The Official Sindarin Translation Thread II

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Postby Emsie » Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:59 am

Hi Xandarien,

I was wondering if it would be possible for you to give me the phonetic pronunciation of some of the words you translated for me??


Nestawen

Nestil

Nesteth

So I can actually say what will be tattooed on me!!

Thanks again, Emma X
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Postby Isildilmë » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:10 am

Oh ! I hope Xand will post another voice recording ! I'll be checking for it in case, it worths hanging around ! :D

And btw Xand, I have a quick question for you. In Sindarin, when it's written "ng" (everywhere, but also at the beggining of a word in particular), is it pronunced as in "finger" (ŋg) or as in "Ring"(ŋ, no "g" heard) or another way ? I thought it was like "Ring", but I'm not sure anymore. It is probably my only remaining interrogation about Sindarin pronunciation.
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To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
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If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Postby Xandarien » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:12 am

Emsie wrote:Hi Xandarien,

I was wondering if it would be possible for you to give me the phonetic pronunciation of some of the words you translated for me??


Nestawen

Nestil

Nesteth

So I can actually say what will be tattooed on me!!

Thanks again, Emma X


:blush:

Heya, here you go

http://www.filedropper.com/foremsie


@Isildilmë

Depends where it is in the word. If it's at the beginning, it's more like 'finger', so if you were saying i ngelaidh (the trees) the n and the g should both be sounded.
If it's at the end, like i lhing (the cobweb) then it's the sound in 'ring' (more silent).
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Postby Isildilmë » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:29 am

Xandarien wrote: :blush:

Heya, here you go

http://www.filedropper.com/foremsie

Yeah ! We wants more ! :D
I was probably looking like a bit obsessional : I don't have speakers at work, so I searched for my earphones like crazy, and as they are not long enough I had to almost sit on the floor to listen. Worths it ;)

Xandarien wrote:@Isildilmë

Depends where it is in the word. If it's at the beginning, it's more like 'finger', so if you were saying i ngelaidh (the trees) the n and the g should both be sounded.
If it's at the end, like i lhing (the cobweb) then it's the sound in 'ring' (more silent).

mmm, I expected something like that. Well at least now I know !
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Postby a_chrislip » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:52 pm

Looking for animals, body parts, family members, shapes, colors, foods, common objects, etc... teaching myself, my wife, and our three-year-old simultaneously.
found numbers and colors very easily.


So far I really need to find

square

duck
lizard
monkey
owl
pig
rabbit
tiger (or "striped" to put with "cath")
turtle
unicorn
zebra (or "striped" to put with "roch")
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Postby Emsie » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:06 pm

Xandarien,

Thank you so much!! That's fab!! They sound exactly as I thought they would
:lol:


@Isildilmë

I'm glad that I could be of service!! :wink:
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Postby Isildilmë » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:03 am

a_chrislip wrote:So far I really need to find

square

duck
lizard
monkey
owl
pig
rabbit
tiger (or "striped" to put with "cath")
turtle
unicorn
zebra (or "striped" to put with "roch")

:shock: I think you'll have a good challenge with some of these, Xandarien, am I right ?
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Postby Xandarien » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:28 am

Isildilmë wrote: :shock: I think you'll have a good challenge with some of these, Xandarien, am I right ?


Yes :D but by fortune and happenstance I just did three of them as reconstructions recently!

a_chrislip wrote:Looking for animals, body parts, family members, shapes, colors, foods, common objects, etc... teaching myself, my wife, and our three-year-old simultaneously.
found numbers and colors very easily.


So far I really need to find

square

duck
lizard
monkey
owl
pig
rabbit
tiger (or "striped" to put with "cath")
turtle
unicorn
zebra (or "striped" to put with "roch")


Hi there :)

If you're after animals I have a comprehensive list here
http://sindarinphrases.weebly.com/animals.html

Pig = Pholg
Owl =
Rabbit = Laboth

These three I don't believe I've added to the lists yet, they're fairly recent reconstructions from Qenya.

