| Who Will Be The Next President of the U.S.? |
| Barack Obama |
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74% |
[ 46 ] |
| John McCain |
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25% |
[ 16 ] |
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| Total Votes : 62 |
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basil
Alliance: Valinor
Last Visited: 02 Sep 2010
Joined: 18 Feb 2001
Posts: 5588
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:17 am |
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Gandalf'sMother said:
basil,
To each his own, but I find it interesting that you express such firm opposition to a philosophy that was literally embodied by Wesley Clark, one of your favorite men in the political scene. Do you think intervention in Bosnia was a mistake? I don't think so.
The problem is that you are grouping the Afghanistan and Iraq messes together with all types of interventions,
Clark is indeed one of my favorites on the political scene and I think he would contribute a lot if he were to become some part of an Obama administration.
As an aside, I believe he was spot on when he made the comment about being shot out of a plane is no qualification for running for president. Scheiffer should have known better.
One phrase which I have seen from time to time here and there is "American Exceptionalism', the belief that since the US is the best country in the world ( it isn't ) and we're the most successful ( we aren't, which could start up several major threads ) and we're the most blessed by God ( not theologically correct ), therefore the US is morally better fit to tell other folk what to do ( hell no! ).
Some few decades ago, the term "Ugly American" covered the concept.
Both terms have gotten us into a lot of trouble, mainly because we relied so heavily upon miltary answers to problems around the world. Very much an authoritarian method ( ref. John Dean's book on the subject. )
Programs such as the Peace Corps being an exception, and a successful one at that.
I did not include the Yugoslavia campaign in my comment, as you wrote, but just Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam.
The answer to my "guess" question, as far as I'm concerned, is that all 3 conflicts I mentioned are based upon false premises, lies if you will.
I'll credit Johnson with a sincere desire to halt the spread of the old boogy-man of Communism, but he used a lie ( Gulf of Tonkin ) to ramp up US involvement miltarily.
Read the confessions of Robert McNamara for further arguments along that line.
The stories behind Afghanistan and Iraq are still unraveling, but the ultimate verdict does not look rosy.
On the other hand, the intervention into Yugoslavia was for the most part open and above board. Clark spent a lot of time working among the NATO members to gather support for that campaign and Clinton and the Republican Congress ( in this case, doing their job as an opposition party, however sleazily they did it ) kept the debate in the US out in public.
IMO, the campaign and continuing policing in Yugoslavia was warranted. Left unchecked, I believe that situation could have caused trouble in and around that area, disrupted trade and area economies, and stalled the progress of unification in Europe. I'll leave the question of whether or not unification is a good thing to our European members.
Whenever there's a discussion about sticking noses into the internal conflicts of other nations, genocides, it's alway problematic for a variety of reasons. One being that the victims, given the chance, more than likely would be doing the same thing their oppressors do against them.
Whatever is done, it must be done openly without any pretense, or as much as is possible, and done internationally.
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Gandalf'sMother
Mariner
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Last Visited: 03 Sep 2010
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:04 am |
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basil,
You have no disagreement from me on Iraq and Vietnam. I read Robert McNamara's book back in '95 when it came out, and was profoundly influenced by it.
Quote:
Programs such as the Peace Corps being an exception, and a successful one at that.
I think there are far more exceptions than this. USAID, The Millenium Challenge Corporation, numerous State Department efforts, and a whole host of civilian-managed, non-violent foreign assistance and democracy-promotion efforts come out of the U.S. government. The problem, and here I agree with you 100%, is that resources are scarce on the civilian side, while over-flowing the coffers on the Defense side. This imbalance is a structural one rooted in the Congressional Appropriations process, which ends up allocating far more funds to the Department of Defense than the Department of State, largely because of interest groups that have a financial interest in the military-industrial complex.
Civilian-led U.S. foreign assistance programs do not have such interest groups (or they are at least not as strong), and so they lose.
Quote:
Whatever is done, it must be done openly without any pretense, or as much as is possible, and done internationally.
I agree 100%. The problem, in the case of Darfur, is that China and South Africa are unfortunately blocking international action.
-GM |
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basil
Alliance: Valinor
Last Visited: 02 Sep 2010
Joined: 18 Feb 2001
Posts: 5588
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:53 am |
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Beer politics:
Does John McCain have a Cuba embargo problem?
By Lesley Clark | McClatchy Newspapers
WASHINGTON — The pending merger of American beer giant Anheuser-Busch and a Belgian company that brews and sells beer in Cuba is thrusting John McCain into the middle of thorny Cuba-U.S. relations.
McCain's wife, Cindy, owns the third largest Anheuser-Busch distributor in the country — which means she would stand to profit by partnering with a company that is in business with the Cuban government.
