Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

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Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:12 pm

I figured this was a tad too long just to go in my translation thread (plus it's not a request, this is more a 'here you go, what do you think?' sort of thread).

This is up to the end of the first page (of my copy anyway, I have a hardback version illustrated by Ted Nasmith if that helps). It hasn't actually taken me that long in real terms, (i.e when I actually sit down and translate it, 4 lines at a time), what's taken the time is just the fact the subject matter is pretty damn dry when you analyse it! I've had to reword some sentences in English (as the concepts or too many words don't exist in Sindarin).

Ainulindalë
The Music of the Ainur

Eru ennas, i erui, i mi Arda Ilúvatar estant; ah echant main idh Rodyn, i phin aer, i onannin od i nauth dîn, a noner adh den núf naid echannir.
A bent andin, golthed andin in lind gling; a linner anden, a nan gellweg.
Dan an lû and, linner erui, egor dan min egor tad go-linner. ir sain i ú-linner lastanner, an istanner erui i berin en ind o Ilúvatar od i doll, a vin istad o i gwedyr dîn galanner ú-chorthren.
Dan sui ui-lastanner i cheniad dîn galant, a go-linanner lendren.
Ah i lû toll i Ilúvatar tolthant Rodonath ah penn andin o lhind veleg, narad andin o naid roveleg athan i naid penn o núf; ah i aglar oh i onnad dîn ah i glaur oh i veth dîn cauthant idh Rodyn, cavant an Ilúvatar a noner dínen.
Si Ilúvatar pent andin: 'oh i lind i benn andin, aníron hi i go-echadolir lendren Lind Veleg. A sui narthannen len adh i Naur Uireb, annatholir ed i melain lîn echaded i lind hen, adh i noeth în ah goed, pe iestolir.'
Dan hevithon a lasto, a no gellweg i trî len bainas veleg echuia mi linnad!
Na i lû han i chonath idh-Rodyn, sui gennil a hailf, a rym a helbin ah sui gwaith arnediad linnad a bith, herianner echaded i lind Ilúvatar na 'ling veleg; a lhoss ennas - lind arnediad go-riged i ledhad athan larad min imlaid a vin ered, ah i haid e-mbar Ilúvatar panner, ah i linnad ah i 'lamor e-linnad ledhad min gaw, ah ú-non gaw. Idh Rodyn ú-echannir ui ab i lû hen lind sui i lind hen dan cennen i lind roveleg echeditha núf Ilúvatar adh i chonath edh-Rodyn ah i chîn Ilúvatar ab i Veth-en-Oer.


English:

Eru there was in that place, the only, who in Arda was called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the holy ones, that were born of his thought, and they were with him before things were made.
And he spoke to them, teaching to them the airs of music; and they sang to him, and he was joyful.
But for a long time, they sang alone, or but one or two they sang together, while those who did not sing they listened, for they knew alone that half of the inner thought of Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the knowledge of their sworn brothers they grew slowly. Yet as they ever listened their understanding grew, and they sang together sweetly.
And the time came that Ilúvatar summoned all of the Ainur and he spoke to them about a mighty air, telling them a tale of things greater than the things he spoke of before; and the glory of its begetting and the splendour of its end startled the Ainur, they bowed to Ilúvatar and they were silent.
Now Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the air that I spoke to you, I want now that you fashion together sweetly a Great Music. And as I have kindled you with the Eternal Fire, you will give forth your divine powers fashioning this air, with your own thoughts and devices, if you wish. But I will sit and listen, and be joyful that through you great beauty awakens in song!'
At that time the many voices of the Ainur, like harps and lyres, and trumpets and violas, and like countless people singing with words, they began to vigorously fashion the theme of Ilúvatar to a great music; a sound there was in that place - endless tunes wreathed together that travelled beyond hearing into the valleys and into the mountains and the places of the house of Ilúvatar were filled, and the singing and the echo of the singing departed into the void, and it was not void. The Ainur did not make ever after this time a music like this music, but it has been said that a greater music will be made before Ilúvatar by the many voices of the Ainur and the children of Ilúvatar after the End of Days.

Second page

Si in lind Ilúvatar nathar teliad dîr, a no cadu min lû i beded dîn, an bân tre-cheniathir i iest dîn mi i berin dîn, a bân istathir i heniad o bân, ah Ilúvatar annatha na i noeth dîn i Naur Thurin, naul gellweg. Dan thî Ilúvatar hamp a lastant, ah anann thiant maer anden, an i 'ling garn ú 'waiss.
Dan sui i lind belthant, toll min chûn Belegurth an riged naid i olthad în; ti ú hui i min lind Ilúvatar; an anírn galad i valan ah aglar en-ethad i óniel anden.
Na Velegurth min Rodyn óniel in aint roveleg tûr ah ist, ah havant perin mi bân in aint i 'wedyr dîn. Ledhant erui min said gofn farad an i Naur Uireb; an anírad gala vrassen mi den an i naid în no cuin, a thiant anden i Ilúvatar ú-ham an i 'aw, a dhrautha i lost ennas. Dan ú-chirn i Naur, an de adh Ilúvatar.
Dan erui heriant gared i noeth în i ú hui chain i 'wedyr dîn.
Perin i noeth hîn rinc thî mi i 'ling dîn, a thî glam toll os-den a lemmaid i linner os-den noner naer.
Ah i nauth dîn prestiel ah i 'ling dîn nuitha; dan vin egor tad heriar siriad i 'ling dîn na i 'ling Belegurth sennui nan nauth i hevennir main. Thî i 'lam Belegurth pelia land; ah in lind i ab-lastennin mistant mi aear glam.
Dan Ilúvatar hamp a lastant an thiant i os i cham dîn arnen alagos ennas, sui nin dholl i dhagranner min am bân mi rûth arnediad i ú-dharnir.
Thî Ilúvatar eriant, ah idh Rodyn cenir i raedant; a chall i grum dîn, a lind eden heriant mi i alagos, sui ah ú-hui i lind núf, a 'all mi dûr a havant bainas eden. Dan i 'lam Belegurth eriant a dhagrant adh den, ah ad dagor en-glamor ennas, savant bregol athan i vregol núf, na i lû bân edh-Rodyn noner naer ah ú-linner, a Velegurth savant i dûr. Thî Ilúvatar ad-eriant, ah idh Rodyn cenir i i thîr dîn non goeol; a chall i fuir dîn, ah alae! Lind nelui gall min glam, ah ú-hui in lind núf. An thiant na vinui moe a velui, lhyss mi lind voe; dan ú-bell no luithiant, a vabant anest tûr ah ist. A thiant na vedui i dâd gling ennas na vînlû núf i cham dîn Ilúvatar a noner ú-imu. I vinui non nûr a land a vain, dan ú-chorthred, adh nírnaeth, o vas i vainas dîn toll.


