The Official Quenya Translation Thread II

Tolkien's worlds were birthed out of his love of language and his work at creating new ones. Enter into discussions surrounding Tolkien's languages.

The Official Quenya Translation Thread II

Postby Gladhaniel » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:19 am

Hello everyone!

Welcome to the Official Quenya Translation Thread II, the space where you can post your translation requests or your questions concerning Quenya. :D

As its name indicates, this thread is the second of the sort: the previous Quenya translation thread was beginning to get huge, and for that reason it became necessary to close it an start it anew. Please do not post anything in the first thread.

Here is information and tips for you to read. I suggest you take a close look at the section Quenya vs. Neo-Quenya, especially if you are requesting something you want to get tattooed. :)

I tried not to forget anything. However, if you have any questions or concerns that have been left unanswered, don't hesitate to ask! I might then add the answer to this first post so that everyone gets to see it. :D

    ABOUT QUENYA
CHARACTERISTICS

~ one of the two major Elvish languages developed by J.R.R. Tolkien (the other one being Sindarin)
~ resembles Finnish and Latin
~ Tolkien's favourite language and the one he developed the most
~ melodic, fluid and musical
~ arguably easier to learn than Sindarin, although it still has its difficulties and complexities
~ has a corpus of around 2,500 words
~ possesses incomplete and often uncertain grammar and vocabulary, which causes limitations in the use of the language
~ can be mastered to a satisfying level, although it can never be used as an every day language
~ probably more adapted for poetry, songs and writings of all sorts than for conversation/speaking

AUDIO EXAMPLES

Read by Tolkien

Namárië
Words in The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit

Read by Tolkien fans or scholars

Ninqueldan
The Markirya Poem

Soundtrack from The Lord of the Rings

A Moth in Isengard
Climbing the Stairs at Caras Galadhon
Elendil's Oath
Entering Lórien (0:28)
Galadriel's Mirror
Isildur's Account of the Ring
Lament for Haldir
Leaving Lórien
Prologue — Alternate
Seduction of Aragorn
Sméagol & Déagol's Seduction
The Argonath
The Battle of the Maiar (1:13)
The Three Hunters Chase the Uruk-hai
The Wounding of Boromir

IN TOLKIEN'S UNIVERSE

Quenya, also called High-elven, is inspired from and in many regards alike Primitive Elvish, the ancient Elvish tongue of Valinor spoken by the Valar (powerful and angelic spirits of goodness). It contains several words that were adapted or taken from Primitive Elvish, and its sound and grammar partly come from alterations of the Valar's tongue as well.

The beginnings of Quenya are dated back to the Years of the Trees, which occurred before the First Age — it is, therefore, a very old tongue. In Aman (the Undying Lands), there were two Quenya dialects called Vanyarin and Noldorin; they were spoken by the Vanyar, the Noldor, the Valar and the Maiar. Only Noldorin, however, is used in Middle-earth by the Noldor.

IN THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND THE HOBBIT

By the Third Age, when the events of The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit take place, Quenya is not an every day language anymore. It is only used by Elves or by descendants of the Númenóreans in ceremonies, poetry, songs, writings or other formal occasions.

Peter Jackson's cinematographic adaptations of the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit books contain several short passages in Quenya, although these are far less numerous than the Sindarin bits.

In An Unexpected Journey

Radagast: Cementari celvameldë, sí a hlarë ómaquettar. Lerya laman naiquentallo, na coilerya envinyanta!
"Yavanna friend of animals, now hear the words of my voice. Free the animal from its[?] sharp pain, be its life renewed!"

In The Desolation of Smaug

Gandalf: Cé ná ulco sís nurtaina… I ettuluvas caninyë!
"Evil may be hidden here... I order that it shall come forth!"

Gandalf: Cánin i sá tanuvaxë!
"I command that it shall reveal itself!"

In The Fellowship of the Ring

Saruman: Cuiva nwalca Carnirassë! Nai yarvaxëa rasselya taltuva ñotto-carinnar!
"Wake up, cruel Redhorn! May it be [that] your blood-stained horn shall fall upon the heads of the enemy!"

Gandalf: Ando Eldarinwa a lasta quettanya, Fenda Casarinwa!
"Gate of Elves, listen to my word, Threshold of Dwarves!"

Galadriel: Namárië.
"Farewell."

In The Return of the King

Frodo Baggins: Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima!
"Hail Eärendil, brightest of the stars!"

Aragorn: Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
"Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place I will abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."

ONLINE RESOURCES

Ambar Eldaron: Gwaith i Phethdain
Ardalambion
A Tolkien Dictionary
Council of Elrond
Glǽmscrafu
Lambë Eldaiva
Mellonath Daeron
Nólë Parma Lambeo Areldava
Parf Edhellen
Parma Tyelpelassiva
Quenya 101
Real Elvish
Sindanórië
The Elvish Linguistic Fellowship

    THE OFFICIAL QUENYA TRANSLATION THREAD II
ABOUT THE TRANSLATOR

I'm currently the only person taking care of Quenya translations on TheOneRing.com on a regular basis. I've been working in this thread (and the previous one) since July 2011. Here is my contact information:

Gladhaniel {contact here or @ mariannellarose@gmail.com}

If you are good at Quenya and want to give a hand at translations, either occasionally or regularly, don't hesitate to contact me or to leave a post in this thread! New translators are welcome.