McCain is a staunch advocate of the embargo, which bars most American companies from doing business in Cuba. Among the yet-to-be-resolved issues in the $52 billion deal is whether Belgian giant InBev — expected to operate under the name Anheuser-Busch-InBev — will continue to market its Cuban line of beer, and what that may mean for U.S. distributors.
Two of McCain's top Florida supporters, Miami Reps. Lincoln and Mario Diaz-Balart, assailed the InBev-Anheuser Busch deal earlier this month, saying they are "deeply concerned'' that Anheuser-Busch is about to be purchased by a company "with ties to the Cuban dictatorship, a state sponsor of terrorism.''
A spokesman for the Diaz-Balarts said Tuesday night the two congressmen stand by their statement.
Complicating matters for McCain: A Cuban exile family with a long tradition of brewing beer in pre-Castro Cuba claims that InBev has illegally been using the trademark beer name Cristal, which the family created in Cuba before its company was seized by Fidel Castro's government in 1960.
"There are legal figleafs that can be applied here, but the crux of the situation is that property rights are being trampled on,'' said Nicolas Gutierrez, an attorney for Key Biscayne's Blanco Herrera family.
According to financial disclosure statements, Cindy McCain also owns stock in Anheuser-Busch and would stand to make as much as $2 million in profit if she sells the shares after the merger.
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More "ouch", WRT McCain's recent ad likening Obama to Spears and Hilton":
Quote:
Team John McCain has produced a new ad that slams Barack Obama and paints him as similar to trainwrecks Britney Spears and Paris Hilton.
The three, according to the McCain camp, are considered the top mega celebrities in the world.
With the exception of Obama, the other two are titans in the Kathy Griffin "D-Listed" world - not considered top celebrities in the realm of Brangelina or Johnny Depp. Someone may want to clue the McCain camp in on that.
McCain’s message is Obama is an elitist who does not have the gravitas to run the country.
And that Obama drinks some fancy "tea", so how could he possibly be in charge.
The ad has stirred another controversy, as McCain has seemingly bit the hand that feeds him, namely the Hilton clan, Kathy and Rick who gave a large chunk of dough for his presidential campaign
The ad says, “The biggest celebrity in the world but is he ready to lead?”
Kathy Hilton and Rick Hilton are spitting mad with the McCain camp. It seems they now feel their daughter Paris is being slagged unfairly.
The video ad mentioned is at the site linked above. And there's another video somewhere showing Spears endorsing McCain.
Must be a roomful of monkeys in McCain's war room, or Obama agents, or spiderwebs, something strange.
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portia
Mariner
Alliance: The Shire
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:40 pm |
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I have a problem with intervention in Darfur, which is the same problem I had with intervention in Rwanda. That problem is that there are limits to what military force can accomplish, and I am not at all sure that military force would do much in Darfur beyond killing more people. The battles are to amorphous, and hit and run, and there are too many targets, for a military force to stop, even if a tremendous number of people were involved.
It is sad to have so many people suffering and not be able to do anything military to stop it, but I think that is probably the case. Unfortunately, the campaigns to stop the killing in Darfur are failing to say what should be done, and how. They are merely playing on people's emotions.
The candidates should not promise to do something that would put us in as much of a quagmire as Iraq. |
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Dave_LF
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Gandalf'sMother
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Posted: Fri Aug 1, 2008 5:39 am |
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Quote:
I have a problem with intervention in Darfur, which is the same problem I had with intervention in Rwanda. That problem is that there are limits to what military force can accomplish, and I am not at all sure that military force would do much in Darfur beyond killing more people. The battles are to amorphous, and hit and run, and there are too many targets, for a military force to stop, even if a tremendous number of people were involved.
First, I will say that Darfur advocates are not yet calling for international military action. They are first trying to secure a UN Security Council resolution condemning the government of Sudan, but that is being held up by China and South Africa.
On the last resort of a military intervention, I disagree 100% with your assessment. The parties involved (which are basically a number of genocidal parties against a near-helpless population) are rather weak, and might, in the event of an international military intervention (mandated by a Security Council resolution), fall like a house of cards. The difference between this situation and, say, Iraq, is that Iraq is full of heavily armed factions on ALL sides, who all have a pretty significant degree of political power (some groups have more than others, but there is not a total imbalance), and with whom it is difficult to distinguish who has a moral upper hand. Darfur basically has a government and militias on one side (though certainly a dizzying array), and generally unarmed "rebel" innocents of a particular ethnic group on the other - hence the charge of genocide. The moral question is clear.
