The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and Tolkien - The One Ring

by **The,real,Maeglin** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:48 am

Ah so you wouldnt mind a drizzt on my arm aswell...<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0> You got any pictures of your Tattoo Matrim?<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>

by **Matrim** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:00 pm

Here ya go. Pic of the Drizzt Tattoo <a target=new href="http://www.picturemehot.com/FetchImageJPG.asp?ImageType=P&ImageFormat=H&ImageID=60766">http://www.picturemehot.com/FetchImageJPG.asp?ImageType=P&ImageFormat=H&ImageID=60766</a>

by **The,real,Maeglin** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:59 pm

Thanks a lot Matrim<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> Sure looks great, making me all interested for myself to get one<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> Again thanks and sorry to everyone for going offtopic, but i just was to interested to let it slip<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>

by **Celebriel_Esgaledhel** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:11 pm

great tattoo! I'm thinking of getting one, myself (though not of that char!)

by **theduffster** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:44 pm

Back to the subject, <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> I'm reading The Naked Empire right now. It's pretty good. Goodkind has Richard preaching sermons about freedom, and the right to live your own life, a bit too much, I'd say. Some characters who've been missing for the last few books are finally back in! Goodkind tends to re-use certain phrases way too much. He spends far too much time explaining what already happened. There's no "Book Eight in the Sword of Truth" subtitle, so someone could innocently pick it up and read, not knowing there were 7 books leading up to this. They could get away without having to read them probably, since there's so much time wasted on explaining why things are happening the way they are. But it annoys the heck out of me! Back to tattoo discussions. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>

by **Matrim** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:52 pm

Thank god I am going back to Guam before I transfer from my ship. Were currently in Japan and they have exactly 0 decent fantasy books for sale right now. Ill pick up Naked Empire as soon as I can and read it on my looooooonnnnggg plane ride back over the Pacific. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> (Just a little more on the tattoo subject, I plan on getting a Matrim pic from the WoT Card game tattooed on the back of my calf. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> )

by **Sardo_Solarion** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 2:11 pm

Hmm, where to start, wellllll. First I know Terry Goodkind, he lived on MDI (in MAINE, that's right way up north, past Boston where most people think the world ends <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> ) Now he just summers here but anyway. One reason he writes a lot about women being abused and raped is because here in Maine it's a problem most people try to ignore, it's a pet peev of his. Second the level of graphic detail is very good and ABSOLUTLY neccesary. Face it, how many of us read adventure novels and don't think to hard when the hero is cutting his way through the enemy, about what is actually happening? TG forces us to truly comprehend what is happening when the hero's conquer and win the day, it keeps us firmly rooted in the world he has created. Even the sex scenes add their flavor of reality to his world, besides it is a broad audiance he is writting to. I'm married and I still like those scenes <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> which are very good at infusing the story with emotion by showing us something we all recognize as a building block for recognizing other emotions he uses. Even if it's embarassing to some it IS a feeling we are all familliar with. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> And oh yeah Naked Empire kicks #$% he definatly picks up the pace and starts bringing all the characters old and new back together again.

by **Meril36** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:15 pm

I love the Sword of Truth series. Soul of the Fire did go rather slowly, but I still thought it was passable. And I loved Faith of the Fallen. That one made me suspect that TG has read the Fountainhead, or another book of Ayn Rand's.

by **Hobbituk** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:25 am

Well, after "Naked Empire" I am still in two minds about Goodkind. First of all, before I read it I did say that if it was not a dramatic improvement on that pile of garbage that was "Pillars of Creation" then I would be abandoning the series for good...After reading "Naked Empire" I have decided that it was good enough that I would continue to read on. However, it was not perfect by any means. Neither was it one of Goodkind's best. The whole plotline with Richard seemed irrelevant. All these things happening in the south just seem rather small when what we're really interested in is Richard Vs Jagang...not these new baddies (who were apparantly there all along, he just forgot to tell us...Narev, Sebastian and so on) that he introduces book by book. The whole "anti-pacifist" slant also left me with a sour taste in my mouth..and not because im a pacifist (im not) but because of the vicious way he seemed to be approaching them. My other criticism is that we don't get in Richard's head enough. Goodkind does not write from Richard's point of view nearly as much as he used to. I suspect this is because he has made Richard too "mysterious"...every time he bloody says something everyone around him gasps. I want to get back inside his head like we were in WFR and SoT! But there was some great moments too! The storyline with Zedd, the army and the returning old characters made me smile each time. Particularly the "rescue" scene...I thought that was brilliantly done. So, disappointed that this was not back to the standards he set with the first book...but happy that it was much MUCH better than the last one!

by **Sardo_Solarion** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:12 pm

I'm opening up a can of worms! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> I think one reason he took such a stance on pacifism is because of the recent events while writting the book, namely the Iraq war where the pacifist French made their stance on Iraq clear.