Square, duck, lizard, monkey, turtle and unicorn don't exist I'm afraid.

There isn't a word for tiger, but you could make a mini sentence to describe one:

i iaul adh vornred a colvalred = the cat with black and orange highlights
(there isn't a word for stripes either).

In the same vein you could do something similar for unicorn:
i roch adh ras = the horse with a horn

Edit - Unicorn obviously doesn't exist as it's a creature of fantasy, but not one that existed in Middle Earth. Tigers would have existed, but the Elves clearly never met them! Turtle/tortoise is actually bugging me, as there's the poem 'Fastitacalon', I will have a search of the Qenya/Noldorin glosses on the off chance. :)
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Postby a_chrislip » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:05 am

Thank you, I appreciate the help. I have 7 different tabs plus one pdf and two .docs I've been combing through. That's just the Sindarin. We are going to be teaching her Spanish, French, Japanese (Romaji to be specific) and Sindarin. All the words are for multilingual flash cards and board books.

So, we're trying to comprise specific word lists to start. Y'know, colors, shapes, animals, family, etc.

I contracted a few words for square, ath-atya'pain
"same across all sides" I do believe.

Thanks again.

Aaron Chrislip
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Postby Xandarien » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:35 am

a_chrislip wrote:Thank you, I appreciate the help. I have 7 different tabs plus one pdf and two .docs I've been combing through. That's just the Sindarin. We are going to be teaching her Spanish, French, Japanese (Romaji to be specific) and Sindarin. All the words are for multilingual flash cards and board books.

So, we're trying to comprise specific word lists to start. Y'know, colors, shapes, animals, family, etc.

I contracted a few words for square, ath-atya'pain
"same across all sides" I do believe.

Thanks again.

Aaron Chrislip


atya is Quenyan not Sindarin, you've actually written 'across-[not sindarin] all' so it's not far off.

rîwath = all sides

I've been trying to reconstruct a word that means 'identical, self-same' into Sindarin but due to the original roots that Tolkien created for this meaning it's a bit more difficult than usual.

I believe it should be imu (I will spare you the process I've just spent the last 15 minutes doing lol) which would give us the sentence

imu bo rîwath = same on all sides
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Postby a_chrislip » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:49 am

Xandarien wrote:
atya is Quenyan not Sindarin, you've actually written 'across-[not sindarin] all' so it's not far off.




Not bad for only being at this for about two days, if I don't say so myself. hahaha. Oh and I'm stealing imu bo rîwath for my list. Thank you so much. I'm wondering if one or two of my sources are Quenyan rather than Sindarin. Or perhaps filled in with Quenyan so as to be more complete rather than accurate. hmmm
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Postby Xandarien » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:37 am

What sources are you using?

http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sindar/o ... sd-en.html

is the most complete dictionary on the Internet (still about 3 years out of date though).

Parviphith isn't too bad, but it's got reconstructions that aren't marked.
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Postby a_chrislip » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:33 am

That is one,
various pages from http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/
http://www.grey-company.org/Language/Files/elven.pdf
and I've also been using your site as well (unknown until you posted the link two or three posts ago)
and http://home.homeinternet.net/clarinet/E ... gsind.html

if/when discrepancies arise, I find the most common spelling/form between them.
This is almost as difficult to find accurate translations for as Romaji. lol.

btw, how do you develop your reconstructions? (if you don't mind me asking)
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Postby Xandarien » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:43 am

Ah ha.

Don't use the Grey Company site, it's known as 'Grelvish', it bears very little resemblance to Tolkien's actual work :) . Unfortunately it is commonly mistaken for being accurate however :(

My reconstruction are from multiple paths:

1) An existing Sindarin word with a suffix added to it, for example:
Hortha- = to urge on + -ren = speedily (Horthren)
or
Fael (fair minded, just) + the abstract suffix -as = justice (Faelas)

This uses attested material.

2) A Quenyan word is 'Sindarinised' using Tolkien's own steps on how phonology changed over the years (there is a linguistic journal that covers this). E.g.:
Quesse (feather) in Quenyan becomes Cess in Sindarin.

