READ ONLY - Official Sindarin Translation thread I

Tolkien's worlds were birthed out of his love of language and his work at creating new ones. Enter into discussions surrounding Tolkien's languages.

Postby Arion » Sat Dec 28, 2002 2:05 pm

OOps! DP.
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Postby Eression » Sun Dec 29, 2002 3:07 am

<BR>Lauredae/EowynoftheGoldenHall:<BR><BR><i>1: My love for you shall never wane,son of Paladin.</i><BR><BR>Melethen le alluir pelitha, Paladion (or <i>ionn Paladin</i>).<BR><BR><i>2: That may be true, but my light shall fade, while yours lingers. Alone.</i><BR><BR>Ta ae thenin, dan pelitha calad nín, ir lîn taia/adartha. Eriol.<BR><BR><i>3: Then my light shall fade also. I will never leave you Pergrin, never will I take the ship to Valinor</i><BR><BR>Aban pelitha caladen tadui. Alluir awarthathon le Per(e?)grin, alluir gedithon i gair na Valannor.<BR><BR><BR>Arion:<BR><BR><i>I'll hold out on Aerimir and Aervir until you're sure.</i><BR><BR>I think it's Aervir. M inside word usually corresponds to Quenya -mb- or appears only after another m.<BR><BR><i>Besides, how is that pronounced exactly?</i><BR><BR>Ae is a diphthong, but it's not pronounced like in Latin/English; rather as in Latin <b>aër</b>, where you "differentiate" the short a and e (and not make them "ay(=ey)" ). The last i sounds like Am. "ee", but shorter. The final r is definitely heard (trilled).<BR><BR><i>(And, is Gwenneth prounounced like our own "Gwyneth?"</i><BR><BR>gw (as in "guano" ) - én - neth (but both e's are *clear*, as in "ten" )<BR><BR><i>And last, but certainly not least, using the Tengwar Sindarin Font, how would I spell each of the words out?<BR><b><BR>Aerimir (Aervir)<BR>Gwenneth<BR>Gwilwilith</b></i><BR><BR>In Sindarin Classic Mode:<BR><BR>lE7r6T<BR>xP5R:3F<BR>xPjTyjT3T<BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Arion » Sun Dec 29, 2002 11:44 pm

Thanks so much, <b>Eression</b>. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>By the way, how do you know which keys to strike? Is there some sort of key out there that I can look at or download so I don't have to keep bugging you guys anytime I need to write using the Tengwar Sindarin Font?
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Postby Didi » Mon Dec 30, 2002 3:23 am

what i do is putting it in the TengScribe, but since i have only quenya and beleriand mode, i put it in the quenya mode but i change it, say: ithil, i type thili and so go on... then i convert and copypaste<BR><BR>its not the best manner but i get always problem with the vowels otherwis'...
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Postby EowynoftheGoldenHall » Mon Dec 30, 2002 9:59 am

Thanx soo much Eression! You're cool!<BR>I have some little words also:<BR>Hello<BR>Goodbye<BR>A star shines upon our meeting.<BR>The darkness closes over all middle-earth.<BR>I must ride to Imladris. Lord Elrond summons me.<BR><BR>~Lauredae,fair elven maiden of Tirioth,healer of Dincuivie~<BR>p.s: how do you put those two dots above letters?
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Postby Eression » Mon Dec 30, 2002 12:26 pm

