Translation of the Ainulindalë into Sindarin

[Xandarien]

*admiring silence*

Hehe

Got anywhere with the Tengwar? Given your backlog I'm guessing probably not!

[Isildilmë]

*admiring silence*

Hehe

Got anywhere with the Tengwar? Given your backlog I'm guessing probably not!

And your guessing so well, you have almost every talent !
to me

but I'm now a bit less than 2 weeks late in the transcriptions, so there is a chance that I can in a not-so-far future I may start it... but "not so far" can be a little long... I really don't know !

[Xandarien]

Sixth page finished, started the seventh (the end is finally in sight lol).

[Isildilmë]

Sixth page finished, started the seventh (the end is finally in sight lol).

Damn, I'll have to wake up at some point !

[Cillendor]

I'm glad to see that you're working on this again!

I didn't see until today that Isildilmë was going to be working on a transcription, so I started my own. I'm done with the first two pages, and here is a tentative version (pdf). The red words are words that you said that you might change (lind > gling, in Rodyn > idh Rodyn). I put Ilúvatar in the quote-looking things because I've read before that they signify words from another language or written in another mode, and as Ilúvatar is a Quenya name, I wrote it in the Quenya mode. I'm not sold on the punctuation; all of the dots are confusing, and should Sindarin have quotation marks signifying speech? As it is, I have:
· = ,
:· = the start of a quote, similar to how Spanish dialog is often written with em-dashes instead of quotation marks
·:· = period, and in one instance an en-dash or hyphen
: = semicolon

Let me know what you think and if you have any suggestions. Also Isildilmë, I'm new here (from Council of Elrond), but I perceive that you are the resident Tengwar expert. If you have any suggestions or criticisms, please let me know. I don't know of anyone at CoE who is "fluent" in Tengwar to know if my understanding is correct or not. I'd appreciate your input.

[Xandarien]

I'm glad to see that you're working on this again!

Have some time now I finished my previous project - added first third of the seventh page.

And ooh my word that looks so pretty!

Have just done a pass over it, changed all 'ae' for 'pe', and made a couple of (rather embarrassing) edits to the first paragraph: i bin aer is now i phin aer, Rodonath has been replaced in one instance by idh Rodyn, and in the other occasion, removed the definite article (i Rodonath -> Rodonath). I think, that it should now also be accurate with the usage of lind and gling (former is used for 'air' 'tune' or 'theme' and the latter for all cases of 'music'.) If I've missed one, do point it out.

[Almatolmen]

Cillendor, that looks very impressive. I can't wait to read Isildilme's comments!

[Cillendor]

So in the first paragraph, you have "Ah i lû toll i Ilúvatar tolthant Rodonath ah penn andin o lhind veleg, narad andin o naid roveleg athan i naid penn o núf; ah i aglar oh i onnad dîn ah i glaur oh i veth dîn cauthant in Rodyn," is this correct or should it be idh? Also I see "in lind gling"; is this correct? Since you said so, I'll assume all other occurrences of lind/gling are correct at this point.

I'll update the PDF* in a moment so you can check over it if you want, and I'd love to see Isildilmë's response too. I have nothing to do later this afternoon (in CST, in case you're wondering), so I'll tackle the third paragraph later today. ^_^

*Dropbox is awesome! You don't need to change all of your embedded hyperlinks if you update the file, so long as the name stays the same. That's so cool!

[Xandarien]

is this correct or should it be idh?

Lol, changed it in my .docx and not on here, *facepalm*. Changed!

Also I see "in lind gling"; is this correct? Since you said so, I'll assume all other occurrences of lind/gling are correct at this point.

Yes, and I shall explain
in lind gling = the airs of music, in lind = the airs, the tunes, (of) gling = music.

I'll update the PDF* in a moment so you can check over it if you want, and I'd love to see Isildilmë's response too. I have nothing to do later this afternoon (in CST, in case you're wondering), so I'll tackle the third paragraph later today. ^_^

*Dropbox is awesome! You don't need to change all of your embedded hyperlinks if you update the file, so long as the name stays the same. That's so cool!

Excellent! And oh, didn't know that, that's useful! I use dropbox too.

[genericallygypsi]

I don't have a lotttttt to say about this (as I'm a complete newbie when it comes to Tolkien's languages, etc), except WOW. I'm very impressed by the passion you guys (gals) have for this.

As far as the purist vs. Neo debate goes though, I'm of the mind that as long as you are keeping as closely to the parameters set down by Tolkien, he would probably appreciate your efforts.

