Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Almatolmen » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:24 am

Think of this way, Isildilme, Cillendor did all the heavy lifting and you get the fun of sitting back and doing a critique 8) .

You can tell Cellendor about all the silly mistakes she/henmade and look down your nose in a vastly superior way, while if you'd finished it first, he/she would've had that pleasure.

So relax and enjoy the opportunity to gloat! :D
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:24 am

Haha that would be if there were any mistakes! lol just kidding, I'm sure there are some. Not to mention needing to remove halla (now it's my turn to sob quietly in a corner). Also Isildilmë, I thought I'd posted a link to the file, but it's not here. I'll repost it when I am done with classes today.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:03 pm

Isildilmë wrote:I'll have to think about all this cleaning my mind from the rest ;)

For halla, I know what you mean, and I think partly the same, but at the same time, I guess that even if there was no indication of the elision, an Elf would know... see what I mean. We may compare that with two English words sounding exactly the same (in French we call them "homophones", I don't know if that word is good in English too)... if we write them in Tengwar using a phonetical mode, which Tolkien might have done at some points of his life, how can we know what we are talking about ? Well, we just know, if we understand English, and with the context.

I'll find a discussion I had about apostrophes in Tehtar modes with somebody and I'll try to get you back with that.

I think it might be usefull to have your original document. I think I have T.Telcontar downloaded, if not that shouldn't be a problem. No I don't use it for my transcriptions here, because I use Dan smith's layout fonts... I'm used to them, and at least it's easy to switch from one to the other without having to start over.

We might discuss punctuations at some point, but the more I know about Tolkien, the more I realise that punctuations didn't seem to be a great deal for him... he didn't seem to care about them a lot. In many texts, he just didn't use any, and in early times he used regular roman punctuations mixed with Tengwar... so I guess he wouldn't be very agressive on that point... and I'll think of the quotations... maybe if we had them just in italic, not necessarely in another font ? I don't know, I have to look first, and to think, and then I may have suggestions... but of course no truth !


I know what you mean about homophones (that is their name in English, too ^_^). I just don't want to give up that convenience, lol. I'd like to see your discussion, though. It intrigues me.

Quite true about switching fonts. The only design I really like though among the Dan Smith series is Annatar, and I've been noticing some spacing issues with it. I don't like how a few of the tengwar and tehtar fit together. Telcontar was created by the guy who made Annatar, but he uses a completely different type of font software that allows the letters to change shape so they fit together seamlessly. There is also more customization, such as connecting bars across closed lúvar and using calligraphic lettering (which I almost did for the title, except that he oddly doesn't have a calligraphic version of rómen).

The one downside to Telcontar is that the italic version doesn't look very pleasing. It could be done, I suppose. There are Roman quotation marks that I could use, but I hesitated because I didn't want to mix them. Anyway, at the end of this document, I'll include a list of all of the punctuation I used so you can see what they mean within this document. I tried to have a specific meaning for each one.

So here is the document.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:06 am

Didn't you way you could send me the working file too, so that I can write on it if I have something to propose ?

:angel:
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:34 pm

That is a working document. I think the only way you can make changes and show me is if you upload a new copy, but that there is the most recent copy I have. It should let you edit it.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:47 am

Yeah, I'm the stupid one, sorry ! I realised it after I wrote that message, but I didn't have the time to come back and edit. When I opened it, it showed like a pdf file, but when I saved it it was something else... strange thing. But I had to copy it in Word for it was just squares... and in Word I have these circles under the tehtar for that font... is there a software I have to use with T. Telcontar ?
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:57 pm

Isildilmë wrote:Yeah, I'm the stupid one, sorry ! I realised it after I wrote that message, but I didn't have the time to come back and edit. When I opened it, it showed like a pdf file, but when I saved it it was something else... strange thing. But I had to copy it in Word for it was just squares... and in Word I have these circles under the tehtar for that font... is there a software I have to use with T. Telcontar ?


YES ^_^ You have to use Apache OpenOffice.org software. Microsoft Word doesn't have the right technology. Here is a website explaining it: http://freetengwar.sourceforge.net/tengtelc.html. It was annoying at first, but now I like it a lot more.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:55 am

I just realised something... I can now open it with OpenOffice at home, but I cannot print it (a problem with my printer), while at work I can print, but not instal OO. So I would need a pdf just for the reading part of "my job", and then I may use the OO version for my comments or suggestions... On page 3 you posted a PDF... is it the same version as your last OO document ?