3) A Qenyan word from Tolkien's original wordlists from the '30s, this is one of the first 'Elvish' languages from which the later ones come - this is then turned into Sindarin in much the same way as a Quenyan one is.

4) Again using already existing Sindarin material, creating a compound, e.g: Am (up) + haled (lifting) = Amchaled (uplifting, adjective)
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Postby a_chrislip » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:57 am

Thanks for that, I just closed that one.

I'm not going to lie. I'll probably have a several more questions for you after I finish going through the 'lessons' section of your site, which will be my next step after finding the Romaji, Spanish, and French words/phrases. I have a grasp of pronunciation and grammatical structure in those already. The Sindarin, I have no clue. I can make inferences based on Latin and Gaelic similarities, but that's it.
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Postby Xandarien » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:10 am

Cool, I'm always happy to answer questions!

Sindarin has some basis in Welsh (word formation similarities), much as Quenyan has some basis in Finnish, but he mostly made it up!
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Postby a_chrislip » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:23 pm

Would you mind taking a look at an excel file (word list) for me to make sure I don't have any major errors in the Sindarin. I can send you a copy of the finished flash card, coloring book, and board book image files when they are finished in trade.
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Postby Xandarien » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:09 am

Yip certainly, pop it over to jennamarievincent@yahoo.co.uk
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Postby a_chrislip » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:14 pm

Computer: which would you use?
ist'aud
ist-gaud
gaud-od-ist
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Postby Xandarien » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:10 am

Hmm.

Od = of, from a place incidentally

Probably Gaud-ist.
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Correction translation

Postby rothn » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:08 am

I have tried to translate a short of song i wrote for a music theme in Sindarin. Therefore i appose to you the following song both in english and Sindarin for correction:

-Beyond the vast and black sea a tale between evil and good, forsaken names battle for glory, for justice for light for peace. Noble Elves, greedy hobbits, cunning men and beardy dwarves, against the evil wizard and numberless orcs, they sworn in thee name of the great father to clean all the curse, and they sworn in thee name of the great father to be free or be dead.

-Athan i taur a myrn gaear, i narn min ogol a maer, eglain enith oeth a agar, anfael anhal ansidh. Arth Elin melch periannath, fang nogothrim a cory edain,dan i ogol ithryn a arnediad orch. Ti gwedyr vi ie eneth, ned ie beleg adar an puig pan i rhach, a ti gwedyr vi ie enith ned ie beleg adar, an nalain egor nafern.
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Re: Correction translation

Postby Xandarien » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:29 pm

rothn wrote:I have tried to translate a short of song i wrote for a music theme in Sindarin. Therefore i appose to you the following song both in english and Sindarin for correction:

-Beyond the vast and black sea a tale between evil and good, forsaken names battle for glory, for justice for light for peace. Noble Elves, greedy hobbits, cunning men and beardy dwarves, against the evil wizard and numberless orcs, they sworn in thee name of the great father to clean all the curse, and they sworn in thee name of the great father to be free or be dead.

-Athan i taur a myrn gaear, i narn min ogol a maer, eglain enith oeth a agar, anfael anhal ansidh. Arth Elin melch periannath, fang nogothrim a cory edain,dan i ogol ithryn a arnediad orch. Ti gwedyr vi ie eneth, ned ie beleg adar an puig pan i rhach, a ti gwedyr vi ie enith ned ie beleg adar, an nalain egor nafern.


Okey dokey...my version of this is as follows (explanations afterwards).

Athan i aear daur a vorn narn mîn ogol a vaer ias enith eglain dagrar an aglar, an faelas, calad a hîdh. Edhil arod, periain vadweg, edain goru a hedhyd-adh-feng dan i ithron ogol a yrch arnediad; gwestannar min eneth edh-Rodyn an puigad pân i rhach, a 'westanner min eneth edh-Rodyn no leitho egor no gwann.

