Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ideas are weapons
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Posted: Mon Sep 9, 2002 4:26 pm |
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I think that Tolkien got the parts from the real siege of Constantinople for parts of tthe siege of Gondor, there quite similar, once i find that link again i'll post it and tell me what you think if he got ideas or not!
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Maria Maria
She reminds me of a west side story
Growing up in Spanish Harlem
She's living the life just like a movie star
Maria Maria
She fell in love in East L.A.
To the sounds of the guitar
Played by Carlos Santana
Stop the looting, stop the shooting
Pick pocking on the corner
See as the rich is getting richer
The poorer is getting poorer
See mi y Maria on the corner
Thinking of ways to make it better
In my mailbox there's an eviction letter
Somebody just said see you later
-Santana "Maria Maria" |
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-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Mon Sep 9, 2002 5:21 pm |
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Welcome to TORC Swordsman_Of_The_Tower !
Your assertion is hard to sustain; most sieges have certain similar qualities (foes outside, garrison inside; siege engines, battering rams etc), and while the Siege of Minas Tirith is no different in that regard, it has certain unique properties not shared with the Siege(s) of Constantinople.
Which Siege of Constantinople are you referring to? If you mean the last successful Siege in 1453, the Walls were breached by a giant bombard (cannon) and the city carried by storm. Or do you mean the Fourth Crusade of 1204?
No Siege of the ancient or medieval world had trenches filled with fire or a gate breached by a giant ram and sorcery .
Most Sieges of Constantinople ended when the Byzantines paid a 'ransom' to the besieging forces or the (usually) Barbarian forces lost patience and went home. I would be interested to see whether your article has any real substance but I suspect not.
PS: A modicum of patience prevents triple posting...
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wilko185
by stok other ston
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Posted: Mon Sep 9, 2002 5:54 pm |
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In The Road to Middle Earth TA Shippey says that the Battle of the Pelennor closely follows Jordannes' account of the battle of the Catalaunian Plains, "in which also the civilisation of the West was preserved from the "Easterlings", and in which the Gothic king Theodorid was trampled by his own victorious cavalry with much the same mixture of grief and glory as Tolkien's Theoden."
This was the defeat of Attila the Hun in 451. http://www.boudicca.de/jordanes3-e.htm.
Edit: It would be quite typical of Tolkien to be inspired by an historical account (nearly contemporary in this case) of the battle, rather than modern factual details. Here's some excerpts culled from that link I gave to the Jordanes account of the Romans (>Gondorians) and Goths (>Rohirrhim) [led by Theodorid (>Theoden) then his son Thorismud (>nephew Eomer)] fighting the Huns (>Easterlings), led by Attila (>WitchKing):
(197) The armies met, as we have said, in the Catalaunian Plains. The battle field was a plain rising by a sharp slope to a ridge, which both armies sought to gain; for advantage of position is a great help. The Huns with their forces seized the right side, the Romans, the Visigoths and their allies the left, and then began a struggle for the yet untaken crest. Now Theodorid with the Visigoths held the right wing and Aëtius with the Romans the left.
....
So then the struggle began for the advantage of position we have mentioned. Attila sent his men to take the summit of the mountain, but was outstripped by Thorismud and Aëtius, who in their effort to gain the top of the hill reached higher ground and through this advantage of position easily routed the Huns as they came up.
.....
(207) And although the situation was itself fearful, yet the presence of their king dispelled anxiety and hesitation. Hand to hand they clashed in battle, and the fight grew fierce, confused, monstrous, unrelenting--a fight whose like no ancient time has ever recorded. There such deeds were done that a brave man who missed this marvelous spectacle could not hope to see anything so wonderful all his life long.
(208) For, if we may believe our elders, a brook flowing between low banks through the plain was greatly increased by blood from the wounds of the slain. It was not flooded by showers, as brooks usually rise, but was swollen by a strange stream and turned into a torrent by the increase of blood. Those whose wounds drove them to slake their parching thirst drank water mingled with gore. In their wretched plight they were forced to drink what they thought was the blood they had poured from their own wounds.
