If Sauron can....

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If Sauron can....

Postby Shadowman82 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:06 pm

This is from the movies point of view only but if Sauron can move as fast as he does in Battle of the five armies when Galadriel drives him away what exactly prevented him from travelling to Mount Doom in Return of the King when he becomes aware of Frodo and the Ring at that speed ?
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby ngaur » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:16 am

Maybe it was Galadriels power that gave him this velocity.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby darthgandalf99 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:22 am

My answer/solution is that Sauron in the LOTR films is presented as being less...ephemeral....than in TH. The EYE appears fixed atop Barad Dur and the Palantir vision with Aragorn and Arwen seems to suggest the possibility that he may have taken on physical form (perhaps with the Eye being a metaphysical projection of his self).
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby oldtoby » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:00 pm

it had been 60 years or so, Sauron ate too many donuts over the years and by the time of FOTR he was too fat to go fast.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Shadowman82 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:20 pm

I think this is probably just something Jackson and co overlooked personally . For me the more mobile Sauron of the Hobbit films is much more satisfying than the stationary eye on top of Baradur in the LOTR films . I also like how in the Hobbit films Sauron actually appears as a form in the flaming eye rather than just being an eye .

In the novels Sauron had a body by the time of ROTK so there it makes sense that he would have sent the Nazgul to Mount Doom rather than go himself as they could have gotten there much faster than him on their winged beasts . But yeah in terms of the movies it doesn't quite make sense .
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Billobob » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:38 am

I believe that since Sauron did not have enough time to react (by reacting I mean sending the Nazgul) and he couldn't attack Frodo himself since he was immaterial.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby ngaur » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:01 pm

and he couldn't attack Frodo himself since he was immaterial.


A curious statement. Leaving aside the validity of this, did you refer to Sauron or Frodo?
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Billobob » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:55 am

I meant Sauron was immaterial, but as for the validity I am reasonably sure since Sauron is never "material" in the books or the movies (at least in the third age). Also to prove the validity of his slow reaction in the books- probably the return of the King-(I don't have any actual quotes yet, sorry) that Sauron would never suppose in his darkest dreams that they would try to destroy the ring that Sauron actually thought that Aragorn was trying to usurp him as a dark lord (by using the ring). So this shows that he was unprepared for the destruction of the ring and that he was probably immaterial. This is my best explanation, but it may just be true that this is a plot hole like with the Eagles.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby solicitr » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:20 am

Because irritable lighthouses can't move fast.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Billobob » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:25 am

Well I'm not sure if you're joking or not but in the lord of the rings (the books) It never mentions Sauron as being confined to his tower so that's why I'm betting on the unprepared argument. But this could just be a plot hole.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Gadget2 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:55 pm

Billobob wrote:I meant Sauron was immaterial, but as for the validity I am reasonably sure since Sauron is never "material" in the books or the movies (at least in the third age). Also to prove the validity of his slow reaction in the books- probably the return of the King-(I don't have any actual quotes yet, sorry) that Sauron would never suppose in his darkest dreams that they would try to destroy the ring that Sauron actually thought that Aragorn was trying to usurp him as a dark lord (by using the ring). So this shows that he was unprepared for the destruction of the ring and that he was probably immaterial. This is my best explanation, but it may just be true that this is a plot hole like with the Eagles.



This is not true with regard to the books. Sauron was indeed very material in the books (the movie is another matter) and had a physical form. Indeed Tolkien stated this on more than on occasion, and the reason why the Nazgul were sent when Frodo claimed the Ring was to delay Frodo and lure him out until Sauron himself could come (Evidently he didn't have a flying mount for himself, or he would have to get it out and "kick the tires a bit" :) ) How easily he could slip back and forth between a physical form and a "spirit" (or walk unclad as Tolkien sometimes puts it) remains debatable, but it seems that it took some effort and energy to do so, if he could still do it at all.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Billobob » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:06 pm

Gadget2 said:This is not true with regard to the books. Sauron was indeed very material in the books (the movie is another matter) and had a physical form. Indeed Tolkien stated this on more than on occasion, and the reason why the Nazgul were sent when Frodo claimed the Ring was to delay Frodo and lure him out until Sauron himself could come


Interesting, well as for the books my Sauron being immaterial theory is bunk so it must be that he was either unprepared or it's just a plot hole. Thanks for eliminating one possible explanation Gadget2 now we're closer to either knowing (or knowing there's nothing to know) why Sauron didn't stop Frodo. Thanks :). Actually I had kind of forgotten about this thread.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Gadget2 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:30 pm

Thank you Bilobob, but I'm not sure what you mean by why Sauron didn't stop Frodo meaning he was unprepared or a plot hole? Was he unprepared for someone to make it all the way to the very heart of his realm in Mt. Doom with the One Ring without his knowledge? Undoubtedly so. I believe one of the main themes of the book is that this option did not occur to him, and was rather unlikely to begin with. I don't see it as a plot hole at all. Or are you referring to the movies? Then maybe so.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby ngaur » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:28 am

Billobob wrote:
Gadget2 said:This is not true with regard to the books. Sauron was indeed very material in the books (the movie is another matter) and had a physical form. Indeed Tolkien stated this on more than on occasion, and the reason why the Nazgul were sent when Frodo claimed the Ring was to delay Frodo and lure him out until Sauron himself could come


Interesting, well as for the books my Sauron being immaterial theory is bunk so it must be that he was either unprepared or it's just a plot hole. Thanks for eliminating one possible explanation Gadget2 now we're closer to either knowing (or knowing there's nothing to know) why Sauron didn't stop Frodo. Thanks :). Actually I had kind of forgotten about this thread.