You're actually not far off with a lot of what you've written, but word order has let you down. Adjectives always follow the nouns, so for example...

i aear daur a vorn = the sea vast and black

Taur (vast) follows the adjective directly, and is mutated, then morn (black) follows a (and) and is also mutated.

Athan = Beyond
i aear = the sea
daur a vorn = vast and black
narn = a tale (You'd written 'i narn' which is 'the tale'. A/an do not exist in Sindarin, inasmuch as there are not separate words for them, they are implied).
mîn = between (min = one, the accent makes all the difference!)
ogol = evil
a vaer = and good (again, maer mutates following 'and')
ias = where (not the interrogative pronoun Where? incidentally)
enith = names (well done on pluralising this correctly yourself btw)
eglain = forsaken (again, it needs to follow the word 'names' not preceed it)
dagrar = they battle (You'd used the noun for 'a battle' rather than the verb)
an = for
aglar = glory
faelas = justice (Fael + the abstract suffix)
calad a hîdh = light and peace
Edhil arod = Noble Elves
periain vadweg = gluttonous hobbits (periannath is 'all of the hobbits', if you want to use that instead)
edain goru = cunning men
hedhyd-adh-feng = dwarves with beards.
You could replace these three words with Enfeng = Longbeards if you wanted? This is ultimately a bit of a strange sentence, as all Dwarves have beards!
dan i ithron ogol = against the evil wizard
a yrch arnediad = and numberless orcs (Orch = one orc, Yrch is the plural)
Gwestanner = they swore
min eneth edh-Rodyn = in the name of the Valar*
no leitho = to be free
egor = or
no gwann = dead/departed **

* I have used Valar instead of Eru, because no one in Middle Earth worshipped Eru. There is a second problem that out of the four races the Dwarves would have worshipped Aule, and the hobbits would have not have known the Valar existed, let alone worship them (ditto for the lesser men of the Third Age that were not of Numenorean descent).

** As Elves do not die (well, apart from two) a word with the meaning of departed is better served, as that way it covers all four races.
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Re: Correction translation

Postby rothn » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:19 pm

Hannad Xandarien o Rothn.

Xandarien wrote:
rothn wrote:I have tried to translate a short of song i wrote for a music theme in Sindarin. Therefore i appose to you the following song both in english and Sindarin for correction:

-Beyond the vast and black sea a tale between evil and good, forsaken names battle for glory, for justice for light for peace. Noble Elves, greedy hobbits, cunning men and beardy dwarves, against the evil wizard and numberless orcs, they sworn in thee name of the great father to clean all the curse, and they sworn in thee name of the great father to be free or be dead.

-Athan i taur a myrn gaear, i narn min ogol a maer, eglain enith oeth a agar, anfael anhal ansidh. Arth Elin melch periannath, fang nogothrim a cory edain,dan i ogol ithryn a arnediad orch. Ti gwedyr vi ie eneth, ned ie beleg adar an puig pan i rhach, a ti gwedyr vi ie enith ned ie beleg adar, an nalain egor nafern.


Okey dokey...my version of this is as follows (explanations afterwards).

Athan i aear daur a vorn narn mîn ogol a vaer ias enith eglain dagrar an aglar, an faelas, calad a hîdh. Edhil arod, periain vadweg, edain goru a hedhyd-adh-feng dan i ithron ogol a yrch arnediad; gwestannar min eneth edh-Rodyn an puigad pân i rhach, a 'westanner min eneth edh-Rodyn no leitho egor no gwann.

You're actually not far off with a lot of what you've written, but word order has let you down. Adjectives always follow the nouns, so for example...

i aear daur a vorn = the sea vast and black

Taur (vast) follows the adjective directly, and is mutated, then morn (black) follows a (and) and is also mutated.

