Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:28 pm

I go on the basis (that other people came up with and I agree with) that as it's 'i/in' it causes the same mutation that 'i/in' does when it's taking the definite article. Though I've never had cause to use the relative article as 'in'...

Hope you're getting on alright at college and not too snowed under! :)
We can always swap if you like, I'll apply my nonexistent knowledge of Spanish, and you can finish my novel... only about 5,000 words to go, chop chop :wink:
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby avogel57 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:34 pm

Pretty much =) I've got a tentative version, but I'd like to be as sure as possible before committing to artwork; that said, there's always room for corrections, and it's all interpretive anyways! :D
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:51 am

Cillendor wrote:PS—In both examples, I have changed how I wrote "Ilúvatar". Since Quenya can represent long vowels (except a) with either a long carrier or by doubling the tehta, I decided to double the u-tehta instead of using a long carrier. This is to keep with my pattern of writing Quenya words in the Quenyan mode rather than a Sindarin mode.

See, that is one of the point I'd like to discuss... I see the interest of doing this, but in my humble opinion, one of the impacts of this is to make the text "heavier", with all these quotation marks... I think I would prefer to treat the Quenya words of this text as "loanword", in a certain way, and to transcribe them as Sindarin. I'm not trying to convince anybody, but I would of course like to know if there are any thoughts on this.
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Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:25 pm

Isildilmë wrote:
Cillendor wrote:PS—In both examples, I have changed how I wrote "Ilúvatar". Since Quenya can represent long vowels (except a) with either a long carrier or by doubling the tehta, I decided to double the u-tehta instead of using a long carrier. This is to keep with my pattern of writing Quenya words in the Quenyan mode rather than a Sindarin mode.

See, that is one of the point I'd like to discuss... I see the interest of doing this, but in my humble opinion, one of the impacts of this is to make the text "heavier", with all these quotation marks... I think I would prefer to treat the Quenya words of this text as "loanword", in a certain way, and to transcribe them as Sindarin. I'm not trying to convince anybody, but I would of course like to know if there are any thoughts on this.


I see what you mean. I honestly don't know if this is "okay" or not. Unfortunately, Ilúvatar is never so named except in Quenya, so, it is hard to tell whether He would retain His Quenya name in Sindarin or if it would change. Maybe it doesn't matter that much if it has the quotation marks, but I still think perhaps the spelling should remain Quenya unless the name is translated. Could something like Pánadar work instead? It's not attested, of course, but neither is Ilúvatar in Sindarin.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:39 am

Personally, I don't want the word changed, there's no evidence that the Sindar used the word Pánadar or Iladar, I'd rather it was just used as a loanword.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:38 pm

Xandarien wrote:Personally, I don't want the word changed, there's no evidence that the Sindar used the word Pánadar or Iladar, I'd rather it was just used as a loanword.


Okeedoke, I changed the spelling to the Sindarin mode. I haven't done that yet for the Beleriandic version as I'm still working on it, but I think I'll finish the tehta one first since I still have a couple pages left for Beleriand. It takes so long to write it out and uses the shift key liberally, so it makes my little finger tired. :(

EDIT: I finished the tehtar mode, unless I find any more typos while going through the Beleriand mode. Xandarien, please review the final result here because I have included two versions of each paragraph of dialog. The first is written in Tengwar Annatar with the flowing lettering, and the second is in the standard Telcontar font I used for the rest. The reason I have two copies of each is that while the Annatar is much prettier, it doesn't format as nicely, and there are three instances in which there are extra gaps I cannot remove because of the physical design of the font. So please let me know which you like, and I'll make the changes.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:34 am

Not meaning to be awkward, but I think I prefer the annatar font, it just looks, well, prettier. :)
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:09 pm

Oh it's not awkward. It's just that the tengwar are mapped under Dan Smith's system, which interpret's Tolkien's table in the appendix of The Lord of the Rings onto a traditional keyboard. But since the keys on a keyboard aren't arranged like a table, the mapping isn't that obvious, so you have to either search for or just memorize the key placement. That's not so bad for the tengwar themselves, but when it comes to the tehtar, it's problematic. There are four versions of each tehta that each work best with a particular size of tengwa. All of them are mapped to Shift+ keys, so you end up using the Shift button a lot. It gets tiring on your hands after a while. Incidentally, that's the same complaint I have with writing the text in the mode of Beleriand. The Telcontar font is mapped pretty well to a QWERTY keyboard, but it's obviously designed for the tehtar mode of writing Sindarin. The variations in glyphs used in the Beleriandic mode often fall on Shift+ keys, making them more difficult to write and more tiring on the hands.