(209) Here King Theodorid, while riding by to encourage his army, was thrown from his horse and trampled under foot by his own men, thus ending his days at a ripe old age.
...
(214) Now during these delays in the siege, the Visigoths sought their king and the king's sons their father, wondering at his absence when success had been attained. When, after a long search, they found him where the dead lay thickest, as happens with brave men, they honored him with songs and bore him away in the sight of the enemy. You might have seen bands of Goths shouting with dissonant cries and paying the honors of death while the battle still raged. Tears were shed, but such as they were accustomed to devote to brave men. It was death indeed, but the Huns are witness that it was a glorious one. It was a death where by one might well suppose the pride of the enemy would be lowered, when they beheld the body of so great a king borne forth with fitting honors.
(215) And so the Goths, still continuing the rites due to Theodorid, bore forth the royal majesty with sounding arms, and valiant Thorismud, as befitted a son, honored the glorious spirit of his dear father by following his remains.
When this was done, Thorismud was eager to take vengeance for his father's death on the remaining Huns, being moved to this both by the pain of bereavement and the impulse of that valor for which he was noted. Yet he consulted with the Patrician Aëtius ( for he was an older man and of more mature wisdom) with regard to what he ought to do next.
This doesn't seem to me to be all that close to the Pelennor Fields (no oliphaunts  ). But there are some similar moments, maybe:
The swift striking of the Goths. The death of their aged king under his own horse, followed by the ceremonial removal of his body from the field. The huns being driven forward into battle by the presence of their fearsome leader. The headstrong rush into battle of the new young king.
The Huns are let off by their enemies at the end of the battle, and then seize the chance to do what the Witch-King must have intended at Minas Tirith. Attila
moved forward his array to attack the Romans. As his first move he besieged the city of Aquileia, the metropolis of Venetia, which is situated on a point or tongue of land by the Adriatic Sea. On the eastern side its walls are washed by the river Natissa, flowing from Mount Piccis.
(220) The siege was long and fierce, but of no avail, since the bravest soldiers of the Romans withstood him from within.
...
. Constructing battering rams and bringing to bear all manner of engines of war, they quickly forced their way into the city, laid it waste, divided the spoil and so cruelly devastated it as scarcely to leave a trace to be seen.
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.. the very monsters and huge fishes of the sea, war not amongst themselves in their own kind: but believe me, man at man's hand receiveth most harm and mischief.
-- Pliny |
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:35 am |
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While Jordanes' account of the Battle of Châlons (Catalaunian Plains) does not closely match the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, as well as the features mentioned by Wilko, other (poetic) elements appear in both - notably the effects on the streams around the battlefield.Jordanes:
(208) For, if we may believe our elders, a brook flowing between low banks through the plain was greatly increased by blood from the wounds of the slain. It was not flooded by showers, as brooks usually rise, but was swollen by a strange stream and turned into a torrent by the increase of blood. Those whose wounds drove them to slake their parching thirst drank water mingled with gore. In their wretched plight they were forced to drink what they thought was the blood they had poured from their own wounds.
JRRT:
(...)Long now they sleep
under grass in Gondor by the Great River.
Grey now as tears, gleaming silver,
red then it rolled, roaring water:
foam dyed with blood flamed at sunset;
as beacons mountains burned at evening;
red fell the dew in Rammas Echor
So while Professor Shippey is reaching a bit in saying Pelennor Fields 'closely follows' Jordanes' account, there are enough elements that are similar to suggest that JRRT took inspiration either consciously or unconsciously from this chronicle.
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roaccarcsson
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Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:21 am |
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Wilko, Romestamo -- thanks very much. This certainly convinces me that the Prof had read Jordanes.
I have always thought however that the capture of Constantinople was also worht mentioning as a source, given that JRRT explicitly equated Gondor with Byzantium. More generally, I think Mordor is to be equated, as far as the geopolitical situtation goes, with Islam, and specifically the Ottoman Empire. Not with respect to its own characteristics, but as "The Enemy" to "Christendom" through much of history.