Athan = Beyond
i aear = the sea
daur a vorn = vast and black
narn = a tale (You'd written 'i narn' which is 'the tale'. A/an do not exist in Sindarin, inasmuch as there are not separate words for them, they are implied).
mîn = between (min = one, the accent makes all the difference!)
ogol = evil
a vaer = and good (again, maer mutates following 'and')
ias = where (not the interrogative pronoun Where? incidentally)
enith = names (well done on pluralising this correctly yourself btw)
eglain = forsaken (again, it needs to follow the word 'names' not preceed it)
dagrar = they battle (You'd used the noun for 'a battle' rather than the verb)
an = for
aglar = glory
faelas = justice (Fael + the abstract suffix)
calad a hîdh = light and peace
Edhil arod = Noble Elves
periain vadweg = gluttonous hobbits (periannath is 'all of the hobbits', if you want to use that instead)
edain goru = cunning men
hedhyd-adh-feng = dwarves with beards.
You could replace these three words with Enfeng = Longbeards if you wanted? This is ultimately a bit of a strange sentence, as all Dwarves have beards!
dan i ithron ogol = against the evil wizard
a yrch arnediad = and numberless orcs (Orch = one orc, Yrch is the plural)
Gwestanner = they swore
min eneth edh-Rodyn = in the name of the Valar*
no leitho = to be free
egor = or
no gwann = dead/departed **

* I have used Valar instead of Eru, because no one in Middle Earth worshipped Eru. There is a second problem that out of the four races the Dwarves would have worshipped Aule, and the hobbits would have not have known the Valar existed, let alone worship them (ditto for the lesser men of the Third Age that were not of Numenorean descent).

** As Elves do not die (well, apart from two) a word with the meaning of departed is better served, as that way it covers all four races.
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Postby Feaneon » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:08 pm

Hey Xandarien,

Could you translate "Journey of the Featherless" for me?

That would be "Featherless" a group of featherless things... if that helps with this plural/singular issue...

It would mean a lot to me!

Thanks!
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Postby Xandarien » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:06 am

Feaneon wrote:Hey Xandarien,

Could you translate "Journey of the Featherless" for me?

That would be "Featherless" a group of featherless things... if that helps with this plural/singular issue...

It would mean a lot to me!

Thanks!


Lend e·ben-gess

Lend = Journey
e = of the
ben-gess = featherless
(cess = feather, pen = without, -less)
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Postby natalee32 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:12 pm

I am looking to get my first elvish tattoos and was wondering if you could help me with some translations.

The name Caitlin

and the phrase even in death I will never leave you


thanks for you help :)
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Postby Xandarien » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:47 am

natalee32 wrote:I am looking to get my first elvish tattoos and was wondering if you could help me with some translations.

The name Caitlin

and the phrase even in death I will never leave you


thanks for you help :)


The meaning I found for Caitlin is 'pure' which gives us the options:

Gláneth = Pure one
Glángwen = Pure maiden
Glánel = Pure (with a female ending)
Glánil = Pure (with a female ending)
Glánien = Pure daughter

Right, onto your phrase -

Actually having problems with this, there's no verb for 'to leave', and the verb for 'to depart' has connotations of death attached to it. I could do it as 'I will never flee from you' but that's a rather different meaning.

What about...

Mi gurth ú-nerithon ed = In death I will not run forth

I would attach the words 'For you' at the front, but unfortunately that's not how Sindarin works, that pronoun should go at the end, but that would then alter the meaning of the sentence to a rather negative one! I've tried playing with the sentence structure, and I'll be honest, I can't do much more with it, it's a very Anglicised sentence structure. :(
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home is where your heart is

Postby jääkarhu » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:35 am

hey there
how would you translate the phrase 'home is where your heart is' from english to sindarin?
also wanted to mention how awesome it is that you do this :)
thank you in advance :))
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Re: home is where your heart is

Postby Xandarien » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:32 am

jääkarhu wrote:hey there
how would you translate the phrase 'home is where your heart is' from english to sindarin?
also wanted to mention how awesome it is that you do this :)
thank you in advance :))


Milbar ias i chûn nîn

Milbar = Home of one's birth, dear home, place returned to
ias = where
i i chûn nîn = my heart

The word 'is' is implied :)

And you're welcome!
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Xandarien
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Postby jääkarhu » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:25 am

ah that makes sense since 'is' is what i was stuck on!
so thank you very much:) !
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