The Official Quenya Translation Thread II

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Re: The Official Quenya Translation Thread II

Postby Gladhaniel » Sun May 31, 2020 6:55 am

T_Daugherty:

Welcome back! :)

Here's my take on the phrase your friend likes:

Óripantienen, astarenen/voronwenen* ar melmenen, i enda/órë* olë ve i fëa: oialëa/oira*
With honesty, loyalty* and love, the heart* becomes as the soul: eternal*

As poined out by [HKF], the attested example Namna Finwë Míriello shows that "sometimes, only the last item on a list receives case endings that actually apply to all the nouns that are listed." I therefore believe the following would also be correct without the meaning being changed:

Óripantië, astar/voronwë ar melmenen, i enda/órë olë ve i fëa: oialëa/oira

óripanta: sincere, honest, open, (lit.) open-hearted (fan-made word) + abstract noun ending -ië = óripantië sincerity, honesty
astar: faith, loyalty
voronwë: steadfastness, loyalty, faithfulness
melmë: love
enda center, heart (refers to the soul or mind)
órë: heart (inner mind), premonition, "nearest equivalent of 'heart' in our application to feelings, or emotions (courage, fear, hope, pity, etc.)" {VT41:13}
fëa: (indwelling or incarnate) spirit, soul, incarnate spirit
oialëa: eternal
oira: eternal
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Re: The Official Quenya Translation Thread II

Postby Almatolmen » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:10 am

Hi, Gladhahaniel! The prodigal returns, at last. After years of not being able to log-in, thanks to Helen Scott, “I haf returnt!”

As usual, I need your help. A poster on either The Tolkien Society or The Mythopoeic Society asked a question and I did my best to answer!

I posted this material. I didn’t edit it for this post, since the Sindarin material might be useful to you.

Narn en-Angol

Cîr dynd ah erain dynd. 
neled, neled, a neled ad. 
Man tyngir o dôr dhannen man col- 
or-aear hiriol? 
Geil odog a sern odog 
a galadh hilivren vîn.

Literal translation back to English:

Tall ships and tall kings,
three, three and three again.
What did they bring from the fallen land
over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones,
and one shimmering white tree.


Someone wondered whether there are Sindarin or Quenya translations of this, The Rhyme of Lore:

Original rhyme:

Tall ships and tall kings,
Three times three.
What brought they from the foudnered land,
over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones,
and one white tree.

I did find a Link to a Sindarin translation. I think that it follows the English too literally. I'm working on the vocabulary for a revision.

This is the text as I imagine it in English:

A Saga of Deep Lore

Three tall ships and thrice three foremost kings.
What did they bear from the downfallen land
Hither beyond the flowing/flooding stormy/wind-blown ocean?
The Seven Stars and seven Seeing Stones
And a single Shining White Tree.


I don't do syntax. But I hope that someone might find this annotated vocabulary useful for doing a Quenya one:

Quenya:

nyarna tale, saga

nólemë deep lore, wisdom

cirya tyulin ~cir ~tyulma ship ~sail, tall~mast (cognate tyulusse, poplar tree, from a root meaning ' to stand op straight')

ingarani first/foremost kings

neldë three, nel neldë thrice three

mana what (is)

col- to bear, carry

nórë land/mar land -ello

atalantëa ruinous, downfallen < atalantë collapse, downfall

[símen hither]

váya ocean, enveloping [stormy] sea as waters in motion/vea wind-blown ocean, sea

pella beyond (a postposition)

úlëa pouring, flooding, flowing quickly, gushing/*lique water, stream, flowing (as seen in lúnelinqe vea, flowing, *blue-water,

otselen seven stars, a Quenya name for the constellation of the Great Beat, Seven Stars was also the symbol of Elendil, the leader of the Faithful, and his heirs, Isildur and Anárion, the three high kings), representing the seven of the nine ships of the Faithful with a palantir

otso palantiri seven Seeing Stones

er one, a single

silma silver, shining white

alda tree

I posted a Link to a translation of The Rhyme of Lore by Lea Sheler, originally on Elfling, but found at Gwaith-I-Phenniath.Theres a similar translation by Jonathan, an administrator at TOR.c and appearing there in July 2003.

IMO, both stuck too close to the literal, word by word, English text.

I decided to compile a glossary which could be used for a revision. As I've noted before I gather vocabulary and leave the syntax to others cleverer than I.

If you look at a similar post I made for Quenya, things that might confuse you could be clearer.

Original text:.

Tall ships and tall kings,
Three times three.
What brought they from the foundered land,
over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones,
and one white tree.


Sindarin:

narn tale

golu lore, wisdom

cîr ships < cair

arod, high, lofty, from a root meaning "tower up"

erain < aran king, lord

main chief

nel neled thrice three

man [what many think that originally, Sindarin didn't use interrogative words , but used a statement and a interrogative intonation]

col- bear, carry

tîn mean their treasure

dôr land

adtaltha (calque of atalantë)

[sí nef here hither, here on this side of]

athan across, beyond

gæar Great Sea

sirith flowing (gerund)

edegil Seven Stars (constellation)

odog seven

palandîriel far-gazer

Er single/minai single,unique

sil-galadh shining white tree
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Re: The Official Quenya Translation Thread II

Postby Gladhaniel » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:45 pm

Hi Alma,

Nice to see you back! Thanks for your message and ideas. :)

Here's my take on A Rhyme of Lore, using some of the glossary you suggested:

Lairë [nóleva/nólweva]*

Nellumë neldë
Ciryar ar arani [tundë/hallë]*.
Mana collenter Atalantello
Olla ëar-celumë?
Otso eleni ar sardi,
Ar min alda silma.


A Poem [of Lore]*

Three times three
[Tall]* ships and kings.
What did they carry from Downfall(en)
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and stones,
And one white tree.


nólë: long study (of any subject), lore, knowledge, wisdom
nolwë: wisdom, secret lore
nellumë: thrice, three times (fan-made word)
col-: bear, carry
Atalantë: Downfall(en), designating Númenor after its fall into the sea
ëar-celumë: from attested ëar-celumessen "in the flowing sea"
silma: crystal (white), silver, shining white


I decided to emulate this Sindarin translation you mentioned and use sar (small) stone in my own translation. While sar seems to mostly be applicable to small stones and palantíri can in contrast be of different sizes, using the word palantír as such (which I was considering just like you were) felt a bit too literal in the context of the poem. However, I elected to depart from the Sindarin translation and not repeat otso seven, so as to avoid being redundant. In my opinion the flow of the line is quite nice like this!

In fact, I'm afraid you might find my translation too literal as well... I do have a tendency to stick to original wording as possible, although I admit there might be benefits in perhaps taking a bit of creative license in certain cases (such as poetry translation). :)
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