The Official Quenya Translation Thread II

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Postby Gladhaniel » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:40 pm

Melomentalo:

ALL THAT IS GOLD DOES NOT GLITTER

Vea mi olori translated the first line you're looking for on page 51 of the first thread. :D

Vea mi olori wrote:Illi ya ná malta* uinyë mirilya*
All that is gold does not glitter

* In this line of the poem, should metal bear the meaning of metal or of colour? If nothing has been specified by Tolkien, then I would consider using either laurë (colour gold) or malta (gold metal), depending on one's choice.
* I believe I would rather write umë mirilya here.

Illi ya ná malta/laurë umë mirilya.
All that is gold does not glitter.

NOT ALL THOSE WHO WANDER ARE LOST

I was able to find a translation on page 39 of the previous Official Quenya Translation Thread. :)

Breogan wrote:Lá ilyë* i ranyar vanwë* nar*
lit. "not all those who wander are lost"


I really like this version, although I would change it a bit.

* Ilyë seems to be the only possibility here (since illi is an independent noun probably meaning everything in a general sense). However, Tolkien apparently always used it followed by a noun, e.g. ilyë tier all paths. For that reason, I think I would add queni persons to make sure the construction follows the rule - even if it does change the literal meaning a bit.
* I hesitate concerning the word choice. Vanwë ( pl. vanwi) means "gone, departed, vanished, past and over, no longer to be had, dead" whereas hecil ( pl. hecili) specifically means "lost or forsaken by friends, waif, outcast, outlaw." I guess it comes down to the meaning you prefer!
* What do you think of the word order, Vea? I'd be tempted to put the verb before the adjective, this making:

Lá ilyë (queni) i ranyar nar vanwi/hecili.
Not all (people) who wander are lost.

Melomentalo, please wait that Vea comes and takes a look at your sentences as well before doing anything! :)
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Postby Melomentalo » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:49 am

You are amazing, thank you so much!
I'll wait for Vea :)
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Postby Vea mi olori » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:27 pm

Agreed on pretty much all of Gladhaniel's comments, however:

Gladhaniel wrote:* What do you think of the word order, Vea? I'd be tempted to put the verb before the adjective, this making:

Lá ilyë (queni) i ranyar nar vanwi/hecili.
Not all (people) who wander are lost.


I've found a few examples of Tolkien placingafter the adjective:

Yá hríve tenë, ringa ná- “when winter comes, it is cold”
Alasaila ná lá carë tai mo navë mára- "it is unwise not to do what one judges good"

I can't find any examples in the plural, but it doesn't seem to affect the use of the verb in other ways, so I don't see why it should change here, hence the positioning at the end.
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Postby Evenstargazer » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:48 pm

hey all! newbie here, just found this awesome site, and i really appreciate all the work you guys are doing!
i was just wondering if i could get something translated :)

I would like the phrase, "My dearest Chris, you will forever be close to my heart"
i'm planning on getting a tattoo in tengwar :)
thank you soooo much
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Postby Gladhaniel » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:54 am

Melomentalo:

Thanks for your examples, Vea! :) It makes sense. So I guess we now have a final translation for you, Melomentalo:

Illi ya ná malta/laurë umë mirilya
All that is gold does not glitter

Lá ilyë (queni) i ranyar {nar}* vanwi/hecili {nar}*
Not all (people) who wander are lost

* You can apparently choose either of those two positions for the verb. They are attested and should both be correct. :)

Evenstargazer:

Arimeldanya* Chris*, nauval(yë) tennoio har(ë)* endanya/órenya/coacalinanya/indonya*
My dearest Chris, you will be forever near my heart

*I would suggest this construction, because it is the attested Arimelda (dearest, possibly also most beloved and sweetest) combined with the first-person possessive suffix. Perhaps other words such as melin or moina could be employed with the superlative prefix an-, but it is unsure how the latter would be attached to the adjectives (perhaps making ammelin and ammoina?), so I wouldn't go for that. I guess it would also be possible to employ the apparent suffix of endearment -ya, (attested in Anardilya "dear Anardil"), but then it would be difficult to form a proper construction. Assuming it would be feasible, the ending would be -nyaya, which I find awkward.
* Evenstargazer, do you want the name to be kept like it is, or do you want us to try to find a translation? If you wish for "Chris" to be put into Quenya, an etymology would be helpful. :)
*Har(ë) apparently means near, but it's uncertain whether it is an adverb or an adjective, and the way to use it cannot be determined for sure. I wish there was an alternative that is more certain but, as there is no word for close (to), I'm at a loss regarding other possibilities.
*There are many different words for heart in Quenya. You can choose the one whose meaning is the closest to what you want your tattoo to mean!
1) enda: "soul, mind, metaphorical heart, center"
2) órë: "nearest equivalent of 'heart' in our application to feelings, or emotions;" apparently defines the personality
3) coacalina: "light of the house" used as "a metaphor for the soul (fëa) dwelling inside the body (hroa)"
4) indo: "mind, mood"