English:

Now the musics of Ilúvatar will be played correctly, and be shaped in the time of their speaking, for all will fully understand his wish in their half, and all will know the understanding of all, and Ilúvatar will give to their thoughts the Secret Fire, being joyful. But now Ilúvatar sat and listened, and for a long time it seemed good to him, for the music had no stains. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to weave things of his own dreaming; they are not as those in the air of Ilúvatar; for he desired growing the divine power and glory of the dividing that was given to him. To Melkor in the Ainur was given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a half in all the gifts of his brethren.
He had travelled alone into the void places hunting for the Eternal Fire; for desire grew white hot in him for his own things to be alive, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar did not think for the Void, and he was weary that it was empty there. But he did not find the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar.
But alone he began having his own thoughts that (were) not as those of his brethren.
A half of these thoughts he wove now in his own music, and now a confused noise came around him and voices who sang around him they were sad.
And their thought was disturbed and their music was stopped short; but one or two began flowing their music to the music of Melkor instead to the thought that they possessed first. Then the clamour of Belegurth spread wide; and the airs that had been heard before strayed in a sea of confused noise. But Ilúvatar sat and listened for it seemed that around his royal-chair there was a storm of wind, as of dark waters that battled one upon all in endless anger that did not stop.
Now Ilúvatar rose, and the Ainur saw that he smiled; and he lifted his left hand, and a new theme began in the storm, like and not like the theme before, and it grew in power and had new beauty.
But the clamour of Melkor rose and battled with it, and again a battle of confused noise there was, it was more violent than before, to the time all of the Ainur were sad and they did not sing, and Melkor had the mastery. Now Ilúvatar rose again, and the Ainur saw that his countenance was terrible; and he lifted his right hand, and behold! A third theme grew in the clamour, and it was not as the themes before. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, soft rustling sounds in soft airs; but it could not be quenched and it took to itself power and knowledge. And it seemed at last there were two musics at once before the seat of Ilúvatar and they were not identical. The first was deep and wide and beautiful, but not quick, with a lamentation, from where its beauty came.

Third page

I daid garn thî i hîdh în, dan non brui, ah arnediad; a non ú-lend, dan sennui glam sui rym go-rû i istanner mîn egor dâd lind. A dhamp pored i 'ling Veleg adh i vregol i lammad dîn, dan thiant i i 'ellui dîn lind mabant a rigant mi i 'ling în. Min ened i dhagor hen, ias i themais Ilúvatar rithant a rinc norn min i nîn, Ilúvatar eriant an lû nelui, ah i thîr dîn no goeol. Thî orthant i gemaid dîn, a na minlû, nûr athan i Iâ, brand athan i Venel, sui vaeg sui i galad e-chen Ilúvatar, i 'ling darn. Thî agarfant Ilúvatar, a bent 'Beleg idh Rodyn, ah i Roveleg Belegurth dan i ista, a bân idh Rodyn, i im Ilúvatar, i naid hen i linner oh, annathon ed anden, a genitholir i echeditholir. A len, Belegurth, cenithol i ú lind telia i ú-hâf i cheniad dîn mi nin, ú-ben echedir i 'ling eng im. Iesta sen natha dan i 'aror nîn min echaded naid aglareb, i est ú-idhrant. Thî idh Rodyn gostar, ah ú-cheniar i bith i bennir andin; a Velegurth pannant adh felf od i toll rûth thurin. Dan Ilúvatar eriant mi aglar, a den ed od i erdh vain i echant anin Rodyn; ah idh Rodyn den aphadar.
Dan ir tellir min Gaw, Ilúvatar pent andin 'Alae i 'ling lîn!'
Ah aun indemm andin, annad cened andin ir núf erui lared; a gennir Ardhon eden echaded lim, a non corn min Gaw, a chirn ennas, dan non ú o den. A dirnir ah idhranner, i Ardhon hen heria edrad i 'obennas dîn a thiant andin i guinant a 'all. Ah ir idh Rodyn tíriel an lû a noner dînen Ilúvatar ad-bent:
'Alae, i 'ling lîn! Se i deliad lîn; a chiritholir mi hi, pân i naid hain i thia i est echant egor gonant.
A len, Belegurth, hirithol pân i noeth thurin i ind în, a genithol ti dan perin e-bân a dadui an i aglar dîn. Ah oh naid athan i naid hin Ilúvatar pent na in Rodyn na i lû han, ah adh i rínas dîn oh i bith dîn, ah i ist gerir oh i 'ling i est echant, idh Rodyn istar man nóniel, a no, a van telitha, a de ú-órui naid ú-gerir.


English:

The second held now its own peace, but it was loud, and endless; and it was not sweet, but rather a clamour like trumpets trumpeting together that knew one or two airs. And it strived drowning the Great Music with the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its triumphant air it took and it wove in its own music. In the middle of this battle, where the halls of Ilúvatar jerked and a twitch ran into the silences, Ilúvatar rose for a third time, and his face was terrible. Now he raised both of his hands, and at once, deep beyond the Abyss, high beyond the Firmament, as piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music stopped. Now Ilúvatar spoke, and he said 'Mighty are the Ainur, and the mightiest is Melkor; but that he knows, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, these things that you sang about, I give forth to you, and you will see what you have made. And you, Melkor, you will see that no air is played that does not possess its beginning in me, no one changes the music save myself. He wishes this will be but my doer in fashioning glorious things, that he himself has not pondered. Now the Ainur feared, and they did not understand the words that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with emotion of which came secret anger. Now Ilúvatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the beautiful regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him.
But when they came into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them 'Behold your music!'
And he gave a vision to them, giving sight to them where before only hearing; and they saw a new World fashioned clear, and it was globed in the Void, and it was found there, but it was not of it. And as they gazed and pondered, this World began opening its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a time and were silent, Ilúvatar spoke again: 'Behold your music! This is your playing; and you will all find in here, all those things that it seems that he fashioned himself or reckoned. And you, Melkor, you will find all the secret thoughts of your inner mind, and you will see they are but a half of the all, and second to its glory! And about things beyond these things Ilúvatar spoke to the Ainur at that time, and with their memory about his words, and the knowledge they hold about the music that he made himself, the Ainur know what has been, and is, and what will come, and it is not common they do not see things.

Fourth page

Dan naid ennas ú-genir, ú erui egor go-garfad; an na úben dan anest Ilúvatar tengiant pân i gâr andin, a vi endrainn bân etholo naid eden, ah ú-genir toled, an ú-delir od io anann. A non i hui i indemm hen oh i Ardhon teliant andin, idh Rodyn cennir garn naid oh i ú-nauthanner. A gennir adh elvennui i doled i-chîn Ilúvatar ah i mar echant andin; a gennir i est min mudad i 'ling dîn echennir i mar hen, a dan ú-istasser i theled dîn athan i vainas în.
An i chîn Ilúvatar din onnen erui; a dellir adh i lind nelui, a ú-noner min lind i Ilúvatar echant na i onnad, ah ú vîn idh-Rodyn din echennir.
Ir din cennir, i athan din melanner, naul naid athan idh Rodyn, gwain a lain, mi ias cennir i ind Ilúvatar, a 'elianner pîn i haelas dîn, i núf dholthant od idh Rodyn.
Thî, i chîn Ilúvatar ti Edhil ah Edain, i Mainennin ah i Aphadrim. A vi bân in eglair en-Ardhon, i themais dîn ah bethy, ah i noer dîn, Ilúvatar cill sad an i dhorthad dî min Nûr Lû a vin enedh e-giliath arnediad.
Ah i mar hen thiant nad bîn an i nauthar erui oh i arodas idh-Rodyn, a ú oh i laegas dîn 'oeol; sui mabathar aen pân i barth Arda an i onnad thafn a den orthatha na i enedh i daen dîn na i lû sâf saer athan nelf; egor nauthar erui oh i dauras en Ardhon, i ndan idh Rodyn echedir, ah ú i díras na i echedir pân naid mi den.
Dan ir in Rodyn cennir i mar hen mi indemm a gennir i chîn Ilúvatar eriad mi den, i roveleg idh-Rodyn hebir pân i nauth dîn ah i anírad dîn nad i had han. Ah od i Rodyn hin, Belegurth non i Chîr sui non min onnad i roveleg idh-Rodyn i linnar min Gling. A bant úthennais, na ech na i onnad, i anírn ledhed ennas an dorthad pân naid an i maer i-chîn Ilúvatar; torthad i chwind e-laug ah i ring i tell trî den.
Dan anírn sennui bauglad na i innas dîn Edhil ah Edain, anirad in aint i Ilúvatar pent annatha andin; ah iestant ech saved bŷr a hedryn, a Chîr estatha, a no Herdir or innais.