[Cillendor]

Another question: On page 2, you have "an anírn galad i valan ah aglar en-ethad i óniel anden." I'm sure it's a typo, but would I be safe to assume that you mean anírOn?
And further down page 2, you have two more occurrences of in Rodyn. Ought I change this as well?
On page 1, you have Lind Veleg, but on page 3, you have Gling Veleg. Are both of these correct?
And finally, just doing a cursory CTRL+F down the page, you have a few instances of i gling that appear to be ú-vutated (haha). Are they meant to be that way, or is that a by-product of changing out lind for gling?

Is Iâ meant to be two syllables? I ask because how I would write a preceding /i/ that functions as an English /y/-consonant is with a yanta, but that would produce "yâ" as a single syllable. I don't know whether this would be seen as two syllables or one to a native speaker. If it is meant to be two distinct syllables, I'll change the yanta to a regular short-carrier + /i/. (This question also pertains to io.)

Thanks and keep up the great work!

Well, it seems that while Quenya may be somewhat more appropriate, the actual translation would be a while in the works, whereas Xandarien already has a decent start on the Sindarin version. I'm leaning towards let's do this in Sindarin in the near term (next few months) and transcribe it, then set it into art, and then if and when we get this in Quenya, we can look at doing it a second or third time.

Fear not, there is already a Quenya translation out there. I don't know anything about Quenya to know if it's accurate, but it exists, and is very pretty, too.

EDIT: I've finished the transcription of the third page right here. All of the words marked in red refer to question areas above. Now to begin the fourth page…

EDIT (7:47PM CST): I just finished page 4, and now I'm taking a break for dinner. I'll probably finish through page 6 tonight if I don't develop carpal tunnel first, but I'm holding off on 7 until it's finished (I don't want to accidentally have repeat lines or omit anything). Xandarien, since editing this post for each new question was getting rather tedious, I have instead put all of my questions in the PDF. They are written in English, underlined, and marked in red, so hopefully it'll give you a better idea as to what I'm asking than isolated fragments in this post. I hope you like it so far.

EDIT (11:45PM): Page 5 finished. I love spring break. ♥ Also personally, the i i are very confusing. At first I thought they were just typos, so I marked them, but then I realized that they aren't and they mean something like "that the" or "that who" or something along those lines. Is there any way to alter this? I think in spoken Sindarin, it would be confusing because either it would sound like î, or you'd have to take a brief stop in the flow of the words to vocalize the two separate words. Personally, I think Tolkien used i for too many things, but I can see how the meanings overlap differently than they do in English. Regardless, it seems rather impractical. :/

NOTE: All punctuation is based on this material, with the exception of situations of quotation. Since Sindarin has no known quotation marks (at least according to Måns Björkman), I have opted for using :· to indicate the beginning of a section of quoted speech, and then not break the line at a sentence break until the quote is finished. I considered using || instead, but those are apparently only used as parentheses in attested materials. If you have a preference for one type of punctuation over another, let me know and I'll change it.

EDIT (12:52PM): Page 6 is finished, and I've gone back through and fixed as many typos as I could. Also, I fixed up an incorrect diphthong (I'd learnt it wrong because I accidentally carried it over from Beleriand), and all of the punctuation should be consistent. I'm either going to bed now or watching a movie. NOTE: The indented lines indicate sections of dialog. I thought that having every sentence repeat a new line looked ugly, but I don't know how to designate a quote. If anyone has any suggestions, please do share. Thanks!

[avogel57]

Just popped in to check how things are going, and I'm excited! In my copy it looks like there's a little less than one page left!
I need to go back now and check out that Quenya version and the other transcriptions

[Xandarien]

Another question: On page 2, you have "an anírn galad i valan ah aglar en-ethad i óniel anden." I'm sure it's a typo, but would I be safe to assume that you mean anírOn?

Nope, he desired = anírn, irregular in the past tense.

And further down page 2, you have two more occurrences of in Rodyn. Ought I change this as well?

Oh pfft. I know I'm not well at the moment, but quite how I managed to change everything in my working document and then actually believe I'd updated them on here and then hadn't....
Went back through and changed a load, there were also a few e-Rodyn that snuck through, obviously that should also be idh-Rodyn (but with the - to signify 'possession' as it were, the proper word escapes me).

On page 1, you have Lind Veleg, but on page 3, you have Gling Veleg. Are both of these correct?