Also, Vea, do you know about any Quenya word (or affix?) that would be used when addressing someone? I know some languages have that kind of thing and I'm curious about that possibility for Quenya as well, if ever you'd happen to know anything about that. :)

Evenstargazer, as always I'd advise you to wait for a proofreading of my translation by Vea mi olori! :D
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Postby Evenstargazer » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:57 pm

thank you so much! i would definitely like to try to translate the name Chris, i looked online at a few places and found about 3 different names. So whichever you guys think is the most accurate would be greatly appreciated :)
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Postby Gladhaniel » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:47 am

Evenstargazer:

The etymology I found for Chris seems to be the same everywhere. It apparently comes from Christopher, meaning "bearing Christ" or "Christ-bearing."

For that exact etymology, CouncilOfElrond gives Hristocolindo ("Christ-bearer"). On the other hand, Elvish.org suggests Elpinoino, which should be an adjective (Christian) formed from attested Elpino Christ.

It seems like Elpino might have been abandoned for Hristo, so I think I would rather go with the latter. I believe I would choose Hristocolindo as a final alernative, because it is made up of two words attested by Tolkien; furthermore, it sounds fairly masculine, and the meaning is almost exactly that of the etymology we found. :)

Let's see what Vea thinks of this! :D
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Postby Evenstargazer » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:20 pm

awesome! sorry, not trying to flood the thread or anything. so the phrase would look like: "Arimeldanya, Hristocolindo, nauvalye hare orenya"?
(i don't know how to make the fancy characters on my computer) Is there a reason the suffixes are in brackets?
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Postby Vea mi olori » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:03 pm

Yes, I'd go with Gladhaniel's summary almost entirely; I would havenauvatyëovernauvalyë; they both mean "you will be", but the-tyëform is more intimate and personal, which I think is appropriate in this context.

Evenstargazer,to answer you question about the suffixes, it's because they're optional. Nauvalyëhas the suffix-lyëfor "you" on the end, which can be shortened to just-l. Note that nauvatyë cannot be shortened tonauvatby the same logic, as-tis the short pronominal ending for "they/them", not "you". "Near" is attested as bothharandharë, which no indication in my sources as to which is to be preferred, and so either can be used.

Hope that makes sense.
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Postby Gladhaniel » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:41 pm

Great, thank you Vea! :D Evenstargazer: indeed, the final sentence as you chose it would be one of these two.

(Formal) Arimeldanya Hristocolindo, nauval(yë) tennoio har(ë) órenya
(Intimate/Familiar) Arimeldanya Hristocolindo, nauvatyë tennoio har(ë) órenya

As Vea explained, what's between brackets is optional. If you can't reproduce the accents and diaeresis, you can just copy/paste the sentence directly. :)
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Translation

Postby Alyssa925 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:39 pm

Hi, I'd like to get this tattooed on my arm in quenya: beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold

Could you guys translate that for me? You seem to be the most reliable internet source I can find, I'm so glad I found this forum :) Thanks so much ! xo
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Postby Vea mi olori » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:28 am

Alyssa925

I've changed it a bit to make it possible in Quenya, but not much:

beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees [unfurl/open]*

ní/undu** i rondo/télla*** lassion i olori aldaron pantar

*There's no Quenya verb for "unfold" as such, but as the abstract noun for "unfolding" ispantië, I'm certain that panta-carries the same connotations.

**These are both words for "under/beneath". Asnualso means "under, I'd go withasundualso has possibly unwanted connotations of "down under".

***rondois technically a vaulted roof, whereastellais a roof more generally. I get the feeling vaulted roof would feel better in this phrase, but it's up to you.