WHAT YOU CAN ASK ME

Translation English → Quenya
~ I usually take requests in English, but demands in French, German or Swedish can probably be managed if needed.
~ Please consider giving me any useful information/detail, such as specifications regarding the sought meaning, that might help me fulfill your request more easily and quickly.

Translation Quenya → English
~ If you want me to proofread an attempt you made at translating, please mention the meaning you were aiming at.
~ If you found a translation somewhere and would like me to tell you what it means, would you happen to have the source of the passage, or any other information that might help me figure out the main idea of the Quenya text? Translations found on the internet are not always good, and they can be difficult to untangle without context.

Anything Quenya (explanation, information...)
~ If you would like to know something about the language, it will be a pleasure to try to help you out. I might not be able to answer everything, of course, but I will do my best!

IMPORTANT

Please have patience and understanding. :) I enjoy doing translations and helping out, but I also have a life outside TheOneRing.com and cannot always answer requests as fast as I would like to. This said, be assured that I do try my best to be quick! I generally answer within one or two days.

WHEN YOU ARE READY TO REQUEST

You can do so by clicking on 'Post a Reply', which is located at the top-left and bottom-left corners of the page. Do NOT click on 'Post New Topic': this will create another thread, and we try to avoid the scattering of requests as much as possible.

    FOR A TATTOO
SOME TIPS

When choosing the language you want to get tattooed (or transcribed into tengwar and then tattooed), you might want to think about the following points:
~ what languages you like and find beautiful and inspiring
~ what those languages mean to you; the effects or emotions they inspire
~ how your perception of those languages can be related to the meaning of your tattoo
~ what language would best convey the message you wish your tattoo to have

Quenya, for instance, can be associated with beauty, aestheticism, purity, immortality or nobility. It all depends on one's personal view.
If you're looking for a tattoo in an Elvish language but find that Quenya does not fit your taste, why not consider Sindarin? You can request Sindarin translations in this thread.

WHEN YOU ARE READY TO REQUEST

You can do so by clicking on 'Post a Reply', which is located at the top-left and bottom-left corners of the page. Do NOT click on 'Post New Topic': this will create another thread, and we try to avoid the scattering of requests as much as possible.

IF YOU WANT A TRANSLATION TO BE TRANSCRIBED

For a transcription into tengwar, please post your request in the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread (and don't forget to read the first post to know how to make your demand properly!).

    QUENYA VS. NEO-QUENYA
MAKING THE DISTINCTION

As has been mentioned before, Quenya is a constructed Elvish language designed by one man. Unfortunately, since Tolkien is not here anymore to develop Quenya further and to answer our questions about it, it remains an incomplete language full of gaps and interrogations left unanswered.

In a context such as this thread, where new and sometimes modern sentences, phrases or words are regularly translated, it becomes difficult to stick entirely to the original Quenya language as developed by Tolkien. I deeply respect Tolkien's work and wish to alter it as little as possible; however, I am sometimes forced to stray away from Tolkien's canon material in order to be able to fulfill the requests I receive.

You should be aware that what most people (including I) are doing nowadays on the internet is not pure Quenya, but rather Neo-Quenya. This means that I must often make interpretations, extrapolations and conclusions that are my own. I work from Tolkien's original Quenya, but I absolutely do not claim to know the language as imagined by Tolkien, and what I ultimately provide in this thread is merely my personal take on what I believe is the most accurate and respectful interpretation of pure Quenya. I try to develop the language so it can be used in a modern context, while keeping as much as possible to its original spirit.

It is important that you keep those facts in mind, particularly when it comes to matters of importance such as tattoo designs. Please also note the following:

My translations are subjective; therefore, they may contain errors or be debatable among those who study Quenya. If you are to get anything tattooed, you have to accept the risk of error/inaccuracy the inking of my translation represents; I do not take responsibility for any eventual error.

This said, I simply want you to be aware of the issues surrounding Quenya so you can take a well-informed decision. :) The choice lies in your hands!

COURSE OF ACTION IN THE OQTT

To make it easier for you to see where canon ends and personal interpretation begins, here is what I intend to do (as of 11 February, 2012):

~ The elements in my translations that come from a known source (be it Tolkien himself or a Quenya scholar/linguist) will be indicated accordingly when I judge it necessary. Technically, anything that is not annotated with a source should be assumed to be either a personal interpretation from the translator, material from an unknown source, or an element whose source I thought unnecessary to mention.
~ Sources will be indicated with a system of codes, so that I don't have to give full names every time. This code corresponds in majority to already established abbreviations I took directly from Helge Fauskanger's Ardalambion (with minor modifications made).
~ I might at some point give a source that is not included in the following list. If you notice this and would like to know what the abbreviation means, please ask. However, since some abbreviations given on Ardalambion are not explained, I might not be able to give you further details.
~ Please note that the source list is subject to change.