Lind Veleg -> Gling Veleg (hey, I did say if I missed them point them out lol)

And finally, just doing a cursory CTRL+F down the page, you have a few instances of i gling that appear to be ú-vutated (haha). Are they meant to be that way, or is that a by-product of changing out lind for gling?

Hemmed and hawwed about that one, as obviously because it's being done into Tengwar, the glottal stop disappears and it just looks like 'i ling', but probably the final conclusion is 'they should all be i 'ling' otherwise it's incorrect. If it's following 'a/ah' then 'gling' stands, as g doesn't mutate after 'a'.

Is Iâ meant to be two syllables? I ask because how I would write a preceding /i/ that functions as an English /y/-consonant is with a yanta, but that would produce "yâ" as a single syllable. I don't know whether this would be seen as two syllables or one to a native speaker. If it is meant to be two distinct syllables, I'll change the yanta to a regular short-carrier + /i/. (This question also pertains to io.)

Nah, that's one syllable, 'yah', or 'yoh' for io.

EDIT (11:45PM): Page 5 finished. I love spring break. ♥ Also personally, the i i are very confusing. At first I thought they were just typos, so I marked them, but then I realized that they aren't and they mean something like "that the" or "that who" or something along those lines. Is there any way to alter this? I think in spoken Sindarin, it would be confusing because either it would sound like î, or you'd have to take a brief stop in the flow of the words to vocalize the two separate words. Personally, I think Tolkien used i for too many things, but I can see how the meanings overlap differently than they do in English. Regardless, it seems rather impractical. :/

Yis, I know what you mean, but in situations like this:
ah in Rodyn cenir i i thîr dîn = 'and the Ainur saw that his countenance/face' - well the second 'i' is part of the pronoun. I equate it a little to German, where the verb is at the end of the sentence, you have to finish the sentence to know exactly what the person is talking about.
Die Götter werden die Sterne erhöhen = Don't know until the end of the sentence what they're doing to those stars!

If you just said 'i i' to someone in isolation, it'd probably be either a) you're stuttering 'the the' , or b) it's like a half clause that needs the rest of the sentence (go back to above argument), 'that which the'. That which the what? Who did it?

[Cillendor]

And further down page 2, you have two more occurrences of in Rodyn. Ought I change this as well?

Oh pfft. I know I'm not well at the moment, but quite how I managed to change everything in my working document and then actually believe I'd updated them on here and then hadn't....
Went back through and changed a load, there were also a few e-Rodyn that snuck through, obviously that should also be idh-Rodyn (but with the - to signify 'possession' as it were, the proper word escapes me).

So then change e-Rodyn to idh-Rodyn? Got it! And what about the examples I highlighted in the PDF of en-Rodyn? Should they be in-Rodyn or idh-Rodyn? I'm guessing the latter, and I'll make the change but still keep them marked red in case you want to change them. Then there are a few examples (also highlighted in the PDF) of i Rodyn. Is that correct?

And finally, just doing a cursory CTRL+F down the page, you have a few instances of i gling that appear to be ú-vutated (haha). Are they meant to be that way, or is that a by-product of changing out lind for gling?

Hemmed and hawwed about that one, as obviously because it's being done into Tengwar, the glottal stop disappears and it just looks like 'i ling', but probably the final conclusion is 'they should all be i 'ling' otherwise it's incorrect. If it's following 'a/ah' then 'gling' stands, as g doesn't mutate after 'a'.

I didn't find any cases of a gling, but I thought a caused lenition. Does it not? Anyway, Tengwar does have a symbol to denote a lenited /g/. It is called halla, and in Sindarin it is used for that. I don't think it can be used for other instances of apostrophes due to mutation, though. Anyway, it'll end up looking like this:

EDIT (11:45PM): Page 5 finished. I love spring break. ♥ Also personally, the i i are very confusing. At first I thought they were just typos, so I marked them, but then I realized that they aren't and they mean something like "that the" or "that who" or something along those lines. Is there any way to alter this? I think in spoken Sindarin, it would be confusing because either it would sound like î, or you'd have to take a brief stop in the flow of the words to vocalize the two separate words. Personally, I think Tolkien used i for too many things, but I can see how the meanings overlap differently than they do in English. Regardless, it seems rather impractical. :/

Yis, I know what you mean, but in situations like this:
ah in Rodyn cenir i i thîr dîn = 'and the Ainur saw that his countenance/face' - well the second 'i' is part of the pronoun. I equate it a little to German, where the verb is at the end of the sentence, you have to finish the sentence to know exactly what the person is talking about.
Die Götter werden die Sterne erhöhen = Don't know until the end of the sentence what they're doing to those stars!

