M-E & Tolkien Trivia (Third Continuation Thread)

[Minasring]

Can I try once more? My first guess was wrong so I stand corrected.I think it has something to do with translation when there shouldn't be one. If 'Balin' is written on tomb and it's English then maybe that's it. Do I hit near the mark?

[Melwa]

I think I might have it. Gandalf says it is written in two languages, but we see only one.

[solicitr]

Minasring: close enough! I'll score it a win.

Here's the transliteration:

BALIN SON OF FUNDIN
LORD OF MORIA
BALIN FUNDINUL UZBAD KHAZADDUMU

The problem here is that the first two lines are in English-- not in Westron, as they necessarily would have been (the same problem affects the "pages from the Book of Mazarbul.") And, yes, the names "Balin" and "Fundin" pose a related problem, since according to the 'fiction of translation' Tolkien converted their actual outer-names in the tongue of Dale into names from Old Norse.

[siddharth]

Shall we give a shoutout to Minasring?

[Minasring]

I'm sorry for taking so long to reply. Actually, I had to write an essay and it took awhile. It's been some time since I last read LOTR and Appendices so I didn't think I would win. But I was and still am thrilled to play this game so thank you,Solicitr for accepting my answer.
My question is:How old was Elanor when Samwise went to Grey Havens?
PS. I hope it is good question.

[siddharth]

No problem, Minasring.

Is it around 60 or something? I remember Elanor was born the year third age ended. i.e. S.R. 1421. I don't remember accurately when Sam sailed away. Most probably around the 1480s, IIRC.

[Melwa]

Do you mean when Sam accompanied Frodo to the Grey Havens, or when he departed for the West himself?

[Minasring]

Melwa, I mean when Sam departed for the West himself.
Siddharth, she is more or less 60 as Sam sailed away in S.R. 1482 so it's your turn.

[siddharth]

Okey-dokey then.

Question: Name all the types of trolls mentioned by JRRT, without any online help. (this excludes half-trolls)

Bonus question: When in LOTR does Sam calls someone else a "ninnyhammer" ?

[solicitr]

Okey-dokey then.

Question: Name all the types of trolls mentioned by JRRT, without any online help. (this excludes half-trolls)

Bonus question: When in LOTR does Sam say "Ninny-hammers"?

1) Tom, Bert and William, who aren't distinguished except as "trolls." May fit under #2
2) Hill-trolls; said to have killed one of the Chieftains of Arnor
3) Cave-trolls; one encountered in Moria
4) Mountain-trolls; wielded Grond
5) Olog-hai, new-breed fighting trolls; one killed by Pippin

[siddharth]

Good job solicitr. But that's kinda incomplete.
Just a small hint. Tom, Bert and Will may fit into another category.

The bonus question anybody?

[Melwa]

I don't know the bonus. I'll look through LOTR and see if I can find it . . .

[Voronwe_the_Faithful]

There isn't any time that Sam calls someone else "Ninnyhammer". Frodo offers to have Sam call him that name if he can think of a way that they could have gotten down the cliff-face without using the rope, but Sam never does so.

[solicitr]

Good job solicitr. But that's kinda incomplete.
Just a small hint. Tom, Bert and Will may fit into another category.

Well, they're called Stone-trolls in the LR; but that's post-facto given their status as statuary.

[siddharth]

So, stone-trolls aren't different from hill-trolls?
Anyway, solicitr gets the next turn!

Sam does say: "You're nowt but a ninnyhammer, Sam Gamgee; it's what the gaffer said to me often enough...." But Sam never calls anyone "ninnyhammer". So the answer of course is "never". Voronwe got the bonus right.

Your turn, solicitr.

[solicitr]

OK-- where in the LR does Tolkien first use the name "Rohirrim" ?

[siddharth]

At the Council of Elrond? When Gandalf recalls his meeting with Shadowfax?