Consider also the last siege of Vienna by the Turks, which ended happily for the defenders as Constantinople did not; being relieved by a cavalry force led by a king from the North (John Sobieski of Poland).
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:57 am |
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roaccarcsson: More generally, I think Mordor is to be equated, as far as the geopolitical situtation goes, with Islam, and specifically the Ottoman Empire.
Attila "the Scourge of God" and the Steppe peoples are probably a better fit. If the usual projection of 'the Shire is Oxfordshire and Minas Tirith is at the latitude of Florence etc' is used, Mordor sits over the Carpathians and Hungary - where Attila had his 'Capital'. The Ottomans are further south and east - perhaps the Haradrim and Easterlings.
See M-E over Europe. Unfortunately the outline of Europe is very faint.
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Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ideas are weapons
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Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 12:45 pm |
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well in the 1453 siege the moat was filled and reading that article seemed a lot like the siege of Minas-Tirith
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Maria Maria
She reminds me of a west side story
Growing up in Spanish Harlem
She's living the life just like a movie star
Maria Maria
She fell in love in East L.A.
To the sounds of the guitar
Played by Carlos Santana
Stop the looting, stop the shooting
Pick pocking on the corner
See as the rich is getting richer
The poorer is getting poorer
See mi y Maria on the corner
Thinking of ways to make it better
In my mailbox there's an eviction letter
Somebody just said see you later
-Santana "Maria Maria" |
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Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ideas are weapons
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Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:31 pm |
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heres the link
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5990/byzantine/
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Maria Maria
She reminds me of a west side story
Growing up in Spanish Harlem
She's living the life just like a movie star
Maria Maria
She fell in love in East L.A.
To the sounds of the guitar
Played by Carlos Santana
Stop the looting, stop the shooting
Pick pocking on the corner
See as the rich is getting richer
The poorer is getting poorer
See mi y Maria on the corner
Thinking of ways to make it better
In my mailbox there's an eviction letter
Somebody just said see you later
-Santana "Maria Maria" |
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roaccarcsson
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Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 3:00 pm |
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Romestamo, I think you are focusing too narrowly on geography and leaving out history.
Certainly the Easterlings are based on the Huns as well as their later analogues the Mongols.
But we have also the Southrons with their (Turkish) scimitars, and the Corsairs of Umbar whose historical analogue is plainly the Moslem, North African, "Barbary" pirates who for centuries harried Europe all the way to Iceland.
Note also that the adversaries of C.S. Lewis's Narnians, the Calormenes, are Turks in all but name.
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Bilbo25
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Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 8:58 pm |
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Roac that is an excellent point although I am surprised how often it is overlooked because many people do realize how close the friendship between Tolkien and Lewis was and the fact that they were both involved in the Inklings.
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Caspian
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Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 9:36 pm |
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This is quite an interesting angle... I am curious to see if anyone has any other links to addtional articles?
ps-yes, many of us do realize that Lewis & Tolkien had some association... I read the Lewis Chonicles of Narnia years before TOlkien... I love them both!
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2002 10:55 pm |
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Swordsman_Of_The_Tower: (...)in the 1453 siege the moat was filled and reading that article seemed a lot like the siege of Minas-Tirith
Most sieges of fortifications with moats or ditches saw the attackers fill the obstacle to speed their attack. Even in a Siege such as Alesia (one totally unlike the Siege of Minas Tirith) the ditches were filled by the Gauls in their attempted breakout. (See Julius Caesar: The Siege of Alesia ). I don't think that there are sufficient parallels between the Sieges of Constantinople and Minas Tirith to suggest JRRT drew any details from this specific siege, as opposed to sieges in general.
roaccarcsson: (...)given that JRRT explicitly equated Gondor with Byzantium.
(...)Certainly the Easterlings are based on the Huns as well as their later analogues the Mongols.
But we have also the Southrons with their (Turkish) scimitars(...)