Canon/primary sources (directly from Tolkien)

LotR: The Lord of the Rings
Silm: The Silmarillion
UT: Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth
MC: The Monsters and the Critics and other Essays
MR: Morgoth's Ring
LR: The Lost Road
Etym: The Etymologies (in LR:347-400)
FS: Fíriel's Song (in LR:72)
RGEO: The Road Goes Ever On
RS: Return of the Shadow
TI: The Treason of Isengard
WJ: The War of the Jewels
PM: The Peoples of Middle-earth
Letters:The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien
LT1: The Book of Lost Tales 1
LT2: The Book of Lost Tales 2
Nam: Namárië (in LotR:398)
CO: Cirion's Oath and its commentary in UT:305, 317
EO: Elendil's Oath (in LotR:1003, 1004)
Arct: "Arctic" sentence (in The Father Christmas Letters)
Markirya: the Markirya Poem and its commentary in MC:221-223
GL: Gnomish Lexicon (in PE #11)
QL: Qenya Lexicon (in PE #12)
PE: Parma Eldalamberon
VT: Vinyar Tengwar

Indicated between {swirly brackets}.
Mostly given as follows: abbreviation:page number(s) (with an additional number when a specific volume or publication is concerned)

Non-canon/secondary sources (from scholars and linguists)

HKF: Helge K. Fauskanger (including the Word Lists and the Quenya Affixes)
TR: Thorsten Renk
NPLA: Nólë Parma Lambeo Areldava
CoE: CouncilOfElrond (including the Verb Chart and the Elvish Name Database)
RE: RealElvish.net (particularly the part on Quenya Name Suffixes)

Indicated between [brackets].

    UPDATES
25 DECEMBER 2012


Since July 2012, Vea mi olori has been absent from this thread because of other obligations and Gladhaniel has been taking care of almost all translations. Consequently, the requests between then and now have not been double-checked by a second translator. This situation will remain until Vea mi olori finds the time to come back; but everything suggests he will return at some point. In the meantime, would you feel a very strong need to have a translation verified by him, you can contact either of us and we will make it work for you.

9 JANUARY 2013

Vea mi olori just came back to this thread to start doing translation again! :) So we'll once more be two to give you a hand with Quenya, and to double-check each other's translations.

29 FEBRUARY 2013

A new online resource has been added to this post, as well as a number of audio examples and some Quenya lines from The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey.

24 AUGUST 2013

Unfortunately, Vea mi olori will not be working as a regular Quenya translator in the OQTT anymore. Gladhaniel will be taking care of all requests, and the latter will not be verified or commented by anybody else, unless a Quenya learner comes by to help.

31 DECEMBER 2013

Thanks to new information that has come up, I updated the Quenya lines from the two Hobbit movies. :)

1 AUGUST 2014

Since I'll be travelling and starting studies abroad within the next weeks, I'll be less active than usual during the month of August. Sorry for the inconvenience! I promise to check in as frequently as I can.

30 JULY 2016

I unfortunately won't be able to check this thread as regularly as usual during the next few weeks because I'll be moving to Denmark temporarily. However, do feel free to send in requests — I'll get to them as quickly as possible. :)
Last edited by Gladhaniel on Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:53 am, edited 20 times in total.
User avatar
Gladhaniel
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: Québec, Canada
Top

Postby Gladhaniel » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:42 am

Here is my take on Litraya's request from the previous Quenya thread. :)

Vea mi olori wrote:Litraya,As agile as the wind
Sívë tyelca i súrë

Tyelcaalso has connotations of "swift" as well as "agile", so it fits the meaning of your phrase quite well.

I'm not sure about the use of sívë here. I think it should be placed in the middle of the sentence ("agile as the wind"), therefore giving tyelca sívë i súrë. However, maybe tambë could be used instead of sívë if one wants to imply that the wind is remote.
User avatar
Gladhaniel
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: Québec, Canada
Top

Postby nooij » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:29 pm

Hello everyone,

I have been looking for someone who is willing to translate a certain text that I use for non-commercial linguistic research to Quenya. I was hoping that someone here would be willing to help me. It'd be highly appreciated. The text is:

,,When I was five years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key of life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down "happy". They told me I didn't understand the assignment and I told them they didn't understand life."

Thanks for your time!
nooij
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:25 pm
Top

Postby Litraya » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:13 pm

I really hate to do this now that both of you have worked on it. Sorry :(. But I wasn't really going for agile or swift.

Supple: bending readily without breaking or becoming deformed; pliant; flexible.

I was looking for more of that flexible meaning, than speed.

Sorry if I'm not making sense.
Litraya
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:17 pm
Top

Postby Vea mi olori » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:26 pm

Litraya

Don't worry, you're making perfect sense; it's just difficult to get the right words given Quenya's limited vocabulary. I went off "supple" as being "agile"; it's a possible meaning, but not the one you wanted.Not sure we'll get 100% fit for what you're after, but we'll try.