English:

But things there are they do not see, not alone or speaking together, for to no one but to himself Ilúvatar has revealed all that he holds for them, and in all ages come forth new things, and they did not see coming, for they do not come from long ago. And it was that as this vision about the World was played to them, the Ainur saw it held things about which they had not thought. And they saw with wonder the coming of the children of Ilúvatar and the home he made for them; and they saw that they themselves in the labouring of their music had made this home, and yet they did not know its purpose beyond its own beauty.
For the children of Ilúvatar he conceived them alone; and they came with the third theme, and they were not in the theme that Ilúvatar fashioned at the beginning, and not one of the Ainur fashioned them.
When they saw them, the greater they loved them, being things beyond the Ainur, new and free, in where they saw the inner thought of Ilúvatar and they learned a little of his wisdom, that before was hidden from the Ainur.
Now, the children of Ilúvatar are the Elves and men, the Firstborn and the Followers. And in all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces and its fires, Ilúvatar chose somewhere for their dwelling in the Deeps of Time and in the middle of the innumerable stars. And this home seemed a little thing for those who they thought alone about the nobility of the Ainur, and not about their terrible sharpness; as those who would take all the field of Arda for the beginning of a pillar and will raise it to the core of its summit, to the time it is bitter beyond a needle; or they think alone about the vastness of the World, that yet the Ainur shape, and not the straightness to that they shape all things in it.
But when the Ainur saw this land in a vision and saw the children of Ilúvatar arising in it, the mightiest of the Ainur put all their thought and their desire to that place. And of these Ainur, Melkor was the Lord as he was in the beginning the mightiest of the Ainur who sang in the Music.
And he spoke untruths to himself at the beginning, that he desired travelling there and controlling all things for the good of the children of Ilúvatar; controlling the whirling of the heat and the cold that came through him. But he desired rather oppressing to his will Elves and Men, desiring the gifts that Ilúvatar said he will give to them; and he wished himself to possess vassals and faithful ones, and to be called Lord, and to be Master over wills.

Fifth page

Dan idh Rodyn tirnir am i mar hen min laind daur en-Ardhon, i in Edhil estathar Arda, i Geven; ah i chuin dîn gellanner mi galad, ah i chin dîn cennir pil i bannar adh gell; dan adh i râf en-aear fellir pen-îdh. A gennir in-gwaew ah i 'welu, ah i naid od i Arda echant, o ang a gond a geleb a gôl a naid athan i naid hin, dan o bân i naid hin, nen daethanner rovaer. A bent adh in Eldar i mi nen cuinad dan i 'lamor en Gling-idh-Rodyn athan i 'lamor mi naid mi i Geven hen, ah athan perin i chîn Ilúvatar lastanner ú-fadred na i lemmaid en-aear, a dan ú-istanner an i lastanner.
Thî na nen i Rodon i in Edhil estar Ulu seidiant i nauth dîn, ah o bân, Ilúvatar den golthant i ronûr oh gling. Dan en-gwely a gwaew Aran Einior ihdrant, i i rawarod idh-Rodyn.
En-echaded e-Geven Gaul nauthant, na den Ilúvatar aun curu ah ist sui na Belegurth, dan i 'ell a vlaud Gaul de min dass en-echaded, ah min naid i echódiel, ah ú mi gared egor i dûr în; a man anna a ú-chêb, a de lain o brestad, ui-ledhed na dass eden.
Ah Ilúvatar agarfant na Ulu, a bent: "Cenol ú i hi mi i ardh hen bîn min Nûr Lû Belegurth echant auth am i ardh lîn? Nauthant oh helch pen-edrein, a dan ú-ranc i vainas i eithil lîn, egor i aelin lîn lim. Alae i loss, ah i mudad goru e-niss! Belegurth nauthant oh ûr a naur pen-dorthad, ah ú-ranc i anírad lîn, egor dharo i gling en-aear.
Alae sennui i challas ah aglar e-fein, ah i chîth ui-ledhed, a lasto na i dhannad e-ross am i Geven! Ah mi i fein hin túgiel na Aran Einior, i vellon lîn, i melol."
Thî Ulu aun dangweth: "Mi thannas, Nen sâf vainas athan i vainas i i chûn nîn idhrant, i nauth nîn thurin ú-nauthant i lossivor, egor mi bân i gling nîn i dhannad e-ross ennas. Hirithon Aran Einior, a den ah im ceritham gling anuir an i 'ell lîn!"
Ah Aran Einior ah Ulu od i onnad ti gwedyr, a mi bân naid buianner adh vronwe i innas Ilúvatar.
Dan sui Ulu agorfant, a hui idh-Rodyn tirnir am i indemm hen, mábiel athan, a dholen od i gened dîn; a thiant andin i vi i lû han cennir nad eden, Môr, i ú-istanner núf eng mi nauth


English:
But the Ainur looked upon this home in the vast spaces of the World, which the Elves called Arda, the Earth, and their hearts rejoiced in light, and their eyes saw colours that were filled with joy; but with the roaring of the sea they felt restless. And they saw the winds and the air, and the things from which Arda was fashioned, from iron and stone and silver and gold, and things beyond these things, but from all these things, water they praised best. And it is said by the Eldar that in water is living yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur beyond the echo in things in this Earth, and beyond half of the children of Ilúvatar listen unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet they do not know for what they listen.
Now to water that Ainur who the Elves named Ulmo set his thought, and of all, Ilúvatar taught him the deepest about music. But of the airs and the winds Manwë pondered, who is the noblest of the Ainur. Of the fashioning of the Earth Aulë thought, to him Ilúvatar gave skill and knowledge as to Melkor, but the joy and pride of Aulë it is in the task of fashioning, and in the thing that is fashioned, and not in holding or in his own mastery; for what he gives and does not keep, and he is free from troubling, travelling ever to some new task.
And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and he said: "Thou seest not that here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor has fashioned war upon your realm? He thought about bitter cold without borders, and yet he did not destroy the beauty of your fountains, or your clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning labouring of frost! Melkor thought about heat and fire without control, and he did not destroy your desiring, or halt the music of the sea.
Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the ever travelling mists, and listen to the falling of the rain upon the Eath! An in these clouds you are brought to Manwë, your friend, whom you love."
Now Ulmo gave reply: "In truth, Water has beauty beyond the beauty that my heart pondered, my secret thought did not think of the snowflake, or in all my music the falling of the rain there. I will find Manwë, and he and I will make music forever for your joy!"
And Manwë and Ulmo from the beginning they are sworn brothers, and in all things they served with faith the will of Ilúvatar. But as Ulmo spoke, and as the Ainur gazed upon this vision, it was taken beyond, and hidden from their seeing; and it seemed to them that in that time they saw a new thing, Darkness, that they did not know before save in thought.