Roac, I don't think 'JRRT explicitly equated Gondor with Byzantium' ; indeed, elsewhere in his Letters he refers to The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms (Letter 211), and The progress of the tale ends in what is far more like the re-establishment of an effective Holy Roman Empire with its seat in Rome(...) (Letter 294)and in Letter 168, he (light-heartedly) identifies Gondor with Venice . I think he identifies certain parallels with Byzantium (which letter is that in btw? I can't find it though I know it's there...) - but that is a long way from explicitly equating the two.
The Easterlings are only 'based' on the Huns or Mongols insofar as they are both threats arising in the East. The peoples that we see coming from the East (the Balchoth, Wainriders, the Variags of Khand, and the Easterlings with axes ) bear no similarity to the predominantly light horse skirmishers and archers supported by a smaller armoured lancer elite that comprised both Hun and Mongol Hordes.
While I agree that the Corsairs of Umbar are closely modelled on the Barbary ('Berber') Pirates (even to their use of dromunds), the arming of the Southrons with 'scimitars' is not a conclusive argument. Scimitars (and curved swords in general -such as the ancient Macedonian kopis ) were used by most of the cavalry armies of the East and South including the Ancient Scythians, Hsiung-Nu, Huns, Parthians, Alans and Mongols, as well as the Saracens and Turks. If anything, the Haradrim are most analogous to the Sassanian (or Sassanid) Persians (incidently, they did fight the Byzantines) with their Armoured Cavalry supported by 'Oliphaunts' and levy infantry. (And yes, they mostly had curved swords )
While the view that the Enemy of Gondor was Militant Islam is a possibility, to suggest that this is what JRRT had in mind is drawing a very long bow. "Applicability" does not prove ( or even suggest) intent. In Letter 109 (1947), JRRT writes : Even the struggle between darkness and light (as he [Rayner Unwin] calls it, not me) is for me just a particular phase of history, one example of its pattern, perhaps, but not The Pattern; and the actors are individuals - they each, of course, contain universals, or they would not live at all, but they never represent them as such.
(...)the better and more closely woven a story is the more easily can those so minded find allegory in it. While at one point JRRT comments on Númenor: I have often used Westernesse as a translation. This is derived from rare Middle English Westernesse (known to me only in MS. C of King Horn ) where the meaning is vague, but may be taken to mean 'Western lands' as distinct from the East inhabited by the Paynim [Pagans] and Saracens.
(Letter 276, 1965) , this is still a long way from identifying Sauron with Islam, (not to mention where does this leave Morgoth?). JRRT borrowed from many historical cultures and periods to create his Legendarium, and the created geography forces a certain 'Pattern' of history upon it. While the created world may be 'applied' to 'Real World' situations, this does not prove (or suggest) the author's intent.
------------------
(Edit: C.S. Lewis' Narnia is more deliberately Allegorical, and the provenance of the Calormenes of no particular relevance to Tolkien.)
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roaccarcsson
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2002 11:29 am |
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Romestamo: The reference to Byzantium in relation to Gondor is in the letter to Milton Waldman (No. 131). Page 157 in my edition.
It seems to me quite irrelevant how many different peoples used curved swords. I know of no reason to think that JRRT was particularly interested in the history of armaments. He was an expert on the history of words, and the word "scimitar" would certainly have had Turkish associations for him. (I was going to say "'scimitar' is a Turkish word," but I looked in OED first. OED says in effect, "It ought to be a Turkish word, but does not seem to be found in Turkish." A Persian derivation is tentatively suggested instead.
I am in no way suggesting that Tolkien "modeled" Mordor on the Ottoman Empire. What I am saying is that Middle-Earth was not invented by him ex nihilo, but arises out of a certain interpretation of history, in which there is only one civilization that matters -- "Christian" civilization -- and it has been under continual attack by a series of alien forces. Naive modern readers naturally identify the "Enemy" with Hitler or with the Soviet Union. But the Third Reich lasted only for twelve years, the USSR for about 70, whereas Western Europe was under Islamic pressure for the better part of a millenium. Tolkien's view of history was a long one and not a short one. I do not see how his imagination could not have taken on a coloration from this background.
I think the reference to "paynim and Saracens" in your last quote about "Westerness," which I had overlooked, supports this point rather well. The distinction between the two categories is not significant from this point of view; what matters about both is that they are "non-Christians."