<BR>Arion:<BR><BR><i>By the way, how do you know which keys to strike? Is there some sort of key out there that I can look at or download so I don't have to keep bugging you guys anytime I need to write using the Tengwar Sindarin Font?</i><BR><BR><a target=new href="http://www.gis.net/~dansmith/fonts/tengwar.htm#helps">http://www.gis.net/~dansmith/fonts/tengwar.htm#helps</a><BR><BR><BR>Lauredae:<BR><BR><i>I have some little words also:<BR>Hello</i><BR><BR>I believe this is already done, see first message of thread.<BR><BR><i>Goodbye</i><BR><BR>I sometimes use *<b>Nan edelui</b> "Till next time". For good, maybe <b>Daro mae!</b> "Remain well?" (or from Quenya, <b>Navae[r]!</b>).<BR><BR><i>A star shines upon our meeting.</i><BR><BR>Síla gîl/êl na 'ovaded vín.<BR><BR><i>The darkness closes over all middle-earth.</i><BR><BR>Solir aen i vôr/vorn or Ennor bán.<BR><BR><i>I must ride to Imladris. Lord Elrond summons me.</i><BR><BR>Boe anim *neriad/*northad na Imladris. I Chîr Elrond nin toltha.<BR><BR><i>~Lauredae,fair elven maiden of Tirioth,healer of Dincuivie~<BR>p.s: how do you put those two dots above letters?</i><BR><BR>In my keyboard this key is found on the left side of Enter (¨/^/~). Or for <b>ë</b> just press Alt + 0235 of the right side numbers (not 100% sure it's universal though).<BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Varno » Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:43 pm

Someone recently asked me for a Sindarin translation, its a battle cry or something that they wanted, now I am Quenya student, so fogive stupid mistakes.<BR><BR>1: "i shall bring vengence for my friend" = <b>im tegitha acharn an nín mellon</b><BR><BR>2: "Protect the Fortress" = <b>berio i varad</b><BR><BR><b>varad</b>, lenited form of <b>barad</b>. For "protect" i used the imperative.<BR><BR>Varno<BR><BR>
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Postby Eression » Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:14 pm

<BR>Varno, 100% intelligible. Only the possessive adjective/pronoun is usually placed after main word, so <b>an mellon nín</b>.<BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Arion » Mon Dec 30, 2002 11:17 pm

Thanks again, <b>Eression</b>. It looks a bit complicated for me, though <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>. I'll have to study it a bit. Thanks again!
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Postby Varno » Wed Jan 01, 2003 9:18 am

Yes thats what I thought Eression, especially after hearing it like that in TT film, oh well, whats done is done, thankyou.<BR><BR>Varno
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Postby Varno » Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:05 pm

<b>Suilad</b><BR><BR>Ok, here is my next attempt at Sindarin, this phrase, i feel is completely wrong.<BR><BR><i>the desire of my spirit is urging me to sail over the sea</i><BR><BR><b>i aníra faer nín hortha nin revio or i 'aer</b><BR><BR>any comments greatly appreciated.<BR><BR><b>Cuio mae<BR><BR>Varno</b>
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Postby Eression » Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:28 pm

<BR><i>the desire of my spirit is urging me to sail over the sea<BR><BR><b>i aníra faer nín hortha nin revio or i 'aer</b></i><BR><BR><b>Aníra</b> is a verb, the least you should do it replace it with the gerund, <b>anírad</b>. <b>Revio</b> is an infinitive or imperative, the present (3rd pers.) singular form needed here is <b>revia</b>. <b>Or</b> might go, though I might use <b>ath(ra)</b> "across" instead, to avoid the connotation "above the sea".<BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Eression » Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:29 pm

<BR><i>the desire of my spirit is urging me to sail over the sea<BR><BR><b>i aníra faer nín hortha nin revio or i 'aer</b></i><BR><BR><b>Aníra</b> is a verb, the least you should do it replace it with the gerund, <b>anírad</b>. <b>Revio</b> is an infinitive or imperative, the present (3rd pers.) singular form needed here is <b>revia</b>. <b>Or</b> might go, though I might use <b>ath(ra)</b> "across" instead, to avoid the connotation "above the sea".<BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Varno » Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:41 pm

Thanks Eression, again, some superb work from you <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby Eression » Wed Jan 01, 2003 4:39 pm

<BR>Sorry, just noticed (I dunno what my brain was doing there): since "to sail" is a secondary verb (subordinate verb), it should be gerund (as Sindarin uses it here)... so <b>reviad</b>. David Salo also uses an apparently theoretical verb *<b>círad</b> (< KIR-) in the movie (maybe to distinguish from <i>revia</i>'s second meaning, "to fly"? [it comes from RAM-]).<BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Ornendil » Thu Jan 02, 2003 5:32 am