I'm sorry for the delay... I have to read a ton of things by now, and my time and energy is missing... but it's in my list, and if I could I would do it before everything else... but some things cannot wait :)
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:52 pm

Aye, it is. Dropbox is cool in that when you update a document and save it, it updates the online copy too. So as long as you don't change the file name, the URL will connect to the updated version.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby avogel57 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:48 pm

I'm excited to see this! Unfortunately, I'm having issues accessing dropbox; I'll try again from my work computer tomorrow :p
How does it look? What kind of font are we talking about here? Isildime, you'll understand where I'm coming from, from an artistic point of view =)

I'm excited to have the opportunity to dig in and try my hand at calligraphy!

(y'all can email me, if you like; [username] at hotmail.com)

EDIT: Can anybody send me a copy of this in a .PDF or .JPEG or .BMP format? I would love to see what it looks like, but I only get boxes when I download the document. Or, does anyone have a suggestion for remedying this? Thanks! :D
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:04 am

Sure Avogel, in the preceeding page of the thread, there is a link to a pdf version. Instead of letting you search for it, I'll just send it to you. I didn't have time to check it all by now, but it gives you a good idea !

Sadly, that font is not compatible with the other fonts I normally use, so if you want to change the font, it will be necessary to start all over. But that is not a problem, as long as we are patient, because my free time has be drastically reduced recently.

Now that I know that the pdf is the good version, I'll be able to print it and to check it... slowly :)
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby avogel57 » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:20 pm

Thanks =) I've just downloaded it onto something bigger than my phone, so I can take a look at it in depth.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:24 am

I'm doing some minor corrections myself, such as removing halla and changing /au/ diphthongs from using vala to úre. I'll update the PDF when it's finished.

And sorry, Avogel, about the font. I picked it because I think it's most aesthetically pleasing, and it's much easier for searching through and changing things later via "CTRL+F & replace", but it is a bit cumbersome to install initially.

Isildilmë, it hurts to get rid of all the halla. When I come to a word like gaw, lenited 'aw, I think, "How can anyone know what this means when it is just vala and the a-tehta[/b]?" I know, I know, context is key, but for the non-native like me, it is so confusing. I keep praying that someone will uncover an attested example of Tolkien using [i]halla in the tehtar mode, but once they're all gone, re-adding them will be a major headache.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Sat May 04, 2013 9:36 am

yeah, I know... and believe me, I would love to have an example and to be the one who tells you "OK ! Now we are sure we can use it !"
I just found a part of a discussion I had with a Tolkien scholar about that, and he told me (my translation) : "In the "Mode of Gondor", it is wilya that Tolkien transcribes in latin with an apostrophe."... so that would be another possibility, what do you think of that ?
Or, we could decide to keep halla... knowing that it might not be 100% accurate, but that it's not prooven to be wrong. I'm pretty sure an Elf would understand... but if we want to guess what an Elf would do, mmm, problem. Anyway, an Elf would more than probably use the Mode of Beleriand, so the question wouldn't exist ! We might be authorized to think by ourselves when dealing with a Men's mode, being Men ourselves !
So there is wilya, halla, or nothing, as seen often. My guess is that "nothing" is the best option, but that wilya would be also accepted and attested (according to my contact, I want to check that myself too, but I tend to believe him !), while using halla would be fair and understood by anybody who knows something about Tengwar, but possibly incorrect.

Your opinion ?

And btw, I printed the other version of the PDF (the first one), and I started to check it (I'm not very far yet, I had complete books to read in the meanwhile). I'm happy you talk about úre, because that was a point I wanted to discuss (I use úre in "au"). I have many other points I marked on my printed version of the PDF, I'll have to check them and to insert them in the file for further discussion. And I'll have to read all of your posts in this very thread, because some of my questions might find their answer there. So it's not for tomorrow, but it's going on slowly !
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Tue May 14, 2013 10:54 pm

I think I'll defer to your judgment on the apostrophe. I know a mere mortal like myself would love for there to be some marker, but I would rather be canonical than convenient. You've been at this longer than I, so it's your call. It shouldn't be all that hard to put the characters back in.

I'm pretty sure Xandarien didn't write this specifically in Beleriandic Sindarin (based on the 3rd Age spelling of "arnediad"). I went with the tehtar mode because I'm more familiar with it and it was written in pretty "modern" Sindarin. If the Noldor brought this story with them in the exile, would they have used the Mode of Beleriand for writing? I honestly don't know. I guess they did use it on the door to Moria (wasn't that Galadriel and Celeborn's people who made that door before they moved to Lothlórien? I can't recall for sure).
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Wed May 15, 2013 4:29 am

Doors of Durin were made by Celebrimbor (well, he wrote the signs - Im Narvi hain echant, Celebrimbor o Eregion teithant i thiw hin) - he lived in Eregion in the Second Age at Ost-in-Edhil.

