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Postby Didi » Tue Aug 20, 2002 11:47 am

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/qevolution.rtf i guess this can be interesting, tough i found it only today so it doesnt have any link with the things i was discussing about...<BR><BR>uh nienna thats realy a compliment <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0> but i guess its not realy true, i am only involved with quenya 2 monhts...and i use the accusative only some weeks <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Eluchil » Tue Aug 20, 2002 8:07 pm

Lambengolmor is a great list. It has about the right level of traffic (elfling too much and Tolklang to little). Not that there is <i>nothing</i> I find anoying about Carl's moderation style, but he is doing a good job (better than I expected) and certainly better than what elfling ultimately became. I accept responsibility for that. I was unwilling to enforce harsh rules and unable to get mild ones to work. <shrug>.<BR><BR>As for the accusative, I'm just applying some of the more basic rules as outlined in the document Didi mentioned (probably my favorite recent asition to Ardalambion) and agreeing with David Salo's ideas revealed in the old post of his I mentioned. Certainly not groundbreaking work. But I have learned a few things over the last few years. <BR>
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Postby Didi » Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:54 pm

okey i gonna explain you all my newest theory, and i hope no one knows any published adjective-noun couple in quenya in dual (or part. pl, but it would have same effect)<BR><BR>okey if they dont exist, i propose there would be (because adjectives agree in number with their dominating noun (not in case)), so they would have a dual number too (& part pl)<BR>the ending for the dual must be -u then, compared with -i in normal plural (rreason for -u not -t: adjectives have in plural only -i, the oldest plutal ending, not the newer -r, and -u is the most originl dual ending, the -t became onlty that common as it s now later)<BR>(partitive plural -li maybe... but that was not my main intention, cause i never use that...)<BR><BR>so that would give eg: the only (pair of) lips:<BR><i>?I eresseu peu </i>(perhaps shortened to ?eressu ???)<BR>adjectives in a can have -au (or u? i m not very deep involved with quenya phonology and possibilities of vowels...)<BR><BR>anyone agreees my new theory? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> (guess not so much <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0> but i like to think out such a things <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>)
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Postby Balance_Keeper » Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:54 am

I thought that adjectives agree in number (dual and partitive) the same way as nouns do (that's what I've been using), but that is a very interesting theory, <b>Didi</b>. Maybe adjectives that end on a vowel should drop it to the favour of <b>u</b> in dual??
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Postby Didi » Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:44 pm

yeah indeed i found it weird that i never wsaw such a things in any site about quenya i visited. they always say:<BR>1) there are 4 numbers, sg, pl, pa pl & du<BR>2) adjectives agree in number with their dominating noun<BR><BR>why do they never learn the reader the dual adjective? weird that mr fauskanger didnt mention it in his Quenya Course... (or his other texts about quenya gramar f course<BR><BR>btw i m gonna pose some questions here cause they arent answered in the translation thread, and they can belong here too...:<BR>1) gen. sg of coa? coao>coo>có?<BR>2)<BR><BR><BR>RE: (12 th page ) lady of rivendel posted:<BR><BR><BR>Date Posted: Jun/02/2002 4:54 AM<BR><BR>"Lover of the gods" will be in Sindarin:<BR>Melethril o belain<BR>Lover [feminin] of powers (, the Valar)<BR>in Quenya:<BR>Meldë Valon <BR>Lover [feminin] of-Powers (who are the Gods)<BR><BR>*~*Undómiel*~* <BR><BR>1st of all: i am just starting with sindarin, so i guess you know better, but i taught it should rather be Melethril i Melain...<BR><BR>2nd<BR>valon???? why not valaron/valion? weird genitival formation<BR><BR><BR>weird i saw no one correcting it after she posted this...
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Postby Eluchil » Sun Aug 25, 2002 10:28 pm

