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Postby Gil-Estel » Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:04 am

Well, yes I was asking in the geographic sense. I didn't know that Anvers = Antwerpen. So I feel a little stupid now.
Didi - please do include the older forms on the charts: 60 years is not archaic but rather closer to my age than I am to yours :wink: Also sanitised modern forms are impoverished, IMHO.
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Postby Didi » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:34 am

Yea but the weird thing is that texts we saw from like 1920 or even end 1800's do not have so many archaic forms, whereas books from the period around WW II have them. So I'm not sure if there was either a co-existence in written language (choise of the writer) or, imho also probable, the re-adding of them later. Maybe by wanting to copy the Germans or so ;)

I'm eagerly waiting for new webspace :P
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Postby Didi » Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:53 am

Well as promised I'd post this here :)
It's kind of bad quality but you can compare it with the link given in an earlier post.

http://users.telenet.be/masurediederik/dial.bmp

The big bundle of isoglosses in the east I have marked with green, they separate the Limburgian dialects from the rest. They are very closel related to Low German.

In the west I have drawn a red line separating West-Flemish dialects from the others. On the original map you can indeed see quite some lines running together there. They have preserved quite some Middle-Dutch thingies and are therefore considered very archaic

The dark blue line makes a frontier between the dialects of Holland (north-west of the line) and Brabant (south-east of the line).
It runs together with a dike, the "famous" Moerdijk, which splits up the northern and the southern language area.
In my stupidness I have drawn the blue line also between Zeeland and Holland, so the western part of the line should have another colour ;)

The yellow line I have drawn to indicate the eastern border of linguistic Holland, and the brown-beige one around Zeeland, which to me is something between West-Flemish and Hollandic, but of course also quite different.

In the other areas I saw not many isogl.s running together and I don't know enough about the dialectical situations there, but this map might give you some small idea at least :)
Of course my paint-lines are quite roughly drawn somewhere where I guessed the middle of the bundle, not really some representation of the reality where 2 totally different languages meet eachother in exact that border ;)







EDIT: forgot to mention. Saw the good belgian movie "De Kus" today (in theaters) but I guess you can't rent it overthere when it comes out. Sad.
One of the best Dutch-spoken movies I remember :)
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Postby Gil-Estel » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:26 pm

Didi - very nicely done isogloss map. It is formatted well with the feature that allows me to enlarge it for better viewing.
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Postby Carnëmerethion » Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:15 am

just popping in to say what a great thread this is :D
i didn't know you started such a thread Didi
i will read it all when i have the time :D, i always wanted to learn vlaams ;)

ga je straks ook met zaans beginnen? :D

(I saved you guys from dialectical wijlie, welle, hullie, hun, zun, zullie, gulle, gelle, golle and others these are personal pronouns, nominative as well )


:D:D:D


edited to improve my dutch :roll:
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Postby Carnëmerethion » Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:16 am

srry double post :oops:
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Postby Didi » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:49 am

Good G-E :) It's weird, I can't really enlarge it without losing all quality :?

Well in the end I decided not to make some kinda Vloms from it :D
Just standard
And I don't know much about the differences since I only know this, and not yours ;)

En ik ken jmmr genoeg geen Zaans...


And, reading my older post in your quote, that reminds me of the many personal pronouns we have :shock: really a mess... I found West-Flemish wulder, julder, gulder, (h)ulder that might be added to the list as well
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Postby Carnëmerethion » Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:54 pm

wulder, julder, gulder, (h)ulder


lol, what do they mean? :D

maybe you should let your 'class' ;) read our stories in the dutch guild :D or is that to difficult, with al the made-up-dutch-words? :D[/quote]
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Postby Didi » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:25 am

Lol that reminds me that I haven't even read them myself... maybe you (as the honourable writer) could introduce them?

Wulder means wij, julder and gulder are jullie, and about ulder I'm not sure, it's either jullie (as object) or hun...
When we went on a 4-day cycling trip with some friends to Ostend it was really linguistically interesting as well... We left in Antwerp where we were adressed with golle, then we drove through Ghent where someone called us gunder, and a bit further we suddenly turned into gulder and julder :P
Good we didn't go through Limburg where we would have been geer...

