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Postby Didi » Fri Jul 26, 2002 3:38 am

realy no one any idea about how the tengwar thorn and edh are written?
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Postby Didi » Fri Jul 26, 2002 3:52 am

okey you see i cannot stop asking questions, even if no one answers them (nienna is making a trip, and except her i dont know a lot of peole who mostly help people here)<BR><BR>in the etymologies sometimes occur the number 3. i was thinking how weird that is, eg <i>3ô (A) 3O; 3o WÔ</i> how do i have to read that?<BR>(in alfabtical order the 3 is between g and h)
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Postby Fingolfin_of_the_Noldor » Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:26 am

If I am not mistaken, and I don't believe I am, '3' represents the 'backward spirant' or spirant G sound: 'gh.'
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Postby Darkmagus » Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:14 pm

Yes, that is correct Fingolfin.
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Postby Didi » Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:27 pm

indeed. some hours after posting that, i found it on ardalambion at the primitive elvish part (but i was too lazy to cancel that message <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>)<BR><BR>wasnt the meaning of the tengwa "anna" originaly that sound 3/gh (before evoluting to a Y-carrier (at least, in quenya)) ? i can remember me i once read that.(i think it was at the forodrim site, i am not very sure)
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:44 pm

I'm back!!! Sorry, people, I was on vacation. Happens in the summer. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> I don't have time to answer all of your questions, Didi, (sorry), but I will answer one that I don't have look up anything for:<BR><BR>The letters "thorn" (Þ ) and "edh" (ð ) are <b>NOT</b> tengwa. They are letters that originally existed in the variant of the Roman alphabet used for writing 'English' (actually, it was essentialy Anglo-Saxon back then, but that's a different issue). They were both what we would now call "th" sounds -- thorn was used to write the 'soft' "th", heard in words such as 'thought', while edh was used to write the 'hard' "th" (more acurately a "dh" ), heard in words such as 'thus'. The letters eventually fell out of use when the Norman French invaded England. Norman scribes were not familiar with either "th" sound, neither one existing in French, so they did not use the sound-specific letters. Later, as the nobility began to speak English, they required a way to write those two sounds. Instead of re-discovering the sound-specific letters thorn and edh, they borrowed from the Welsh and used the orthograph "th" to represent both sounds (actually, Welsh maintains the distinction between "th" and "dh", using the orthgraphs "th" and "dd", respectively). The corrosponding tengwa are <i>thule</i> (Series I, row 3) for thorn and <i>anto</i> (Series I, row 4) for edh.<BR><BR>Hope that helps; I plan to answer the rest of your questions as soon as I have time. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>--Nienna
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Postby Didi » Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:23 pm

thx nienna and nice you re bach <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><BR>and i realy taught they were meaning 2 tengwar instead of roman symbols. that 2 i knew it were th and dh, but i didnt know their name so i was confused <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby nami_chan » Fri Aug 09, 2002 9:53 pm

This seemed in need of a bumping<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Welcome back Nienna!<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Didi » Sat Aug 10, 2002 5:03 am

hey nienna pls go to there: <a target=new href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=8&threadid=53031">http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=8&threadid=53031</a><BR>and tell that boy grey company is bad bad bad elvish<BR>they dont believe me there...<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0>
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Postby jallan » Sun Aug 11, 2002 4:54 pm

The character that Didi mentioned, that looks like a flat-topped number 3 in some of Tolkien's forms when he is writing linguistically or about etymology, is called <i>Yogh</i>, and is a letter of the Middle English alphabet used for soft pronunciation of <i>g</i>, when <i>g</i> had the sound of English <i>y</i> in <i>your</i> or <i>g</i> in <i>gem</i> or <i>gh</i> like the <i>g</i> in German <i>Tage</i>.<BR><BR>The sound in <i>Tage</i> is more or less the one imagined by Tolkien.<BR><BR>What is confusing is that this symbol under the name Ezh is also used normally in phonetics for the sound of <i>g</i> in <i>rouge</i> and <i>beige</i>, the sound of <i>z</i> in <i>vision</i>, <i>pleasure</i> in most English dialects, the sound of <i>j</i> in <i>Jacques</i>.<BR><BR>At least I had assumed it to be in origin a typographical version of Yogh and so had many others from seeing it so often used with the meaning Yogh.<BR><BR>But an interesting article at <a target=new href="http://www.evertype.com/standards/wynnyogh/ezhyogh.html">Yogh and Ezh</a> indicates that though this phonetic Ezh symbol is often used for Yogh in modern typography, and the number 3 often used for either when neither symbol is available, the two symbols are separate in origin and meaning and should not have been confused.<BR><BR>Therefore new versions of the Unicode computer character set have encoded upper and lower case Yogh as new characters distinct from upper and lower case Ezh. (Most fonts contain neither and will probably continue to contain neither.)<BR><BR>In the HoME series and many other books of the last 50 years, outside of scholarly editions of Middle English texts, the Ezh letter form was used in place of the Yogh letter. Whether Tolkien in his handwritten manuscripts was using the rounded Yogh form or the flat-topped Ezh form I do not know.
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Sun Aug 11, 2002 5:07 pm