I'd wait for Gladhaniel to give her opinion as well, but that's my two-pennorth.
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Postby Alyssa925 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:49 pm

Thank you so much ! It's so fantastic to see such a quick response ! :) Yes, let me know when you've both revised it :) xox
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Postby jahki » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:01 am

Hello, I'm looking to to get my little boys names translated to Quenya.. I posted in the transcription thread but it appears the translations I found online may be incorrect..

The names are:

Hayden Matthew

Kian Joshua

I appreciate so much what you guys do! You may see me in the Sindarin thread too, (if it's the same moderators in both) I want to see what both translations look like.
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Postby Vea mi olori » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:40 pm

jahki

I've translated their meanings into Quenya, rather than their sounds:

Hayden (hay hill) – þarambo(the þ is pronounced s in Quenya, but is written differently in Tengwar to "s")
Matthew (gift of God) – Eruanna(literally God-gift)
Kian (ancient) –Yára[o/quen](The endings of-oand-quenboth mean "person" effectively, but-ois distinctly masculine)
Joshua (God saves) -Eruetelehta

If you do want just the sounds in Quenya (like Jesus being derived from the Aramaic pronunciation of Joshua, Yeshua), they're as follows:

Hayden -Heígen
Matthew -Mathiu
Kian -Kíen
Joshua -Hyóshyua

I'd personally advise against using these ones, though.

Hope you like them! I'd also wait to see what Gladhaniel comes up with.
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Postby jahki » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:38 pm

I do like them, thanks!
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Tattoo

Postby KCarona » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:44 pm

I'd like to get a tattoo but I need something translated from english to quenya first. Could you please translate: helper (or) protector of mankind for me please? Many thanks in advance
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Postby Vea mi olori » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:03 am

I can't find a distinct noun for "protector", and not many for "doer" sorts of words (e.g. walker, maker, writer etc), so this is a somewhat speculative formulation:

Protecting-person of Mankind - varyalaquen atanion

"Mankind" here is in the sense of "mortal men", specifically human. I's never translated as gender neutral, but far as I'm aware it can appy to all humanity.
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Postby Elealyan » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:12 am

I'm very interested in getting a tattoo in Tengwar, but would much prefer it to also be in Quenya. The words I'd like are

Hope

Dream

All Shall Fade

Breathe

The road goes ever on

Thank you all! :) You really are awesome. I haven't decided quite what I'm getting, but these are high up on my list, and I'd like to see what the translations are :)
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Postby Elealyan » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:47 am

Also, if I could possibly get

Not all those who wander are lost

In Quenya. Thanks a bunch!
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Postby Vea mi olori » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:06 am

Elealyan

One slight change to the wording, but otherwise this should be fine.

Hope (noun, a hope) -estel

Dream -olos(noun)óla(verb, aorist/timeless tense)

All Will Fade -Illi queluva

Breathe -þúya(verb, aorist/timeless tense)þúyëa(verb, present/ongoing tense, strictly closer to "breathing" than "breathe")

Note that the þ should be pronounced "s"'; it's just written with a different tengwa (letter) than normal s.

The road runs* ever on -I tië nórnora**/nórnorëa***

*I changed "goes" to "runs" because the only Quenya verb for "to go" that I can find has the sense of departing, which isn't what is wanted here.

**I've altered the attested verbnórnoro-here, as Third Age Quenya (the most readily usable form) "does not appear to have o-stem verbs" according to Helge; the only choice seems to be between primitive (consonant-ending) verbs, a-stem verbs and the rare u-stem.

***I've included both the aorist and present-continuous tenses here, as both seem possibly appropriate. The logic is outlined above.

"Not all those who wander are lost" has been translated at the top of this page.

Given the adaptations I've made, I'd wait until Gladhaniel gives her opinion on them before going to get a tattoo of them.
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Postby Elealyan » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:01 pm

Thank you so much, These are great. And sorry I missed that one, I swore I had read through everything in the thread, haha. And I will definitely wait and double check :)
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Postby Gladhaniel » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:57 pm

Sorry for taking so long to double-check your requests, guys! The new school semester has just begun, so I've been pretty busy in the last couple of days.

Alyssa925:

Vea mi olori wrote:ní/undu* i rondo/télla* lassion * i olori aldaron pantar

*Nothing much to add here. means beneath, not touching, under. You should be aware that it's also an outdated word for woman, female, though. Undu is down, under, beneath - so the meaning is actually not that different. I guess the choice comes down to your personal preference! But I'd keep in mind Vea's remark about the possible conation of undu.
*I wouldn't use rondo, as it apparently bears the confusing meanings of "a (large) hall or chamber so roofed," "vaulted hall" and "cave" as well. About télla, I can't find it in the dictionary.. What I came up with is simply tópa roof.
*If I'm not mistaken, a word for "sleeping" is missing here. However, as there exists no word for the verb sleep in Quenya, and an only uncertain one for the same noun, I have trouble finding a way out of that. Is that particular word essential to the sentence, Alyssa?