It was actually intended to be a sort of more archaic Sindarin - I don't use ah in my normal writing, but that's probably the only nod to it.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Isildilmë » Thu May 16, 2013 9:14 am

Cillendor wrote:I think I'll defer to your judgment on the apostrophe. I know a mere mortal like myself would love for there to be some marker, but I would rather be canonical than convenient. You've been at this longer than I, so it's your call. It shouldn't be all that hard to put the characters back in.

ehhh, really ?
I mean... I don't think my judgment is better than any other's in such matters... and even if I'd done this for decades (and that is still not the case !), I don't think it would bring me more"right to decide" ! I'm a mere mortal too ! But thank you for giving me this importance I don't think I deserve ;) I have still many things to read, and to understand, and I may find out some things after years doing them a different way.

In any case, no, I don't think that changing our mind and put characters back in would be complicated, as we have the location of the apostrophes in the original roman text.

For the other question, my impression is that Elves (Noldor or others using Sindarin) would use the mode of Beleriand, except if they specifically wanted to write it FOR others that would not understand that mode. But Men would write it with the Tehtar mode, probably... And if this is meant to be archaic Sindarin, the Mode of Beleriand would probably "fit" more, in an historical vision... but again, that is my interpretation... if you see an Elf passing by, don't forget to ask him/her, and give him/her my email, I'd have a few questions like this to clarify... a few hundreds... not more, I promise !
Concerning the Official Tengwar Transcription Thread - VI
To all the newbees, Welcome to TORC !
Before posting anything on this thread, READ THE INTRODUCTION. For now, I didn't have the time to update the intro, so I let you read the intro of thread #IV here.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask in the threads or by email (isildilme@hotmail.com - write "Tengwar" somewhere in the subject in case you fall in my junkmail, because if I don't know, I wont open the message !). Note that I don't accept transcription requests by email, you have to post them here !

You can address yourself to me in French, Spanish or English as you wish.


Special message : I have now two precious sons. They are my priorities, and an additional explanation for the delays in my answers. I WILL answer you... but you might have to wait. Thank you for your comprehension.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Sat May 18, 2013 9:19 pm

True, true. Well I'll get busy on those unchanges when I get a chance. I will very happily share with you i mellon edhellen n­ín if I meet one.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:30 pm

I'm making some corrections now, and I'm really glad I'm adding the hallas back in. I noticed a few other mistakes in the process, so it's good to review it like this.

ALSO, I have decided to undertake the massive task of transcribing it into the mode of Beleriand. This is partly done because of your suggestion, partly done because I need more practice in that mode, and partly done because it has just in the first paragraph helped me to catch a typo from before.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:53 am

Still waiting eagerly to see the finished product! :)

(On with the next project now... =:) )
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:08 am

Sorry for such a long break! I needed some time to rest my eyes from it to see it clearly, and then life got busy. But hopefully I'll be able to finish the 2nd draft and the Beleriand version by the end of the week.

What is your next project? My other one at CoE is pedaling slowly along.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:08 am

Don Giovanni.

No, really.

(There is even method to my madness - the novel I am writing is set in 1840, and Don Giovanni is from 1797, so they would have been aware of it, and may have seen it). Not that the characters in my universe speak Sindarin of course, but there we are!
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:27 am

o.O you're crazy.

Well as always, if you want transcribers then I'm sure Isildilmë or I would be glad to assist. But perhaps not in this thread. :P
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:58 pm

Isildilmë wrote:
Cillendor wrote:I think I'll defer to your judgment on the apostrophe. I know a mere mortal like myself would love for there to be some marker, but I would rather be canonical than convenient. You've been at this longer than I, so it's your call. It shouldn't be all that hard to put the characters back in.

For the other question, my impression is that Elves (Noldor or others using Sindarin) would use the mode of Beleriand, except if they specifically wanted to write it FOR others that would not understand that mode. But Men would write it with the Tehtar mode, probably... And if this is meant to be archaic Sindarin, the Mode of Beleriand would probably "fit" more, in an historical vision... but again, that is my interpretation... if you see an Elf passing by, don't forget to ask him/her, and give him/her my email, I'd have a few questions like this to clarify... a few hundreds... not more, I promise !