If you just said 'i i' to someone in isolation, it'd probably be either a) you're stuttering 'the the' , or b) it's like a half clause that needs the rest of the sentence (go back to above argument), 'that which the'. That which the what? Who did it?

Ah, I see. Hmmm, okay. I wish Tolkien had made the subordinate conjunction to be i(h) so that it would (1) cause "H-mutation" like o(h) and (2) cause the /h/ to prefix to a subsequent vowel, which would then give us i hi—much easier for the speaking.

Sooo final question:

Besides the other questions I had related to idh Rodyn, on page 5 you have, "Dan en-gwely a gwaew Aran Einior ihdrant [sic]." I was wondering if it shouldn't be "dan in-gwely adh in-gwaew", since the "of the" is affixed to the noun. In English it reads, "But of the airs and the winds Manwë pondered," so does "of-the" cover "airs and the winds", or does "of-the" need to be restated? My suspicion is that it ought to be repeated for "the winds", but you're better at this than I am.

If Isildilmë does write it on papyrus, I hope it'll look something like this, but even cooler:

[Xandarien]

So then change e-Rodyn to idh-Rodyn? Got it! And what about the examples I highlighted in the PDF of en-Rodyn? Should they be in-Rodyn or idh-Rodyn? I'm guessing the latter, and I'll make the change but still keep them marked red in case you want to change them. Then there are a few examples (also highlighted in the PDF) of i Rodyn. Is that correct?

Yeah the en- /e- was my writing process of 'should it be e- or edh-, thus i- or idh-', any en- should also be idh-

i Rodyn? Have to have a check... oh lol, yeah, they need changing too.

I didn't find any cases of a gling, but I thought a caused lenition. Does it not? Anyway, Tengwar does have a symbol to denote a lenited /g/. It is called halla, and in Sindarin it is used for that. I don't think it can be used for other instances of apostrophes due to mutation, though. Anyway, it'll end up looking like this:

Oh, I didn't know there was an actual Tengwar sign for it, well that makes life easier!

I've thought since I first started that the blanket rule of 'a causes soft mutation' is an odd one, just from looking at Luthien's song (si loth a galadh). PE17 confirms that it has its own variant, I need to edit my soft mutation lesson on my site to update that, it's the next Sindarin thing on my list to do.

Ah, I see. Hmmm, okay. I wish Tolkien had made the subordinate conjunction to be i(h) so that it would (1) cause "H-mutation" like o(h) and (2) cause the /h/ to prefix to a subsequent vowel, which would then give us i hi—much easier for the speaking.

Hah, but where would the fun be if everything was regular? We would miss out on all the wonderful irregular verbs to memorise .

Sooo final question:

Besides the other questions I had related to idh Rodyn, on page 5 you have, "Dan en-gwely a gwaew Aran Einior ihdrant [sic]." I was wondering if it shouldn't be "dan in-gwely adh in-gwaew", since the "of the" is affixed to the noun. In English it reads, "But of the airs and the winds Manwë pondered," so does "of-the" cover "airs and the winds", or does "of-the" need to be restated? My suspicion is that it ought to be repeated for "the winds", but you're better at this than I am.

I have tried to stick to the text as faithfully as possible, and as the line by Tolkien is 'of the airs and winds', that's what I did.

------------------------------------

By the way, a big thank you to you and everybody else who has shown such support, enthusiasm and interest for this project of mine, it makes me feel like I'm actually doing something vaguely worthwhile!

[Cillendor]

So then change e-Rodyn to idh-Rodyn? Got it! And what about the examples I highlighted in the PDF of en-Rodyn? Should they be in-Rodyn or idh-Rodyn? I'm guessing the latter, and I'll make the change but still keep them marked red in case you want to change them. Then there are a few examples (also highlighted in the PDF) of i Rodyn. Is that correct?

Yeah the en- /e- was my writing process of 'should it be e- or edh-, thus i- or idh-', any en- should also be idh-

i Rodyn? Have to have a check... oh lol, yeah, they need changing too.

All changes have been made, but is there a difference in meaning between idh Rodyn and idh-Rodyn? As in, to be consistent should there be a hyphen or no hyphen?

[Xandarien]

Yis...

idh Rodyn = the Ainur
idh-Rodyn = of the Ainur

so there should be both appearing throughout.

There is a temptation to (I dislike ambiguity) just treat Rodyn as an 'R' and make it i-rodyn for 'of the Ainur'.