But since I've already written out all of the text using Annatar, it's no problem to delete the "uglier" text. :P
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:32 am

Someone should invent a Tengwar keyboard peripheral...

Heh, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that ...
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:57 am

I personnaly always (or almost) use Dan Smith's system fonts, and I have come to be very used with it... I know by heart most of the Tengwar (the most often used), and to me the Tehtar are easy to get, because they are placed with a pattern (almost all of them, because I don't have a typical English keyboard) : for "a", cap+[3edc], for "e", cap+[4rfv], for "i", cap+[5tgb], etc. The only problem is that depending on the font, you may have to change the tehtar position (for example, with Tengwar Annatar, the most on the left tehtar fits well on the "L", while the second one fits better if you use Tengwar Sindarin or Quenya). But still, when you are used with something, you feel it's easier. So it's the contrary for me : I have a hard time dealing with others, because I have to use the table almost 100% of time... and because I can't use a "normal" program, so I can't work on it from anywhere.

So my vote is always on the side of T.Annatar or any other Dan Smith font...

Do I understand that this link is your "final" tehtar mode text ? because I think I'll wait until you stop the modifications to really get into it... with my pregnacy and everything [mmm, I didn't officially wrote about it anywhere, I should do that now !], I prefer not to start all over again to often !
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:39 pm

Whoa Isildilmë, I had no idea you were a woman. Not that there was any indication on here, but I guess the name struck me as a guy's name (it sounds like Isildur, after all). Well congratulations on your pregnancy! I hope you and the baby are doing well and are healthy.

It's the final version unless one of us finds typos. If I do, I'll post them on here. There's no way to convert the font (sorry, that's just the font I like using the most :/), so hopefully that won't be too much of a problem.

Xandarien wrote:Someone should invent a Tengwar keyboard peripheral...


Actually, that is what I like about Telcontar. Instead of just overlaying Tolkien's table onto a standard keyboard, the Telcontar font has a separate keyboard mode (accessible via the language bar on the Start menu) that places the tengwar more or less on their Latin counterparts. Ultimately though it doesn't matter, it's all about user preference. But I do think that as font technology improves, newer tengwar fonts (if any are created) will go the way of Telcontar because Johan Winge and the others in the unicode group are doing the most work on it today.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:54 am

ok, so I'll print that last pdf and check again the pages I was done with to see if the typos are still there, and continue. If I don't have time to correct on the document, I may just draw on the pdf and repost it so that you do the modifications (as this damn program cannot follow me !).

I understood what Xand wrote as it would be nice to have a REAL tengwar keyboard, you know, with the tengwar on the keys, not our roman letters, so that we can just pic the tengwa/tehta we need and there is no encoding necessary. It would be really nice indeed ! For now, to do that, we could take a keyboard, and stick the tengwar on it. Do-able :)

There is no problem, many people think I'm a guy... I tried to opt for the feminine ending name equivalent to -dil (I read that it can be -dil too, or -dilmë). When I told it to another from TORC, I just said that like him and his wife, we were going to have a baby. So he gave me advices of what to do and not to do with my pregnant wife so that the hormonal problems are not getting too dangerous. It was funny to tell him then that I was the pregnant wife.

And we are both super fine, thank you ;)
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:57 pm

Isildilmë wrote:ok, so I'll print that last pdf and check again the pages I was done with to see if the typos are still there, and continue. If I don't have time to correct on the document, I may just draw on the pdf and repost it so that you do the modifications (as this damn program cannot follow me !).


Okay, great! :)

Isildilmë wrote:I understood what Xand wrote as it would be nice to have a REAL tengwar keyboard, you know, with the tengwar on the keys, not our roman letters, so that we can just pic the tengwa/tehta we need and there is no encoding necessary. It would be really nice indeed ! For now, to do that, we could take a keyboard, and stick the tengwar on it. Do-able :)


Yeah, I have a keyboard 2/3 of the way finished that I'd been working on over Christmas break, but I forgot it when I went back to school and haven't had a chance to get it since then.

Isildilmë wrote:There is no problem, many people think I'm a guy... I tried to opt for the feminine ending name equivalent to -dil (I read that it can be -dil too, or -dilmë). When I told it to another from TORC, I just said that like him and his wife, we were going to have a baby. So he gave me advices of what to do and not to do with my pregnant wife so that the hormonal problems are not getting too dangerous. It was funny to tell him then that I was the pregnant wife.