"Pliant" ismaxa, although this also means "soft", andmaxëmeans "dough", so I think they're related conceptually/idiomatically in Quenya. Given that, I don't think that's quite what you're after either.

As far as other constructions suggesting flexible go, we have the verblav-meaning "to yield, allow", which can be made into an adjective of sorts by forming lávima, but I'm not sure that exactly fits. It strictly speaking would mean "yieldable" as in "able to be yielded", which is sort of what you're after but it doesn't really make sense if put back literally to English.

nooij, I'm working on yours.
User avatar
Vea mi olori
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Norfolk, UK
Top

Postby Vea mi olori » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:26 pm

nooij

I've done some work on the quote you gave, but I'm not completely happy with parts of it. I've got a version that's as close to the Lennon original as I can get, and one version that I think suits Quenya phraseology better.

In the first place, we have:

When I was five years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the [answer to] life. When I went to [booklearning-place]*, they asked me [that which/what] I wanted to be when I [was not a child]**. I wrote*** "happy".**** They told me I didn't understand the [question]***** and I told them they didn't understand life."

Irë anen lempë, amilinya illumë quentesenyë i máriessë né i tóquet cuilenna. Irë lenden parnómënna, maquententen tai mernë návë irë únen hína. Tencen “valin”. Quententen uan carnë hanya i cenÞë****** ar quentenyet uantë carnë hanya cuilë.

*No direct Quenya word for "school", this is the best composite I could manage.
**Most of the "growth" words in Quenya relate to specific times, plants or conditions. There is no "growing up", so again, I substituted this.
*** There is no Quenya word for "down" in the sense of "write down", so I got rid of it.
****Valindoes translate directly as "happy", so I've included it here. However, there are indications that Tolkien later abandoned happy as a meaning for the stemvala-, so I've used a different word in the second text.
*****There is no word for "assignment", or yet a direct one for "question". I've usedcenÞeas a related derivative from the stemceÞ, meaning "to search for something, to examine something" , here expressed in the past tense. I think the gerund fits better here, so I've included it in the version below.
******Þ is here pronounced "s"; it's used to indicate a different tengwa (Elvish letter) than the usual one for "s".

And the second version, tweaked a little bit more to sound better for Quenya:

When I was in my fifth year, my mother was ever telling me that happiness is the [answer to] life. When I went to [booklearning-place], they asked me [that which/what] I wanted to be when I [am not a child]. I wrote "joyful". They told me I didn't understand the [examining/searching] and I told them they didn't understand life."

Irë loa lempëanen, amilinya úlumë quetëasenyë i máriessë ná i tóquet cuilenna. Irë lenden parnómënna, maquententen tai mernë návë irë uin hína. Tencen “alassinqua”[?]. Quententen uan carnë hanya i ceÞië* ar quentenyet uantë carnë hanya cuilë.

*CeÞiëhere meaning "the searching/enquiring/examining in order to find something", expressed as a gerund (a verb acting like a noun) rather than the past tense.

Hope this helps. Any more questions, just ask. and wait for an opinion from Gladhaniel! There's several ifs and buts to this translation, so a second opinion is recommended!
User avatar
Vea mi olori
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Norfolk, UK
Top

Postby Litraya » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:45 pm

Oh well. It was a long shot given how uncomplete Quenya is.

Gladhaniel and Vea mi olori, thank you so much for your efforts.

I'll just have the English transcribed. Thanks again :)
Litraya
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:17 pm
Top

Postby Litraya » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:01 pm

Actually if you could see about one more thing for me?

My little sister who passed away. Her name: Amelia

Can that be translated?
Litraya
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:17 pm
Top

Postby nooij » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:04 pm

Wow thank you so much for this wonderful translation, Vea mi olori! :o

Both translations look very good. It does not matter that the translation had to be tweaked a bit in order to make sense in the Quenya language. With the great comprehensive explanation, which you have provided me with along with both translations, I'll learn exactly as much from these translations as I was hoping to, if not more. :wink:

If any questions come up, I will be sure to ask them, but so far you've answered all questions that could possibly emerge in my mind with the explanations in your post.

Indeed, I'll wait for a second opinion, but so far I have full confidence in the correctness of your translation.

Again, thank you very much!! :)
nooij
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:25 pm
Top

Postby jaymee » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:20 pm

Hello all! HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

I'm thinking of having a tattoo done very soon. In Quenya.

I'd like the words Dreamer and Starlight to be translated. Understand that Dream is ólor. What about Dreamer. Also, Starlight?

I was also wondering if there are any meaningful words in Quenya that I can consider. Ah sorry for the string of questions. Appreciate all the help!!!! :)
jaymee
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:31 am
Top

Postby Vea mi olori » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:05 am

jaymee

I can't find any word for "dreamer", nor a direct method to make a verb into a "verb-doer" noun (e.g. run into runner, work into worker etc). But I can put together a compound that means more or less that -oloriquenis "dreaming-person".