Thank you, jallan. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> (BTW, am I right in assuming your name is pronounced yallan, rather than jallan or (ezh)allan? The letter 'j' can have several sounds.)
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Postby Didi » Mon Aug 12, 2002 2:59 am

the g spirant i know i think, since in dutch all g s are pronounced as that, we dont have just a phonetic [g]<BR><BR>and it seems last days a lot of newbies post their elvish/translation questions in the forum instead of the 2 right thread; earlier they didnt how does it come ?
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Postby jallan » Mon Aug 12, 2002 8:01 am

To NiennaSorrowing:<BR><BR>Actually, as much as my name has any pronounciation, it would be Jay-Allan. But anything else is perfect acceptable.<BR><BR>To Didi:<BR><BR>The spirant or fricative <i>g</i> indicated by Yogh is not quite the spirant <i>g</i> of Dutch, at least not of Netherlandish Dutch -- possibly Flemish is different?<BR><BR>It is the sound of German <i>Tage</i>, which is a voiced version of the <i>ch</i> in German <i>doch</i>, <i>Bach</i>, or Scottish <i>loch</i>. It is related to hard <i>g</i> in the same way that German and Scottish <i>ch</i> is related to <i>k</i>. It can also be described as related to German and Scottish <i>ch</i> in the same way that <i>v</i> is related to <i>f</i>, English and French <i>z</i> is related to initial <i>s</i>, hard <i>g</i> is related to <i>k</i>.
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Postby Didi » Mon Aug 12, 2002 8:13 am

the way i pronounce my g is , in your way of explaining, the soft/voiced ch and i think its indeed different in flemish/hollandic pronounciation. not that i am an expert in phonetics, but i know what voiced stuff etc is, i can find my way through it; since i m a tolkienlanguage freakie i know a lot more about it then before... and i m realy interested in it
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Postby lov*Frodo*Olorin* » Wed Aug 14, 2002 5:24 pm

Where cani learn more Elvish??<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby akathesia » Wed Aug 14, 2002 5:40 pm

Hi,<BR><BR>This is my very first post at TORC.<BR>I'm currently trying (and failing miserablly) to get an understanding of Quenya. So I'm currently writing using the roman alphabet. Is there a course or useful website that explains the written language? Like the writing on the ring in Jackson's FOTR? I'm assuming it was also a Tolkien creation.
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Wed Aug 14, 2002 10:39 pm

Look in Appendix E, akathesia.<BR><BR>Did you read the whole FAQ? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Didi » Fri Aug 16, 2002 6:33 am

i know its not used many times, but i mostly use the accusative case in my quenya translations, and about that i had a question:<BR><BR>one of the rules is: lengthening the ending vowel<BR><BR>but what in cases as lotë with stem loti-? is it loté then or lotí? (now i use the é form, but i m not very sure about that so i m asking now <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>)
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Fri Aug 16, 2002 6:06 pm

<i>lotí</i>. But the accusative case is very obsolete, Didi. I'm not quite sure why you use it. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Balance_Keeper » Fri Aug 16, 2002 9:51 pm

In fact accusative was droped and nominative should be used instead.
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Postby Didi » Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:32 am

It was dropped by the EXILED Ñoldor, but i taught the ones in Aman still kept it? And btw i mostly write not the most modern Quenya, i use often still ázë instead of árë, th instead of s where was in earlier times, and w in eg. wendë/wilya/..., not vendë/vilya/...
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Postby Didi » Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:43 am

uh now i m a bit confused somewhere else i found lóte flower plural lóti which would give stem lót- (not lóti- as i taught) and lótí as an accusative plural not singular. should i then take lóté as singular?
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Postby Tari_Lightfeather » Sat Aug 17, 2002 3:55 pm

*bump*
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:12 pm

You're writing Vanyarin Quenya, not Noldorin Quenya. I see. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I still think the correct accusative singular of <i>lote (loti-)</i> would be <i>lotii</i> (ignore the lack of accents), but I haven't studied the accusative very hard, so that is simply an educated guess. If you feel it is more likely to be <i>lotee</i>, than by all means use it. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Eluchil » Sat Aug 17, 2002 7:36 pm