[Cillendor]

Yis...

idh Rodyn = the Ainur
idh-Rodyn = of the Ainur

so there should be both appearing throughout.

There is a temptation to (I dislike ambiguity) just treat Rodyn as an 'R' and make it i-rodyn for 'of the Ainur'.

As in the Doriathrin mutation? Just say the word if that's what you want. It's an easy fix.

Page 7 is transcribed to your stopping point. Also, I changed the title a little. It now reads in Sindarin: "Gling-idh-Rodyn", then in Quenya: "Ainulindalë Sindarinwa", then in English: "Song of the Ainur". See it here.

One question on page 7: You have the word anirathar. Is there supposed to be an accent over the /i/?

[Xandarien]

As in the Doriathrin mutation? Just say the word if that's what you want. It's an easy fix.

One question on page 7: You have the word anirathar. Is there supposed to be an accent over the /i/?

Yeah let's do that, I'll alter it at some point on here and in my file. Just for the 'of the' though not all the 'the's.

Finished page 7, and the first third of page 8. Nearly done... (while writing one essay on Cleopatra, one on Maria Callas, one on Plato and one on how the environment affects behaviour for psychology).

Edit - and in answer to the question, yeah the i should have the accent.

[siddharth]

Just popping in to say that I am keeping an eye on this exciting project!!
Wow, I am really amused by the amount of determination with which all of you are carrying out this!

BRAVO!!!

(*Eagerly waits for the grand finale*)

[Cillendor]

As in the Doriathrin mutation? Just say the word if that's what you want. It's an easy fix.

One question on page 7: You have the word anirathar. Is there supposed to be an accent over the /i/?

Yeah let's do that, I'll alter it at some point on here and in my file. Just for the 'of the' though not all the 'the's.

Finished page 7, and the first third of page 8. Nearly done... (while writing one essay on Cleopatra, one on Maria Callas, one on Plato and one on how the environment affects behaviour for psychology).

My gosh, you must really enjoy this writing stuff. I'm impressed.

A question I had today: is "Arda" a Quenya word? If so, I'll need to mark it like Ilúvatar and change the writing mode. (As it is, Ilúvatar is written in the Quenya mode; I'll do that for Arda too if it's not a Sindarin word.)

Other changes are finished, working on the last bit now.

[Xandarien]

Or a glutton for punishment for doing a second Bachelors, one of the two!

Yeah, Arda is Quenya, but I left it as is because the Sindarin should properly be 'Ardhon' but that in my opinion works better for cases where it is written 'the World'.
In response to your PM, hah, you're quite correct, but I have translated it, I just forgot to copy it on here! Well spotted though.

Added it in now. For an awful minute when I read my email I thought 'ah god, I translated it, don't say I've recycled it before typing it up...'

[Cillendor]

Haha it happens to the best of us, I'm sure. But in the portion you just added, is ae supposed to be changed to pe?

I know the feeling of being stressed. I'm doing a triple major right now that overlaps with itself enough to make it a waste not to do it, but is still way more work than this burnt-out, fifth-year college kid can handle.

[Xandarien]

Haha it happens to the best of us, I'm sure. But in the portion you just added, is ae supposed to be changed to pe?

I know the feeling of being stressed. I'm doing a triple major right now that overlaps with itself enough to make it a waste not to do it, but is still way more work than this burnt-out, fifth-year college kid can handle.

Aye, ae -> pe.

What's a major, asks the ignorant Scot? Degree course?

[Cillendor]

Haha it happens to the best of us, I'm sure. But in the portion you just added, is ae supposed to be changed to pe?

I know the feeling of being stressed. I'm doing a triple major right now that overlaps with itself enough to make it a waste not to do it, but is still way more work than this burnt-out, fifth-year college kid can handle.

Aye, ae -> pe.

What's a major, asks the ignorant Scot? Degree course?

Bahaha yes, in American universities we have majors and minors. Your major is your degree, and your minor (if you choose one) is an area of emphasis that can be unrelated to your major. I am majoring in Spanish Language & Literature, International Studies (focusing on Latin American studies), and Foreign Language & International Trade (which combines a business degree with a foreign language and requires business-language classes that a normal language major doesn't require). These three majors overlap so much that one can conceivably do all three of them and only take 1-2 extra semesters. My problem is that I'm trying to do this in only four years, and so the workload is crushing. At least if I graduate, I will have three bachelor degrees. :-S

[Xandarien]

Blimey okay. So completely different to our system!