OK I've got a request for a translation. It's a bit long and I was not quite sure if I should give it it's own thread, but you know, to keep number of threads down:<BR><BR>What I want is a Sindarin (with a hint of Doriathrin if you can manage) translation of this song here:<BR><BR>HARVEST OF SORROW<BR><BR>She is gone<BR>Leaves are falling down<BR>The tear maiden will not return<BR>The seal of oblivion is broken<BR>And a pure love's been turned into sin<BR><BR>At the dawn of our living time<BR>Hope may cover all cries<BR>Truth lurks hidden in the shadows<BR>Dreams might be filled with lies<BR>Soon there will be light<BR>Pain remains inside<BR><BR>Suddenly it seemed so clear<BR>All the blindness was taken away<BR>She closed her eyes<BR>And she called out my name<BR>She was never ever seen again<BR><BR>Harvest of Sorrow<BR>Your seed is grown<BR>In a frozen world full of cries<BR>When the ray of life shrinks<BR>Shall cold winter nights begin<BR><BR>She is gone<BR>And I fall from grace<BR>No healing charm covers my wounds<BR>Fooled's the dawn<BR>And so am I<BR>Fooled by life and a bitter doom<BR>To bring you the end of the day<BR><BR>At the dawn of our living time<BR>Hope it soon will pass by<BR>Facing a darkness<BR>I stand alone<BR><BR>It is Blind Guardian's Harvest of Sorrow. As some know, I have a thread over in Movies dedicated to a screenplay I'm writing and I should very much like to use this song in it. Anyone?
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Postby Eression » Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:42 am

<BR>Ah, I guessed it was BG before scrolling all the way down... <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Maybe I'll try one third of it and leave others something to do as well.. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> NO, I'm not that fast... But, that for now due to my slow pace and irritating tendency for little mistakes... (I'll try to keep with the "word rhythm" wherever I can)<BR><BR><BR><i>She is gone<BR>Leaves are falling down<BR>The tear maiden will not return<BR>The seal of oblivion is broken<BR>And a pure love's been turned into sin</i><BR><BR>He (si) gwan(nen)<BR>Dannar lassin dad<BR>i nírnawen ú-ethelitha<BR>Areneda/Avarina soleg narchan(nen)/ristan(nen)<BR>A meleth boeg an úgerth perthan(nen)<BR><BR><b>si</b> = "now"<BR><BR><BR><i>At the dawn of our living time<BR>Hope may cover all cries<BR>Truth lurks hidden in the shadows<BR>Dreams might be filled with lies<BR>Soon there will be light<BR>Pain remains inside</i><BR><BR>Ned aurost lú-e-guilada mhín<BR>Ae tobatha estel genid phain<BR>Anwe hall mhi núath dulla<BR>Ely ae pathrathar na úain<BR>Allim ennas i galad<BR>Naeg nedh dâr<BR><BR>(Old) <b>aurost</b> "dawn" is from LT1:271.<BR>*<i>Anwe</i> for "truth" (root ANA-[2]) modelled after S. <b>bronwe</b> "endurance, faith" (SD:62).<BR><BR><BR>(cf. <a target=new href="http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/doriath.htm">http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/doriath.htm</a> ; <b>mh</b> merely distinguishes <b>m</b> > <b>v</b> from <b>b</b> > <b>v</b> through an old orthography)<BR><BR>I encourage others to try the rest. It's practice. ... I may try again in a couple of days (perhaps even edit the above, it's bound to contain at least some glitches which could be put better [though not perfect <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>]).<BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Tiniowien » Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:20 am

<b>Suliad!</b><BR><BR>I was just wondering if anyone could translate these for me?<BR><BR><b>Be thou well.</b> (Or something along those lines)<BR><BR><b>The child speaks true.</b> (or just the word <b>true</b>)<BR><BR>and <BR><BR><b>Do I have your love?</b> <BR><BR>Thank You.
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Postby Tiniowien » Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:20 am