Sixth page

Dan melthanner adh i vainas en-indemm a lúthanner min dengiad en-Ardhon; doll ennas na naul, ah i 'ûr dîn penniel adh den; an i 'obennas ú-drenóriel ah i rind lû ú-echannir mi bant ir i indemm móbiel athan. A vîn egor dâd pennir i i indemm dóriel núf i veth e-Dûr Edain ah i 'wannad e-Mainennin; a man, dan i Gling or bân, i Melain ú-gennir sui adh gened in ab-Endrainn egor i Veth en-Ardhon.
Thî idh Rodyn non ú-'ellweg, dan Ilúvatar iallant andin, a bent; 'iston i anírad i 'ûr lîn i gennir natha thand, ú erui mi i noeth dîn, dan sui ech, le.
Thî pedin: Eä! Dafo i naid hin no! A etholithon min Gaw i Naur Uireb, a natha na i chûn en-Ardhon, ah i Ardhon natha; a len i aníro ledhathar dad mi den.'
A chorthren idh Rodyn cennir hae calad, sui pe non faun adh chûn guiad naur; ah istasser i hen non ú indemm erui, dan i Ilúvatar echant naid eden: Eä, i Ardhon i no.
Toll i idh-Rodyn mîn egor tâd dorthar adh Ilúvatar athan in rind en-Ardhon; dan odrim e-roveleg a rovain, mabanner i dhâf Ilúvatar a lennir dad mi den.
Dan hen Ilúvatar agorfant, egor de i moe od i veleth dîn, i i dûr nîn natha gleiniad min ardhon, no mi de anuir, na i vethen dîn, sui i di i guil dîn, a de i guil dîn. A de i estiel i Melain, i thuir en-ardhon. Dan ir i Melain minner mi Eä cennir den adh anwar mi i chent dîn, an non sui pe ú-nad echódiel i gennir mi indemm, a bân dóriel an i onnad, a dan pen-gadu, a non fuin. An i Gling Veleg non dan i 'alas ah edlothiad nauth min Thaim Pen-Lû, ah i Indemm han erui; dan thî minner mi na i onnad Lû, ah i Melain cennir i i Ardhon cennir non dan indemm a linnant oh núf, a moe i echadir den.
Herianner i vudad dîn veleg mi ery ú-onoded ah ú-gennin, a mi endrainn arnediad ah ú-reniad, na min Nûr Lû a vin ened e-themais Eä ennas na i lû han ah i had han ias i mar i-chîn Ilúvatar echant.
A mi i dass han i berin vain mabant adh Aran Einior ah Gaul ah Ulu; dan Velegurth non ennas od i lû vinui, a leuthant mi bân i agorir, echaded den pe pôl na i anírad în a theled; a narthant noer veleg.
Ir Geven non dan neth a bant naur Velegurth ídhrant den, a bent na i Melain: 'Se natha i arnad în; ah eston den na im!'


English:
But they were seduced with the beauty of the vision and they were enchanted in the revealing of the World; it came there to being, and their hearts were filled with it; for the history was not told to the end and the circles of time they were not fashioned in full when the vision was taken beyond. And one or two said that the vision was halted before the end of the Mastery of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; why, yet the Music is above all, the Valar did not see as with sight the after-Ages or the End of the World.
Now the Ainur were not joyful, but Ilúvatar called to them, and he said; 'I know the desiring of your hearts that what you saw will be in truth, not alone in your thoughts, but as you yourselves, you are.
Now I say: Eä! Let these things be! And I will come forth into the Void the Eternal Flame, and it will be to the heart of the world, and the World will be; and you who desire you will travel down into it.'
And quickly the Ainur saw distantly a light, as if it was a cloud with a living heart of fire; and they knew that this it was not a vision only, but that Ilúvatar had fashioned a new thing: Eä, the World that be.
It came that of the Ainur one or two they dwell with Ilúvatar beyond the circles of the World; but many of the greatest and most beautiful, they took the permission of Ilúvatar and travelled down into it.
But this Ilúvatar spoke, or it is the need of their love, that their power will be bounded in the world, to be in it forever, to its ending, so that they are its life and it is their life. And it is that they were named the Valar, the powers of the world. But when the Valar entered in Eä they saw it with awe in their eyes, for it was as if nothing had been made that they saw in vision, and all was stopped for the beginning, and yet shapeless, and it was dark. For the Great Music was but the growth and blossoming of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision that alone; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar saw that the World they saw was but a vision and sung about before, and it was necessary that they fashion it.
They began their great labour in deserts uncounted and unseen, and in ages unnumbered and forgotten, to in the Deeps of Time and in the core of the great halls of Eä there was at that time and in that place where the home of the children of Ilúvatar was fashioned. And in that task the chief half was taken by Manwë, and Aulë and Ulmo; but Melkor was there from the first ime, and he picked up in all that they did, fashioning it if he could to his own desires and purpose; and he kindled great fires. When Earth was but young and full of fire Melkor desired it, and he said to the Valar: 'This will be my own kingdom; and I name it to myself!'

Seventh page

Dan Aran Einior non i chanar Belegurth min noeth Ilúvatar, a non i delior vain en-lind dadui i Ilúvatar eriant dan i 'lam Belegurth; a nallant anest faer odrim roveleg ah ú-roveleg, a dellir dad mina i phairth Arda a noner athweg na Aran Einior, an gostad Velegurth deritha aen i veth i vudad dîn anuir, a Geven peliatha aen núf edlothiant.
Ah Aran Einior pent na Velegurth: 'i arnad hen avathol mabo anech, an i Melain mudasser si anann.'
A dhagrad ennas adh Velegurth ah i Melain; ah an i lû han Velegurth ledhant na airdh athan ah agor i anírant; dan ú-leithiant i anírad en-Arnad Arda od i chûn nîn.
Thî i Melain mabanner andin cant a bil; a hui dellir min Ardhon adh veleth i-chîn Ilúvatar, an i harthanner, i chaint dîn noner sui i gennir min Indemm Ilúvatar, eng mi arodas ah aglar ero.
Athan hen, i gant dîn toll od i ist dîn en-Ardhon i gíniel, sennui i en-Ardhon erui; ah ú-moe den sevir, eng erui sui iuitham hammad, a dan pelim no hell ah i guil vîn ú bîn.
De i i Melain pelir pado, pe anírathar, hell, a na i lû han in Edhil ú-belir ceno din, dan di ennas. Dan ir aníram an chammad est i Melain mabo andin caint anu ah inu; anhan sevim od i onnad dîn, a de dan ed annad mi i gilad dîn. ú-echaded adh i gilad, sui adh men anu ah inu cenitha aen adh i chammad den ú-echad adh den. Dan i chaint i Phin Veleg din hammanner ú na bân lui sui i chaint in-Erain ah Verith i-chîn Ilúvatar; an din hammathar mi i nauth în, i gerithar mi gaint arodas ah achas. Ah i Melain cannir andin sedyr odrim, roveleg ah ú-roveleg sui den, a go-vudasser min buigad e-Geven ah i dhared i 'laim dîn.
Thî Belegurth cenn i garnen, ah i i Melain panner bo Geven sui duir pelol ceno, hemennin min chammad en-Ardhon, a noner milui ah aglareb na geno, a gellweg, ah i i Geven gall sui hant an i 'ell dîn, an i 'laim dîn noner dínen. i anírad dîn gall beleg mi den; ah hammant est eithro, dan sui i innas dîn ah i lhoer i dhostant mi den i gant han non vorn a goeol.