For now, my final sentence would look like this: Ní/Undu i tópa lassion i olori aldaron pantar :D

jahki:

I don't take responsibility for the etymologies here, as I'm unable to come up with anything unanimous from the internet. In regard to the meanings, I trust the judgement of Vea and Xandarien, who came up with really similar etymologies. :)

Vea mi olori wrote:Hayden (hay hill) – þarambo (the þ is pronounced s in Quenya, but is written differently in Tengwar to "s")
Matthew (gift of God) – Eruanna (literally God-gift)
Kian (ancient) – Yára[o/quen] (The endings of -o and -quen both mean "person" effectively, but -o is distinctly masculine)*
Joshua (God saves) - Eruetelehta*

I don't have anything to add, except this:

*Just so you know, jahki, yára means exactly "old, belonging to or descending from former times." I guess Yáraquen works; however, I'm not sure Yárao is a valid word in Quenya, so I wouldn't choose it. I'd personally go with Yárano as I find it flows slightly better. The meaning should be the same: masculine ancient person.
*I think I wouldn't use Erutelehta, because I understand that the verb lehta- is an extrapolation from a gerund and was apparently never directly mentioned by Tolkien. Perhaps something like airë rehtië "holy rescue" would be good (although I have no idea how it could be formulated as a surname). If we keep the pattern from Eruanna being constructed of Eru and anna and forming "God-gift," Erurehtië "God-rescue" would probably be the best I can find! I'm actually not so sure anymore whether rehtië was the original word given by Tolkien, or rather rehta-. It makes me a bit uneasy - but I guess both are valid, even though one (we don't know which) is not completely canon.

As for the translations based on sounds, I have no idea how you achieved them! I'm not used to that sort of procedure, so I believe I would privilege the other alternatives - but that's only my opinion. :)

KCarona and Elealyan, I will do your requests tomorrow. :D
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Postby Gladhaniel » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:09 pm

KCarona:

I came up with something different than Vea, although I do like his choice of the words varya and Atan. :)

The way I see it, you can have two sets of alternatives, depending on the meaning and word you prefer:
(1) varya protect
(2) manya "either to afford grace or help or to wish it; bless"

To indicate you are the doer of the verb, I believe the only safe way would be to use the agentive endings -rë (feminine), -ro (masculine) and -r (neutral), because those are attested as the equivalents of English -er at the end of verbs. As for the case to be used with Atan (don't forget the capital A: it's a proper noun!), I'm a bit uncertain about using the genitive, since it mostly indicates origin and we don't want to be saying something like "saviour/helper [from] Mankind." I believe I would choose the possessive instead, taking the sentence Eruo melmë Ataniva "God's love of Men" as a model. That example even confirms us that Ataniva is a good way to translate "of Mankind" in particular!

FEMALE
(1) Varyarë Ataniva "female saviour of Mankind"
(2) Manyarë Ataniva "female helper of Mankind"

MALE
(1) Varyaro Ataniva "male saviour of Mankind"
(2) Manyaro Ataniva "male helper of Mankind"

GENDERLESS
(1) Varyar Ataniva "saviour of Mankind"
(2) Manyar Atanica "helper of Mankind"

(I would advise you against using the neutral alternatives, because I find that the ending -r can easily be confused with a plural form of the verbs.)
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Thank you

Postby KCarona » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:15 pm

Gladhaniel thank you so much, this is so helpful and will go a long way for my tattoo!
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Postby Gladhaniel » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:34 pm

Elealyan

HOPE

I second Vea's suggestion.

Estel is a noun and must be used as such. I don't think it would be possible to construct any form derived from a verb, since we simply don't have any verb stem. It is said that estel specifically means "'hope', sc. a temper of mind, steady, fixed in purpose, and difficult to dissuade and unlikely to fall into despair or abandon its purpose;" it is also translated elsewhere as "trust."

DREAM

Here you can have either a verb or a noun.