<b>Suliad!</b><BR><BR>I was just wondering if anyone could translate these for me?<BR><BR><b>Be thou well.</b> (Or something along those lines)<BR><BR><b>The child speaks true.</b> (or just the word <b>true</b>)<BR><BR>and <BR><BR><b>Do I have your love?</b> <BR><BR>Thank You.
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Postby Ornendil » Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:50 am

Thanks Eression. You rock! I will add an entry for you in the credits though you already have one.<BR><BR><a target=new href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=13&threadid=45039">http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=13&threadid=45039</a><BR><BR>Look under language in the credits. I will add you under Soundtrack Lyrics as well.
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Postby Eression » Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:09 pm

<BR>Tiniowien:<BR><BR><i>Be thou well. (Or something along those lines)</i><BR><BR>No mae = Be well<BR>Daro mae = Remain well<BR><BR><i>The child speaks true. (or just the word true)</i><BR><BR>Pêd i chên <b>thenin</b>.<BR><BR><i>Do I have your love?</i><BR><BR>Gerin i veleth lín?<BR><BR><BR>And another (quasi-)Doriathrin translation attempt for Ornendil... <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><BR><BR><i>Suddenly it seemed so clear<BR>All the blindness was taken away<BR>She closed her eyes<BR>And she called out my name<BR>She was never ever seen again</i><BR><BR>Be vragol thiant (ha) *hî lim<BR>i *argennas bán (ar/*aw) memmir aen<BR>He chennin în soll<BR>A cann (he) i eneth nín<BR>Ad *alluir hen tíranner aen<BR><BR>(since <b>mab-</b>, pa.t. *<b>memmi-</b> means "take *away* by force" by itself, the preceeding adverb "away" is probably not necessary)<BR><BR><i>Harvest of Sorrow<BR>Your seed is grown<BR>In a frozen world full of cries<BR>When the ray of life shrinks<BR>Shall cold winter nights begin</i><BR><BR>Iavas/Crithad en Nienor/Naeth<BR>i eredh lín gallen<BR>Mhi ardhon chellen pant na genid<BR>Ir i alag cuila penna<BR>Heriathar i ríud(h)uin chilch/ring<BR><BR>(<b>Dû</b> is probably the Dor. equivalent of "night" (cf. <i>dúlinn</i> "nightingale" ), as <b>fuin</b> is in (later) Sindarin. Second elements in a compound are sometimes not lenited, as we can see in <b>Nauglamîr</b>. The Doriathrin genitive and plural affixes, <b>-a</b> and <b>-in</b> respectively, appear here again.)<BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Ornendil » Sat Jan 04, 2003 3:53 am

Damn you<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0> Posting stuff in "Doriathrin" as if it wasn't even a challenge<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> Wish I was that good. I find no words for my thanks. Thank you! You rock.<BR><BR>*Ornendil turns around and ask carefully: "ehrm... there..are two more..lines... You wouldn't mind....coming up with........those?"*<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby skyfiery » Sat Jan 04, 2003 4:49 am

Is there actually a "Doriathrin?" If so, are there any sites I can go to to know more about it?<BR><BR>Sky
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Postby Didi » Sat Jan 04, 2003 5:31 am

all what i know from doriathrin, is that it looks close to sindarin but then more archaic, theres something about it on ardalambion, and i think that it possibly only existed at the time of the LHAMMAS/lost road, so that it was dropped later?
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Postby Ornendil » Sat Jan 04, 2003 6:39 am

I have been in the impression that it is still valid. After all many of the names and phrases in the Silm. are Doriathrin. Túrin's toombstone for instance. I think it may be not a language on it's own, but more like a dialect of Sindarin.
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Postby Eression » Sat Jan 04, 2003 7:15 am