It must really be difficult for Netherlanders to make the same trip :)
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Postby Carnëmerethion » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:47 am

maybe i will:D but i'll wait till some of the students are here again:D

haha, i think it would be quite hard indeed :D
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Postby Earendilyon » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:48 am

Didi, I didn't see lines on your map in the North-Eastern corner of the Netherlands, nor one seperating Friesland from the rest. Is this on purpose or lack of knowledge about these languages and dialects on your part? The Frisian language is an alltogether diffrent language than the language spoken in the rest of the Netherlands. Also the dialects in Groningen, Drenthe, a small part of Friesland, Overijssel and a part of Gelderland (Achterhoek, Twente) are dialects belonging to the Lower Saxon language group. I think the line can be drawn somewhere along the North-Eastern borders of the Veluwe.

Edit: if you look on this map, I think you could draw the line somewhere alongside the River Ijssel, from Zwolle to Arnhem. All dialects to the East and North of that line (except for Frisian) would be Lower Saxon dialects (I think ;)).
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Postby Didi » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:43 am

Well, both by lack of knowledge about the actual situation and clearness on the map... I saw some lines but less grouped than on the other spots so...
And I thought they only compared the Dutch dialects and left out the Frisian ones, so that they were not taken into account

Carnë: got no real students anymore :)










EDIT: just found a West Flemish widder, = wij :shock: :shock: :shock:

EDIT 2: and under, same as ulder that is :shock:

Seeking pop lyrics online can be very educational :)
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Postby Carnëmerethion » Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:56 am

sure you have, they only are on schoolvacation(or something like that) :D :roll:
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Postby Gil-Estel » Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:11 pm

Wow, I received a magazine for business travellers that gave useful phrases in German, Dutch and a couple of other languages side by side in a little chart. I think that Dutch is much more similar to English in syntax and word order than is German.
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Postby Didi » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:44 am

They even have parallell developments lately ;)

I'm bigger than she -> I'm bigger than her
Ik ben groter dan zij -> ik ben groter dan (als) haar

Few people seem to use the former one which is imho the only really grammatical correct one.
A :P to all people despising dialect: dialect speakers often still have it right!
But whenever you start talking Standard D. for some reason you start doing it wrong :)
Really strange.


It's very strange to me how these 3 different and separated languages sometimes behave very alike (cfr. diphthongisation of î, û)

About the chart, with the big festivities being over I hope I can continue again :oops:
Happy New Year btw, of: een gelukkig nieuwjaar allemaal!!

PS in the movie "Ocean's 12" there's some Dutch, as a part is played in Amsterdam.
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Postby Earendilyon » Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:10 am

PS in the movie "Ocean's 12" there's some Dutch, as a part is played in Amsterdam.

Though the 'Amsterdam Central' railway station in not A'dam CS, but (IIRC) Haarlem CS.
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Postby Gil-Estel » Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:43 am

Didi - Dialect speakers rule! (To use a very modern expression). JRRT thought so too, having great interest in the dialects of older forms of English - Mercian vs West Saxon, etc. This is nicely discussed in Tom Shippey's J.R.R. Tolkien:Author of the Century which I am currently reading. Shippey is a philologist himself and gives tremendous insight into the different ways Tolkien used forms of English.

He who knows only the standard form of a language and no dialect of their own region is, I think, rather impoverished. Comment not meant as a flame. I can speak the agrammatical dialect of my own area when I wish to put someone at ease. Here, however, I try to offer the best that I can, both in grammar and vocabulary, as befitting my role as an "elder".
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Postby Didi » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:41 pm

How do you mean an 'elder'? Is it some kind of hierarchy in your region?

And Ear: could be, but the city they walk in isn't taht really Amsterdam?
+ anyway, I heard some guy talk Dutch in that prison thing. And somewhere else (forgot).
There's also some written Dutch on a pass that someone uses.

Was kind of a laugh in the cinema, all of a sudden everyone heard some kinda guy speak Dutch and we were like "ooh lol 'nen Ollander in this movie? :shock: " usually films playing in other countries are still fully in English, even when autochthonous people speak
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Postby Earendilyon » Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:47 pm

Didi wrote:How do you mean an 'elder'? Is it some kind of hierarchy in your region?

And Ear: could be, but the city they walk in isn't taht really Amsterdam?

