pippintk
Ranger of the North
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2001 2:31 pm |
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As the title says:
Denethor: Raving-Mad Lunatic Who Obviously Has Way Too Much Time on His Hands (the palantir), or A Poor Old Guy Who Is Obviously At His Wit's End About His Poor Old Dead Kid???
I opt for the former
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Pippintk-
"Confusticate and bebother these dwarves."-Bilbo
Fabulous Founder of the Hobbits of the World...Unite! Guild
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Lomedhel
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2001 11:18 pm |
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Neither. Just a guy who think too much of his power and feares for Gondor and then driven mad by Sauron and Boromirs dead...
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Túor
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 5:36 am |
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Poor guy really. Born into terrible times as steward of Gondor. Has to fear for his city, loses part of his sanity due to the effects of Sauron throught the Palantir, loses his eldest son and thinks he loses his only remaining son and then commits suicide. Poor chap, really.
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Denethor
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 6:01 pm |
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Yes, Denethor was a tragic figure - I wish everyone would stop attacking my namesake! 
With regard to the palantir, it was not a case of Denethor "having too much time on his hands". He used the palantir for the benefit of Gondor (in many ways it certainly helped him find out information). By using the palantir he ended up sacrificing his own physical and mental well-being for the sake of his realm (remember that his use of the palantir caused him to age quicker than he otherwise would have).
He was also one of a very small number of people (along with Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel and company) who actually understood the sheer danger that Sauron posed to Middle-Earth (and unlike those others he didn't have much faith in the possibility of the Ring's destruction). By contrast, people like Faramir were actually 'shielded' by their ignorance of the true danger. Denethor's conclusion that Gondor was going to lose was therefore quite a logical one. In this light his depression is certainly understandable.
Then of course there was his family problems. His wife died young, and he had just lost his eldest son. He was then faced with the prospect of his other son dying. This alone would have been enough to cause severe emotional trauma.
Finally, many people dislike Denethor because of the way he treated Gandalf. His treatment of Gandalf is actually quite understandable. Remember that "Thorongil" (who had been Denethor's arch-rival) was very friendly towards Gandalf. It is therefore not surprising that Denethor should be suspicious of the wizard's political intentions.
With all the above factors playing a role, it is obvious that Denethor was a character under IMMENSE stress. Without a doubt, Denethor is one of the most tragic figures in the whole of the LOTR.
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Lomedhel
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 11:34 pm |
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Well, our Denethor here is as wise as the other but 100X more reasonable...
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Khorazir
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 3:09 am |
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And I think he's very right in analysing his namesake's (or alter ego's?) character. Finally someone who does not simply throw Denethor into the same box with the other LotR villains. He's not evil, actually he's one of the good guys, and a very fascinating one, too. Hope they'll get his character right in the movies (yes, I'm greatly concerned about how his portrayal might turn out: along the lines of "Raving-Mad Lunatic").
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Khorazir
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 3:15 am |
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By the way (forgot to add this in my last post), I'm currently painting a pic of him (so I had to give some thought to his character and the - hopefully appropriate - portrayal of the Steward of Gondor). I'll try to finish it over the weekend and have it posted at TORC. Hope to see your comments on it.
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Gormegil
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 8:38 am |
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Muhahhahahahahah......
That fool Denethor was the perfect stooge for Mordor! He played just the part we made for him. Let his fate be a warning to all of you who oppose Mordor!!
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Annael
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 9:07 am |
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I think one big strike against Denethor was the fact that he was not going to give up the 'throne' of Gondor to Aragorn. He hated Aragorn from way back, although his father didn't.
I think Denethor in his heart thought he was trying to do the best for Gondor. Of course I think that Denethor thought he was Gondor, so anything he did for himself he would also see as doing it for Gondor.
Pride before the fall. Pride led Denethor from doing right. Who is to blame for Denethor's pride?
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.gif)
River_Daughter
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 9:43 am |
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I blame a mid-life crisis ordeal.
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theredweasel
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 12:12 pm |
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I think Denethor's attitude towards Aragorn is justified. Afterall, the stewards have ruled Gondor for 100's of years. They are king in all but name only. Would you give up power so easily if you were in that position? The kings of the past had become part of the folk-lore of Gondor. Denethor had spent his life taking care of the city. Why should he let a stranger who (in his mind) had never set foot in or done anything for Gondor suddenly become its ruler just because of his blood line?
Regarding the palantir, Denethor did not sacrifice willingly "his own physical and mental well-being for the sake of the realm" as Denethor (the poster) suggests. The palantir is like a drug. Once you start using it, it's very hard to stop. Neither is Denethor to blame for using the palantir. He falls into the trap unwittingly.
Finally, as for his dislike of Gandalf, I think this also is understandable. There is some truth in Saruman's mocking description of Gandalf as "so condescending and so very kind". Gandalf often speaks very arrogantly and condescendingly to others and is very presumptious. This obviously would offend people in positions of power as it did Theoden and Saruman and indeed Denethor. In fact, if Gandalf were living in normal times and not times of a crisis, I think that he might have to do some work on his 'people skills'. I would say that I'd find Gandalf annoying sometimes myself so I sympathize with Denethor in this respect.