You're quite spoilt for choice over "starlight", we haveilma,ilmarëwhich is used as a feminine name meaing starlight and refers to a maia. There is alsosilmë, which refers specifically to the light of Telepirion (one of the Two Trees of Valinor) and is also a poetic word for "silver" as well as meaning starlight.

As for other meaningful things, all words have meaning. It's just a matter of choosing words that mean something particular for you, and then we can see if there's a Quenya equivalent.

Litraya

Amelia cannot be translated itself; what we normally do with names is translate the meaning into Quenya, rather than trying to "Quenyanise" the sound, which I guess could be done, but I've never seen it done anywhere.

Amelia is derived from a Hebrew phrase meaning "work of the Lord". I can't find any words meaning "work" at the moment, and everything for "labour" is similar to words linked to slavery. The best word I can find iscurwë, "craft", which would make "Craft of the Lord"Erucurwë. The genitive case ending doesn't seem to apply to "of the Lord" phrases, which is a bit weird, but it seems to be done consistently in Quenya. Wait and see what Gladhaniel comes up with, she might find somehting better than I could think of.
User avatar
Vea mi olori
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Norfolk, UK
Top

Postby Gladhaniel » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:53 am

nooij:

Let's do this sentence by sentence. :D

Vea mi olori wrote:When I was five years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the [answer to] life.
Irë anen lempë*, amilinya* illumë quentesenyë* i máriessë* né i tóquet* cuilenna.

When I was in my fifth year, my mother was ever telling me that happiness is the [answer to] life.
Irë loa lempëanen*, amilinya* úlumë quetëasenyë* i máriessë* ná i tóquet* cuilenna.


*I wouldn’t use constructions such as Irë anen lempë, because I find them to be too literal. I like "when I was in my fifth year" better, but I must admit I don’t quite understand how you translated it. I think I would say something like Irë nén mi lempëa loanya.
*Apparently emya is the attested Quenya for "my mother" (Vinyar Tengwar 48:19), so I would rather go with that one.
*I would translate "told me" as quentë nin. Quentë is the attested past tense of quet-, and ni (possibly used as object me in Tolkien's later conception) can be combined with the dative ending to mean "to me."
*I read that máriessë is the locative of márië good(ness), as in the phrase (Hara) máriessë ("(Stay) in happiness"), so I would be enclined to think it rather means "in happiness." Alassë joy, merriment might be better here, I think.
*I believe tóquet- is a verb, so I don't think it works.. But I have no other idea to propose, unfortunately. :(

Irë nén(yë) mi lempëa loanya, emya illumë/úlumë quentë nin i alassë [***]
When I was in my fifth year, my mother always/ever told to me that joy [...]

Vea mi olori wrote:When I went to [booklearning-place], they asked me [that which/what] I wanted to be when I [was not a child].
Irë lenden parnómënna*, maquententen* tai mernë* návë* irë únen* hína.

When I went to [booklearning-place], they asked me [that which/what] I wanted to be when I [am not a child].
Irë lenden parnómënna*, maquententen* tai mernë* návë* irë uin* hína.

*So parnómë basically means "learn-place"? I guess it is okay, but since I often prefer not to create compounds I would also suggest nómë st(y)awa place of knowledge. Though, I'm not sure about the best way to render of in this context.. I chose the possessive, but this might not be the best choice.
*Personally, I would seperate "they asked" and "to me," as I feel that either a pronoun or the dative case is missing in what you wrote, and putting everything together would be confusing. It would give maquententë nin.
*I believe there's no pronoun here! What about mernen(yë)?
*For the infinitive of to be, why návë? I'd be more inclined to think it would simply be ná, but I believe we have no attested example for that, so I don't feel comfortable about it. I can't really come up with another alternative, though..
*Isn't the past tense of not be/not do úmë, therefore giving úmen(yë)? I also hesitate between the present and the past tense here.

Irë lenden(yë) i nómenna st(y)awa, maquententë nin tai mernen(yë) ná[??] irë uin(yë)/úmen(yë) hína.
When I went to the place of knowledge, they asked (to) me what I wanted to be when I am/was not a child.

Vea mi olori wrote:I wrote "happy". They told me I didn't understand the [question] and I told them they didn't understand life."
Tencen "valin".* Quententen* uan* carnë* hanya i cenÞë* ar quentenyet uantë* carnë* hanya cuilë.

I wrote "joyful". They told me I didn't understand the [examining/searching] and I told them they didn't understand life."
Tencen "alassinqua"[?].* Quententen* uan* carnë* hanya i ceÞië* ar quentenyet uantë* carnë* hanya cuilë.


*It's true that valin, as originally related to the noun Valar, might not be valid in LotR-style Quenya. But I'm not convinced about alassinqua.. And alassëa is apparently used by some for happiness; but I don't believe it comes from Tolkien. So ultimately, I think I would stick to valin, as it seems to be the only word from Tolkien.
*Similarly to the second sentence, here I would write quententë nin.
*Here I would probably go with úmen(yë)/úmentë. Again, see sentence two!
*Why carnë?
*What about centa enquiry? It also means essay, I believe, but at least it's a Tolkien word. I'm not quite sure the meaning fits though..