(....)

usually films playing in other countries are still fully in English, even when autochthonous people speak

G-E probably meant 'elder' in the normal, age related, way :)

I haven't seen O's 12 myself. I do know, though, that there was much ado in A'dam this past summer because of the film shootings, so I guess it's really A'dam :)

Except for such classics as The Longest Day and A Bridge Too Far. In the latter, though, there are some characters speaking "Dutch", which is hardly recognisable, because the actors weren't even Dutch themselves!
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Postby Didi » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:12 pm

Ah yes, The Longest Day, I actually wanted to see it again but it never happened. So long ago but I still remember big parts of it. Made quite some impression on 10 year old Didi :)

I think "Stalingrad" had this too. Not sure if it was the real title though. Not the new one, some old version, iirc the Germans can't understand the Russians and vice versa.
But no Dutchies in there so :D that's something rather rare.

Btw GE which dictionary do ou use again?
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Postby Gil-Estel » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:50 am

Yes, I did mean 'elder' in the normal age related sense. I was the oldest child in my family and was always told to 'set a good example' for the younger ones. :wink:
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Postby Didi » Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:17 am

Gil-Estel wrote:I can speak the agrammatical dialect of my own area when I wish to put someone at ease.


Did I understand you wrong? *hopes*
Or is agrammatical the same word as ungrammatical? :shock:

Reminds me of Christmas dinner, my sister said "Ik geefde" which kinda bothered me (I'm a big fan of strong verbs) so I replied "Ik gaf" and she said "Yea I know, but like in dialect"
Me even more bothered, of course everyone says "Ik gaf" even in dialect but it didn't matter how often I told her that the difference standard language/dialect was not one of good/bad grammar.
Many people seem to think: if you conjugate verbs correctly, it's standard language and if you don't inflect them at all or very poorly it's dialect
:roll:
IMHO both every dialect and the SL have an equal grammar in an historical point of view. Some archaic features that have been lost in dialects might be preserved in the SL, and the SL may have wiped out irregular yet original inflections because of analogy. At least that makes it easier to learn for foreigners :lol:


But I seem to have noticed that in the states many dialect speakers indeed inflect their verbs not in the standard way (= not at all even), but I guess that's maybe because of the immigrations and so different backgrounds that have melted together in America.
But on the other hand, I don't know how much I can trust on "movie dialects"

Anyway, drifting off-topic atm :)


Question to Ear for my chart: do you know the archaic accusative of the word wie?
I know the phrase aan wien but I saw it as a dative. Might be accusative as well though? And I'm not so sure about which case was used anyway after prepositions.
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Postby Earendilyon » Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:33 am

Didi wrote:Question to Ear for my chart: do you know the archaic accusative of the word wie?
I know the phrase aan wien but I saw it as a dative. Might be accusative as well though? And I'm not so sure about which case was used anyway after prepositions.

I wouldn't know. I'd say wien, but don't pin me on that! I heard tell, one time, that Dutch not had really cases and such, till somewhere in the 19th century. Liguistics seemed to think Dutch should be "upgraded" to the example of German, so they put in all kinds of cases and such :)


On a side note: I just found out there's version of Wikipedia in Alemannisch! Long live the dialects!

Other dialects/languages: Simple English (a.k.a. American English), Frysk, Lëtzebuergesch, Plattdüütsch (belongs to the Lower Saxon languages), Rumantsch (one of several Rhaetian languages).
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Postby Didi » Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:58 am

Yea that was also my thought (compare what I wrote about the accusative)
And prolly they indeed took back the endings of the middledutch (which certainly did have cases) and made them a bit more modern or so.
Or took several endings that relicted in some dark peripheric places and made them standard or so ;)

Alemannish. Cool. The German in Switzerland etc. is indeed very hard to understand!!
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Postby Gil-Estel » Sun Jan 09, 2005 3:21 pm

Didi - 'agrammatical' could mean the the same as 'ungrammatical' but not necessarily. To mean "poor grammar", the word 'ungrammatical' would be likely used. But I chose 'agrammatical' because I was thinking in the sense of "no grammar" vs "poor grammar". Forms of English are spoken here that aren't archaic, aren't a known variant but reflect a severe lack of knowledge of grammar at all. I wish it could be written off as a picturesque dialect but it is really only lack of education. It is not universal in this area to be able to give the present indicative of the verb "to be" in all 6 froms of person and number.
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Postby Earendilyon » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:37 am

Something you might find interesting: in the book I use to teach History to 16 and 17 year olds, we had a subject concerning 19th and early 20th century Dutch immigrants to the US. As an example of assimilation of those people, a part of a letter was show, written in 'Yakee-Dutch':
Ja, ja, en dat is zoo troe als wat hoor! Ik heb dat leetlie nog weer uitgevonden met mijn booi Henkie, die voor minnister studdied, joeno. Hij zegt: deddie, wat voor doe joe want dat boek nog weer gepubblist. 't Is een sjeem to poet al dat Duts getok bevoor de piepel.'

