TH:DOS - Extended version

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TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Gungnir » Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:31 am

So, has anyone here seen the extended version of Desolation of Smaug yet? Does it improve (what I consider to be) a pretty poor film overall?

Basically, is it worth me spending my money on it?
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:07 am

Yes, I've seen it. My opinion is that it is a considerable improvement over the TE (far more so than with AUJ). But then I already very much liked DoS, despite some obviously flaws. I would honestly say that I don't think you should spend your money on it because the impression I get from your posts is that your attitude is so poisoned against this film that I don't think the improvements will make much difference to you.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Gungnir » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:22 pm

'Attitude is so poisoned"? That's a rather unkind way of putting it. Am I not allowed to dislike something?

I wanted to like it but thought it was mostly ridiculous rubbish. Nowhere near as good as the first film, never mind the Lord of the Rings films. I was hoping that there might be something I would like in the added material that might make the rest more palatable. If my attitude was 'poisoned' then I wouldn't be bothered at all, would I?
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:36 pm

You are certainly allowed to dislike something, but I also am allowed to have the opinion that your dislike is over the top, when comparing DoS to AUJ, or even the LOTR films.

In any event, while I don't think the additions would have any influence on the things that you dislike, there are some aspects of the additions that bring the film a little more in line with what Tolkien wrote (primarily with regard to Beorn and Mirkwood), but also some other things that if anything exacerbate the deviations. I can be more specific if you would like.
Last edited by Voronwe_the_Faithful on Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Gungnir » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:48 pm

That would be good
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:16 pm

The first new scene with Beorn closely parallels the scene in the book in which Gandalf introduces his companions a few at a time. It is very well done, in my opinion. As for Mirkwood, both Bombur falling in the enchanted stream and Thorin shooting at (and missing) the white stag are added back in. The latter in particular is a very nice touch.

In terms of exacerbating the deviations, the second additional scene with Beorn leads to a flashback in which the burial of the WitchKing is shown, extending the change that they have made in the nature of the Nazgul from beings that have become wraiths from being enslaved to their rings to being men who died and then were raised from death by the Necromancer. It is (as my friend Gandalf's Mother has noted), this is how you do adaptation, without being slavishly literal. Capture the essence and spirit of Tolkien, just not the facts. It really is quite evocative. Moreover, the scene with Beorn that it is imbedded in is great, and goes a ways towards further explaining Gandalf's decision to leave the company. Beorn in general is really improved by the extended material.

Laketown is also considerably improved by the additions, particularly the characters of the Master and Alfrid, and one of the nicest touches is a scene in which Bilbo defends Thorin's honor.

But the biggest change isn't so much an addition but an outright change in the Dol Guldur scenes, with Thrain added back in. This again exacerbates the changes from canon, since Thrain should have been long since dead, but it is very moving, and if you are not bothered by change, it is a great improvement. Anthony Sher does a wonderful, very moving acting job.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby original wombat » Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:24 pm

I tend to agree with Voronwe.

I'm not a big fan of the film overall but I thought the EE improved rather than detracted. Beorn in particular gets a much better outing as a character, and Thrain was a surprising addition. Antony Sher gave a lovely performance

so overall I would say give it a go, book fans may like the '2 at a time' sequence when the dwarves meet Beorn
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Gungnir » Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:53 pm

I actually like the sound of those extended scenes.

I am not anti-changes, I liked a lot of the changes in LotR, e.g. the moth, elves at Helm's Deep, excision of Bombadil. But the changes have to be good. The ridiculous action sequences in the last half of DOS were, in my opinion, abysmal when compared to the original text. If that makes me 'poisoned' well, so be it.

From the description of the added/changed scenes, I am very tempted to buy the extended version.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:59 pm

I'm skeptical that it will make that much of a difference to you, given the vehemence of your reaction to the film. It is, after all, probably 90% the same film. That having been said, I'm very curious to see if it does make much of a difference for you. And, of course, the extras are extraordinary, and probably alone worth the price of the purchase.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby darthgandalf99 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:03 pm

The Extended Edition is a much improved film. I can't really add any more value to what Voronwe has already summed up.

I would say that although some of the deviations continue in the EE such as burial of the WiKi and Thrain in Dol Guldur, they do make the whole film feel more true to Tolkien. The ] burial and escape of the Ringwraiths while not being very true to the text or even necessarily Jackson's own LOTR trilogy, is very evocative visually and does have a sort of poeticism about it that I think stays true to Tolkien in spirit. :)
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:01 pm

Well said; I agree.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Minardil » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:50 am

I bought it when it came out last week, but haven't watched it yet. I'm currently in a play, my evenings and weekends are pretty booked solid, though I did watch some of the appendices. As with the Extended Editions of the original LoTR movies, I find the documentaries on the making of the films to be truly fascinating. Having said that, I'll try to find sometime this weekend between shows to watch the new version of DoS. I liked the original - even though I thought some bits were silly and frankly strained credulity. But yeah, I liked it very much, even with the deviations from the original text, so I'm looking forward to seeing these new scenes that seem to bring the story closer in line with the book. Also very excited to see the final installment!
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby portia » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:17 pm

I hadn't been considering buying the EE of DoS, but with this discussion, I think I will re-consider.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby LleuLlewGyffes » Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:10 pm

Well, I think I'm on record for being underwhelmed by the theatrical version of DOS, but I have to confess that the additions for DOS-EE are a vast improvement. In fact, they are that much better that I find myself irritated over the choices made for the TE.