(And I maintain that Lewis is quite relevant, given the constant communication between the two men and the common milieu in which they worked.)
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2002 12:06 am |
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roaccarcsson: What I am saying is that Middle-Earth was not invented by him <ex nihilo>, but arises out of a certain interpretation of history, in which there is only one civilization that matters -- "Christian" civilization -- and it has been under continual attack by a series of alien forces.
I have no disagreement with this line of argument as clarified in your latest post, however I still hesitate to identify "The Enemy" with any single threat to Christendom, no matter how long-lived. Going back to wilko185's first post In The Road to Middle Earth TA Shippey says that the Battle of the Pelennor closely follows Jordannes' account of the battle of the Catalaunian Plains, "in which also the civilisation of the West was preserved from the "Easterlings"(...), these 'Easterlings' are the pagan Huns. As I said in my previous post JRRT borrowed from many historical cultures and periods to create his Legendarium, and the created geography forces a certain 'Pattern' of history upon it. In the case of Gondor, this takes the form of repeated invasions from the East and South. In the case of Western 'Christian' Europe, it is the same -not just the 'Turks'.
(PS: Even your etymology of 'scimitar' suggests the Haradrim could well be pagan Sassanid Persians rather than 'Turks' )
(edit: to improve grammar and clarify ideas)
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Falborn
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2002 6:52 am |
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The Jordannes connection identified by Shippey sounds like a convincing textual inspiration for Tolkien.
Vienna and Venice of the fifteenth century are in some ways historical parallels to Minas Tirith and Peligir. While I don't think Tolkien would think of the Turks as similar to the Easterlings, the two cities, Vienna and Venice were bulwarks against the Turks protecting Christendom; Vienna, home of the ruler of the Holy Roman Empire, withstood the Turks seige, turning back their invasion of Europe: The Venetian Empire and it's powerful navy preventing the spread of the Turks into Italy and beyond along the northern coast of the Mediterranean.
The parallel breaks down around the relationship of the Venetian Republic to the Emporer, if my memory serves. Also the Danube doesn't connect them like Anduin does Gondor's Minas Tirith and Pelegir (obviously). Plus, the source of Venice's wealth was their trading relationship with the East - Constantinople was the Western terminus of the Silk Road trading routes and Venitian merchants connected Europe with Constantinople.
I also think that both Constantinople and Vienna/Venice are too recent to be all that inspiring for Tolkien, although he did remark on visiting Venice late in life that the city looked like Minas Tirith or Pelegir might look.
I had not seen the Europe/Middle Earth map. Very cool! It's a shame that Tolkien never saw it, he would have loved it, IMO. I wonder what his map maker Christopher thinks/might think?
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Almacundo/*Auirandos
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Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:53 am |
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Whoops!
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Almacundo/*Auirandos
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Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:53 am |
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Double whoops!!
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Almacundo/*Auirandos
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Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:53 am |
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I was browsing through An Encyclo[pedia of Great Sieges, by Paul K. Davis, looking for a siege in which a vastly outnumbered group of "good guys" successfully defended a city under siege.
I found the Ostrogothic siege of Rome in 537-538 CE.
The following parallels:
Rome: the siege both began and ended in March (2 March and 12 March)
Minas Tirith: the siege took place 14-15 March
R: inland port on the Tiber
MT: inland port on the Anduin
R: built on seven hills
MT: built onn seven levels delved into the hill
R: able general--Belisarius
MT: able commanders
R: Justinian suspicious of Belisarius
MT: Denethor suspicious of commanders
Both have an early calvary reconnaissance that retreats to the city gate
R: Hadrian's Tomb a strategic point
MT: House of the Stewards on the Street of Silence scene of significant events
Both the Ostrogoths and the Armies of Mordor used siege towers and battling rams drawn by great beasts (oxen and mumaki^l, respectively)
Sorties by defenders
R: Pope (deposed on discovery) in communication with the Goths
MT: Denethor (dies soon after discovery) in communication with Sauron
R: Cavalry relief
MT: Rohannim relief
R: 3000 Byzantine troops supplemented city forces against 50,000 Goths
MT: 3000 Outlander troops supplemented city forces against vast number of Sauron's forces
R: Successful defense led to Byzantine presence in Italy through the 9th C.