I hope you can read it. Especially the English speaking part of the audience :)
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Postby Didi » Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:11 am

I do ;) really interesting :shock:

Code: Select all
't Is een sjeem to poet al dat Duts getok bevoor de piepel.'
This one I don't fully understand though... Is it a shame that they talk Dutch to the people? :?



Ok to make some more work off that chart I will begin posting things here so other people can revise it... I don't know if you want me to copy the final info into some kind of grid (Excel maybe?) or if you'd like to make it yourself (if you have something special in mind). Up to you really :)

Anyway, for today I'd like the noun confirmed :)



Strong masc./neut (most m./n. nouns have this, even historical weak ones)

Nom./Acc.

Gen. +s
Dat. +e

Plural+en (or +s)

Eg:
deel (part)
deels
dele
delen

Where deels is now a word for "partial", not sure if it's an adverb with s or a genitive with s... but if it would have a genitive it would be deels anyway :)
Oh *remembers* grotendeels is a word "for the biggest part" from groten (genitive of adj.) + deels so because of the groten I'm sure it is genitive :)

dele as dative you have in "ten dele", also meaning something like "for a part, partial(ly)"...


Weak nouns are seldom.
You have heer, lord or sir or mister, in the Bible written as HEERE to indicate God
It has as genitive heren with +en, in the phrase "het jaar des heren", Anno Domini
Het is des mensen, it's something in the human instinct, behavior.

They have the same plural. I have never seen them attested in dative so I can only guess for heren there, but might be (strong) here as well. Something that will have to be left open so far :)

Fem. nouns usually have only plural and singular forms, no different cases I think, though there might occur some datives with +e (???)
You have a genitive "der wrake" of (the) revenge, revenge is wraak but in archaic language that's also nom. wrake so I think it's no real genitive +e.
For the dative you have "ter sprake (komen)", "ter zake" etc, as well as "in stede van" instead of, derived from spraak, zaak, stad, the first two might be archaic +e from nominative as well (if they ever had it), but the last case is surely an e from inflection :)
So I think you can have (+e) between brackets, since many words (eg. the ones in -ing) have nothing.

That's all what's left of cases in nouns afaik
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Postby Didi » Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:12 pm

http://taal.phileon.nl/kaart/hoppenbrouwers.php
At last I also found something about zones in the Netherlands :)

Or another one @ http://taal.phileon.nl/kaart/daan.php


http://taal.phileon.nl/kaart/dialectgebruik.php
About frequency of the usage of dialects.

Hoeveel dialect wordt er tegenwoordig nog gesproken?
Het is moeilijk in te schatten hoeveel dialect er tegenwoordig nog in Nederland wordt gesproken, aangezien er nooit algemeen onderzoek naar wordt gedaan. Een goede schatting is, dat in bepaalde delen van Nederland (Friesland, Limburg en delen van Zeeland) nog ongeveer door 70% van de inwoners een dialect wordt gesproken, in sommige provincies ligt dat rond de 50-60% (Groningen, Drenthe, Overijssel), in andere delen wordt nog af en toe dialect gesproken (Gelderland, Noord-Brabant, de kop van Noord-Holland), en in Zuid-Holland, Utrecht en de rest van Noord-Holland wordt nauwelijks meer dialect gesproken. Kortom, hoe dichter bij de randstad, hoe minder sterk de positie van het dialect. Dit heeft natuurlijk ook te maken met het feit dat de dialecten in de randstad nauwelijks van het Standaard Nederlands verschillen.
Klik hier voor een overzichtskaartje


(af en toe cf. German ab und zu, No. av og til; I know not the best translation (idiom) in English but it means sometimes but not too often))







http://taal.phileon.nl/kaart/ij.php The diphthongisation of old î has only happened in half of the language-area ;)

http://taal.phileon.nl/kaart/ui.php The old û has undergone diphth. in about the same area




http://taal.phileon.nl/kaart/bracht.php EEEEEEEEK look at this one!
Very strange, the past of brengen is bracht in Standard D., yet most dialects have brocht (like Engl. brought), and even the most important ones ie. that of Holland, Brabant and Flanders!
Developers of Standard Languages are weird guys sometimes ;)








EDIT nr 10 or so :P (I'm in a very net-exploring mood tonight!)