Or Feanorean. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I suspect that the accusative of <i>lote</i> is <i>lotii</i>, but I would refer you to a mailing list like <a target=new href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/">elfing</a> where you are most likely to find an expert opinion. After a search of the list archives I found this post <a target=new href="http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/elfling-mirror/021nn/02178">http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/elfling-mirror/021nn/02178</a> by David Salo which suggests that -ii is correct.
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Postby Didi » Sun Aug 18, 2002 1:25 am

un vanyarin quenya does that exist too? i taught it was just called vanyarin, and that quenya was the same as ñoldorin...<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif"border=0> but if the stem of lótë is lóti- (as i firts taught), plural should be lótir, not lóti as i found at many places. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif"border=0>? and i taught that dropping of accusative stuff was not done by ñoldor who lived in aman only those from ME...<BR><BR><BR>edit: of course i was looking for the name "book quenya" for what i taught i was using <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR>and it acc sg = lótí, it would be same as pl lótí, so thats why i think lóté is better... and there is said lengthening the ending vowel, not said lengthen stemvowel... so i lengthen last vowel e of lóte becoming lóté...
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Postby Eluchil » Sun Aug 18, 2002 10:05 pm

Vanyarin and Noldorin are usually considered dialects of Quenya. Indeed, some scholars, mostly Noldor, held that Telerin should also be considered such a dialect. Book Quenya, as you have described your usage, corresponds to the written language as used in Middle-earth and the spoken form used in Aman until shortly before the exile (Feanor did not adopt some of these changes for his own use). Most (though not all) of the differences between Vanyarin and Noldorin are either not reflected in writing (as the different pronounciations of 'f') or only effect vocabulary such as the Vanyarin use of <i>ezel</i> "green" from Valian. Most of our attested vocabulary is Noldrin so your writing will reflect that in any case. <BR><BR>I am quite fond of Book Quenya and the accusative case generally and would encourage you to continue using it. A preference for Third Age LotR-style Quenya is little more than a fashion and if another form of the language is more to your taste, by all means use it, as long as you are consistent and do not simpley choose your favorite pieces willy-nilly.<BR><BR>I don't know of any authority that states that the accusative is formed by lengthening the final vowel, other than Ardalambion. Remember, just because Helge Fauskanger says something that doesn't make it true. I would again, reccomend that you take this question to <a target=new href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling">elfing</a>, <a target=new href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor">lambengolmor</a>, or <a target=new href="http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/">Tolklang</a>, where it will recieve a better discussion.<BR><BR>I will breifly discuss my own thoughts. The Common Eldarin forms must have been something like:<BR><BR> Nom. Acc.<BR>Sing. <i>loti</i> <i>loti-i > lotii</i><BR>Pl. <i>lotii</i> <i>lotii-i > lotii</i><BR><BR>The nomnative and accusative coincide in the plural, just as they do for <i>lasse</i> in the Plotz declension. Final short 'i' eventually became 'e' in Quenya but long 'i' ('ii') remained until it became 'i' when all final vowels were shortened (after the Book Quenya stage). The accusative of <i>lote</i> would thus be <i>lotii</i> unless analogical leveling prevailed, that is unless the rule "lengthen final vowel" became more powerful than the actual history of the word in the minds of speakers. This is an explanation rarely appealed to by Tolkien in the case of Elvish, and I see no need for it here. The homophony does not seem to be a sufficent problem, in my eyes. Some such matches are inevitable and context usually can sort things out.
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Postby Didi » Mon Aug 19, 2002 12:26 am

yeah maybe indeeed feanorian, since i still use th instead of s, and feanor never adapted this change too <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>but with ii dou you mean long i = í or 2 different i-sounds after eachother pronounced?<BR><BR>and i do not turn back ALL changes made around that time, so its not completely vanyarin<BR>probably its the<b> Feanyaroldorin Quenya</b>-dialect <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR>edit: oops forgotten my own name in it<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> which gives Feanyaroldidin <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0>
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Postby Eluchil » Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:29 pm

Yes ii is shorthand for í since I don't have the latter symbol on my keyboard. It is a habit I picked up reading the aforementioned email lists; they discourage the posting of higher order character like í since not everyone can read them.<BR><BR>I don't know about <b>Feanoldorian</b> or whatever <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>, but I think your analysis is correct. The language you use reflects the spelling of the First Age Noldor and Second Age Numenoreans but the spoken language of the Noldor in Aman before the last set of pre-Exilic changes (opposed by Feanor) were made.
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:44 pm

<i>Remember, just because Helge Fauskanger says something that doesn't make it true.</i><BR><BR>I do wish people would remember this... <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Are you on Lambengolmor now, Eluchil? I find it vastly more usefull than what Elfling has become. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>And I leave the discussion of the accusative to you. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> You obviously know more about it than I can claim to. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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