The NATO intervention in the former Yugoslavia was far more complex and dangerous than Darfur, and it resulted in almost no allied troop casualties, and a halt to the ethnic cleansing that had been allowed to go on for far too long. So why should there not be action in the Sudan?
Your negative assessment of a military intervention obscures the realities on the ground. Of course an intervention would not be painless, but it would certainly save more lives than it costs.
Is the international community reluctant to act because, after all, these are just savage Africans killing each other?
Quote:
It is sad to have so many people suffering and not be able to do anything military to stop it, but I think that is probably the case. Unfortunately, the campaigns to stop the killing in Darfur are failing to say what should be done, and how.
That's not true. Darfur advocates have called for a Security Council resolution condemning the government of Sudan, and this has been blocked by the Chinese and the South Africans. If there is a successful such resolution in the future, the next step would be to demand that the Sudanese government end the genocide campaign. If that demand then goes unheeded, then hard international sanctions would be placed on the regime. If those didn't work, then yes, a
final resort
might be a resolution for military intervention.
Some more "what to dos" for the US government is coming very soon in December:
http://www.ushmm.org/conscience/taskforce/press/?content=2007-11-13
It is not an easy thing to prescribe. More advocates are arguing, at least for the US government, that there needs to be an "automaticity" for "a response" to genocide. Therefore, even if the U.S. decides to "do nothing" it will have to justify "doing nothing" through a legal argument of some kind. That is currently as far as darfur (or anti-genocide) advocates will go in terms of policy prescriptions.
-GM |
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portia
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Posted: Fri Aug 1, 2008 6:56 am |
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Well, that is one point of view, but I have no confidence in resolutions, sanctions, etc. It almost always comes down to force, and I do not consider force a credible threat in Darfur.
If some vital resource were involved, the balance would tip a bit in favor of trying force. However, logistics, mobility, identifying the enemy (nearly all irregulars, on both sides), a large "battle area" all make taking in an outside force to quiet the area very difficult. Furthermore, peacekeeping would be for a long time, since the fighting is based on ethnic tensions that have lasted hundreds of years and will not disappear overnight. This is especially true as the shortage of resources makes it more likely that people will be willing to fight for what there is.
Guns are not rare, there, IMO. A lot of the victims are unarmed, but there seems to be an increasing percentage of well-armed non-Arabs.
I do not think the former Yugoslavia should be held up as a good example of intervention. It took a long time to get Europe to act, and it was only when the US practically forced a response. Many people were killed almost in sight of NATO troops. There are going to have to be garrisons there for a long time, yet. And this is Europe where there is far greater education, economic developement and other factors that should work against genocidal civil war. |
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Alliance: Grey Havens
Last Visited: 02 Sep 2010
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 9358
Location: The Real World
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It takes a government to create the degree of chaos commonly thought of as anarchy.
Liberals and libertarians support opposite policies to achieve the same goals. Liberals and progressives support the same policies to achieve opposite goals.
"Evidence confirming an observation is evidence that the observation is wrong" - some guy I once debated online.
Last edited by
Cenedril_Gildinaur
on 31 Feb 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total
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Gandalf'sMother
Mariner
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Last Visited: 03 Sep 2010
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Posted: Fri Aug 1, 2008 7:49 am |
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portia,
Quote:
I do not think the former Yugoslavia should be held up as a good example of intervention. It took a long time to get Europe to act, and it was only when the US practically forced a response. Many people were killed almost in sight of NATO troops.
Agreed. A future intervention of a similar kind should be more robust, in order to ensure that genocide does not happen under the eyes of peace-keepers.
On Darfur, in terms of all the enemies being "irregulars" that is not the case at all. The main enemy is the government of Sudan in Khartoum, and, secondarily, the janjaweed irregulars (who are employed by the government), and then the government of Chad. If Khartoum were to face complete international isolation (and, crucially, this means that China would have to agree to cut its lucrative ties and impose sanctions) then there is a decent chance that the regime could cave. Right now, it has a huge, growing China on its side, and as such, it sees no reason to capitulate to Western demands. If China doesn't get on board, then real international action will probably never happen. Other work-arounds, like unilateral divestments campaigns, would have to suffice.