<i>why do they never learn the reader the dual adjective? weird that mr fauskanger didnt mention it in his Quenya Course... (or his other texts about quenya gramar f course</i><BR><BR>No one knows if adjectives have a dual (or partitive plural) or what such forms may look like. Helge could guess, of course, but he usually refrains from placing sheer speculation (as opposed to informed speculation) in his educational work. I suspect that adjectives have no seperate dual and simpley take plural form when agreeing with a dual noun. But this is simply my personal taste. AFAIK, Tolkien never used an adjective with a dual noun or discussed the formation of existence of dual adjectives in <i>any</i> published work.<BR><BR>The genitive of <i>coa</i> was discussed in <a target=new href="http://"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/">elfing</a> messages 5670 and 5729. Nor firm conclusion was reached. We simply don't know what Tolkien intended. BTW, the <a target=new href="http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/search.html">http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/search.html</a> is really a great resource for searching out the answers to questions about Tolkien's languages, provinding over 10 years of archived messages from all of the major email lists devoted to them. <BR><BR><i>RE: (12 th page ) lady of rivendel posted:<BR><BR><BR>Date Posted: Jun/02/2002 4:54 AM<BR><BR>"Lover of the gods" will be in Sindarin:<BR>Melethril o belain<BR>Lover [feminin] of powers (, the Valar)<BR>in Quenya:<BR>Meldë Valon <BR>Lover [feminin] of-Powers (who are the Gods)<BR><BR>*~*Undómiel*~* <BR><BR>1st of all: i am just starting with sindarin, so i guess you know better, but i taught it should rather be Melethril i Melain...<BR><BR>2nd<BR>valon???? why not valaron/valion? weird genitival formation</i><BR><BR>In Sindarin, <i>Melethril Belain</i> or <i>Melethril i-Melain</i> are probably preferable. The propsition <i>o</i>, while it can be translated 'of' really is closer to 'from'. <BR><BR>In Quenya, <i>Valion</i> or <i>Valaron</i> are certainly either correct. While **<i>Valon</i> is wrong, it is understandable. Quenya is the only language I know where the genitive plural ending (<i>-on</i>) must be added to the nomnitive plural of the noun rather than to the basic stem which is clearly <i>Val-</i> in this case. <BR>
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Postby Didi » Mon Aug 26, 2002 3:53 am

uh thanx for that ling for searching the mailing lists at TolkLang, it gives me more possibilities to discover rarities and exceptions in quenya grammar then i ever had before<BR><BR>and thx too for that about the 'lover of the gods' thing that i tried to correct (i needed it realy cause it was for my lady, and i want her to use a RIGHT elvish name <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>)<BR><BR>but still, i will use a dual adjective, until someone proves it isnt correct <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> yeah i m very stubborn for everything about this, and i still beieve its possible for in the markirya there are also adjectives with casual endings (of course because they are places AFTER their noun (isilme btw) but still, it shows that an adjective has more possibilities then only the -i for plural...<BR><BR>but, as i always say, let everybody use his/her own form of elvish (even if its grey-company) , i use some other things too (as above mentioned accusative) which are not common, and possibly the elves even had a dual ending which they replaced by the normal plural just to make it easier, as they always made their language more easy... and i guess an elf would probably understand what i m talking about, even if the dual adjective is wrong <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby Tari_Lightfeather » Thu Aug 29, 2002 2:08 pm

bump
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Postby Tari_Lightfeather » Thu Aug 29, 2002 2:10 pm

bump
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Postby Didi » Fri Aug 30, 2002 4:01 am

HKFauskanger about dual/p pl adjectives in a mail to me:<BR><i><BR>Probably not. I think the general impression (oh, how vague!) is that<BR>adjectives simply have a singular and a non-singular form, the latter<BR>covering both the normal plural, the partitive plural and the dual. In<BR>Markirya, Tolkien did write _ondolisse morne_ for "on dark rocks", the<BR>first word being the locative partitive plural of _ondo_ "rock", whereas<BR>_morne_ is simply the plain plural form of _morna_ "dark". No **_mornali_<BR>or whatever.<BR><BR>
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Postby Tari_Lightfeather » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:57 pm

bump to the top.
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Postby Tari_Lightfeather » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:57 pm

Bad puter posting more than one post.<BR><BR>Bad puter.
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Postby Tari_Lightfeather » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:58 pm