There's a personality clash between Gandalf and Denethor which Denethor handles very well I think. He doesn't let his pride get in the way of the well being of his kingdom saying that "it would be foolish not to seek (Gandalf's) aid."
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theredweasel
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 12:12 pm |
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I think Denethor's attitude towards Aragorn is justified. Afterall, the stewards have ruled Gondor for 100's of years. They are king in all but name only. Would you give up power so easily if you were in that position? The kings of the past had become part of the folk-lore of Gondor. Denethor had spent his life taking care of the city. Why should he let a stranger who (in his mind) had never set foot in or done anything for Gondor suddenly become its ruler just because of his blood line?
Regarding the palantir, Denethor did not sacrifice willingly "his own physical and mental well-being for the sake of the realm" as Denethor (the poster) suggests. The palantir is like a drug. Once you start using it, it's very hard to stop. Neither is Denethor to blame for using the palantir. He falls into the trap unwittingly.
Finally, as for his dislike of Gandalf, I think this also is understandable. There is some truth in Saruman's mocking description of Gandalf as "so condescending and so very kind". Gandalf often speaks very arrogantly and condescendingly to others and is very presumptious. This obviously would offend people in positions of power as it did Theoden and Saruman and indeed Denethor. In fact, if Gandalf were living in normal times and not times of a crisis, I think that he might have to do some work on his 'people skills'. I would say that I'd find Gandalf annoying sometimes myself so I sympathize with Denethor in this respect.
There's a personality clash between Gandalf and Denethor which Denethor handles very well I think. He doesn't let his pride get in the way of the well being of his kingdom saying that "it would be foolish not to seek (Gandalf's) aid."
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Annael
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 12:43 pm |
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So you are saying the position of Steward meant nothing more than the next line of kings? Faramir didn't seem to think so. It was pride and arrogance that led Denethor and Boromir to their dooms.
The rightful king is the rightful king. The Stewards all took oaths to give up control to the rightful king, and Denethor would have broken that oath. Denethor would have betrayed Gondor, the same way he would have betrayed Faramir, if given the chance!
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Khamul'sshadow
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 1:16 pm |
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I can't say that I agee with you, Annael. I read somewhere Boromir
once questioned his father about why he didn't simply proclaim
himself king, given it had been almost 1000 years since the death of
Earnur. Denethor replied, quite nobly I think, that it would take
more than a few thousand years to establish a "true" king in Gondor, thus indicating his loyalty to the line of Elendil. He was indeed of
the opinion that he knew what was best for his country and was
obviously unsure of Aragorn. But I don't think this means he wouldn't
have given up power if he had lived to see the end of the War of the
Rings.
I agree with you , redweasal, about Gandalf's People skills. I think
SNW said it best that Mithrandir was " always running around shouting
at people!"
For myself, I always found Denethor to be one of the most tragic
figures in LOTR, and also one of its most compelling.
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Monolith
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 4:28 pm |
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Denethor lost his father's love to Aragorn (in his mind) and discerned from afar who Thorongil was. Then he lost his son, who he loved dearly to a "fool's errand" with Aragorn.
And he wants to live in the noble city of his birth, and pass on his heritage to his son, like virtually every man: "I would have things as they were in all the days of my life...and in the days of my long-fathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me".
And he has a certain legitamate concern with lineage: "Even were his claim proved to me [which it hadn't] still he comes but of the line of Isildur." Aragorn deftly sidesteps this concern by saving the city and being healer-guy, and having the people go hog-wild for him. I'm not saying he wasn't the rightful king, just that he didn't have to do much paperwork.
Weas, your losing me when you compare the Palantír to a drug.
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Annael
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 4:39 pm |
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shadow,
Wasn't Isildur a rightful heir to the throne? Who was Denethor to decide which son wasn't a rightful heir? Or do you agree with Denethor that Aragorn's bloodlines were not sufficient to be king?
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Khamul'sshadow
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 5:07 pm |
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Annael : Yes, Aragorn was the rightful heir, but I don't think
Denethor either knew this definitively or didn't want to recognize it.
In regard to "who was he...", he was the legitimate Steward of Gondor,
in title and in fact the rightful ruler of the realm of Gondor in the
last stages of the Third Age. Those with great power often transgress
their mandate, often with the best intentions. Such was the case with
Denethor. While his policies led to his own madness, I'm not of the
opinion that we should hurl insults at him for doing his best in
a critical situation ( which as leader, for him, was both personal
and political ).
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Annael
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 5:37 pm |
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These are Denethor's own words from The Pyre of Denethor, But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.
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Khamul'sshadow
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 6:02 pm |
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Indeed, but Denethor was in total madness by this point. I not
completely dismissing your argument by any means, Annael, I'm just
suggesting we look at the totality of his life. No impartial court
in the world would condemn Denethor in his death throes - innocent
by reason of insanity, in the case of your quotation. However, I
will certainly concede that it is a rather damaging piece of circumstancial evidence that Denethor perhaps would never have been
willing to relinquish the throne of Gondor.