-GM |
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hamlet
Mariner
Alliance: Mordor
Last Visited: 17 Mar 2009
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Posted: Fri Aug 1, 2008 8:01 am |
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Obama wants to institute a $1000 consumer "energy refund" by creating a "windfall profits tax" against the energy and oil companies.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080801/ap_on_el_pr/obama;_ylt=AkSC7Wxsf1kKKJSD5qytav2s0NUE
I think this is a really bad idea as any increase in taxes against these companies will simply raise the prices for the end consumer thus making his refund pointless if not more harmful in the long run as the poorer you are, the more proportionately you pay on fuel. |
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Iorlas
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Gondor
Last Visited: 22 Aug 2009
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Posts: 4898
Location: Canada
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Cerin
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Posted: Sat Aug 2, 2008 6:25 am |
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So now Obama supports offshore drilling. Does he think this kind of pandering and caving on principle is going to win him votes? Meanwhile, anecdotal evidence from NPR yesterday is that the new McCain ads (focused on his vacuous celebrity and popularity overseas) are having their effect, and Obama's negatives are rising astronomically (I can't recall where this caller to Diane Rehm was from, but he was someone involved in canvassing in a 50% white, 50% hispanic blue collar district).
Given that the generic Democrat is winning by 15% and Obama is now polling behind McCain, I think the delegates are nothing short of idiots if they hand the nomination to Obama at this point, the one candidate with a good chance of losing. If they do so because they're too lily-livered to exercise the discretion and judgment they were put there to exercise, then we deserve to lose.
It appears Obama's trip abroad was a net loss, since it apparently has had no effect on the perception that he is not fit to be Commander in Chief, and has given the Republicans bountiful ammunition on the celebrity, arrogance and xenophobia fronts, for their ads. |
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ILvEowyn
Ringbearer
Alliance: Servant to Galadriel
Last Visited: 02 Sep 2010
Joined: 28 Dec 2000
Posts: 12517
Location: lovely Western NY
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Posted: Sat Aug 2, 2008 2:15 pm |
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Quote:
Given that the generic Democrat is winning by 15% and Obama is now polling behind McCain, I think the delegates are nothing short of idiots if they hand the nomination to Obama at this point, the one candidate with a good chance of losing.
Oh I don't know, I think Hillary would have a pretty good chance of losing too
I think the close poll numbers are more a result of McCain's perceived "likeability" than of Obama's faults. Putting Hillary up there wouldn't change that either.
Quote:
It appears Obama's trip abroad was a net loss, since it apparently has had no effect on the perception that he is not fit to be Commander in Chief, and has given the Republicans bountiful ammunition on the celebrity, arrogance and xenophobia fronts, for their ads.
Ammunition such as? I thought it was a pretty good trip. People said he couldn't handle himself abroad, and he said "OK then, here I am". I never really thought many people would change their votes based on that trip. |
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Gandalf'sMother
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Posted: Sat Aug 2, 2008 2:20 pm |
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Cerin,
Net loss how? Are you referring to polls? Did his numbers drop as a result of the trip?
-GM |
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Ethel
The Pirate's Daughter
Alliance: None
Last Visited: 18 Jan 2010
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Posted: Sat Aug 2, 2008 6:22 pm |
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Gandalf'sMother said:
Net loss how? Are you referring to polls? Did his numbers drop as a result of the trip?
Well... the Gallup daily tracking polls have had Obama and McCain tied at 44% the last two days. This may be because of the trip, or it may be because of the 5 straight days of negative ads from the McCain campaign. Or it may be statistical noise. I mean, I prefer it when the Democratic candidate leads in the daily Gallup poll, but I put more stock in the more complex analysis done at places like
http://www.pollster.com/
and
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com
. And Obama is looking pretty good there. Not good enough for us to be complacent about a win, but still... pretty good.
A couple of things I have learned from the calling I have been doing on behalf of Democratic candidates:
- There are
some
people out there who generally vote Republican who are seriously considering voting for Obama.
- There are a
lot
of people out there who simply haven't been paying much attention. I heard quite a few comments along the lines of, "I'm not sure. I guess I'll wait until after the conventions."
I realize that the plural of anecdote isn't data, but these were real voters, registered Unaffiliated, that I was talking to.
Obama came from way back in the pack to win the nomination against a very popular Democrat who was considered a "shoo in". That gives me a certain amount of trust in his campaign strategy. I'm not going to go all "chicken little" over two days of being tied with McCain in the national daily tracking polls. For good or for ill, presidential elections are won by electoral votes, and that means the state polls are more important--and that's what the two websites listed above follow.
Emotionally, I would like to see the Obama campaign hit back, and hit back hard, against McCain's negative ads. McCain is vulnerable to negative advertising himself on a number of counts--dumping the first wife who waited for him while he was a POW, the Keating Five scandal, his vague but threatening posture with regard to Social Security, his "rich guy" approach to the economy, even his $520 loafers. But the Obama campaign isn't going to hit McCain on the personal stuff. It's pretty clear by now that they have chosen not to do that. I do expect him to draw some sharp parallels regarding policy differences during the debates, however.