English:
But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the thoughts of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief player of the second air that Ilúvatar raised against the clamor of Melkor; and he called to himself many spirits greater and not greater, and they came down into the fields of Arda and they were helpful to Manwë, for fearing Melkor should halt the end of their labour forever, and Earth would wither before it flowered. And Manwë said to Melkor: 'This kingdom you will not take for yourself, for the Valar laboured here for a long time'. And there was battle with Melkor and the Valar; and for that time Melkor travelled to regions beyond and did what he desired; but he did not release the desiring of the Kingdom of Arda from his heart.
Now the Valar took to them shape and colour, and as they came into the World by love of the children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, their shapes were as that they saw in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save in nobility and splendour alone.
Beyond this, their shape comes from their knowledge of the World that was seen, rather than of the World alone; and it is not necessary they possess it, save only as we use clothing, and yet we can be naked and our life is not small.
It is that the Valar can walk, if they want, naked, and at that time the Elves cannot see them, yet they are there. But when they want to clothe themselves, the Valar take to them forms of male and female; for that they had from their beginning, and it is but given forth in their choosing, not fashioned by the choosing, as with us male and female could be seen by clothing but it is not fashioned by it. But the shapes the Great Ones clothe themselves are not at all times like the shapes of the Kings and Queens of the children of Ilúvatar, for they will clothe them in their own thought, that they will see in shapes of nobility and dread. And the Valar called to them many faithful companions, greatest and not greatest as them, and they laboured together in the cleaning of the Earth and the halting of its clamours. Now Melkor saw what they had done, and that the Valar walked on Earth as powers you could see, having been clothed in the clothing of the World, and they were lovely and glorious to see, and joyful, and that the Earth grew as a garden for their joy, and its clamours were silent. His desiring grew great in him; and he clothed himself also, but as his inner thought and the venom that burned in him that form was dark and terrifying.

Eighth page

A ledhant dad am Arda mi dûr ah arodas i non beleg athan i veleg e-Belain, sui orod i bada min aear a havant i dhol dîn or i foen a chammant mi cheleg a riged adh osp a naur; ah i galad i-chin Belegurth noner sui lach i tharn adh ûr ah eitha adh chelch.
Thî heriant i dhagor vinui e-Belain adh Velegurth an i dûr Arda; ah oh i dhegyr hain in Edhil istar dan dithen. An i narnen si tôl od i Melain, i in Edhil pennir min dhôr Balannor, ah adh i gelianner; dan bîn erui i Melain naranner oh i dhagor núf i doled in Edhil.
Dan nóriel adh in Edhil i i Melain ui-raithanner, dan Velegurth ennas, i dorthar i Geven a den echado an i doled an i Mainennin; ah echanner dŷr a Velegurth din ragant; laid echanner a Velegurth den orthant am; eryd echanner a Velegurth din hant dad; aeair echanner a Velegurth din regant eithirianner; ah ú-nad savant sîdh egor doll na 'alas vronadui, an sui i Melain herianner tass, Belegurth den ragatha aen. A dan i vudad dî non ú bân an ú-nad; a dan ú-had a vi ú dass i innas dîn echódiel pant, a vi bân naid noner mi bil a gant athan i i Melain aníranner, ú-chorthren i Geven echódiel a non tanc.
A non i i mar i-chîn Ilúvatar tengediel na i vedui min Nuir Lû ah adh in elenath arnediad.


English:
And he travelled down upon Arda in power and nobility that was great beyond the great of the Valar, as a mountain that walks in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clothed in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that is withered with heat and stabs with ice cold.
Now began the first battle of the Valar with Melkor for the mastery of Arda; and about those battles the Elves know but a little. For what has been told here comes from the Valar with whom the Elves spoke in the land of Valinor, and by whom they learnt, but a little alone the Valar told about the battles before the coming of the Elves.
Yet it was told by the Elves that the Valar ever strived, yet Melkor was there, that they control the Earth and fashion it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they fashioned lands and Melkor broke them; valleys they fashioned and Melkor raised them up; mountains they fashioned and Melkor threw them down; seas they fashioned and Melkor broke them to flow out; and nothing held peace or came to lasting growth, and as the Valar began a task, Melkor would break it. And yet their labouring was not all for nothing; and yet nowhere and in no task their will was fashioned full, and in all things it was in colour and shape beyond that which the Valar had desired, slowly the Earth was fashioned and it was firm.
And it was that the dwelling of the children of Ilúvatar was established at the last in the Deeps of Time and with the innumerable stars.


Reconstructions
Verbs:
Cautha- = To startle (From Capta-, a Quenya verb, changed into Sindarin)
Caf- = To bow (From Caw-/Cav-, a Quenya verb, changed into Sindarin)
Drautha- = To tire, weary (from Quenya I believe)
Maba- = To take (MAPA, Mab)
Raeda- To smile (from Quenya)
Por- = To drown, choke (Quenya Quor-)
Pol- = To be able to (can, could)
Nathra- = To weave (Nathron is attested)
Def- = To strive
Tengia- = To reveal, to show
Carfa- = To speak
Cil- = To choose

Havant is not from Hav- but from Saf- 'to have (possess)'
Ham is from Sam- 'to think', it is an assumption to differentiate it from Hamp = He/she/it sat

Vocabulary:
Núf = Before (Changed into Sindarin from nóvo, Quenya.) I used to use ú-ab ('not after') but this is rather neater.
Salbin = Viola (Changed into Sindarin from Qenya, PE12)
Salf = Lyre (From Quenya)
Salbindel = Violins (From Qenya, PE12)
Gling = Music (I intend to go back and rewrite some of the parts where I changed 'music' to 'air/tune' and change them from 'lind' to 'gling' at some point).
Belegurth = Melkor. Obviously he's more commonly known as Morgoth Bauglir, but this is meant to be Doriathrin Sindarin, before the time that he was given that name.
Mînlû = Once (one time)
Imu = Same, identical (IMYA, IM) - it should become 'Im' but I detest homophones... assuming the YA becomes a W which would then turn into a U is perhaps a stretch, but meh.
Cemaid = Dual plural suffix on Cam (+ ad).
órui = Commonly (it's an alternative to Ilaurui which is reckoned as 'daily').
Rínas = Memory
mina = into, mi+na, to distinguish from 'in' (this proposed by David Salo)

Everything else is attested. Phonology changes come from scouring PE19, and what little information there is on Qenya in the Qenyaqetsa.
Last edited by Xandarien on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:56 am, edited 39 times in total.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:09 am

:shock:

I mean... :shock: :shock: :o

This is huge ! Wonderful ! A can't of course check the translation and accuracy, but I'm indeed impressed. I hope you'll have many reactions, it's always interesting to get as much feedback as possible !

and ... em... do you... have the ... intention... the project... to... well... have it transcribed into Tengwar ?