Of course, there is no hope rescuing DOS from the worst transgressions, such as the orc attack on Laketown, or every moment the dwarves are in the lonely mountain, silly gold statue and all, but the extended Beorn is sympathetic to the book, and the extended Mirkwood, hart and all, is a real improvement.

Thrain is not great. The "hunting" of Gandalf is crass, and the exorcism, followed by the Thorin flashback, is painfully contrived. But it could be worse. Damned with faint praise?

The EE is still, to me, pretty dreadful, but the additions make it not quite so jaw-droppingly awful. Strip out the nonsense additions, and there is actually a good story there; Tolkien's story.

I've seen a darn good edit of DOS, ninety minutes long, and much respect needs giving to Peter Jackson for providing the carcass from which this abridgement is sourced. I just wish Jackson had followed the same impetus, of Tolkien first.

Irrespective, DOS-EE is a huge improvement...

...especially once it has been edited.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Minardil » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:27 pm

I haven't watched the EE MOVIE yet, but I vegged out on the couch this weekend and watched all of the Appendices. I don't care what anyone things of the films, these behind-the-scenes documentaries are just fascinating. The amount of work that goes into creating the sets and props especially. You can't say the people don't CARE about what they are doing, even if you don't like some of the directorial decisions that Mr. Jackson has made.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby LleuLlewGyffes » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:48 pm

I agree with Minardil that there is no argument but that Peter Jackson and his team were passionate and diligent in transferring their vision to the screen. The pity, for me, is that this vision increasingly deviated from Tolkien's. Watching The Hobbit is like eating a deconstructed Bakewell Tart prepared by a chef with an ego that surpasses his talent; the almonds are there, and all the other ingredients, jam, and sponge, but what on earth is the pineapple, pickled onion and beetroot doing on the plate?
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Minardil » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:39 am

LleuLlewGyffes wrote:I agree with Minardil that there is no argument but that Peter Jackson and his team were passionate and diligent in transferring their vision to the screen. The pity, for me, is that this vision increasingly deviated from Tolkien's.


Oh, I'd have to disagree with the idea that Peter Jackson's "vision" of Middle Earth is so terribly different from JRRT's. Look at the sets and scenery and props. Are you honestly saying that you think the look and feel of Middle Earth in the films is unrecognizable from what you imagined while reading the books??? I think that PJ has done an incredible job of bringing Middle Earth to life, with a care and attention to detail that is truly astonishing. Details of the STORY have changed - some things have been changed or eliminated, new elements have been added - but even those changes don't alter the story beyond recognition, and none of those changes, some of which indeed are quite perplexing, don't alter the world in which the story is set, which is still undeniably Middle Earth.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Minardil » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:51 am

I'd say, for instance, that Jackson's understanding of the story and plotline of the Hobbit, and his "vision" of the Geography, peoples, and cultures of that world, are far superior to earlier attempts at film adaptation.

Like this. .

http://periannath.com/feature/ugly-elves-inflatable-orcs-rankinbass-1977-the-hobbit-reviewed/
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby solicitr » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:26 pm

Minardil wrote:I'd say, for instance, that Jackson's understanding of the story and plotline of the Hobbit, and his "vision" of the Geography, peoples, and cultures of that world, are far superior to earlier attempts at film adaptation.

Like this. .

http://periannath.com/feature/ugly-elves-inflatable-orcs-rankinbass-1977-the-hobbit-reviewed/


That's a tough standard of comparison there. Like "tallest dwarf."
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Minardil » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:35 am

In a world populated only by Dwarves, the tallest Dwarf would be pretty effin' tall.

In our world of existing Tolkien adaptations - and yes, there are many more than people realize, some best forgotten - the vision of Middle Earth that Mr. Jackson has brought to the screen is the most comprehensive and best realized, and apart from some plot deviations (which in and of themselves are actually pretty minor, considering how most books fare when brought to the screen. I mean, have you ever read the original books that "Forest Gump" or "Field of Dreams" were based on? The screen adaptations for those works are far more divergent from the original material than Jackson's adaptations of Tolkien are) is the most faithful retelling of Tolkien out there. Well, not including Books On Tape, which are just people READING the book.