Whatever the effect on polls now, I believe Obama's trip will be a net plus in the fall. People are very focused on pocketbook issues at the moment, but a huge majority regrets the decline in world esteem that the US has suffered during the Bush presidency. It's clear to anyone paying attention that Obama can turn that around. It's not at all clear that McCain can.
One more thought: a couple of influential pundits--Joe Klein of Time, and Jonathan Alter of Newsweek--have posted extremely negative pieces about McCain in the last week (reactions to the ridiculous and manifestly false negative advertising from his campaign). If that's a leading indicator that McCain is beginning to lose his enthusiastic support in the Beltway press corps, that will hurt him in the long run. Even if the negative ads help him in the short run. |
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basil
Alliance: Valinor
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Lord_Morningstar
Mariner
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Location: Queensland, Australia
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hamlet
Mariner
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Posted: Mon Aug 4, 2008 4:34 am |
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Iorlas said:
hamlet said:
Obama wants to institute a $1000 consumer "energy refund" by creating a "windfall profits tax" against the energy and oil companies.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080801/ap_on_el_pr/obama;_ylt=AkSC7Wxsf1kKKJSD5qytav2s0NUE
Your link is to a story about Obama's position on offshore drilling. It doesn't say anything about a windfall profits tax. But if he really is proposing that, it's the same faulty logic as the gas tax rebate that McCain wants. The price of gas will rise until profits are maximized for the oil companies, irregardless of what taxes are imposed or lifted.
Apparantly the article was changed. Kind of standard procedure with the AP.
Here's a copy of it that I dug out of the archives:
Quote:
Obama ad calls for return of windfall profits tax By TOM RAUM, Associated Press Writer
1 minute ago
Barack Obama's campaign unveiled a television ad Monday that attacks Republican John McCain's energy policies.
"After one president in the pocket of big oil we can't afford another," says the ad, referring to President Bush's previous work in the oil industry.
Obama hoped to emphasize energy and the economy in campaign stops this week in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana, beginning with a speech Monday in Lansing, Mich. Gas prices over $4 a gallon have become a top issue in the presidential contest.
Obama's spot trumpets his proposal to revive a windfall profits tax on energy companies and asserts that McCain favors tax breaks for the oil industry.
"A windfall profits tax on big oil to give families a thousand-dollar rebate," an announcer in the ad says.
Obama has pushed for such a tax to fund $1,000 emergency rebate checks for consumers besieged by high energy costs.
Congress enacted a windfall profits tax in 1980, during an earlier era of high oil prices, but repealed it in 1988 amid concerns the tax was discouraging domestic oil development. Last year, the House approved $18 billion in new taxes on the largest oil companies, but they were blocked by Republicans in the Senate.
The new Obama ad opens with a driver pumping gas. The announcer says, "Every time you fill your tank, the oil companies fill their pockets."
Republicans were quick to pounce.
"Barack Obama's latest attack ads shows his celebrity is matched only by his hypocrisy," said McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds. "After all it was Senator Obama, not John McCain, who voted for the Bush-Cheney energy bill that was a sweetheart deal for oil companies. Also not mentioned is the $400,000 from big oil contributors that Barack Obama has already pocketed in this election."
Alex Conant, a spokesman for the Republican National Committee, said Michigan Republicans planned to go to Obama's Lansing event to pass out tire gauges engraved with "Obama's Energy Plan." That pokes fun at the part of Obama's energy plan calling for people to inflate their tires to the highest correct pressure to help conserve fuel.
Obama aides said the new ad began running on Monday in markets around the country.
Obama has said recently that he would reluctantly consider accepting some new offshore oil drilling. Obama previously opposed any offshore drilling.
Lately, however, he has cited "very constructive" talks between Senate Republicans and Democrats on this issue. He praised a plan unveiled by a group of Republican and Democratic senators to permit drilling while supporting an effort to convert most vehicles to alternative fuels in 20 years.
McCain's campaign accused the Democrat of flip-flopping. However, the Arizona Democrat recently reversed his own former opposition to drilling on the Outer Continental Shelf.
Both candidates have energy proposals to reduce U.S. dependence on oil. Obama's was first, and its centerpiece is a 10-year, $150 billion spending plan focusing on clean coal technology, further development of plug-in hybrid cars, commercialization of wind and solar power and other measures.
McCain's, which is called the Lexington Project, includes building 45 new nuclear power plants; offering a $300 million prize for major advancement of low-cost, plug-in hybrid or electric car technology; and "encouraging the market" in wind, hydroelectric and solar power. Both he and Obama would cut use of fossil fuels to combat climate change.
