not want to leave his people and because Fingon urged him to go. I guess Turgon and therefore also Finrod were then caught up since Turgon would do what his father did.


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Postby Donisiliel » Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:47 pm

I'm moved yet again to sw :!: :!: n for Maedhros because he's so beautiful and desperate and has red hair! *thud*

(Incidently, I met a very cute red-haired fellow at the music store today.)

~Doni
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Postby None_Elf_Ear » Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:37 am

Aurelin, thank you for checking this up.

I can breathe easier when I think I have not made a mistake by writing what I had written :)
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Postby Aurelin » Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:21 pm

None, you are welcome! I was interested myself to look it up since last I read the Sil like a year ago and HoMe-s after that, and the "who stood with who" was one thing JRR also changed many times.
(Incidently, I met a very cute red-haired fellow at the music store today.)

Doni, :D.
SW :P :P :P :P :P :P :P NNN!! for Maedhros indeed


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Postby anuhealani » Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:14 am

Hello, Silly swooners! :grouphug: Looks like this thread needs a boost.

I was just telling Doni earlier today how I've been swooning for Caranthir lately. I know, I'm out of my skull, eh?

Thanks for clearing that up, Aurelin. When I get reading too much HoME everyone's reasons for staying or going or arguing or whatever get pretty jumbled up in my head. And not-completely-but-almost-off-topically, does anybody else ever think Turgon=Old? I cannot think of him in any form except old and fatherly and, well, kingly. Thingol is much the same way. Many of the others look and act significantly younger in my mind, for no apparent reason.

And as I cannot bring myself to swoon for Turgon (that'd be like swooning for my dad!) I shall keep sw :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: ning for Morifinwë...
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Postby Aurelin » Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:09 pm

And not-completely-but-almost-off-topically, does anybody else ever think Turgon=Old?

I can understand why that thought would readily come, though it is strange that I did not think that - Idril's existence. Though nothing says you are old after you have a child, it does give this fatherly air.

I did not precieve Thingol like that either, I think because of his meeting with Melian and the love and all (though I am not saying older people do not fall in love or something!).
One who has always seemed to give off the air of being old is Ingwe and of course Cirdan (though he is of an age with Elwe, or younger).

SW :love: :love: :love: :love: NN!! for Finarfin, smart enough not to go traipsing around Middle-earth and getting banned and cursed and whatnot.


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Postby Donisiliel » Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:25 pm

Anu wrote:It's difficult to say why, exactly. For one thing, he's a middle child and the only brother who's not half of a pair (the Ms, the other two Cs, Ambarussa). He's wrathful and haughty (which I like ) but, additionally, he has some interesting relationships with the Dwarves, Ulfang and sons, and the Haladin. And of course he's very uncharacteristically kind to Haleth herself. There's an intriguing dynamic between those two. Also, he's generally glossed over and therefore something of a mystery.

Besides, if all else fails, he's got money.

I'm sure I'll run right back to Celegorm in a little while. He's my favorite, though your Maitimo isn't exactly chopped liver with me either. I'd say on an average day (not minding my current obsession) my Fëanorean preferences go Celegorm -> Maedhros -> Maglor -> Curufin -> Caranthir -> Ambarussa. Goodness, there are just so MANY of them, aren't there?


Well, I cannot say I remember a good deal about Caranthir from reading the Sil. I'm ready to have another go at that book. However, given his quick temper, I really can't say he is very attractive to me. Of the Fëanoreans, the ones I happen to like are Maedhros, Maglor and the twins. I have to say I'm still sort of shock at Celegorm and Curufin's treatment of Finrod and Luthien. I can't say I find any redeeming qualities in those two (C. and C., that is).

Maedhros I like for his action of giving the kingship of the Noldor to Fingolfin and also his opposing the burning of the ships. Of course, the tragedy of his torment on Thangorodrim is endearing. Also, I admire how he held the family together for so long.

Maglor seems to be the most compassionate one. Of all the sons, he is the one I imagine truly would not have perpetrated all the evils that they did if he had had a choice. His heartsickness at the last two kinslayings and his fostering of Elrond and Elros speak volumes of his character.

Lastly, the twins seem to be temperate enough. Not a whole lot is written of them, good or bad. The late writings found in the HoME XII are very much in their favour.

He's my favorite, though your Maitimo isn't exactly chopped liver with me either.


:D That reminds me of something my sister says. Have you read Dickens's Great Expectations? In the beginning, the escaped convict tries to frighten Pip by saying that he has a "young man" who will come in the middle of the night and eat Pip's liver out. Well, my dear sis applies that to the Fëanoreans. "Maedhros will come and eat your liver out!"

Besides, if all else fails, he's got money.


He does? :shock: Jog my memory please. (You know what shape it's in.) ;)

Yes, I know what you mean about Turgon seeming old. I think what gave me the idea most was probably the name. I mean, I can't see some young Elf in the prime of life going about with a name like that. I really don't like that name. Thingol also is a name I don't care for. I wish he'd stayed Elwë. Thingol has always seemed old to me, too. Somehow, those weird names effect my subconscious.

A collective SW 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) N for the Elves of the First Age!

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Postby anuhealani » Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:13 am

First things first: I found another Maglor I like quite a bit.

And have I said how much I adore Chmiel??

I think she was reading my mind: Caranthir and Haleth
This one's for you, Doni: Awwww!

Aurelin wrote:I can understand why that thought would readily come, though it is strange that I did not think that - Idril's existence.

Hmmm...possibly. But Fingon is older, and had a kid--according to one source, anyway ;)--and I never think of him that way. Same goes for a lot of other people--Fëanor, etc.

Doni wrote:However, given his quick temper, I really can't say he is very attractive to me.

I'm beginning to think I'm really warped. I don't go for real-life bad boys, honest! :whistle:

I can't say I find any redeeming qualities in those two (C. and C., that is).

I really like having to dig to find the good qualities in the nasties. Just think of the Valinor version of Celegorm. He was a good friend of Oromë there! And he knew all the languages of birds and beasts. He couldn't have been all bad. Or at least Aredhel thought as much. Curufin, on the other hand...well, I can't give anybody a reason for EVER liking him. He's just twisted.

Maedhros I like for his action of giving the kingship of the Noldor to Fingolfin and also his opposing the burning of the ships.

I have to wonder how much he would have cared if Fingon had not been among the abandoned. Even C and C express the desire to bring the sons of Finarfin over with them, in HoME. I sort of like the later M&Ms (hee hee) who are tormented by the pain and suffering they've caused; the ones who are heartsick and curse the Oath even though they're bound to it. Their experience speaks volumes. And Valar, how I love this picture.

That reminds me of something my sister says. Have you read Dickens's Great Expectations?

I have, but it was many, many years ago! I don't remember anything about it except that I liked it. :D

Doni wrote:
Anu wrote:Besides, if all else fails, he's got money. ;)
He does? :shock: Jog my memory please. (You know what shape it's in.) ;)

All those dealings with Dwarves, ya know...

Yes, I know what you mean about Turgon seeming old. I think what gave me the idea most was probably the name. I mean, I can't see some young Elf in the prime of life going about with a name like that.

Bingo! The names really do have that effect on me! Weird...

Aurelin wrote:SWOOOOONN!! for Finarfin, smart enough not to go traipsing around Middle-earth and getting banned and cursed and whatnot.

Hear, hear. :)
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