by **Hobbituk** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:43 pm

I think that was pretty clear. In fact I think it was too clear. I'm getting fed-up of Goodkind feeling he needs to bang us over the head constantly with whatever ideology he feels he should promote in every single book (at least since Totw...if it existed in that and it's predecessors then it was nicely subtle). At least this time we didn't have a load of diatribe about how good a job the secret service are doing (<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0>) but I'd rather an author of fantasy novels focus on the plotline and the characters than whatever politics he feels like promoting this month. I don't mean to sound like im having a go, obviously if you know Terry as you say then it must be quite difficult when folks are moaning...But If I could say one thing to him it would be to plead for him to bring back the feel, the tension and the mood of the first book. And stop preaching at us! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>

by **Sardo_Solarion** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:50 am

I toataly agree with you. I just wanted people to understand why he does some of the things he does. Hopefully his next book will be more like the first one. As agravating as his writting can be I still like reading his stuff.

by **Hobbituk** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:45 am

One other thing (If you dont mind<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>), I was just reading a "Web Chat" transcript he did on the Official site a few days ago. He came across to me as being quite arrogant and dismissive of his fans. He also reacted very badly to any perceived criticism and any fans who saw hidden-meanings beyond his intentions. Each time he thought someone was having a go (particularly the ones who said that they hadn't enjoyed the more recent books) he responded by saying that.. a)It was a problem with THEM, not his writing b)All his millions of readers prove that he is right c)Since they have read the book they must have enjoyed it and were just reacting badly to the politics. Please tell me he isn't really this arrogant! Surely he can spot the flaws in his own books? Thanks<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>

by **Sardo_Solarion** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:15 am

As a fledgling author myself I think he is being more defensive than arrogant when it comes to percieved attacks. He's actually very pleasing to talk to.

by **Hobbituk** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:41 am

I am also something of a fledgling author which is why his defensiveness surprises me. When people point out how I can improve and where they think I am going wrong I am genuinely grateful for their input. And of course no-one sees flaws in my writing than I do. I was wondering whether the success he has had makes him arrogant...thanks for saying otherwise. I read WFR when I was about 13 and for a while Terry was one of my most favourite authors..I hate it when a childhood hero is tarnished. He does seem like a person who it would be great to have a chat with about anything!

by **Sardo_Solarion** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:28 am

It has been a while since I met him so he could very well have changed and it wouldn't surprise me at all though I hope he isn't to far gone. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> What do you write? I'm writting a return of king Arthur story but I've been published for two of my poems.

by **Amarie** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:27 pm

Heh. I've not finished the 3rd book. I'm bored with it. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0> Is Jagang a persistent villain throughout the series?

by **Hobbituk** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 3:29 pm

((Currently im working on a story set in the area where I live (West Yorkshire, England) during the 18th Century (or thereabouts) but which is at the same time a fantasy novel and so features many mythical creatures and folk stories of the period. Great fun...particularly enjoying the research<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> )) Jagang is indeed the main villain throughout the series...even more so than Darken Rahl. He IS an interesting villain I suppose...certainly scary (the dreamwalker stuff). I still think Darken Rahl was a better bad guy...much creepier.

by **tolkienpurist** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:26 pm

Hey - as a (somewhat former) Terry Goodkind fan, I just wanted to bump this thread for more thoughts. I loved Goodkind all the way through FotF; although Tolkien is my alltime favorite author, I thought Goodkind definitely beat Tolkien in some respects. Then the last two books and what seemed to me to be his increasing arrogance (agree strongly with: One other thing (If you dont mind), I was just reading a "Web Chat" transcript he did on the Official site a few days ago. He came across to me as being quite arrogant and dismissive of his fans. He also reacted very badly to any perceived criticism and any fans who saw hidden-meanings beyond his intentions.) happened, and I'm not sure what to think. I do like the first six, but I'm sick of his using Richard as a means of giving us lengthy lectures on his ideology of choice, AND THEN literally attacking fans verbally (as he did on that webchat) for daring to suggest that this is not universally enjoyed by "true" fans. I just wanted to tell him, Terry, at this point we're enjoying the characters despite you, rather than because of you. By which I mean, we love the characters as they were written originally, so we still care about them and want to see what happens, but not because of the way you're writing them or acting about them now. Grrr... - TP

by **Hobbituk** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:46 am

Yep, well said TP. I haven't gone back and reread any of the books more than once since Soul of the Fire I think and that really speaks volumes about the dip in quality since I'm the sort of person who rereads books until they fall to bits normally. You should see the state of my Tolkien books. I had to buy some new ones last year. The problem with Goodkind is that despite the fact that so many of his fans are being turned off by his writing, the characters he set up in the first few books are so compelling that we go back to the series just to find out what happens to them. In much the same way that Star Wars fans continue to look forward to the prequel trilogy movies. Until Goodkind sees a substantial drop in book sales, it's unlikely that he will care to drop his preachy, irritating tone and writing a decent story. (Incidentally, I have just reread my review of "Naked Empire" and in retrospect I think I was too sentimental about it. My memory now is of a bad book with one or two good bits)