If you thing that you or another director can do a better job of bringing the peoples of Middle Earth alive, then by all means have at it! I'd love to see more versions for comparison.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby solicitr » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:17 am

Minardil wrote:
If you thing that you or another director can do a better job of bringing the peoples of Middle Earth alive, then by all means have at it! I'd love to see more versions for comparison.


Sure thing. You provide the 300 million bucks.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby bornilon » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:28 pm

Sure thing. You provide the 300 million bucks.


Since you'll presumably be making one film with minimal cgi, I think your budget is somewhat inflated...
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Minardil » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:46 pm

solicitr wrote:
Minardil wrote:
If you thing that you or another director can do a better job of bringing the peoples of Middle Earth alive, then by all means have at it! I'd love to see more versions for comparison.


Sure thing. You provide the 300 million bucks.


I'm not the one saying PJ is a piece of crap, I think his work is excellent - for the most part.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby solicitr » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:29 am

bornilon wrote:
Sure thing. You provide the 300 million bucks.


Since you'll presumably be making one film with minimal cgi, I think your budget is somewhat inflated...


1,000s of extras cost money.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby portia » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:59 am

Not if they only exist in the computer.

I guess I will have to buy the EE version of DoS. I did not and will not buy the theatrical version, unless I win the lottery and do not know what else to do with my money, but the EE additions seem to make it worthwhile.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Minardil » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:51 am

portia wrote:Not if they only exist in the computer.

I guess I will have to buy the EE version of DoS. I did not and will not buy the theatrical version, unless I win the lottery and do not know what else to do with my money, but the EE additions seem to make it worthwhile.


I got it, and I thought it was a much better film, because the added material was so valuable to the story. We get the introduction of the dwarves to Beorn, for example, in a way that was similar to that in the book, if not identical. And we see Gandalf and Thrain together in Dol Guldur. Yes, it's out of sequence with the way Tolkien wrote it, in that in happens concurrently with the action of the Hobbit, rather than years before, and some other details were different from Tolkien's writings, but still it was great to see.

And of course the EE's have those fantastic documentaries on the making of the movies, which I find incredibly fascinating. Honestly, they are the real reason I get the EE's.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby lotrjw » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:49 am

portia wrote:Not if they only exist in the computer.

I guess I will have to buy the EE version of DoS. I did not and will not buy the theatrical version, unless I win the lottery and do not know what else to do with my money, but the EE additions seem to make it worthwhile.


Well like you Im not bothering with the theatrical versions of any of the Hobbit films, purely from a money point of view as the extended editions, which are value for money as they have so many extras and extra scenes, cost enough anyway. I double dipped, no triple dipped on the Lord of the Rings films buying Fellowship 6 times over (1 VHS theatrical, 1 VHS extended, 3 DVD extended and now the BluRay extended), The Two Towers 4 times over (1 DVD theatrical, 2 DVD extended and 1 BluRay extended) and Return of the King 4times over (1 DVD theatrical, 2 DVD extended and 1 BluRay extended)!
The extra copies of the extended DVDs were down to buying them all before I realised that I could get the versions with the book ends and then the ones that came with the Fellowship broke so I had to buy again!
I had the money those days, these days 1 copy of the extended version of each one (except for fan edits which can vastly improve the story), are more than enough!
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby portia » Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:22 am

I have been looking around for an Extended Edition of the DVD for DoS. I am getting confused by "Special Editions" and HD and, of course, Blue ray combinations.
I have a DVD player, not blue ray, and I want all the extra minutes.

What do I look for and where can I buy it? As far as I can tell, Amazon doesn't have it, and I am not sure about Walmart.

I will not be able to check in person until at least Tues, Dec 23.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby lotrjw » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:30 am

portia wrote:I have been looking around for an Extended Edition of the DVD for DoS. I am getting confused by "Special Editions" and HD and, of course, Blue ray combinations.
I have a DVD player, not blue ray, and I want all the extra minutes.

What do I look for and where can I buy it? As far as I can tell, Amazon doesn't have it, and I am not sure about Walmart.

I will not be able to check in person until at least Tues, Dec 23.


This is the UK Amazon site for what you are looking for and so the UK version: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00L ... entries*=0
If that isnt the right one for you I dont know? It is DoS extended edition though!

Edit: you mentioned Walmart this: http://www.walmart.com/ip/The-Hobbit-Th ... n/38760768 is what I found when searching, I think its American as its in Dollars.
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Re: TH:DOS - Extended version

Postby Spider Spence » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:09 am

Did most people enjoy the first film more than the second? I liked Desolation better, though I rolled my eyes and groaned at the over-the-top barrel fights, the more melodramatic parts of Kili & Tauriel, and the giant gold statue combo move. In general, the movie had better pacing until just before the end.
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