MT: Suceesful defence eventually led to reestablishment of the King.
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:18 pm |
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Despite the parallels between the Sieges of Minas Tirith and that of Rome by the Ostrogoths (some of them admittedly a little forced), it is unlikely that JRRT consciously modelled his account on the Siege and relief of Minas Tirith on any actual historical siege.
Falborn :[...] although he did remark on visiting Venice late in life that the city looked like Minas Tirith or Pelegir might look.
Similarly, I don't think too much should be made of JRRT's light-hearted identification of 'Venice' as Gondor:[...] Thank you very much for your letter.... It came while I was away, in Gondor (sc. Venice), as a change from the North Kingdom, or I would have answered before.
Letter 168, (1955). It is hard to imagine Venice as resembling the mountain-city of Minas Tirith .
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Lord_Morningstar
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Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:24 pm |
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I see few parallels between the sieges of Constantinople and Minas Tirith. On a basic level, Constantinople fell while MT held. Also, there was a strong naval element in the siege of Constantinople while ships were only used as transports to bring relief for MT. Constantinople was poorly defended for a city of its size and power with little outside aid while MT had every available man and strong out companies. The only similarities I can see is the use of siege engines (cannon and grond) and the varied nature of the attacking army (the Turks attacked with Bashi-Bazouks, then Siaphai, the Janissaries).
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Dandalf_the_White
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Posted: Sat Nov 1, 2003 1:53 pm |
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I think that while it is erroneous to explicitly say that any one civilization was the inspiration for a Middle Earth civilization, I think that Byzantium looks like a strong candidate for one of the Gondorian influences.
Clearly, Tolkien based Theoden's role in the Battle of the Pellenor Fields, if not the entire siege itself, on Theodorid's role in the Siege of Constantinople. Likewise, Gondor bears a strong resemblance to Byzantine history, especially the collapse of the Western Empire (Arnor) and the continued existence of an embattled Eastern Empire (Gondor) against various "dark" forces from the east. Regardless of modern sensibilities, Tolkien would have considered the non-Christians at least a dark shade of gray. And given his long view of history, it makes a lot more sense that the 1,000-year conflict between Christiandom and Islam would be an inspiration for his story than WWII (though I do think elements of the Gondor-Mordor story, such as the Watchful Peace, are from modern British-German history). I also think there is an intresting similarity between the coastal Numenorean outposts of the Second Age and the Crusader states founded in the Levant.
Acknowledging these close similarities does not, of course, mean that they are allegorical. While they are probably a basis of comparison, historically, the Byzantines did not fare nearly as well as the Gondorians. Also, when Tolkien makes the Venice reference, I think that he is only joking, and if it means anything at all, he is referring to mild architectural similarities, further strengthening the idea that there is a strong post-Romance influence in Gondorian culture.
The Byzantine Empire's interaction with Greece also is reminiscent of Gondorian interaction with the Elves. The older, higher culture, is seen reflected in the fading grandeur of the successor. While the inspiration of Elvish religion is clearly Germanic in nature, I have always felt that there was a strong Greek element, not in their culture, but in the way they acted towards other cultures, namely their ability to teach and propensity to disdain, and the strong desire of other cultures to be more like them (especially the Romans and their Byzantine successors).
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-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Sat Nov 1, 2003 7:52 pm |
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Dandalf_the_White :Clearly, Tolkien based Theoden's role in the Battle of the Pellenor Fields, if not the entire siege itself, on Theodorid's role in the Siege of Constantinople.
Clearly JRRT did not  . As has been made clear in earlier posts in this thread, Theodorid (son of Alaric), died at the Battle of the Cataulanian Plain (Châlons) - his realm was in Aquitaine and Spain and he never fought before the walls of Constantinople. Considered argument shows that there are insufficient parallels between the Sieges of Constantinople (particularly the final siege of 1453 AD) and that of Minas Tirith to suggest JRRT drew any details from this specific siege, as opposed to sieges in general.