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Dave_LF
Mariner
Alliance: House of Feanor
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basil
Alliance: Valinor
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Posts: 5588
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Posted: Mon Aug 4, 2008 6:58 am |
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http://www.newsweek.com/id/150477/page/2
Quote:
I misread McCain. On the night of the 2000 South Carolina primary, I was in his hotel suite and watched Cindy weeping over what Rove and his goons did. Her husband was plenty mad, too. Now he's got Rove's protégé, Steve Schmidt, running his campaign. Eight years ago, McCain profusely apologized for playing racial politics in South Carolina by backing efforts to fly the Confederate flag at the state capital. Now he's content to see race crowd out the economy in the battle for precious media oxygen. McCain argues that Obama opened himself up to attack by saying, "They're gonna say he doesn't look like those other presidents on the dollar bills." But if his campaign hadn't leaped on that Obama comment, it would have been another. Accusing the other guy of playing the race card is a not terribly subtle form of, well, playing the race card—and the victim.
The real question is what all of this might mean for a McCain presidency. The list of troubling portents is growing long: repeated campaign staff upheavals reflecting poor management skills; abrupt reversals on big issues like tax cuts and relations with Russia (where he was superhawk one day and superdove the next); shameless pandering on a gas-tax holiday that even his own economic advisers think is a joke; confused handling of Social Security that annoys all sides of the debate; bogus charges (e.g., Obama is causing high gas prices, Obama didn't visit wounded soldiers because he couldn't take the press) that undermine his integrity; and an angry, bunker mentality among aides that one GOP operative, fearing excommunication from Team McCain if identified, describes as "lacking only a Luger and a cyanide pill."
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James Wolcott:
Quote:
But I have watched enough television during incarceration to have a few points to make about the McCain campaign's new anti-Obama "celebrity" ad.
1) Obama looks so cool, upbeat, and confident in the ad that his smiling, waving, striding presence provides a "lift" that doesn't simply contradict the admonitory tone of the voiceover text, but visually drowns it out through sheer pow of personality. It'd be like trying to warn teenagers in the fifties about the dangers of rock and roll, then showing concert footage of Elvis at his most charismatic--great way to create converts, guys!
2) Regardless of the racial-sexual subtext being purveyed, referencing Britney Spears and Paris Hilton seems a bit tired and dated, the older generation scolding the younger. Picking on Spears in a political ad seems like poor sportsmanship (she's hardly done the harm to the culture that Ann Coulter has), and in her wealth, privilege, and lathed blondness, Paris Hilton resembles a younger version of Cindy McCain--there's an almost daughterly resemblance, an enjoined twirl of ruling class DNA. So using her as an object of derision doesn't quite gel.
3) The closing profile shot of McCain, head tilted as if basking in the soft heavenly glow of Reagan above, is not only corner and kitschy but reduces the candidate to a postage stamp--this, after portraying Obama as a fully engaged energy packet.
4) America is a country based on celebrity, a country where nearly everybody wants to be a celebrity, an American Idol, and decrying the cult of celebrity is an empty exercise in moralizing. After JFK, Reagan, and Bill Clinton, the candidate as glamour figure is already wired into our collective psyches, and Fred Thompson's celebrity status didn't seem to trouble Republicans when he looked like a contender, until they realized his gravitas was indistinguishable from indigestion.
5) The real message of the McCain ad is that they're envious of Obama's elan vital, and are reduced to mocking what they covet, Envy makes a person look petty, and a petty, peevish John McCain will be indistinguishable from the Bob Dole of 1996 if he doesn't "big up." Right now his campaign is making Obama look like the mature one, which may explain why at least one
longtime McCain loyalist is barking from the shadows.
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Nadreck_of_Palain7
Ranger of the North
Alliance: House of Feanor
Last Visited: 29 Aug 2010
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 1231
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Posted: Mon Aug 4, 2008 11:27 am |
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What is the latest attack on Obama?
Tire pressure gauges
Quote:
I’ve been trying to figure out the same thing for days. As the Obama campaign kicks off “energy week” with a new contrast ad and a policy speech in Michigan, Time’s Mark Halperin reports, “McCain supporters in Michigan will distribute tire gauges at Obama’s energy speech in Lansing. The RNC will also deliver gauges reading ‘Obama’s energy plan’ to Washington newsrooms.”
...
We are, quite obviously, in the midst of a very aggressive roll-out here. John McCain criticized the notion of well-inflated tires on Friday, and Newt Gingrich described Obama’s remarks as “loony toons” during a Fox News interview. Yesterday morning on ABC, McCain said, “It seems to me the only thing [Obama] wants us to do is inflate tires” to improve gas mileage.