Ah elo! It is finished, added the rest of page 8.

[Cillendor]

w00t!!! That is so exciting! I'll finish the Tengwar tonight after work, most likely.

EDIT: I couldn't help myself. The PDF is done! (first revision, anyway. I'll do some proofreading later to make sure there are no mistakes) You can see it here!!!

[Isildilmë]

Oh damn, I just saw all of this conversation this morning... and that I lost the opportunity to do that transcription first !
*cries a bit in a dark corner of the room*
I wish I had more time... but I have in fact less than before...
I'll check the transcription for sure, and I'll also do it with the mode of Beleriand at some point. Is everything final ? With the time I have, I would prefer to check it once ! I'll print all of that and check it in the bus or something... but I have many readings to do quick, so I may let you wait a bit, I'm sorry.

By the way, about this :

I didn't find any cases of a gling, but I thought a caused lenition. Does it not? Anyway, Tengwar does have a symbol to denote a lenited /g/. It is called halla, and in Sindarin it is used for that. I don't think it can be used for other instances of apostrophes due to mutation, though. Anyway, it'll end up looking like this:

In my readings, this use of halla is attested with the mode of Beleriand, but not with the tehtar mode. That is why I tend to put nothing in the tehtar mode... but there may have other stuff I'm not aware of.

[Cillendor]

Thanks, Isildilmë! Sorry, I didn't mean to steal your thunder, lol. I'd mentioned doing a transcription on Council of Elrond before I joined here, so I went with it. I'm not that good with Beleriand anymore, having forgotten a lot since learning the tehtar mode, so I'd love to see your version of that.

I have not done any proofreading with it yet. It's still in the first draft, but it would probably benefit from a second set of eyes rather than my own going over it. Looking at large chucks of Tengwar is making them tired, lol. I'm not sure if Xandarien's post is fully up-to-date, but one word change that she made that wasn't discussed in here is changing arnediad to arnoediad, lending to the text's age.

Ugh I hope you're wrong about halla, lol. I use it liberally because I don't see how anyone could know what the original word should be without it. Granted, you could just know when the mutation is applied and mentally work backward to figure it out, but if, for example, ling were a word, then you'd have no way of knowing apart from context. Taking it out won't be that hard, but it would be most unfortunate.

If you would rather go through the document instead of a PDF copy, I can email you the OpenOffice document. Note that you need Tengwar Telcontar installed; I haven't seen you use it before in your transcriptions. It is very different from the other Tengwar fonts and doesn't use Dan Smith's layout. To be honest, once you go Telcontar, it's hard to go back.

Two final notes, if you have any better idea on how to handle quotations, I'd love to know. I made the arbitrary choice of using :· and intending the quoted text, but in Quenya101's translation of this text, he used italics on Tengwar Annatar. I tried mixing the two fonts for the same effect, but they didn't look good together. And one other semi-arbitrary move I made was to introduce hyphenated word breaks in longer words if they interfered with the spacing when the text is justified. I used ≈ for that. According to Måns Björkman it is attested, but I don't know if that includes in Sindarin or not. It may be me imposing my English preferences upon the language, but I'd be totally lost as to the meaning without it. If you think it shouldn't be there, though, I can remove it.

[Isildilmë]

I'll have to think about all this cleaning my mind from the rest

For halla, I know what you mean, and I think partly the same, but at the same time, I guess that even if there was no indication of the elision, an Elf would know... see what I mean. We may compare that with two English words sounding exactly the same (in French we call them "homophones", I don't know if that word is good in English too)... if we write them in Tengwar using a phonetical mode, which Tolkien might have done at some points of his life, how can we know what we are talking about ? Well, we just know, if we understand English, and with the context.

I'll find a discussion I had about apostrophes in Tehtar modes with somebody and I'll try to get you back with that.

I think it might be usefull to have your original document. I think I have T.Telcontar downloaded, if not that shouldn't be a problem. No I don't use it for my transcriptions here, because I use Dan smith's layout fonts... I'm used to them, and at least it's easy to switch from one to the other without having to start over.

We might discuss punctuations at some point, but the more I know about Tolkien, the more I realise that punctuations didn't seem to be a great deal for him... he didn't seem to care about them a lot. In many texts, he just didn't use any, and in early times he used regular roman punctuations mixed with Tengwar... so I guess he wouldn't be very agressive on that point... and I'll think of the quotations... maybe if we had them just in italic, not necessarely in another font ? I don't know, I have to look first, and to think, and then I may have suggestions... but of course no truth !