by **Rebecca** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:40 am

Yeah, I agree with you two. I loved his first 4 books, but after the Temple of the Winds I wasn't as drawn to them. I'm still going to read the next ones, but just because I have to find out what happens. Good way of putting it tp, that I want to know what happens to the characters despite Goodkind's writing. For me, the biggest indicator that I'm losing interest was that I was looking forward to the latest installment of Harry Potter more than the newest Sword of Truth book. THey came out within a month of each other, and I own both but haven't bothered to go back and reread the newest SoT book. And I reread most of my books. Ah well, we can only hope they'll get better. He was contracted to write 10 books, so we may have some hope left.

by **tolkienpurist** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:53 am

Really? I thought that only this next one was under contract with TOR. Well, he essentially indicated in that webchat that he had no intention of changing, so I guess that we'll just have to tolerate the books to see what ultimately happens with Richard and Kahlan (MUST know how it plays out with Shota when they finally have a child - he's been foreshadowing this since book II, and going into book IX we still don't know!) Essentially, I haven't read Ayn Rand, so maybe I shouldn't be talking, but I'm concerned about this brand of "objectivism" that he describes. Please jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me to be a way in which you can give sanction to your beliefs by claiming that they are clearly the morally right once (i.e. those who disagree with you are taking an immoral position). If that's not the way that the philosophy itself plays out, I'm sorry, but that's the way that Goodkind was making it sound. He also seems to LOVE annoying his fans by making provocative statements: - Drug users are accessories to murderers?!?! This is apparently because a daughter's friend was murdered by drug dealers who mistook her for someone else. I think we can all agree that those drug dealers are heinous murderers, but that does not make all drug users morally equivalent to murderers, or even their accessories (side note: I am very much against drug usage, but I do not like his system of moral equivalency) - For those of us who thought that his latest four books were not as good as the previous four, he had this to say: "Don't be fooled. The assertion made by these detractors is a note wrapped around a brick thrown through the window. These people are not fans. There are hundreds if not thousands of fantasy books that fulfill their professed taste in books. Why would they continue to read books they claim are bad? Because they hate that my novels exists. Values arouse hatred in these people. Their goal is not to enjoy life, but to destroy" So, just to let you guys know, we are not fans of his. We hate that his novels exist. Our goal in life is to destroy. And values arose our hatred. That was directed at all those who found his latest books "preachy" and/or found his latest four not as good as his earliest four. As someone who has bought seven of the eight books, this leaves me seriously questioning whether or not I should have done so, and definitely makes me want to sell them on eBay. Or even put them up as freewares - I mean, if values arose my hatred...lol To someone who asked whether he'd write a book, and get all his ideals and philosophy out of his system so he wouldn't be presenting them at the expense of the story (side note: I do understand why Goodkind was angered at the tone of this question, but his response was far more caustic in tone than it probably needed to be) --- His answer turned out to be too long to be worth copying and posting. But go to the official site and read it - it just shows how egotistical he has become. He truly has a lot to learn from his own character - I cannot see Richard ever acting or talking in the way that Goodkind has started to do --- He also went on to explain an absolute prohibition on fan fiction and such - for legal reasons, he said. He might want to take a look at Rowlings - her camp allows it, in fact, feels that it's a form of flattery - and her IP rights have not been prejudiced by it. Once again, I felt, a surefire way of driving away some of his fans. Sorry for the long excerpts, but the last thing I needed to vent about: This was his answer on his opinion on taxes. I find this very troublesome. I am no socialist or even a Democrat, but he needs to rethink what he's saying...ALL citizens use the criminal courts, if you will - unless he'd rather have criminals running around on the street. And if he thinks the government can continue to run in the way he describes, he'd better think twice - it'll collapse for lack of funding. Finally, if he's not seeing the social benefit (forget about any sort of moral benefit) derived from not having people on the streets (or as few as possible) and not starving - I'm not sure if I wish to embrace his philosophy of the world, or run from it. answer: citizens should all pay for the defense of their life from foreigh and domestic threats. Funds for goverment services, for example the courts, should be collected from those who use them. All welfare should come from those who volunteer their own money, not the money of others, not the victums of theft ( the tax payer). men should not be required, at gun point, to "sacrifice" for other men. If you are told, at gun point, to give a group some of you property so then can have it for their own use and you are required to work for them for no compensation, that is called slavey. The present system of taxation, forced work for no payment, is notyhing but dressed up slavery. Yet another example of sacrfice for the greater good - the greater good meani (missing) - TP