<BR>Yep, check the link to Ardalambion's page I provided somewhere above. Helge writes: "Did Doriathrin as a distinct language survive this major revision? Later Tolkien speaks of "the Sindarin of Doriath" (PM:369). But in the <i>Silmarillion</i>, including the parts that were revised after Tolkien had completed LotR, Doriathrin names and phrases persist: <b>Mablung, Nauglamîr, Dagnir Glaurunga, Dior</b>. At least as far as these names are concerned, the Doriathrin of the <i>Etymologies</i> did make it into the mature form of the mythos. Perhaps the Doriathrin language glimpsed in the <i>Etymologies</i> can pass for an archaic form of Sindarin, though it seems to have some peculiarities all its own and is different from the "ON" (Old Noldorin, read Old Sindarin) of the <i>Etymologies</i>."<BR><BR><BR>Hmm... let's see...<BR><BR><BR><i>She is gone<BR>And I fall from grace<BR>No healing charm covers my wounds<BR>Fooled's the dawn<BR>And so am I<BR>Fooled by life and a bitter doom<BR>To bring you the end of the day</i><BR><BR>He (si) gwan(nen)<BR>A dannon o *erwant<BR>Ú luth nestadren charwin nín toba<BR>Gwerian(nen) i aurost<BR>A *hî im sui<BR>Na guil gwerian(nen), na amarth haer<BR>A thoged le i mhethed (i) aura<BR><BR>(Possible short past participles of Dor. based on <b>thurian</b> and <b>Neithan</b>; *<i>erwant</i> "grace" based on Q. <i>Eruanna</i>)<BR><BR><i>At the dawn of our living time<BR>Hope it soon will pass by<BR>Facing a darkness<BR>I stand alone</i><BR><BR>Ned aurost lú-e-guilada mhín<BR>Hartho(?) gwannatha *allim (ha)<BR>Mhôr nivrol<BR>Im eriol/ereb *týl<BR><BR>(Is "hope" meant to be a verb imperative? If it's just a noun, then <b>Estel</b> or <b>Harthad</b>. *<i>Tyl-</i> "to stand" is derived from TYUL-.)<BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Ornendil » Sat Jan 04, 2003 2:53 pm

As I am not a linguist (yet), I am not excactly familiar with all the symbols you use. What does the asterix at the beginning of some words mean?<BR><BR>I have tried to sing it outloud some and (if looking away from my voice<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>)I must say it sounds really good. One can of course not follow all the rules for stress (I guess they are the same as for regular Sindarin which I have but picked up from various places as I only know the Quenya stress rules) and such when singing it, but that's how it is when singing I guess.<BR><BR>Do you know a place where one can learn about the pronounciation rules for Sindarin? I can't find any on Ardalambion<BR><BR><BR><BR>Thank you very much.<BR>-Ornendil
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Postby Ornendil » Sat Jan 04, 2003 3:15 pm

"Hope"<BR><BR>I think it should be read something like: I hope it soon will pass by, as hope has already passed by a long time ago, and he hopes the dawn of his life(from the line above) will soon pass by(it is Túrin singing right before he kills himself)and become night(death).
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Postby Tiniowien » Sat Jan 04, 2003 8:06 pm

Thank you Eression <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Eression » Sun Jan 05, 2003 2:11 am

<BR>Ornendil:<BR><BR><i>As I am not a linguist (yet), I am not excactly familiar with all the symbols you use. What does the asterix at the beginning of some words mean?</i><BR><BR>Unattested non-grammatical form; a reconstruction/newword.<BR><BR><i>Do you know a place where one can learn about the pronounciation rules for Sindarin? I can't find any on Ardalambion</i><BR><BR>Sindarin is usually stressed on the penultimate syllable (with a possible secondary stress on the last syllable as in Welsh, maybe..?).<BR><BR><i>I think it should be read something like: I hope it soon will pass by, as hope has already passed by a long time ago, and he hopes the dawn of his life(from the line above) will soon pass by(it is Túrin singing right before he kills himself)and become night(death).</i><BR><BR>I hope = Harthon<BR>Hope! = Hartho<BR><BR><BR>
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