The noun dream can apparently be translated in three equally valid ways: olor, olórë and olos (the latter bearing connotations of "visions"). I couldn't find anywhere whether any translation has been abandoned or if one should be privileged.

For the verb, I would suggest either the formal imperative á óla (something like "dream!" in English) or the infinitive óla (basically "to dream"). I don't think óla can be said to stand on its own as an aorist verb (or any other verb tense) - probably it needs a subject for that. It's the same form, but still, I would rather call it an infinitive!

ALL SHALL FADE

Quel- means "to fail; wane, wither, fade." Perhaps fifíru- "slowly fade away" could be used instead? Also, I read that illi should be treated as plural.. I don't know if it's true, but if so, here is how I would translate the entire phrase:

Illi fífiruvar/queluvar.

But I actually don't find the plural would make sense. In this sentence, at least, it looks to me like we want to say "everything shall fade," and that's definitely singular! What do you think, Vea? Perhaps it's simply an exception or a specific feature of Quenya that's different from English - but to know what Tolkien really meant, we would need attested examples, and I don't have any.

BREATHE

Again, I would translate as following:

á súya/þúya ("breathe!") or súya/þúya ("to breathe")

THE ROAD GOES EVER ON

I found lenna- "go, proceed (in any direction), travel" - but I'm not entirely sure whether its meaning was later changed to "go away, depart." It would then give us lenna ("goes," timeless certainty) or lennëa ("is going") in the sentence; however, the meaning would perhaps not exactly be that which we're looking for. I perfectly understand your logic in altering nornoro-, Vea, but I personally wouldn't dare altering a verb. Besides, can we be sure this verb can be used figuratively? I don't quite know which alternative is the safest.. I think I would go with lenna/lennëa, which would give:

I tië lenna/lennëa.
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Re: Thank you

Postby Gladhaniel » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:36 pm

KCarona wrote:Gladhaniel thank you so much, this is so helpful and will go a long way for my tattoo!

You're very welcome! :D
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Postby Tomahawk » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:36 am

I've been looking for a translation of this phrase from the Silmarillion everywhere, but I can't seem to find it
"And thou Melkor, shall see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite."
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Postby Gladhaniel » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:55 am

Tomahawk:

Now that's a very challenging (and wonderful) quote! :) You will see that the vocabulary limitations forced me to alter the meaning of the sentence a bit; but I do hope you like the result!

Ar lye, Melkor,* cenuvalyë* i umë ecë cerë mon* lindalë* ya úmen(yë) auta,* ar ya mo umë lerta vista* i lintalë lenémë nio.*
And thou, Melkor, thou shall see that one may not make music that I did not originate, and that one cannot change the music without my leave.

*Interestingly, I found that Melkor (already in Quenya) means "He Who Arises In Might."
*Here I simply took attested cenuvalyes "thou shall see it" and removed the object ending. I had to repeat the pronoun to make the sentence sensical; I hope it doesn't bother you. Personally, I find the emphasis on the pronoun really relevant.
*The attested example Ecë nin carë sa "I can do it" tell us two things about the way to use ec- ("verb denoting chance, opportunity or permission"): the subject always comes after the verb, and in the dative. Here I took attested mo one, someone, anyone and added the dative -n to it. However, in this case we have two infinitives (may and make) and also a negation, which is slightly different from the attested examples we have. The assumption that our phrase should be rendered as {negation} {inf.1} {inf.2} {dative pronoun} is pure extrapolation.
*No word exists for theme, so I used lindalë music, song instead.
* Because of the lack in vocabulary, I had to rephrase the sentence once more. Auta- means originate, invent, devise; I hope it's proper in this context.
* I picked lerta- because it is said to mean "be free to do, being under no restraint (physical or other)." Vista- is simply change - which I find too neutral and not negative enough for the context, but I wasn't able to come up with a word bearing a more negative connotation.
*I'm not quite sure about that construction. It is said that lenémë is "with leave" (+ genitive: "with leave of"), so I concluded that {lenémë}{pronoun me in genitive form} must equal "with my leave."

I'm disappointed with the result in comparison to the original sentence, because a lot of rephrasing had to be made.. But I promise I did my best! As it's a rather difficult sentence, I'd strongly suggest that you wait for Vea to come and give his opinion. :)
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Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: Québec, Canada
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Postby jaktens » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:03 pm

Hi! could you translate these three words:
'survive' , 'be yourself' , 'dreamer'
for me please? thanks :)
jaktens
Petitioner to the Council
 
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