Here is what Obama said:
Quote:
"There are things that you can do individually though to save energy," Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, said. "Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much."
Of course, proper tire pressure is not Obama's energy plan, just a tip that demonstrates the potential conservation has for saving oil. The claim that this is Obama's plan is a ridiculous distortion. The advice to keep tires properly inflated and the car in proper tune has been given by many people. The site
http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/maintain.shtml
estimates that proper tire inflation could save up to 3 percent of fuel, which they say is the equivalent of saving 12 cents per gallon. Not a lot, but it is easy and cheap saving. The same site says keeping cars in proper tune can save up to 4 percent. Replacing a clogged air filter can save up to 10 percent! While many cars are in good shape, I think that there are a lot of cars that could benefit from such measures. Even if a car got only half the maximum benefit, it would still save about 8 percent on fuel, the approximate equivalent of 32 cents per gallon. Note that all estimates of the effect of maximum offshore drilling do not have that much effect on oil prices.
Actually I am not even sure I should have given such a rebuttal, because the Republican noise about this is a symptom of everything I hate about how campaigns are run and especially how the media covers the campaigns. It is an attempt to create quick, mindless marketing sound bites to create a cumulative emotional effect. It contains no information about real energy problems or how they should be solved.
The real energy problem starts as an engineering problem, and the way politics should deal with the problem is to find out the trade-offs required and make judgments about which trade-offs to make. How much oil is available? How much would it cost to get it? How much pollution would be produced getting more? How much of a threat is global warming? What are the costs that global warming will impose, and what are the costs to reduce it? What are the costs of importing oil? How much can conservation save, and how much do conservation measures cost? How much can electricity be used for cars? Can the electric grid support large scale electric car usage, and what is the cost in money and pollution will providing for large scale electric car adoption? What are the potential and costs (financial and environmental) for wind power, solar power, nuclear power? What are the costs in money and pollution for using more coal, doing coal liquification, oil shale, tar sands? These are the questions that need to be answered to deal with energy. For many of them, the answers are estimates or guesses.
But the political campaigns do not deal with this sort of stuff. Maybe they think it is too complicated for the public to pay attention to, even though these questions are absolutely vital to deciding energy policy. Maybe the politicians don't think the public can deal with the uncertainties involved, or maybe the politicians themselves can't deal with the uncertainties. |
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GlassHouse
Mariner
Alliance: Durins Folk
Last Visited: 02 Sep 2010
Joined: 05 Nov 2001
Posts: 6364
Location: NH
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Cerin
Mariner
Alliance: Dol Amroth
Last Visited: 01 Sep 2010
Joined: 01 May 2000
Posts: 6404
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Posted: Mon Aug 4, 2008 12:57 pm |
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ILvEowyn said:
Ammunition such as?
I'm thinking specifically of the Britney-Paris ad, which targets the vacuous celebrity, and of an ad I saw from (I think) the RNC website, which featured numerous Berliners waxing rhapsodic over Obama, which targets the xenophobia/patriotism coin. From what I've heard anecdotally, these two themes are gaining some traction with voters.
Gandalf'sMother said:
Net loss how? Are you referring to polls? Did his numbers drop as a result of the trip?
Yes, I believe it was after the trip that McCain pulled ahead in the likely voter poll for the first time. I heard arrogance talked about a good deal just after the trip, and as I said, Obama's poll numbers for acceptability for Commander in Chief did not climb. So -- no gain on that, his weakest front, plenty of negative fallout on the other fronts equals a net loss, in my view.
Nadreck_of_Palain7 said:
Actually I am not even sure I should have given such a rebuttal, because the Republican noise about this is a symptom of everything I hate about how campaigns are run and especially how the media covers the campaigns. It is an attempt to create quick, mindless marketing sound bites to create a cumulative emotional effect. It contains no information about real energy problems or how they should be solved.
This is the kind of campaigning that gained the Republicans the White House the last two times, this is the kind of campaigning by which they managed to control the public discourse and perception of reality throughout these two terms. I have no idea why anyone would think it won't work this time around. American voters are just as stupid, just as distracted, just as uninformed and just as insulated from the truth by the American corporate media as they have been the throughout the last eight years. If Obama doesn't learn quickly how to fight this fight -- the fight the Republicans are engaged in -- he is a dead duck.
I heard someone this weekend -- David Gergen, perhaps -- opine that Obama should choose Hillary for VP if only because she is someone who knows how to fight back.
I'm still hoping the delegates will come to their senses and nominate someone with experience, who can win. Maybe if things continue to deteriorate until then . . .