Tencen(yë) "valin." Quententë nin i úmen(yë) hanya i centa ar quentenyet i úmentë hanya cuilë.
I wrote "happy." They told (to) me that I didn't understand the inquiry and I told them that they didn't understand life.
User avatar
Gladhaniel
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: Québec, Canada
Top

Postby Gladhaniel » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:54 am

Litraya:

Vea mi olori wrote:"Pliant" ismaxa, although this also means "soft", andmaxëmeans "dough", so I think they're related conceptually/idiomatically in Quenya. Given that, I don't think that's quite what you're after either.

As far as other constructions suggesting flexible go, we have the verblav-meaning "to yield, allow", which can be made into an adjective of sorts by forming lávima, but I'm not sure that exactly fits. It strictly speaking would mean "yieldable" as in "able to be yielded", which is sort of what you're after but it doesn't really make sense if put back literally to English.

Unfortunately, I'm also unable to find a proper Quenya equivalent of the meaning of supple you are looking for. Vea's first suggestion might have been good in another context, but not really in this one, and I would say the second is too uncertain to be eligible for a tattoo; and I can't come up with any other alternative.

I see you already posted a request in the Tengwar Transcription Thread, but in case you'd still like to have "Amelia" in Quenya:

Vea mi olori wrote:Amelia cannot be translated itself; what we normally do with names is translate the meaning into Quenya, rather than trying to "Quenyanise" the sound, which I guess could be done, but I've never seen it done anywhere.

Amelia is derived from a Hebrew phrase meaning "work of the Lord". I can't find any words meaning "work" at the moment, and everything for "labour" is similar to words linked to slavery. The best word I can find iscurwë, "craft", which would make "Craft of the Lord"Erucurwë. The genitive case ending doesn't seem to apply to "of the Lord" phrases, which is a bit weird, but it seems to be done consistently in Quenya. Wait and see what Gladhaniel comes up with, she might find somehting better than I could think of.

For "Amelia," CouncilOfElrond gives names coming from móta- labour, toil. I believe using that word would be okay, because I found "laborious" and "striving" as etymologies of Germanic origin for the name. However, I also came up with "work of the Lord" for the etymology of Hebraic origin. So I guess it comes down to what you prefer!

Regarding the Hebraic alternative, Vea's suggestion Erucurwë does seem to be good, even though it literally means "Lord-craft." I believe adding a case ending or a gender ending would not be proper in a name involving Eru; it is probably much safer to stick to the construction of attested examples. :)

As for the Germanic etymology, I would suggest Mótallë, Mótamë or Mótarë. They should all mean "female who labours/toils." Perhaps Mótë would also work as a feminized version of "labour/toil"?
User avatar
Gladhaniel
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: Québec, Canada
Top

Postby Gladhaniel » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:55 am

jaymee:

Vea mi olori wrote:I can't find any word for "dreamer", nor a direct method to make a verb into a "verb-doer" noun (e.g. run into runner, work into worker etc). But I can put together a compound that means more or less that -oloriquenis "dreaming-person".

Why put an i between olor and quen? I think the consonant cluster rqu is valid, so Olorquen should be okay. :)

I think adding a name suffix to olor or olórë is another good alternative! Here your gender becomes important.

Female:
Olorë
Olorissë
Olorindë


Male:
Olor(n)o
Olorindo
Olormo
Olór(n)ëo


Vea mi olori wrote:You're quite spoilt for choice over "starlight", we haveilma,ilmarëwhich is used as a feminine name meaing starlight and refers to a maia. There is alsosilmë, which refers specifically to the light of Telepirion (one of the Two Trees of Valinor) and is also a poetic word for "silver" as well as meaning starlight.

Seconded! :) Keep in mind also that Ilma and Ilmarë seem to me proper nouns, the latter being the name of a Maia.
User avatar
Gladhaniel
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: Québec, Canada
Top

Postby Galin » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:01 am

Ilma and Ilmare are attested in the early-ish Etymologies, when the base was GIL- which gave us Sindarin gil and (noted elsewhere in Etymologies) 'gilith = Q. ilmen'

In Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring Tolkien imagined gil as hailing from a base NGIL- with a Quenya equivalent of nille, and these words referred to the star-imagines, while elen referred to an actual star.