I don't know if it's something you would be interested in. And if you are, I'm not sure if you'd dare to ask :D

I think it's very interesting, and I would be honored to handle that. But little by little, probably, as I don't have that much free time :P

I can imagine myself writing this by hand on a papyrus or something, it could end in a really nice design... mmmm, I'll think of it ;)
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Almatolmen » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:29 am

I don't know enough to offer a useful critique or any suggestions, but I hope that there are people out there who can.

I agree with Isildilme that this is an exciting project. And ambitious. There seems to be a number of such projects right now.

It'd be great to see a transliteration and artistic calligraphic rendering of the Sindarin text.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:08 pm

Hadn't planned on getting it transcribed, no! (You'd be there forever :D )
You're right though, it would look very good on a scroll of some sort, mustn't give you such wicked ideas!

@ Alma

Far as critiquing goes, I'd probably get some criticisms for the liberal use of Neo-Sindarin (there's at least two verbs I've had to construct myself from Quenya, namely 'to bow'). I've used 'ah' for 'and' as it's meant to be more 'archaic' in style, so the Doriathrin word fits better in my opinion than 'ar' or the 3rd age 'adh' (plus that runs into difficulties when trying to distinguish between 'and' and 'with/by'). Other than that, I know the syntax is correct, and all that jazz.

Is it worth me carrying on with though, this is the question. I prefer translating poetry, it's a lot more interesting, but I had the idea of 'hmm I wonder if I could translate a book into Sindarin', much in the same way that Helge Fauskanger is translating the entire Bible into Quenya (mad man).
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Almatolmen » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:33 pm

I'd say that as long as it is something that engages you, carry on! It is your passion and conviction that supplies the power to complete this.

HF is a splendid fool. Just imagine trying to deal with Biblical vocabulary using the sadly meager resources JRRT has left us. Even coming up with Neo-Quenya is an incredible challenge. It could certainly DRIVE him mad!
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:01 am

I thought the same, that the defenders of pure Sindarin would criticize a lot. And I understand and agree, but I understand you too, and your desire of using your knowledge and try to create new material in Sindarin, even if we have no idea of the % of accuracy of the result. And while Tolkien texts are publicated, you might find out that much of what you did would need to be changed, and so if you translate a book (for example), you might have to start over with every new publication ! But that is a risk that you can decide to take and to assume. We actually all have to do that... or stop translating and transcribing, using only the material that Tolkien published without any addition.

I'll probably keep it in mind, so that when I have a little time I can transcribe it and if I end doing it I'll let you know ! I hope to have free time soon ! :)

I think that because of the nature of the text, I might use the Mode of Beleriand, the original Elvish mode for Sindarin (as far as I know), and not the Tengwar/Tehtar mode (Gondor mode)...
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Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:17 am

Well I've run into 'issues' shall we say (effectively been run off from another forum today) with people who disagree with my methods of translation, which genuinely upsets me as I always *always* stay as close to the attested material we have (the PE issues are brilliant for new ideas!) as possible. I don't see the point in refusing to expand the language simply because 'well that word was never written anywhere despite the fact it fits all the rules that Tolkien set down'.

I quite like it when you come across something new (new published nowadays rather than anything else) that makes you go 'Ah so THAT'S how it should be'. PE17 particularly is brilliant for that, so many little bits and pieces, but there's also other things like - I've put a lot of effort into expanding the Sindarin vocabulary, and I finally! managed to get my hands on the Goldogrin vocabulary, which contains some words that Sindarin doesn't, and that moment when you go through the method of turning that into Sindarin and it's identical to what you yourself had already worked out from Qenya or Quenya, oh it's amazing :D. (And makes me feel confident that what I'm doing is correct!)

Anyway I shall probably carry on with this at some point, but I think I'll do some more bits of poetry or somesuch first.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:03 am

As I said earlier, I understand both points of view. As Sindarin (and Quenya, and all of what Tolkien invented) is meant to be a whole language, we cannot expland, event if we use the rules we know, and be sure that what we do is correct. We can be pretty sure that Tolkien (and Elves) would understand what we mean, but not that it would be accurate. As long as we accept that and present our work this way, saying that this could be how an Elf would say it in Sindarin, then I think people should be more tolerant. But many people don't make the difference between someone who tries to stick to the rules but extrapolates from them to be able to compose with this language, and someone who don't care about anything and invents his own language saying it's Tolkien's Sindarin.

I sometimes use comparisons like this one, with French (as it is my language and I know what I'm talking about !). If I give examples of French and some rules and a wordlist to someone who never heard about it and about any other latin language, and in this stuff he sees that
J'ai un manteau bleu.
means "I have a blue coat." If he want's to say that he has a beautiful coat ("I have a beautiful coat."), and that in the wordlist it says that "beautiful" is "beau", then he might say
J'ai un manteau beau.
If I hear that, I'll know perfectly what he means. But it's not good, because in this case the adjective should be before the noun, so the correct sentence would be :
J'ai un beau manteau.

And the examples are numerous. This one is a little simple example, but with verbs it can get worst. And adverbs, that can be constructed with adjectives, but in some cases if we do it we end with a word that doesn't exist. I'm pretty sure I don't learn you anything here, but as the same can happen with Sindarin, Quenya, etc., we have to keep in mind that our Sindarin/Quenya probably sounds the same as when someone not used with English (just take me as example !), despite of being aware of many rules, says things that are incorrect. As simple as to use the wrong conjugation and to say "I eated" instead of "I ate", or more complex.

Should we say to these people to stop trying to talk and write in English or French, just because they don't master it ? If yes, I should stop to talk English and I should quit this forum and never talk to any of you again, except if you have a perfect French so that you are allowed to use it with me ! :lol: But I agree that they should not publish things or present them as "THIS is French" and to teach it to others saying that they master it. This is what some people cannot tolerate with Tolkien languages (I think). To me, as long as things are presented as "Neo-Sindarin/Neo-Quenya", and that we are honest saying that it can be (and is probably) incorrect because we don't know all the rules and we don't know all the exceptions to these rules, people are aware of the problem and can decide of the risk of imperfection they are ready to take.

I don't say that to criticize you. Anyway, I said in my first reaction that your work was amazing :). I just explain my point of view on the very large subject of translations into Tolkien's languages... popularizing it so that if people who know nothing about the subject come across and read, they can see what the debate is about :). As you know, I did a few translation into Neo-Quenya myself, starting with my tattoo, and I know that it may be incorrect because I had to extrapolate with verbs that had not been conjugated in that tense by Tolkien, and to construct the sentence without the possibility to proove that the word order should be that way in that precise context with these exact words, but I accept that risk.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:24 am

Isildilmë wrote: As simple as to use the wrong conjugation and to say "I eated" instead of "I ate", or more complex.



Just to pick up on this bit in particular, this bit's a good example with Sindarin actually, there's several semi-irregular verbs, where if you made them regular, would be the exact equivalent of saying "I drinked" or "I eated", and some people do try and make them regular, but hey.