Bad puter posting more than one post.<BR><BR>Bad puter.
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Postby Tari_Lightfeather » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:58 pm

Bad puter posting more than one post.<BR><BR>Bad puter.
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Postby Tari_Lightfeather » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:58 pm

Bad puter posting more than one post.<BR><BR>Bad puter.
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Postby Tari_Lightfeather » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:58 pm

bump to the top.
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Postby Tari_Lightfeather » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:58 pm

bump to the top.
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Postby Didi » Sat Aug 31, 2002 6:22 am

now, a <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0> SEPTUPLE? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0><BR><BR>OR your putter is realy bad, OR your finger was just trilling 7 times quickly after eachother, COINCIDENTALLY (=> of course <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>) just when you wanted to post your bumpie-dumpie<BR><BR>now, hoping here ll soon pass a mod to delete them (i guess you dont mind them being removed? of course it makes your post cownt LOWER, but i guess post count is not important for you<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>)<BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR><i><BR>(btw dont feel THAT bad bout it, i once posted a <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0> ... <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0> in the translation thread, and i m stil awaiting a mod to delete these <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>)<BR>(yeah ... indeed, i just didnt dare to tell it, it were <b>8!</b> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-crying.gif"border=0> octuple you see <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0>)
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Postby Balance_Keeper » Sat Aug 31, 2002 7:46 pm

Competing you two??
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Postby Didi » Sun Sep 01, 2002 10:24 am

oh no what do you think we are ? criminals?<BR>of course not...
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Postby Tari_Lightfeather » Wed Sep 04, 2002 10:25 pm

Nah, just that my puter was being stubborn and the internet was being stubborn as well.<BR><BR>That really sucks when you hit it once and it goes twice or more. But I got a new keyboard and it does not stick.<BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR>
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Sun Sep 08, 2002 5:40 pm

FAQ updated with info on *Elbereth*'s new adoption thread.<BR><BR>Also much thanks to Nilson for our little isolated corner here with much-needed guidelines. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Didi » Sat Sep 21, 2002 2:46 am

<b>2nd page? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0></b><BR><BR>we need to do something for it but just bumping is considered spamming so i have to invent something myself <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>oki what can i ask about elvish?<BR><BR>aag i have it <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR>at ardalambio there is a site with evolution PQ>QU, but no where i can find it for SI ;anyone has a link t oa site giving this?
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Postby Didi » Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:01 pm

no one has an interesting site sort of what i asked? dam is this a dead thread or something? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0>
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Postby Eluchil » Fri Sep 27, 2002 9:34 pm

If it is not on Ardalambion or linked therefrom it probably doesn't exist. I do not think that any PG>Sindarin resource exists beyong a careful study of Ardalambion's Old Sindarin Article.
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Postby frodo2mordor » Fri Sep 27, 2002 10:26 pm

Nienna,<BR>New to a lot of this. Your message, was extremely helpful. I am becoming more and more of a tolkien fan every day, and stumbled upon this message through google. I am trying to learn more and more about elvish, so I can have a proper poem/phrase in the elvish tongue on my brothers grooms cake. Again, thank you, your links are bookmarked and the journey begins.<BR>F2M
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Sat Sep 28, 2002 4:26 pm

People can find me through google? Kewl!! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR>Glad I can help, frodo2mordor.
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Postby Didi » Sat Oct 05, 2002 1:49 pm

is there some doom on this thread?<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> (and so on the official translation thread?; i guess even on the whole language forum?)<BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-crying.gif"border=0>
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Postby Balance_Keeper » Mon Oct 07, 2002 8:37 am

Yeah, quiet like in tomb.
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Postby nami_chan » Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:50 pm

Nienna, you're famous!<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>This place <i>has</i> been suspiciously quite these days. I'm sure when TTT rolls around we'll be back to the good old "What's my name in elvish?" and "How do I say ____ in Elvish?" and "What did ___ say in ____ scene?" type of questions. Don't we all miss them?<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0> Bless the silence while we have it.
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