[Parmamaite]

I do think that Sam uses the term "ninnyhammer" on someone else. When Frodo and Sam manage to get down from Emyn Muil, Sam exclaims "Ninnyhammers!", which surely must refer to both himself and Frodo:

But Sam did not answer: he was staring back up the cliff. `Ninnyhammers! ' he said. `Noodles! My beautiful rope! There it is tied to a stump, and we're at the bottom. Just as nice a little stair for that slinking Gollum as we could leave. Better put up a signpost to say which way we've gone! I thought it seemed a bit too easy.'
`If you can think of any way we could have both used the rope and yet brought it down with us, then you can pass on to me ninnyhammer, or any other name your Gaffer gave you,' said Frodo. `Climb up and untie it and let yourself down, if you want to!'

[Voronwe_the_Faithful]

I don't think so. I think in that case he is just using the term as a general term of frustration, just as he is also using the term "Noodles!". At least, that is how I have always interpreted it.

[Roccondil]

With an interesting word like ninnyhammer, I always wonder whether Tom Shippey has had something to say on the matter, and in fact he spends a couple of pages on it in his "Roots and Branches" collection. In summary the word normally means a 'simpleton' or someone who is 'unfit for practical purposes' or, Shippey suggests with an interesting etymological leap, someone who is bird-brained.

Sam cries 'Ninnyhammers!' when he thinks they cannot retrieve the rope and to my mind he is clearly referring to both himself and Frodo as being impractical and stupid for not having thought this through.

[FrodoTook]

solicitr asked...

where in the LR does Tolkien first use the name "Rohirrim" ?

Sid replied...

At the Council of Elrond? When Gandalf recalls his meeting with Shadowfax?

=========

solicitr

Is Sid correct?

[solicitr]

Oh, sorry: yes. Sid got it.

Actually my original intent with that one was to pose a trick question, with the covert meaning "at what point did Tolkien first write the name (it was an addition to a late rewrite of the Council of Elrond, long after he had coined it in the middle of Book III *after* 'The Riders of Rohan; the word doesn't appear in that chapter!); but then it struck me that was too picayune and required a pretty recondirte familiarity with HME, so instead I left it to be read literally, which made it pretty easy.

Go ahead, Sid.


-------------------------
(Note: PJ screwed up here, too, in having the Riders refer to *themselves* as "Rohirrim," which of course they didn't.)

[siddharth]

Okay.

Here's one:

Mouth of Sauron: Black Numenorean. In the Third Age (and perhaps in the Second as well) he served Sauron, rising in his service because of his cunning and evil. He became a great sorcerer, which is how he preserved his life for thousands of years. By the time of the War of the Ring he had become the Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dur and had forgotten his real name...

The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth

What's wrong with the statement?

[solicitr]

You mean, besides the bald and completely unsupported assertion that he had "preserved his life for thousands of years?" (As well as the suggestion, at least qualified with a 'perhaps,' that he dated from the Second Age).

Tolkien tells us that he had entered the service of the Dark Tower "when first it rose again;" Barad-dur only 'rose' twice: once when first built in the mid-Second Age, and "again" after Sauron's removal from Dol Guldur and return to Mordor some seventy years before. We needn't boggle over seven decades if the man was in fact of Numenorean lineage.

[Melwa]

I thought all the Numenoreans who had been on the side of Sauron died when Numenor was destroyed? Also, his being a "great sorcerer who had preserved his life for hundreds of years," sounds an awful lot like the longevity given with the Rings, which paints him as something like a Nazgul.

[solicitr]

The "King's Men" controlled colonies in Umbar and points south, just as the Faithful controlled Pelargir. It was those colonists whose descendants were the Black Numenoreans (re-inforced later by refugees from the Castamir faction of the Kin-strife).

[siddharth]

Solicitr has got it again!

The age of men is always fixed and so no man, howsoever powerful could prolong his life.

Go on solicitr.

[solicitr]

OK-

Sam is always talking about his Uncle Andy near Tighfield. What was Andy's occupation? (Not just the name of it, I'm looking for what he did).

[Morwenna]

He made rope.

[solicitr]

Bingo. Prob. too easy, but I've always been amused that a lot of people (including my child self) thought a "rope-walk" is some sort of tightrope act.