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Annael
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 6:12 pm |
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Yah, I was thinking the insanity thing as I was typing it. Then again, he never liked Aragorn/Thorongil, he may have given up the throne to someone else of the line of Isildur in a more sane state of mind, but he had something personal against Aragorn.
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Khamul'sshadow
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 6:42 pm |
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Agreed. 
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Denethor
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 6:42 pm |
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Denethor knew more or less what he was getting into with regard to the palantir (so he didn't really fall into the trap "unwittingly"). He knew that using the palantir would cause mental strain (this was strain independent of his struggles with Sauron), yet he decided that he needed the knowledge that the palantir would provide. That is what I meant when I said that he ended up sacrificing his own physical and mental well-being for the sake of his realm. Indeed he actually used the palantir with great skill for more than three decades, to the benefit of Gondor. The following passage from Unfinished Tales gives a good indication of what was going through Denethor's mind with regard to the palantir...
He was proud, but this was by no means personal - he loved Gondor and its people and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time. And in the second place the Anor-stone was his by right, and nothing but expediency was against his use of it in his grave anxieties. ("The Palantiri")
As for Aragorn's claim to the throne, Denethor does in fact have a point. Denethor was after all a "Steward of the House of Anarion" - not a "Steward of the House of Isildur". Remember that Gondor was traditionally of the opinion that the Heir of Isildur should rule Arnor only, while the Heir of Anarion should rule Gondor. It is therefore quite likely that Denethor interpreted his duty of governing "until the king returns" as meaning that he was to govern until the Heir of Anarion "returned" - not the Heir of Isildur. There was also actually a precedent of Gondor refusing to give its crown to the Heir of Isildur - Arvedui's claims to the throne of Gondor were refused, and the crown of Gondor ended up going to Earnil.
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Annael
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 7:01 pm |
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So Denethor, what are you trying to say? Do you believe that Denethor was right about denying the throne to Aragorn? Do you believe that Denethor had the right to refuse Aragorn's claim. Remeber that Earnil was of the royal line. Since there was no other decendent of Elendil, I believe that Aragorn's claim unchallengeable. How about you?
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Denethor
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 7:27 pm |
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While I think Aragorn certainly had a very good claim to the throne of Gondor, I don't think the issue was cut and dried (this is in contrast to his undisputable claim to the throne of Arnor). As I said before, there were historical disputes between Arnor and Gondor regarding the Heirs of Isildur. The Stewards were legitimate rulers of Gondor in that they were the viceregal representatives of the House of Anarion. I also suspect that the Steward did technically have the right to refuse Aragorn's claim - after all, Faramir (as the last Ruling Steward) did get the people of Minas Tirith to 'approve' Aragorn's claim before Aragorn was allowed to take up the kingship. Perhaps if Denethor had lived then some sort of compromise could have been worked out whereby Denethor was allowed to keep his position until he died, with Aragorn then taking over.
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Annael
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 7:55 pm |
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Are you serious Denethor? ***Shakes head in disbelief***
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Denethor
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 8:05 pm |
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I was actually playing devils advocate by arguing along legal technicalities.
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Annael
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 8:14 pm |
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I could just see it, Aragorn sitting beneath his kingly banner, outside the walls of Gondor waiting for the old koot to die. Meanwhile, Arwen waits impatiently for her wedding day. Saruman gets to remain in control of the shire for another 15 years, as the hobbits and Gandalf wait with Aragorn anticipating the grand wedding and celebration of the death of Denethor!
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Denethor
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 8:19 pm |
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Well, it wouldn't quite work out that way - Aragorn was entitled to the throne of ARNOR immediately. He would only have to wait for the throne of GONDOR.
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Lumina
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2001 2:53 am |
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Denethor is noble, proud, tragic, despairing, and stark raving mad. How is it possible NOT to love him?!
What would LotR be without the glorious battle of wills between Denethor and Gandalf? Denethor isn't just a grumpy and embittered old man with nothing better to do but sit around and wallow in his own misery. Think about it: he's a man who, in his old age, is about to lose everything he has ever loved - he has already lost his eldest son Boromir, Gondor is crumbling about him (or so he believes). In his grief he's blinded to the fact that there is still one thing in life that he holds dear - Faramir: and he doesn't realise his love for his remaining son until Faramir returns wounded and close to death. The state he's in by the end is both frightening and pitiful.
Denethor IS one of the most tragic characters in LotR - THE most tragic character, in the Shakespearean sense. I don't dispute Aragorn's claim to the throne, but (I have to say it!) to me Denethor is by far the more interesting character.
Besides, I like his soft spot for Pippin.
Tata,
~Lumina
(this is my first post on these boards, btw!! )
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Khamul'sshadow
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2001 5:54 am |
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And a good post it is, too ! I was also thinking of "tragic" in the
Shakespearean sense ( most closely akin to King Lear, I suppose ).
BTW, a warm welcome to the boards
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