by **Rebecca** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:54 pm

Tp, I used to post on that SoT messageboard, and a good while back they said he was contracted to write 10 books. But that was awhile ago, and could have changed. You got me curious, so I looked at his webchat transcript. Goodness, his response to that question (about writing a separate book to get it out of his system) was rather nasty! I found his response interesting, especially this part: Translation: Will you please chage that way you think and wirte, stop using your mind, stop being an invdividual and instead start writing books like every other hackneyed Tolkien clone on the fantasy shelves. Answer: NO He is also quite full of himself: Rather than simply reading and enjoying the many books available that they like, they spend their time railing against the one author who is different. What I have done with my work has irrevocably changed the face of fantasy. In so doing I've raised the standards. I have not only injected thought into a tired empty genre, but, more importantly, I've transcended it showing what more it can be-and is so doing spread my readship to completely new groups who dont like and wont ready typical fantasy. Agents and editors are screaming for more books like mine. And of course he goes on to say that no one else can write books like his because (among other things) they just can't "grasp the essence" of his books. My true fans have chosen to think, to embrace all that life is. So since I don't like his newest books as much, I don't embrace life or think? That was a really long chat- I'm pretty sure I read it before, but I'd forgotten it, thanks for bringing it to my attention again.

by **tolkienpurist** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:17 pm

Rebecca - No problem. I could NOT believe he would talk in that manner in a chat to be posted on his official site. It's truly a disgrace to both him and those who choose to call themselves his fans. I wanted to quote the excerpts you quoted as well, but felt that my response was getting too long and quote heavy. Thanks for posting them. He also seems to have some sort of grudge against Tolkien (this is just me reading into things I've seen) - although he doesn't state it explicitly, because it would probably be suicidal. My guess is that most of his fans are also Tolkien fans. He just seems to have a negative attitude towards LOTR, which is interesting, because he's never read it, according to at least one interview that I saw. The reason that you might not be embracing life or thinking is clear: the answer is APPLES <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> I fully believe in objectivism, which tells me that oranges are inferior. Sorry, couldn't resist when I saw your signature <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-devil.gif"border=0>

by **Rebecca** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:38 pm

<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0> Umm....I think that about covers my response for now!

by **Hobbituk** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:31 pm

I agree with you both...how could I not? I cannot imagine anyone I know or have ever even met arguing that these far out positions which he takes are anything other than completely looney, impractical and idiotic. He also went on to explain an absolute prohibition on fan fiction Was this where he used the analogy that it was like people coming in to his house without permission and eating his food, watching his TV, sitting in his chairs.etc? Which makes me think that presumably reading his books is the equivalent of looking in through his windows! Actually, I dislike fanfiction...but for an author that is a very poor analogy! Goodkind WAS contracted for ten books and given that he still manages to sell quite a lot of books, I can't see that changing.

by **tolkienpurist** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:55 pm

I believe that that is what he said. Personally, I also dislike fan fiction, and can see why he would dislike it even more as an author. It can definitely turn - well, interesting. However, he could just have said it more nicely was my only quarrel there. Also, the legal reason is not dispositive, and I was annoyed that he tried to point to that as enough of an explanation...

by **Hobbituk** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:56 am

While we're on the subject of webchats, there was something else that annoyed me. When someone else asked about the possibilty of a film being made of the books he responded by saying, "It is not my reponsibility to entertain the lazy or illiterate." I couldn't believe that he of all people would say something like that. After all, he claims to have suffered from severe dyslexia for much of his life so surely he can empathise with people who cannot pick up one of his books to read it...it doesn't mean that they are either lazy or illiterate. Then he went on to say something about he wouldn't allow someone to try and "make a name for himself" by adapting his books but might come to an agreement with someone like Spielberg....yeah, very clever Terry, don't wanna burn all your financial bridges eh?

by **tolkienpurist** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:35 pm

It's interesting how many of us have had frustrations to vent on this thread in a row, but no one has come to TG's defense. Telling, don't you think? The sad thing was that until he went on the offensive against various groups of his fan base and decided to try to convert the world to "objectivism" through his books and through vociferously attacking those who disagree, I was a huge fan of his, even considered him a role model. I have a journal entry from a while back in which I cited Tolkien and him as inspirations and role models. Now, I'm sorry that I wrote his name in the same sentence as Tolkien's. - TP

by **Ellienor** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:04 am

I haven't read past the second book yet, but for all the annoyances discussed in this thread at the author personally, (which sound warranted BTW), the guy IS inventive and creative. I am surprised and entertained (which is unusual in this genre and why I don't often read it anymore). However, the depiction of the love between Kahlan and Richard <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0>

The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and Tolkien - The One Ring

Terry Goodkind "Sword of Truth" serie

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