While it seems highly likely that JRRT (perhaps subconsciously) WAS influenced by Jordanes' account of the battle (again, as explored in the earlier posts), to say that JRRT 'based Theoden's role in the Battle of the Pellenor Fields, if not the entire siege itself, on Theodorid's role [at Châlons]' is 'over-egging the cake' and not supported by a close examination of the events of that battle (Châlons) or the account by Jordanes.
[Edit: I am afraid the 'smileys' in this post were deliberately chosen to be annoying as a rebuke for not reading the earlier posts in this thread... ]
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Dandalf_the_White
Rider of the Mark
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Posted: Sat Nov 1, 2003 9:57 pm |
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Whichever battle it was, Tolkien seems to have borrowed heavily from it. The point I was trying to make was that Tolkien based that segment of the battle upon Theoden's namesake.
I think that the rest of my post stands apart from that, as it really has little to do with Theoden.
And you might want to go easy with the smileys. They're rather patronizing.
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jallan
Rider of the Mark
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Posted: Sun Nov 2, 2003 4:05 pm |
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From letter 254, on Charles Williams:[quote]I actively disliked his Arthurian-Byzantine mythology; ...[/quote]I cannot claim to know exactly what Tolkien disliked here.
I think I recall somewhere reading that Tolkien disliked Williams' idealizing the Byzantine empire as an image of the kingdom of God on earth when a look at Byzantine history and politics indicates anything but that. But I could be remembering soneone else's criticism of Williams.
Pagans in general are villains in medieval romances, confusedly identified (sometimes simultaneously) as Irish, Danes, Slavs, Turks, Arabs and Moors, all supposedly idol-worshippers of Mahommed, Cahu, Apollin and Tervagant. Joseph of Arimathea meets worshippers of Mohammed in Britain.
Someone had to be the bad guys and facts didn't matter much. Though one finds almost never a bad word said about the illustrious Saladin.
Shippey's citation from Jornandes cannot be denied, especially when we now that Tolkien fell in love with Gothic as a language and Jornandes is almost the only source for Gothic history and that these Goths were great horsemen (like the Rohirrim) while the Old English were not especially noted as horsemen.
There is also the strong likelihood that Tolkien based the appearance of his Orcs on the squat, flat-faced, bow-legged, barely human-looking Huns (or at least so they are described in histories of the time).
This is Tolkien's period and place: early medieval Europe, not Asia.
The western empire fell also.
But it was restored by Theodoric the Goth who under the name of Dietrich von Berne is the King Arthur of medieval German heroic legend. In legend he becomes the exiled true heir to the throne of Verona who finally gains the crown when its occupant, his wicked uncle, dies.
This is a source for Aragorn, if you need a source. I don't think you particularly need one. But it is closer than anything you will find Byzantine history.
The historical Theodoric founded what might have become a new western Roman empire had things been a little different.
Of course in some ways Arnor is also the western empire and Gondor the eastern empire, if you wish to look at things allegorically in a different way.
I think it more accurate to think that Tolkien threw all kinds of Germanic and Roman history and legend into the soup and then fished out what was to his taste and did not always consciously regard what he fished out.
Minas Tirith also resembles the Persian capital city of Ecbatana (the modern Hamadan) described by Herodotus as being fortified by seven concentric walls.
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Dandalf_the_White
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Posted: Sun Nov 2, 2003 6:04 pm |
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I think it more accurate to think that Tolkien threw all kinds of Germanic and Roman history and legend into the soup and then fished out what was to his taste and did not always consciously regard what he fished out.
Aye, this is the point I unsuccessfully attempted to make. LOTR is a melting pot of European lore, of which Theoden/Theodorid is one element. Of course, now I am also thinking that Theodorid is the inspiration for Theodred too. Must stop this line of thought before I go off on an endless tangent...
Minas Tirith also resembles the Persian capital city of Ecbatana (the modern Hamadan) described by Herodotus as being fortified by seven concentric walls.
Nice insight!
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