I note that Christopher Tolkien did not give a meaning for the relevant entry in the Silmarillion appendix, which includes these words if I recall correctly.
User avatar
Galin
Rider of the Mark
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:10 am
Top

Postby Isildilmë » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:45 am

Hi Dhani ! I just wanted to tell you that I read your intro as promised :D... I did it some days ago, but I didn't have the time to tell you. It's very compleat, wow ! I didn't go that far, but I admit our threads have different purposes... And I felt like a superstar again, thanks for talking about me ! :wink:

I see you use more colors every day, with these little * ! lol, that's wonderful, I
love colors :P.
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
User avatar
Isildilmë
Devoted to the Sheen

 
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Valinor, where else ?
Top

Postby Gladhaniel » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:52 pm

Isildilmë, I'm glad you read my post and liked it. :) Thank you very much! :D ahah It's no problem, I felt like I couldn't NOT mention you somewhere. ;)

I also love colours; besides, they are quite useful with extensive explanations. :)
User avatar
Gladhaniel
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: Québec, Canada
Top

Postby Zethaire » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:44 pm

Hey all!

tl;dr: Translating into Quenya,"Neverending hope. Everlasting peace. Infinite will." Please and thank you so much for everything that you do!

I first had the words: "Neverending hope. Everlasting peace." (just recently thought to add "infinite will" [and to further explain my direction for will: as in willpower, inner-strength, determination, etc.]) translated as "Útélima estel. Oia sére." After consulting with a different translating site, I brought it up with the wonderful Isildilmë here, who thought it best to redirect me for the word "neverending." Gladly, gladly. It would have been a blunder on my part, for sure.

Isildilmë wrote:Personnally, I see more then one way to say it. I would normally think of “Untélela” or “Untélala”, depending on if you percieve the verb “to end, to finish” as a –ë ending verb “telë” or as a primary verb “tel-” (this las possibility as been suggested, but I’m not sure about it personnaly, so I would go more for “Untélela”). I thought that when we want to ad a negative particle, it was more “uv-”, “um-” or “un-”, the last being more adapted before a “t”, while “ú-” was more to give a bad or evil meaning, which is not the case here because we just want to negate the word “ending”. And I would have used the active participle of the verb “to end” to obtain “not ending” (or “which does not end”), instead of the adjectival endind which for me gives more the sense of “not endable/not finishable” (or “that cannot be ended/finished”)… but that may be the sense you want, as it also makes sense. In that case, because of my different negative particle, I would say “Untelima”


And yes, I do agree in the sense of "not endable/not finishable," as in the hope that continues regardless, same as peace. I appreciate any feedback and/or explanation as to the conclusion you came up with. I may not be seasoned in the ways of Tolkien, but I do enjoy a bit of edumacation here and there. Thank you!
Zethaire
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:32 pm
Top

Postby jaymee » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:07 am

Hey guys!

THanks a lot for the response.
If I stick to starlight, ilmare would be good enough wouldn't it?
:)
jaymee
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:31 am
Top

Postby Vea mi olori » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:53 am

Zethaire

Here's my take on them:

Neverending hope –Untyelë estel

As far as tenses go, I've used the aorist of "to end", going for the sense of timeless and eternal action. If you wanted a more active ongoing and active sense, the present would be better, which would giveuntyéla.

Everlasting peace –Oia rainë/sérë - the two words here have slightly different meanings.sérëis peace and also glossed "rest", whereas I thinkrainëmight be the opposite of war, so to speak.

Eternal will –Oira níra

níra here means the faculty of will. If you wanted an act of will that is eternal,nirmëwould be better.

Hope this helps!

jaymee I'll think things over and get back to you in a bit.
User avatar
Vea mi olori
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Norfolk, UK
Top

Postby Zethaire » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:08 pm

Ah! That's exactly what I wanted to capture. Thanks a ton.
Zethaire
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:32 pm
Top

Postby Gladhaniel » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:37 am

jaymee:

jaymee wrote:Hey guys!

THanks a lot for the response.
If I stick to starlight, ilmare would be good enough wouldn't it?
:)

I think so, yes. :) If you haven't already, I suggest you take a look at the little comment Galin wrote about that a bit earlier in this post, it's interesting! :D It's always great to have as much information as possible about what one is getting tattooed. :)

Zethaire:

Vea mi olori wrote:Zethaire

Neverending hope –Untyelë estel

As far as tenses go, I've used the aorist of "to end", going for the sense of timeless and eternal action. If you wanted a more active ongoing and active sense, the present would be better, which would giveuntyéla.

I'm not sure about untyelë and untyéla. The way I see it, neverending should be an adjective, so I wouldn't try to construct it from a verb - unless it'd be in the form of an active participle, in which case I wouldn't even know for sure how to do the construction since the verb should be negative.

To make it simpler, I would rather suggest estel ya umë tyelë "hope that/which does not end/cease."

Vea mi olori wrote:Everlasting peace –Oia rainë/sérë - the two words here have slightly different meanings.sérëis peace and also glossed "rest", whereas I thinkrainëmight be the opposite of war, so to speak.

Eternal will –Oira níra

níra here means the faculty of will. If you wanted an act of will that is eternal,nirmëwould be better.

Seconded. :)
User avatar
Gladhaniel
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: Québec, Canada
Top

Postby Vea mi olori » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:26 am

Thanks for the heads up Gladhaniel, "Neverending" is an active participle, so my previous construction (using it as a basic verb) doesn't work. It can be formulated asan active participle as untyélala estel.