I don't think you can use the book to explain such a plot hole in the movie. And movie Sauron was in any case present enough to attack Gandalf in Dol Guldur, and could have done the same to Frodo of course. On the other hand I don't think there is a plot hole at all since the Hobbit movie make it clear enough (I think) that Sauron can't move that fast. He was beeing driven out. That's what produced the velocity. Or if not Galadriel was eating Uranium for nothing.

That's not to say there aren't plot holes aplenty in the movies. Just this one ain't
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Billobob » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:36 am

Gadget2 said:
Was he unprepared for someone to make it all the way to the very heart of his realm in Mt. Doom with the One Ring without his knowledge?


Yes and that Sauron had never considered the fact that the free people's of middle earth would try to destroy the one ring he thought they would try to use the ring to destroy Sauron.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Gadget2 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:25 am

It's not like the 'free peoples' of Middle-earth could just take it to the local smithy and destroy it. Sauron thought it beyond any will, even his own, to willfully harm the One Ring. So, in Sauron's mind, even if they did want to destroy it, the only way to do so was to enter the heart of his realm and place it in the fire where it was made; and that they could not do without a major military campaign that had little likelihood of success. Infiltration was even less likely. The very nature of the Ring itself would eventually betray its user to him and tempt that user with its power. He had seen it all before over the ages, and people like Saruman and Denethor confirmed his views. So, yes an oversight; as Gandalf said: if he would have bent all his strength into guarding his realm and making it impenetrable, then indeed would their task have been hopeless. But it is not like it was easy to get in to Mordor, even so. It still required a great deal of providence to make it. Gandalf also said he did not get where he was by playing defense only, so striking out against any potential Ringlord was a good play.

So, in the end, yes an oversight on Sauron's part, but hardly the 'plot hole' that it is made at to be.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Billobob » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:48 am

Yes I said the possibility of plot hole but I had put more stock with Sauron being unprepared. By the way thanks for the comment about providence that's interesting.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby jsavfusco » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:50 am

In the little known, underrated Tolkien movie called "Nothing Quiet on the Western Front" it is made clear that Sauron's attention was bent on the defeat of the men of the west. With an overwhelming force, and thinking the situation well in hand, Sauron was brimming with overconfidence and having plastic surgery at the moment, (ya know all those years without physical form and all can really wear on one's looks). Thus, he was forced to send the Nazgul.
Last edited by jsavfusco on Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:56 am

A jsav sighting! Cool!
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby jsavfusco » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Yeah, I pop my head every now and then Voronwe. How are you doing?
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:35 am

Still here, apparently. At least occasionally.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Billobob » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:31 am

I think we gotten this issue solved unless anyone else anything to add :).
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby heliona » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:02 pm

Billobob, you'll learn that people can speculate for years - this thread will probably keep going for ages. Don't worry about it. :)
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Billobob » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:37 pm

"
heliona said:
Billobob, you'll learn that people can speculate for years - this thread will probably keep going for ages. Don't worry about it. :)


Well there is a point where speculation turns from educated guesses to just pure fancy. I thing we're almost at that point.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby heliona » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:48 pm

Pure fancy often keeps this website going. :D Besides, it's not like anything is going to stop people posting to the thread - threads don't get locked for reasons like that.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Billobob » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:52 pm

No I'm just saying that soon there won't be a need to continue to post on this thread since we've probably shown all the likely answers
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby heliona » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:57 pm

Except that someone might come up with yet another idea. :D

Billobob, there's just no real need to point it out - it's a pointless activity. Threads where everyone has said all they want to say just drift down to the bottom, where they stay until someone revives them for whatever reason.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Billobob » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:03 pm

Good point. I'm not trying to stop this thread. So I'll just keep quiet on this thread until someone comes with a new point.
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Shadowman82 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:45 pm

It's safe to assume that Sauron when he realized where Frodo was must have thought that the Nazgul could get to Mount Doom faster than he could or he would have gone himself .
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Re: If Sauron can....

Postby Billobob » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:41 am

Shadowman82 wrote:It's safe to assume that Sauron when he realized where Frodo was must have thought that the Nazgul could get to Mount Doom faster than he could or he would have gone himself .


Probably or it was just a last spasm action with no thought put into it just borne out of terror and desperation.
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