But I agree that they should not publish things or present them as "THIS is French" and to teach it to others saying that they master it. This is what some people cannot tolerate with Tolkien languages (I think).


Yes, exactly, I do try and make the point on my website that these are extrapolations and is termed Neo-Sindarin, I'm certainly not saying that this is definitive (that would be arrogrant!) But if it matches as closely as possible (and I've spent a long time on the phonology!), that's all I can do, lol, and I don't think I deserve the sort of criticisms I've been receiving.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:40 am

As long as you make these points clear each time, I don't think you should mind about any criticisms in link with the said points. Being aware and honest about this problem, you certainly don't deserve that.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Almatolmen » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:21 am

In this type of situation, transparency about what you're doing, how you're doing it, and why you're doing it a certain way is vital. As long as anyone looking at your work is clear on these things, they have no grounds for criticism, unless, as in the case of film ultra-purists, they feel that it shouldn't be done at all. There's no way to convince them anyway, so ignore 'em!
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:17 am

Added my reconstructions to the initial post. :)

And thanks Alma and Isildilme.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby avogel57 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:30 pm

If I may toss in my two cents:
I read a couple of Tolkien biographies years and years ago, and one particular motive stuck with me. I remember him saying, in interviews and writings, that because of all of the invastions and meldings of culture, there was no distinctly BRITISH narrative, cultural history, etcetera. The closest thing would have been the Druids, or Celts, or Picts, or the other cultures whose histories and languages were wiped out by the Romans and later the Normans and whoever else invaded. Because of that, he wanted to create a uniquely English narrative. However, he knew he couldn't create anything complete, so he established a framework, for others to later build off of and add to. To that end, I think that you guys are entirely correct in extrapolating from what he wrote, and what you know, to fill in the gaps, and to use educated guessing to make up for what was not created!
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby avogel57 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:56 pm

Xandarien, everyone--

Okay, so I was just talking to Isildilme about this very topic, and she pointed me here! Over the last year or so, I've been working on a project to do a manuscript of the Ainulindale, as an exercise is calligraphy more than anything else. I think I may have enven mentioned this to you at some point. At the time, I was under the impression that translating the entire thing into Elvish, and then transcribing it into Tengwar, was either too time-consuming, or simply not possible given the extant vocabulary. To that end, I plugged all of the English text into an online transcriber and have been off and on working on converting that into some sort of book format. I've got about a hundred pages of three to four sentances each, as the whole story (in my edition at least) is about eight pages of straight text.

However, when I emailed Isildilme to have her take a look at what I was doing, she sent me here, and I'm excited! I have a couple questions for y'all, more opinion than technical.

I had been thinking of translating into Quenya, as the "high" or noble form of Elvish. But, as Sindarin is older, and this particular portion of the story goes back to the beginning of the elves, which would be the more appropriate language for this text? (I guess that's like having an English bible, and asking if you should translate it into Latin or Hebrew lol!)

Secondly, from an artistic point of view, I really prefer a transcription mode that involves Tehtar. For calligraphy and script, it flows so much better and is aesthetically pleasing (see http://avogel57.deviantart.com/art/Wond ... -199199167 and http://avogel57.deviantart.com/art/Nauglamir-252960747 )

This is something that's been more or less backburner, but I'm trying to move forward on it, albiet slowly. IF Sindarin would be more appropriate, and IF it could be transcribed into a suitable mode and font in Tengwar, what kind of timeframe would we be looking at? I'm in no hurry, but at the same time I'd like to move forward, maybe after the holidays; ie, not years and years down the road lol!

What do you folks think? What ideas or input would you offer? All input is welcome =)
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Almatolmen » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:27 pm

Firstly, you can't really speak of two cognate languages being of different ages. Both Quenya and Sindarin are reflexes of a previous language. Now, it can be written earlier or have earlier records, but that's not the same thing. Gothic was written down earlier than Old English, but that doesn't make the language older. At the time that the Bible was being translated into Gothic, centuries before the earliest OE, some form of that language was being spoken somewhere. Latin was recorded before French, but it's not older than French or Spanish or any of the Romance languages because they are reflexes of Latin. Nor is Italian older than Romanian just because it was put into writing earlier. Since all living languages are distant cognates of each other, the same goes for any group of living or extinct languages. Coptic is not older than Arabic, even though the parent of Coptic was first written about 5000 years ago and Arabic much more recently.

Sindarin is more commonly used in ME and among Men. It has probably changed from the proto-language more than Quenya and continued to change more quickly than Quenya.

But it's totally suitable for high cultural matters like this. So it's your choice more than anything else.

According to what I read, Sindarin was first written in a Cirth. Not sure of whether that was the same as that used by the Dwarves or when the transition to Tengwar was made.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:11 pm

@Avogel

Is that a hint you want me to carry on :wink: and finish the rest? I'd be happy to do so, particularly if it's for a bigger project, I was meaning to anyway, I've just been enjoying knocking out some poetry translations the last couple of weeks, they're more instantly gratifying.

What sort of timeframe? Hmm, blimey, don't know really! I'll start working on it this week, I also have a psychology assignment I need to send off (doing my second degree at the moment), and I'm working on a dictionary of Sindarin rhyming words. It's a heck of a job though, and that's really not the English-Sindarin, it's the rewording of the English into a sentence that's actually translatable, and then checking synonyms!

@Alma

Well, Doriathrin Sindarin is arguably older, given that it is the language that Elu Thingol and the Teleri spoke and made from the original Eldarin. The Vanyar/Noldor first had Vanyarin Qenya which later became Quenya, (and then obviously altered again when they came back across from Valinor). There's not a lot in it, admittedly, and obviously they did exist at the same time as each other.

Edit - well, alright, if you look at the language chart, it goes Eldarin - Telerin - Sindarin (Doriathrin) - Sindarin (Exilic) and Eldarin - Qenya - Quenya, so one less step, but :p
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby avogel57 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:59 pm

@Xandarian--
So, do you think it would be appropriate to write it out in Tengwar Sindarin, as opposed to Tengwar English?

@Isildilmë--
If this is done in Sindarin, what would be the appropriate mode of Tengwar to write in? Is there a form that lends itself to the tehtar and the script style that I usually preffer? (I can modify the font later, so long as I know everything is in the correct place :) )

@Alma--
I guess the crux of my question is which language, and form of that language, would seem more appropriate for this particular tale. As a creation myth, I would preffer to keep it with the oldest language known, or at least with the desendants of the original languages, if there is such a thing; I only dabble in the subject matter--y'all are the true experts :)
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby avogel57 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:02 pm

@Xandarien--
To the timeframe, don't worry, I'm in no hurry; this has been ongoing for quite some time. I was looking at *maybe* getting to it over the holidays or early next year :) it's a pretty involved project, and as it's just for fun, I have no timetables or deadlines, only motivation!
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:13 am

Appropriate for it to be translated into Sindarin first you mean? Yes, I don't see why not. The Elves are aware of Eru, the Valar et al, I imagine this is their legend, not ours.

So glad you said 'maybe' next year :rofl:. I'll see what I can do, and I'll post updates here as I go along. I'll be honest, it's not likely to be complete by then. To give you an idea, I do four lines at a time on a whiteboard (doing the next set as I type this actually), I have a thesaurus open for synonyms, and I'm rewording the English as I go along. Fun! :shock:
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:27 am

My turn to pop up here again as come !