Bahaha that's funny! Well personally, I'm very slowly learning Quenya, but I don't know naming conventions yet to know what makes a male or female name. My bad. :P

Isildilmë wrote:And we are both super fine, thank you ;)


I'm glad to hear! Is this your first?
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:31 am

Yeah, our first indeed :) And long desired, must I add. If you want to have an idea of the story (still a résumé but a long one), I suggest you go on the TVM thread (Talk forum), I posted my story this weekend there.
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:54 pm

Hey Xandarien, I hit a roadblock on the Beleriand transcription. I downloaded and installed the newest OpenOffice.org upgrade, and now the file won't open. I know it's not the software, because all the other ODF files I have still open just fine, but the Beleriand one won't for some reason. I don't really have time to redo everything, as slow-going as it already was, and you said you like the tehtar version better anyway. So unless you specifically request it, I'm going to lay the Beleriandic transcription to rest. If Isildilmë or someone else wants to take it up, that'd be awesome, but I'll have to start from scratch in order to do it now. Ugh… computers.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:11 am

That's a shame :( but okey dokey that's fair enough, definitely don't start over on it, you have enough work to do with other things I'm sure :)

Heh well, I worked in IT, always keep backups. Multiple backups...
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Almatolmen » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:33 am

Oh, big Congratulations, Isildilme! This the first that I heard of your pregnancy! When are you due? I hate that it's so long between my visits.

And a nod to your TDH for his important but fleeting contribution! :wink:

Speaking of babies, does anyone have any suggestion for a Quenya/Sindarin name for George Alexander Louis Cambridge? I'm rather disappointed with those selections. Too traditional and stodgy. Maybe we could choose something, have Isildilme transcribe it and send it as a christening gift.

I was just looking through GALC's ancestry to find names to reflect his four grandparent's ancestry. I came up with John Francis Gavin Edward.

I was curious as to who was the Anglican saint for July 22. It's Mary Magdalene. That's an idea to stretch tradition: Add Magdalene to the string. Many Catholics have Mary name as part of the masculine name. so using part of a female saint name might be considered ecumenical outreach.

So John Magdalen Francis Gavin Edward.

If they decide to use William's most senior secondary title as the baby's courtesy title he would be Earl Strathearn, a Scots title.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:31 am

He'll be the Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall at some point (far in the future). I actually quite like the names, George is a very common first name here at the moment, it's made a comeback. I was more surprised they didn't give him a fourth name of either Charles, Phillip or William, they gave him one of William's middle names instead.

Yeah the media were talking about saints, as the Duke and Duchess are quite big on Saints' Days (they got married on St. Catherine's), but as it was a boy, the day he was born didn't really match with Mary! :D Plus remember they're not catholic :wink:

Yeah, Strathearn... that's a bit of a sore point in Scotland, we're split between those who don't really care, or are royalist (like me), and those who don't agree with a member of the monarchy being given a Scottish title.

In answer to the actual original question about Sindarin names for our new wee prince, I'll go and have a look what his names mean!
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:29 am

Thanks Alma ! But I'm pretty sure I sent you an email about it... didn't I ??? Or maybe you have many unread emails waiting for you ;). I'm due on November 21st (± 2 weeks, as usual).

I have to say that I have not followed the little Prince's story, and wasn't even aware of the names by now :) but I'm in any of your ideas, Alma, as usual !

This week as been terrible for me on the side of energy levels (to know more, read my post of today in this thread), and I'm very sorry not to be more present and fast to double check Cillendor's transcription, nor to do the Beleriand version (for I have the intention to do it). I'll end doing it all, but I still cannot tell when.
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:21 pm

Xandarien wrote:That's a shame :( but okey dokey that's fair enough, definitely don't start over on it, you have enough work to do with other things I'm sure :)

Heh well, I worked in IT, always keep backups. Multiple backups...


lol true. I used to have one copy on my hard drive and on on my Dropbox account, but since I always used the Dropbox file so I could share it on here easier, I finally just deleted the out-of-date version on my hard drive. Oh well. :-/
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:44 pm

I know this topic is like a year dead, but after some time away from it (I finished school and have a full-time job), I have finished transcribing the Ainulindalë into the Beleriandic mode. In the process, I corrected a number of typos that I found in the original transcription. I don't know if anyone cares or not, but in case you do, I thought I should share it.

I 'Ling-i-Rodyn

Additionally, the awesome guy at Quenya101.com translated the Ainulindalë into Quenya. While his translation is superb, I find the scroll texts that he transcribed it on to be a little difficult to read. So I typed it out in the same format as the Beleriandic version above. All credit goes to Quenya101 for the translation.

I Ainulindalë
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:30 am

Thank you for posting this here, it really does look beautiful :D .
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