Okay, so I'm doing two main things now. On the original, I'm working on writing out all the dialog in Tengwar Annatar Italic to mirror what Quenya101 did. I'll show the new paragraphs next to the old so others can choose which looks better. Personally, though Annatar is a much prettier design, it's also very rugged as the letters don't connect properly as they do in Telcontar. I've been emailing Johan Winge, the creator of both fonts, and he said he's going to try this summer to update Telcontar to have a better italic, with the long-term goal of recreating the Annatar Italic font using Graphite technology. Until then, I'm just experimenting. Tell me what you think. EDIT: I did the first and last blocks of dialog. The first looks okay, but the last has an extra space above it that I can't remove. I can explain why it's there, but the short answer is there's no way to remove it. There are other portions of dialog where it is embedded into the previous paragraph, so it'll have the same problem there, too. I'm thinking based on that that I won't like using Annatar and will change it back.

Also, I'm working on transcribing it into the mode of Beleriand. I'm about a page in so far. My roommate, who knows nothing about Sindarin, says he likes the tehtar mode better. I agree. :P But anyway, when I'm finished with it then I'll probably go back through and add in dots on the i's and a's where necessary. I'm not worry about it now because I don't want to overdo it, but I also don't want to be bogged down with it now when there is more to be done. Anyway, you can find them here:

Tehtar Mode
Mode of Beleriand

PS—In both examples, I have changed how I wrote "Ilúvatar". Since Quenya can represent long vowels (except a) with either a long carrier or by doubling the tehta, I decided to double the u-tehta instead of using a long carrier. This is to keep with my pattern of writing Quenya words in the Quenyan mode rather than a Sindarin mode.
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:44 am

Woo they look brilliant :D

I personally prefer tehtar over the mode of Beleriand too, but that's just me!
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Almatolmen » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:30 am

Just to be contrary, I'm stating a preference for Beleriand! :)
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby avogel57 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:02 pm

Xandarien wrote:Don Giovanni.

No, really.

(There is even method to my madness - the novel I am writing is set in 1840, and Don Giovanni is from 1797, so they would have been aware of it, and may have seen it). Not that the characters in my universe speak Sindarin of course, but there we are!


I really like the sampling/remix of the main theme from Don Giovanni that they used in Sherlock Holmes Game of Shadows.
Random aside :)
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby avogel57 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:06 pm

Hey all, still kinda lurking in the shadows until there's a consensus on a "finished" version, of sorts :)

In so far as random extra spaces and stylistic points go, I was planning on writing this out longhand, versus using any particular font or program. For now, this is sorta backburnered, as I've got a show coming up, and a rather full plate, but nothing says I can't work on several projects at once! :D
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Xandarien » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:04 am

Noticed a couple of tiny errors incidentally (as you mentioned final version I decided to take one last check over it)

Eru ennas, i erui, i vi (page 1, first line) - managed to miss mi -> vi
a thiant anden i Ilúvatar ú-havant (page 2) - verb change. Saf- should take savant/havant in the 3rd person past tense, and Haf- should take hamp.

Other than that, I'm happy with the actual text, so I think you're just waiting on confirmation of Tengwar?
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Re: Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

Postby Cillendor » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:06 pm

Xandarien wrote:Noticed a couple of tiny errors incidentally (as you mentioned final version I decided to take one last check over it)

Eru ennas, i erui, i vi (page 1, first line) - managed to miss mi -> vi
a thiant anden i Ilúvatar ú-havant (page 2) - verb change. Saf- should take savant/havant in the 3rd person past tense, and Haf- should take hamp.

Other than that, I'm happy with the actual text, so I think you're just waiting on confirmation of Tengwar?


Would mi > vi there? I know mi is speculative as it is, but i is "who/that". I didn't think that usage of it caused lenition. Anyway, I've updated the PDFs again with the revisions. I haven't had time to do any more work than what I had the last time, but hopefully will soon.

avogel57 wrote:Hey all, still kinda lurking in the shadows until there's a consensus on a "finished" version, of sorts :)

In so far as random extra spaces and stylistic points go, I was planning on writing this out longhand, versus using any particular font or program. For now, this is sorta backburnered, as I've got a show coming up, and a rather full plate, but nothing says I can't work on several projects at once! :D


Oh I forgot you said you'd do this! If you use the typed versions as a reference, note that I am using ≈ to indicate a word break at the end of a line, simi-
lar to a hyphen in English writings. If when writing it out, the lines break at different spots, make sure to remove the ≈ mark and combine the two words on either side into a full word.

Here is an example, but I can't embed it because it's too large.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/104643993/line%20break%20example.png
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