If this was my project, I would probably have chosen Quenya, as the Elves in Valinor were talking this language, and I guess that as they were in contact with the Valar, they were more likely to deal with these tales. And I think that Rúmil is the one who composed the Ainulindalë, and his usual language was Quenya, so I guess that the "original" Ainulindalë would have been in Quenya. That is my opinion.

But would it be a problem to have it in Sindarin ? I don't think so. Anyway, depending on who tells the story and to who, the language will change. Was Tolkien wrong telling it in English ? :D I read it in French the first time. Sindarin seems indeed another nice way to tell the story, over all when many Elves quitted Aman and came back to ME, and had to learn Sindarin.

About the Tengwar transcription, I have modes with tehtar as you like them for Quenya (only way to write that one), for English, for Sindarin and for many others. We could just use the one we used for your Nauglamir, if my memory is good, it was a tehtar mode for Sindarin (gotta check the pic to be sure). I just want to point that according to my readings, the Sindarin Tehtar mode was more used by men to write Sindarin (some call it the Gondor mode), while the Elves were known to prefer mode of Beleriand (as on the Moria gate), but this one has almost no tehtar.

So you'll have a decision to take : "fully" Elvish, as and Elf would do for himself and other Elves, or Mannish (or written by an Elf for Men using their usual transcription mode). I don't know you that much, but with what I know of you I think that aethetism will be important in your choice, and as you love tehtar (and I totally agree with that love), you will choose the Tengwar/Tehtar mode as you did for the Nauglamir art.

Whatever you choose, I'll be happy to take in charge the transcription and to send you my Word file so that you can play with fonts and sizes. If it's with Xand's translation, I will be able to start the parts she puts here little by little.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Almatolmen » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:48 am

Quenya and Sindarin are both descendants of the original language, just as English, French, Welsh, Russian, Greek, Hindi, Lithuanian, Farsi, Hittite, Tocharian A and B are all descendants of Proto-Indo-European.

The question you seem to be asking is which language is the closer to the original language of composition, performance, and documentation. Since the general indications are that Quenya is the more conservative of the two, my guess would be that it is closer.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:14 am

I just had a flash. At the end of this, when the whole thing will be translated (if that is finally what happens), I think it would be amazing to also have an audio file from Xand reading the whole text. I know it's a lot, but she has a really nice voice and I love the way she pronunce Sindarin.

I'll put on my Puss-in-boots eyes so you can't refuse Xand :angel:
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If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Almatolmen » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:23 am

I don't have Puss-in-Boot eyes, but I'll get some. It sounds like a grand idea. :rose: <3
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:44 pm

Haha, sure, I do audio files of all my poetry translations, I was planning to one for this anyway!
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Almatolmen » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:03 pm

Great news!
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby avogel57 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:36 pm

So, thinking it over, it seems that Quenya would be the most "appropriate" language, but we haven't got anybody who has already started and is willing to keep going =)

Sindarin would be appropriate, and while the Elves in Valinor would have heard the tale straight from the Valar, there's nothing to say that Orome or some other of the Valar or Maia couldn't have told the same tales to the Elves in ME at the same time. On top of that, Sindarin would be considered more common in ME, and there is no reason these stories coudn't have been written down in a past age in say Imladris or Lothlorien or wherever.

From the aesthetic point of view, I want to use the Tehtar, even if they aren't quite as "correct". Here is a thought, though: if you are plugging the text into the online transcriber, would it only be a matter of a couple of clicks to do both the "correct" way and the tehtar way at the same time? If it is more or less the same amount of work, why not have both versions out there?
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:45 am

avogel57 wrote:So, thinking it over, it seems that Quenya would be the most "appropriate" language, but we haven't got anybody who has already started and is willing to keep going =)

We should invite Gladhaniel to join the discussion, in case she would be tempted :D. Even Vea mi Olori could be interested, but I didn't see him around for a while... I could poke him on FB... But in Sindarin it's already amazing !
avogel57 wrote:Sindarin would be appropriate, and while the Elves in Valinor would have heard the tale straight from the Valar, there's nothing to say that Orome or some other of the Valar or Maia couldn't have told the same tales to the Elves in ME at the same time. On top of that, Sindarin would be considered more common in ME, and there is no reason these stories coudn't have been written down in a past age in say Imladris or Lothlorien or wherever.

I can imagine one of the Elves that went back to ME after living in Aman for a while wanting to share that story, and using Sindarin for that. There was even a time when Quenya was forbidden in Doriath, after the King Thingol learned about the Kinslaying. So even if Sindarin wasn't the first language in which the tale was written (nor English was, according to how Tolkien presents himself as the translator of all of this more that the author), it is more than probably appropriated.
avogel57 wrote:From the aesthetic point of view, I want to use the Tehtar, even if they aren't quite as "correct". Here is a thought, though: if you are plugging the text into the online transcriber, would it only be a matter of a couple of clicks to do both the "correct" way and the tehtar way at the same time? If it is more or less the same amount of work, why not have both versions out there?

I wouldn't say that they are not "correct". It's just that Elves would probably use the other mode for themselves. If you prefer it, we can go for it. If you want the two modes, that is not a big problem neither. I'll have the draft in a fiew clicks, and then I have to correct it, which is the longer part, but I can do that little by little and I don't think it's a problem, as I'll send you a text file. To change it all into a big image or many little would be longer... but I'll end doing it, when I have more time, to share it with the others.


I think I'll write to Dhani... imagine if we could have the whole text in both Sindarin and Quenya... *wipes the saliva pouring from her mouth at this idea*... and maybe she would accept to do an audio file too ?! *wipes again*... but maybe she wont have the time or interest in that too, let's wait for her reaction :D


In the meanwhile, do I start with the part Xand already posted here ?
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Gladhaniel » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:34 am

Well well, dear Isildilmë, I must say I am indeed very tempted by this project! :D You know I'm always enthusiastic when it comes translating, right? ;) I agree with you when you say Quenya would be a very appropriate language for the Ainulindalë, and I'm quite ready to embark on a translation. :) Of course it might take me a while, since I'm such a slow translator and don't have much time on my hands these days, but that's of no incidence when it comes to something as passionating as this. :D

As for Vea, I've done a translation together with him less than a week ago over email, but I think he's still very busy. I could perhaps contact him to see whether he's interested in participating, just in case. :)
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:46 am

I knew it :clap: ! but I also thought that you would be busy... And I'm happy you had news from Vea, but I also thought he would be busy ! I think whatever you (or both of you) do and whenever it's done, it will be fantastic.

If you ever want me to join the discussion and/or analyse the translation with you (you know I have far less experience and I'm far slower than what you can be !), send me your material by email and I'll see what I can do to help, but it will of course be longer.

I'm very excited !


But I didn't have my answer from Avogel yet : do I start with Sindarin ?
Note : I'll do it anyway, but if you need it I'll just try to do it earlier than if you don't. And I'll also do the Quenya version when we have it. So don't feel bad if you are still unsure of what you want to do, just tell me if you are interested :D
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:35 am

Updated the first post - I'm slowly working my way through the second page.

It irks me that it looks like I've done an incredibly tiny amount, but it's really not...
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