When and where are the two conventions taking place? |
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Gandalf'sMother
Mariner
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 03 Sep 2010
Joined: 19 Sep 2000
Posts: 9807
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Posted: Mon Aug 4, 2008 1:01 pm |
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Cerin,
DNC - Denver - August 25 - 27
RNC- Minneapolis - Sept 1-4
-GM |
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vison
She-Devil
Alliance: Fangorn
Last Visited: 02 Sep 2010
Joined: 31 Dec 2003
Posts: 9870
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Posted: Mon Aug 4, 2008 1:37 pm |
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Cerin, if you are still harbouring some dream that Ms. Clinton is going to be given the nomination and that if she is, she will prove to be a winner, I have to say, it's time to wake up.
Things have not "deteriorated", the campaign is getting into gear and the Ugly Machines are up and running. However, it has only just begun . . .
I wonder if you can imagine - please try to imagine - the fuel those Ugly Machines would get if Mr. Obama was set aside in favour of Ms. Clinton. It beggars my imagination, I can tell you that.
Mr. Obama stands a perfectly good chance of being elected. Ms. Clinton will not be the nominee. If you did not mean Ms. Clinton when you said, "nominate someone with experience, who can win", then who did you mean? Is there some secret Wunderkind in hiding? |
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Dwight Eisenhower said:
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron."
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Alliance: Grey Havens
Last Visited: 02 Sep 2010
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 9358
Location: The Real World
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Posted: Mon Aug 4, 2008 2:27 pm |
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Not only are things not deteriorating, Obama is actually doing a good job of campaigning without throwing too much mud. This is a remarkably civil campaign. |
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It takes a government to create the degree of chaos commonly thought of as anarchy.
Liberals and libertarians support opposite policies to achieve the same goals. Liberals and progressives support the same policies to achieve opposite goals.
"Evidence confirming an observation is evidence that the observation is wrong" - some guy I once debated online.
Last edited by
Cenedril_Gildinaur
on 31 Feb 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total
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crispycreme
Refined Neanderthal
Alliance: Dale
Last Visited: 04 Aug 2010
Joined: 24 May 2001
Posts: 9454
Location: California, at last
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Gandalf'sMother
Mariner
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 03 Sep 2010
Joined: 19 Sep 2000
Posts: 9807
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Ari-Anna
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Valinor
Last Visited: 31 May 2010
Joined: 31 Mar 2003
Posts: 2829
Location: So...come here often?
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rwhen
Gettin' Older
Alliance: Grey Havens
Last Visited: 03 Sep 2010
Joined: 08 Aug 2001
Posts: 23620
Location: Daytrippin'
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Posted: Tue Aug 5, 2008 10:09 am |
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I would like to think that Obama running a civil campaign would win loyalty from the opposite camp, as they are running such a bad smear campaign. But it didn't work that way in the past two elections.
The challege, as I see it, is the Obama camp must find an effective way to fight the smear tactics while maintaining their ethics. That is hard to do and seems like a lose lose situation come November.
The only thing I can think of is that Obama must find a way to capture the news outlets so overwhelmingly positive actions, statements and plans that the ads from the McCain bunch have little effect.
The polls that I saw this morning still show Obama in the lead across the board, but by very little, which esentially means a tight race at this point. The only thing that I saw that McCain had a lead on was a question of leadership during war. A valid question and McCain scored much higher on that question. On all the rest, Obama is still leading...the most I saw was 4 points and with a 3+/3- error factored in, that is dead even and way too close for my liking.
I am hoping that after Obama is declared the candidate on the 25th, that things can shake out at a faster rate for getting the vote in. My fear is that Dem's will do what they did for the last 8 years and that is sit at home. Four years ago I heard that more women, blacks, hispanics and youth were voting than ever before and we still lost. They are saying the same thing this election. What will be different? And just to head off the statement, it was not about John Kerry or Al Gore or now Obama, it is about Dem's and who votes come Nov. 3rd.
If the first four years of Bush rule didn't bring them out, why would 8? I am trying to stay optimistic, but I see the same trend as four years ago. The Dem candidate has a strong lead that erodes closer and closer to the election and then we lose.
Thank you to those who are doing something to help at polling places, making calls, helping local candidates. I wish I had the time and energy to help more than donate money. |
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Love is as big or as little as a hug!!
I will always treasure and remember your appreciation. Thank you. -2007 WCA's
Overwhelmed by your support and appreciation. Thank you. - 2008 WCA's
The Expected Party!!
is now on the road to Gondor to celebrate. Join us.
Also trying to get
Tyg and Maedhros wed.
and getting into trouble with
Rally The Eldar.
Time out of Mind, forever bound to my Knight Ayslhyn
Vanadarlin'
, my SSOTH - 143 forever  |
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