Sorry for the mistake!
Last edited by Vea mi olori on Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:30 am, edited 5 times in total.
User avatar
Vea mi olori
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Norfolk, UK
Top

Postby Vea mi olori » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:27 am

Double post
User avatar
Vea mi olori
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Norfolk, UK
Top

Postby Gladhaniel » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:53 am

I'm always a bit confused when it comes to lengthening stem-vowels to construct a verb tense. In the case of untyélala, it seems indeed like an accent should be put on e (according to the apparent rule), but the pronunciation of the word with a stress on the e sounds awkward to me. I feel that the first a should be accented instead, so it's pronounced "untyelAla." I often come up with similar interrogations in other situations as well, but one can never be sure.. :( I should try to find more examples and explanations from Tolkien, or maybe at least reread the chapter about that or do an internet research.
User avatar
Gladhaniel
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: Québec, Canada
Top

Postby ryan.manning » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:58 pm

hi, could you please translate "May the grace of the Valar protect you" into Quenya for me. I would like to get it as a tattoo. thanks!
ryan.manning
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:48 pm
Location: United States
Top

Postby Vea mi olori » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:46 am

ryan.manning

I've changed the wording subtly, to make it more idiomatic in Quenya. Instead of "may" I've used "be it that", which expresses a wish or desire that the statement should be the case.

Be it that the grace (lit. sweetness) of the Valar protect/watch over you -Nai i lissë Valaron tyë-varya

It might also be different depending on exactly who you're addressing. I've used thetyëform, indicating a single person address in familiar terms. It would belyëfor a more formal or general "you" for a single person. I can't trace any dual or plural forms that can be used on their own (i.e. not as an ending to a word), as they must be here.

I'm also mildly concerned about the ponoun-verb formation; it is attested, but it's not usual. I just can't see any other option given the formation;varyatyëis the more usual formation, but it means "you protect". The formation ofvaryanyetmeans "I protect you", but I don't know that there's a pronominal ending for "it". I can suggestnai i lissë Valaron varyasatyëas an alternative, but I'm not sure about it. I'd wait for Gladhaniel to comment on it.

And that's before I get onto the tense... the statement as it stands is rather passive, using the aorist timeless tense for the verb. If you want a feeling of active, ongoing protection, then the present tense (which also suggests ongoing action) would be more appropriate. It would then beNai i lissë Valaron tyë-varyëaorvaryëasatyë, depending on the formulation. But again, I'd wait for a second opinion on it.
User avatar
Vea mi olori
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Norfolk, UK
Top

Postby Gladhaniel » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:25 am

ryan.manning:

Let us take examples from Tolkien to know how exactly nai should be used:

Nai hiruvalyë Valimar! "May thou find Valimar!"
Nai tiruvantes "Be it that they will guard it"
Nai elen siluva parma-restalyanna "May a star shine upon your book-fair"

It seems, from those sentences, that the verb following nai should normally be used in the future tense. :) However, when wishing for something timeless and ongoing, as seems to be our case, Tolkien provides an example showing that one should employ the present continuative tense:

Nai Eru lye mánata "God bless you"

Therefore, the basic verb tense (without ending) would be varyëa, I believe.

Concerning the best way to render you as an object, I believe the only possibility to add it as a suffix would be to use -l (varyëal). It has been clearly said that the formal you (-lyë) can be added to a verb in its short form as an object - but as for a short form of familiar you (-tyë), it's unsure whether Tolkien wanted to keep it or not, and not shortening it would be misleading, so I wouldn't use it.

On the other hand, as you said, we have the attested examples tye-méla "love thee" and Nai Eru lye mánata "May God bless you" (the latter being very much similar to the phrase we want to translate). Even there, we apparently can't be sure whether a hyphen must be put in between or not - but I suggest we simply stick to the Eru-example in every regard, since the construction is really what we are looking for. However, perhaps varyëal would be more common.. Well, I think the best I can come up with is the following:

Nai i lissë* Valaiva* [lye varyëa / varyëal(?)]

*I think I would also choose this translation, since the other ones all seem to involve Eru and it probably wouldn't be logical to say something like "God-gift/God-sweetness of the Valar."
* I'm not sure which ending should be used here. I believe I'd be more tempted to go with the possessive expressing an attribute rather than an origin - unless one wants to say the grace comes from the Valar, in which case Valaron would be perfect. I think Valaiva should be the correct construction, based on the example Eldaiva.
User avatar
Gladhaniel
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: Québec, Canada
Top

Postby Melomentalo » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:22 pm

Hi!

I'm sure someone already asked you about it, but since I couldn't find it I'll just ask again :)

Could you translate this please?

All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost


(I would like to have it tattooed)
Thanks!
User avatar
Melomentalo
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:12 pm
Location: Paris, France
Top

Postby jaymee » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:39 pm

You guys are awesome!
I guess I'll stick to Ilmarë. Solid. :)
jaymee
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:31 am
Top

Next

Return to Language

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest