Tauriel! PJ's character addition

[campkennedy]

Hello,
First, am new to the group... Excited to be here as I enter into the world of Tolkien... Most definitely have much to learn about this rich and complex world which has been introduced to me somewhat recently. I look forward to experiencing many more great and for me, new things about Middle Earth... A place that I have come to love. I appreciate the time that anyone may have to answer a quick question for me, maybe even share a thought or some insight, as I have much more reading to do. So, in advance, many thanks to everyone!
My question is... Now, with the release of the final chapter of Peter Jackson's 'Hobbit', what happens next for Tauriel? My introduction into the world of Tolkien and Middle Earth was LOTR (movie), released now more than a decade ago... Unbelievable! But, since then, I have been trying to get caught up and read more about all of the wonderful characters I have met.
Tauriel, in my opinion, is truly one of the wonderful (new) characters of Middle Earth. She feels as though she is a seamless fit, but would like to hear from others as I know that She changes the flow of the original story, as do a few other things in Jackson's release. Perhaps that is OK? Anyways, with that said, what happens next for her after the death of Kili? I do not get the impression or believe that she would or could return home. It seems that Tauriel's future is left open...? Maybe the answer is speculative only... Or, perhaps there is an answer to this question in an upcoming extended edition...? Hope so... Apologies if this is a topic that's already been addressed. Kevin

Will have another 'Hobbit' question for the group to follow this one

[Lalaith-Elerrina]

I won't share my opinion of Tauriel herself, because she simply is in the movie(s), and I have to accept that. As far as what's happened so far, it seems her banishment is not longer in force, because Thranduil seems to have softened up a little bit, so there's no reason she couldn't go back to Mirkwood, continuing to deal with her grief, and eventually, put it in its place and go forward with her life. There seem to be many unanswered questions with the theatrical release, (and not just about Tauriel; there are several things that feel unfinished with the theatrical edition especially in regards to the title character Bilbo) and it would be interesting to see if these unanswered questions are answered in the Extended Edition. All we can do, is wait and see.

[HELMHAMMERHAND]

Don't you think the actress playing her might have made a better Rosie Cotton.

She's no elf.

[HELMHAMMERHAND]

Don't you think the actress playing her might have made a better Rosie Cotton.

She's no elf.

[campkennedy]

OK, now that's kinda funny!

[ngaur]

Ah poor Tauriel. They added her in I think because they felt that the Hobbit needed some Girl power. And the movie a love story. On the other hand she had no part to play in Lord of the Rings, and since Kili was set to die her fate naturally leads to a dead end.

I figured because of this that Peter Jackson would kill her off, but it seems he decided to leave it open, and that's how it must remain. Unless he changes his mind in the extended edition.

So it's really up to you to decide if she returned to Mirkwood or went wandering.

[lotrjw]

Ah poor Tauriel. They added her in I think because they felt that the Hobbit needed some Girl power. And the movie a love story. On the other hand she had no part to play in Lord of the Rings, and since Kili was set to die her fate naturally leads to a dead end.

I figured because of this that Peter Jackson would kill her off, but it seems he decided to leave it open, and that's how it must remain. Unless he changes his mind in the extended edition.

So it's really up to you to decide if she returned to Mirkwood or went wandering.

A pointless character creation then as it has created a dead end for nothing! All so that they could create a pointless love story! I dont mind watching it mind, but its just silly how Peter Jackson thinks that all these films needed a love story. All right Aragorn and Arwen were in love in the book, but even that was embellished and they had to scale it back in the end!

[Spider Spence]

I didn't mind adding a girl to the Unexpected Sausage Party. I did mind how she automatically became the focus of a love triangle.

As far as the books, she probably took part in the northern front of the War of the Ring, where the Nazgul led an assault from Dol Guldur against Lothlorien and the Woodland Realm.

[LadyElbereth]

I didn't mind adding a girl to the Unexpected Sausage Party. I did mind how she automatically became the focus of a love triangle.

As far as the books, she probably took part in the northern front of the War of the Ring, where the Nazgul led an assault from Dol Guldur against Lothlorien and the Woodland Realm.

...or she could be the kind-hearted guard that allowed Gollum some fresh air among the trees - and who was then slain for her kindness when the Orcs attacked, allowing Gollum to escape!

[lotrjw]

I didn't mind adding a girl to the Unexpected Sausage Party. I did mind how she automatically became the focus of a love triangle.

As far as the books, she probably took part in the northern front of the War of the Ring, where the Nazgul led an assault from Dol Guldur against Lothlorien and the Woodland Realm.

...or she could be the kind-hearted guard that allowed Gollum some fresh air among the trees - and who was then slain for her kindness when the Orcs attacked, allowing Gollum to escape!

Thats a more likely scenario!

[lurker.tomato]

I'm still new to the Middle Earth and finding out that Tauriel is just a made up character made me feel quite sad. I too would wonder how she ends up, if back to Mirkwood then probably she'll be slowly dying away because of her grief.

[Lalaith-Elerrina]

I didn't mind adding a girl to the Unexpected Sausage Party. I did mind how she automatically became the focus of a love triangle.

As far as the books, she probably took part in the northern front of the War of the Ring, where the Nazgul led an assault from Dol Guldur against Lothlorien and the Woodland Realm.

My feelings actually are very similar. When I first heard of her creation, I had serious misgivings. But really, had she just been added in, and been there to balance out all the males, that wouldn't have been too much of a problem. However, when she became part of an extremely ham-fisted, implausible love triangle, that's when things went too far. That's when things became so obviously forced, that the story ceased to be real. Suspension of disbelief was gone; the movie no longer told a functional story; instead, it became something very two-dimensional that Peter Jackson created in New Zealand in a movie studio, with a few shots in the countryside, in order to make money for New Line Cinema et al.

[Diamond of Long Cleeve]

I'm still new to the Middle Earth and finding out that Tauriel is just a made up character made me feel quite sad. I too would wonder how she ends up, if back to Mirkwood then probably she'll be slowly dying away because of her grief.

Lots more sad deaths in Middle-earth, I'm afraid. Especially in The Silmarillion!

I liked Tauriel, actually. Evangeline Lilly is a very decent actress, and she also looked gorgeous. The Kili love thing was really weird though. Gimli's adoration for Galadriel is very much based on the 'courtly love' model. And that is really the only Dwarf-Elf love that should exist. Apart from Gimli and Legolas's friendship.

I'm glad that PJ didn't kill Tauriel off though. That would have detracted from the actual, canonical, deaths of Thorin and his sister-sons.

[oldtoby]

I never cared one way or the other for Tauriel. I always thought the Elves in general were badly portrayed by PJ and Co. This idea that since they are immortal they don't feel or understand emotion, never made any sense to me. Tauriel suffers from this, and her teenagerish breakdown with Thranduil at the end of BOFA "oh why does love hurt so much?!?!? wahhh" really?


Sorry PJ but Elves are not Middle Earth Vulcans.

[lurker.tomato]

I never cared one way or the other for Tauriel. I always thought the Elves in general were badly portrayed by PJ and Co. This idea that since they are immortal they don't feel or understand emotion, never made any sense to me. Tauriel suffers from this, and her teenagerish breakdown with Thranduil at the end of BOFA "oh why does love hurt so much?!?!? wahhh" really?


Sorry PJ but Elves are not Middle Earth Vulcans.

What about the Rivendell elves making fun of Thorin and Co. ... that trala la lly song, weren't they meant to say they have feelings too?

[darthgandalf99]

I never cared one way or the other for Tauriel. I always thought the Elves in general were badly portrayed by PJ and Co. This idea that since they are immortal they don't feel or understand emotion, never made any sense to me. Tauriel suffers from this, and her teenagerish breakdown with Thranduil at the end of BOFA "oh why does love hurt so much?!?!? wahhh" really?


Sorry PJ but Elves are not Middle Earth Vulcans.

I have to agree. Tolkien portrayed Elves as loving harder, deeper longer and almost more violently than Men. They have to, as they are bound to the world, they need to care for it and everything in it with a greater passion. I don't think this is conveyed well in the films, if at all.

[Lalaith-Elerrina]

I never cared one way or the other for Tauriel. I always thought the Elves in general were badly portrayed by PJ and Co. This idea that since they are immortal they don't feel or understand emotion, never made any sense to me. Tauriel suffers from this, and her teenagerish breakdown with Thranduil at the end of BOFA "oh why does love hurt so much?!?!? wahhh" really?


Sorry PJ but Elves are not Middle Earth Vulcans.

What about the Rivendell elves making fun of Thorin and Co. ... that trala la lly song, weren't they meant to say they have feelings too?

They tra-la-la-lallied in the book by Tolkien. In the movie, directed by Peter Jackson, they didn't. That's what Old Toby is saying.

[portia]

I do not think Tauriel's creation was pointless. Girl-power is now a bad idea, in itself, and she was PJ's bow to the downside of war. The movie needed something other than War and prep for war to lure in something other than overgrown adolescents.

[Ladykat]

But really, had she just been added in, and been there to balance out all the males, that wouldn't have been too much of a problem. However, when she became part of an extremely ham-fisted, implausible love triangle, that's when things went too far. That's when things became so obviously forced, that the story ceased to be real. Suspension of disbelief was gone; the movie no longer told a functional story; instead, it became something very two-dimensional that Peter Jackson created in New Zealand in a movie studio, with a few shots in the countryside, in order to make money for New Line Cinema et al.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I have no problem with a strong female character---after all, LOTR had Eowyn----but that moronic love triangle nonsense was hard to watch. It added nothing to the story in my opinion.

LK

[Lalaith-Elerrina]

But really, had she just been added in, and been there to balance out all the males, that wouldn't have been too much of a problem. However, when she became part of an extremely ham-fisted, implausible love triangle, that's when things went too far. That's when things became so obviously forced, that the story ceased to be real. Suspension of disbelief was gone; the movie no longer told a functional story; instead, it became something very two-dimensional that Peter Jackson created in New Zealand in a movie studio, with a few shots in the countryside, in order to make money for New Line Cinema et al.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I have no problem with a strong female character---after all, LOTR had Eowyn----but that moronic love triangle nonsense was hard to watch. It added nothing to the story in my opinion.

LK

Thank you! Her creation itself was not pointless. But what happened with her character made the story forced and dysfunctional, and ultimately implausible.


Below, is an essay I wrote for my blog. It doesn’t encompass all my thoughts on The Hobbit movies, but it does go into much of what I got from the character of Tauriel and how that character moved and interacted with situations and other characters within the movie.
…
When I first heard of her, I admit I was very wary of Tauriel’s inclusion in The Hobbit movies. She isn’t a canon character, first and foremost, and what her inclusion meant, I didn’t know, which made me very nervous. Additionally, her character came across as a little too perfect, and too constructed. She’s only around 600, very young for an elf, and roughly the equivalent of about 20 in our years, yet she was the captain of the guard. And that didn’t seem realistic, or organic.

However, truth be known, had she simply been there as a balance to the male-heavy story, she wouldn’t have hurt anything. In fact, Tauriel could have been a good non-canon female character; a strong, brave character to give females, including myself, someone to look up to, and root for.

Instead, despite her potential, she immediately became defined by males around her rather than being independent by becoming a romantic interest in a very rushed cross-species relationship. (Elves and humans are not different species; they are different races, being the first and second born of Ilúvatar; dwarves, fashioned by Aulë are a different species entirely.) Additionally, it began with a very disrespectful comment from the dwarf half of the relationship when he asked her to look down his pants. Oddly, this seemed to be remedied and negated by a short conversation about a rock Kili’s mom gave him, and how pretty the stars were. With this, impressionable girls who could have learned a lot of powerful, positive ideas from Tauriel, instead get the false, and dangerous impressions that one- romance doesn't have to take time as long as you simply find the other person attractive, and two- if a man says suggestive, crude things to you, it must mean he really likes you. (It wasn’t a terribly helpful message for boys, either.)

In reality, real love always takes time, and it is always accompanied by regard and respect. Without the time to truly get to know who someone really is, and without respect, it isn’t real. Ever. Certainly one can be attracted immediately to someone he or she doesn't know, and certainly a person can feel compassion for someone one doesn't know, but the ability to know someone soul deep enough to feel honest, real romantic love for that person takes time and is always accompanied by respect. The idea that real love can be rushed was a very negative and destructive idea to give girls, along with the idea that all a woman is good for, is to be someone's romantic interest, since Tauriel becomes so immediately with her introduction into the story and is defined that way all through the story.

Additionally, the dwarf on elf romance was not plausible or natural any more than a human on gorilla romance would be. Different species simply would not be attracted to each other in real life, and the forced relationship between dwarf and elf made it obvious that those events were being choreographed by a force external to the characters rather than it being something that would have naturally occurred if the characters were real people.

When one part of a story shows itself to be forced, it creates a cascade effect, and makes the entire story implausible. If, for example, Tauriel and her relationships show themselves to be constructs of the movie director’s choices rather than being something the characters would do on their own if they were real people, then that in turn, means that Bilbo and Thorin, Galadriel and Beorn, Gandalf and Legolas, and everything and everyone else in this universe is false and forced as well, no matter how well they act in their parts. (And there was some great acting in the Hobbit movies.)

All fiction is, of course, fiction. It isn’t real. But the storymakers of fiction have the obligation to create and sustain the illusion of reality. If they are successful in doing that, then their audience is able to suspend its disbelief. When they create relationships and situations that are not natural and organic, as with the situation with Tauriel and Kili, the illusion of reality is destroyed.

Tauriel could easily have been a great addition to the movies, giving girls a strong heroine to look up to, and emulate even though she isn't canon. She could have been a character who added and complemented the story, helping from her position as a supporting character, to move the story of Bilbo along. But that did not happen.

[heliona]

Very well said, Lalaith-Elerrina.

[Minardil]

Are we forgetting the bit where Gimli was more or less madly in love with Galadriel? Certainly he viewed her as an object of womanly beauty, not as a Gorilla would view a Human woman.

I agree that making Tauriel the focus of a completely unnecessary love triangle was somewhat silly, but let's not assume that such a triangle itself was something completely alien to or out of bounds with Tolkien's writings on the matter, given the Gimli-Galadriel precedent.

[Lalaith-Elerrina]

Gimli, to keep this G rated, didn't want to get together with her. He admired her platonically, and respected her.

[Minardil]

Gimli, to keep this G rated, didn't want to get together with her. He admired her platonically, and respected her.

Well, he may not have intended actual courtship, but I think it's very clear from the language of the text that he was enamored of her beauty and had something of a crush on her. Galadriel herself comments on his fine words of flattery. Gimli was "platonic" with Legolas, he didn't request any strands of HIS hair. .

[wilko185]

Re Gimli/Galadriel, I think Di summed it up best, above:

Gimli's adoration for Galadriel is very much based on the 'courtly love' model. And that is really the only Dwarf-Elf love that should exist. Apart from Gimli and Legolas's friendship.

Tolkien writes in the Appendices that Gimli:

was named Elf-friend because of the great love that grew between him and Legolas, son of King Thranduil, and because of his reverence for the Lady Galadriel.

Letter #154:

...certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.

Although Gimli threatened violence to defend Galadriel's claim to be "the fairest of ladies", the above quotes give Gimli's relationship with Galadriel as one of 'reverence' and 'servant', while with Legolas it was love and friendship.

All that said, I just don't buy the idea that elves and dwarves are somehow incompatible "species". Galadriel was far above Gimli's station, whereas Tauriel of the films was presented as a different level of being, much closer to Kili's level. I didn't think the romance was really necessary, and was crudely presented, but it didn't offend me.

[Ladykat]

All that said, I just don't buy the idea that elves and dwarves are somehow incompatible "species". Galadriel was far above Gimli's station, whereas Tauriel of the films was presented as a different level of being, much closer to Kili's level. I didn't think the romance was really necessary, and was crudely presented, but it didn't offend me.

I wasn't offended by it either. Just annoyed.

As Lalaith said, it was contrived and forced, and as I said, it added nothing to the story.

LK

[Samuel Vimes]

All that said, I just don't buy the idea that elves and dwarves are somehow incompatible "species". Galadriel was far above Gimli's station, whereas Tauriel of the films was presented as a different level of being, much closer to Kili's level. I didn't think the romance was really necessary, and was crudely presented, but it didn't offend me.

I wasn't offended by it either. Just annoyed.

As Lalaith said, it was contrived and forced, and as I said, it added nothing to the story.

LK

I have no problem if people think it was badly done or unneeded.
To me is way too cheesy and could have been served by toning it down a lot.

However the logic that Elves and Dwarves are different "Species" and using a Human/Gorilla analogy is way off base and is not a good argument at all.
That would condem Human/Elf relationships as well and if we invoke real world science, Lions and Tigers can mate and have done so and even producde fertile off-spring sometimes. Plus the above mentioned Gimli stuff.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

[Minardil]

Gimli's adoration for Galadriel is very much based on the 'courtly love' model

I think "courtly love" is a good description, but remember that eroticism constrained and denied by the demands duty, the traditions of chivalry, and the limitations imposed by differing stations are a central part of the "courtly love" model. The Knight DESIRES the Queen or at least has romantic love for her, but his duty to the King forbids him from acting on that desire, so he goes on impossible quests and bears her favor and wins tournaments in her honor instead. That sounds like a pretty good description of Gimli's affection for Galadriel.

The argument that Fili is a gorilla and that it is somehow "impossible" for Dwarves and Elves to feel attraction towards each other is just completely wrong.

[LadyElbereth]

But really, had she just been added in, and been there to balance out all the males, that wouldn't have been too much of a problem. However, when she became part of an extremely ham-fisted, implausible love triangle, that's when things went too far. That's when things became so obviously forced, that the story ceased to be real. Suspension of disbelief was gone; the movie no longer told a functional story; instead, it became something very two-dimensional that Peter Jackson created in New Zealand in a movie studio, with a few shots in the countryside, in order to make money for New Line Cinema et al.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I have no problem with a strong female character---after all, LOTR had Eowyn----but that moronic love triangle nonsense was hard to watch. It added nothing to the story in my opinion.

LK

Thank you! Her creation itself was not pointless. But what happened with her character made the story forced and dysfunctional, and ultimately implausible.


However, truth be known, had she simply been there as a balance to the male-heavy story, she wouldn’t have hurt anything. In fact, Tauriel could have been a good non-canon female character; a strong, brave character to give females, including myself, someone to look up to, and root for.

Agreed, although we were always going to get a romance injected into the story, probably to tick the "Blockbuster requirements" box... It's worth remembering that the initial casting call included "Itaril" - an Elf of Mirkwood who was in love with an Elf lord (apparently of Rivendell from the male role description!) This was when GdT was still at the helm.

[ITARIL] FEMALE, A WOODLAND ELF, this character is one the Silvan Elves. The Silvan Elves are seen as more earthy and practical. Shorter than other elves, she is still quick and lithe and physically adept, being able to fight with both sword and bow. Showing promise as a fighter at a young age, ITARIL was chosen to train to become part of the Woodland King’s Guard. This is the only life she has ever expected to live, until she meets and secretly falls in love with a young ELF LORD. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may also be required. LEAD. AGE: 17-27. ACCENT – STANDARD R.P.

[ELF WARRIOR] An ELF-LORD of RIVENDELL. Tall and good-looking, he is very athletic and comes from a noble family. Wry and dry, with a sharp sense of humour, when forced into battle however, he is deadly with both sword and bow. Like all his race, he is a master horseman. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may be required. LEAD. AGE: 20-30. ACCENT - STANDARD R.P.

http://www.movies.spoilertv.com/2010/01/hobbit-casting-call.html

I think I'm right in saying that Tauriel only emerged after PJ took over. PB has admitted that they always wanted to expand on the Gimli-Galadriel relationship so that was the basis for the Tauriel/Kili storyline. Aiden Turner initially auditioned as an Elf so I guess he was always slated for the romantic "lead."

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=582284358492897&permPage=1

[Voronwe_the_Faithful]

Most probably, although I was and remain suspicious about the veracity of that casting call. But assuming that it is accurate, I can only guess at the flights of fancy that they were considering with this Rivendell Elf Lord romantic lead. I dislike a lot of the Tauriel Kili romance (particularly Kili's "you make me feel alive" but at least it makes sense that a Dwarf of the company of Thorin would encounter an Elf from Mirkwood. Having some kind of a romance between an Elf of Mirkwood and an Elf Lord of Rivendell would have required some bizarre manipulations of the story.

Maybe we'll find out if the book/DVD that Jackson and Boyens talked about regarding Guillermo's version ever comes to fruition (don't count on it).