Aantal sprekers
Uit een drietal regionale onderzoeken (Evenhuis 1995; Riemens 1995; Menheere 1988) is af te leiden dat in heel Zeeland waarschijnlijk nog voor ruim 60% van de Zeeuwse bevolking Zeeuws de eerste en belangrijkste taal is. Van de overige 40% heeft zeker de helft enige passieve of actieve kennis van de taal. Goeree, Schouwen en Duiveland, het uiterste westen en oosten van Zuid-Beveland, de westpunt van Walcheren en West-Zeeuws-Vlaanderen kennen de hoogste percentages dialectsprekers. Positieve uitschieters zijn dorpen als Bruinisse, Arnemuiden en Westkapelle (met zelfs meer dan 90% Zeeuwstaligen onder de jongeren) en de meeste West-Zeeuws-Vlaamse dorpen (met name Hoofdplaat, Breskens en Schoondijke).
In West-Vlaanderen spreekt bijna 90% van de gehele bevolking nog (bij voorkeur) West-Vlaams (ruim 1 miljoen sprekers). In Frans-Vlaanderen wordt de streektaal alleen door de alleroudsten (soms meer dan 80%) en vijftig-plussers (ca. 10-50% sprekers, afhankelijk van de plaats) nog gesproken (totaal nog slechts zo'n 20.000 sprekers).
Er is in Frans-Vlaanderen echter een opmerkelijk grote belangstelling voor cursussen in de streektaal. De verwachting is dan ook, dat het Frans-Vlaams nooit helemaal zal uitsterven, maar hoe langer hoe meer voorbehouden zal zijn aan een relatief kleine groep zeer taalbewuste tweetaligen.
Het totaal aantal sprekers van Zeeuws/West-Vlaams/Frans-Vlaams ligt, inclusief de sprekers in een aantal enclaves in vooral Noord- en Zuid-Amerika (Michigan, Detroit, Brazilië) op ruim 1,5 miljoen.




So for West-Flanders and some parts in Zeeland dialectical speakers form 90% of the population :shock: Sometimes even amongst youth... General in Zeeland is 60%
Elder people in French Flanders still speak for 80% Flemish, adult people only 50-10% and youth almost nought, but there is a revival for the interest in the original language (education and government had almost extinguished the language)

I wasn't actually aware of this, it's a part where I never go...
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Postby Didi » Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:53 am

As I didn't get any response on my previous things I will kick this up again ;)

Fortunately the adjective is much simpler in its forms.
Except in one case, afaik there is no distinction made between strong and weak declension.

For masculine we always have nominative in -e. This is the one that is now the one used in 99% of the cases in Standard. The accusative ends in -en I think. This is the one used in more southern reagions, but I don't know any Standard Dutch expression that still uses it. Also genitive and dative use the -en.
Feminine has the same nominative -e, I don't know about the accusative but it seems like -e to me. Genitive and dative have -er. Iemand op heterdaad betrappen: to catch s.o. red-handed. heterdaad = heter + daad, heet = hot and daad = deed. dative because of the preposition. So you catch someone while the deed is still going on or "hot" ;)
Or in lichterlaaie staan, all ablaze. A fire can "laaien", an alternative verb for burning heavily. The licht(er) refers to the light probably and is dative because of the prep.
Neuter has a strong/weak opposition in the nominative/accusative (as those are identical in all IE languages), being ø/-e (ø means zero-ending).
The other cases are as for the masculine. eg Grotendeels, genitive. with -en.

Plural has +e all around. It might have been otherwise in older language, but nothing of it remains that I know of.
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Postby Earendilyon » Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:29 pm

't Is een sjeem to poet al dat Duts getok bevoor de piepel.'

This one I don't fully understand though... Is it a shame that they talk Dutch to the people?

I think it just means: 'It's a shame to put all that Dutch talk before the people' in other words: it's a shame he would publish the book in Dutch, because most younger people in that Dutch colony in the US already spoke English in stead of Dutch.
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