TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

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TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

Postby Notta Hobbit » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:41 pm

Summary

Frodo is wakened by Faramir, who shows him Gollum fishing in the big pool. Frodo lures Gollum back until he can be captured and blinded by the men. He is brought back into the cave and questioned, then released into Frodo's custody. The hobbits are given the freedom of Gondor for a year and a day. Frodo describes the route they plan to take into Mordor, and Faramir names it Cirith Ungol. He doesn't know anything specific against it other than its evil reputation. Frodo maintains that there is no other way and he must go there, and Faramir unwillingly relents.

Questions

1. Gollum actually still trusts Frodo a little bit, eh? He's not stupid, so it must be trust. Or is there some other reason for him to allow himself to be "lured"?
2. Note that the moon is still full.
3. Wikipedia says of Faramir, "Tolkien wrote that Faramir was used to giving way and not airing his own opinions." Do we see that in this chapter?
4. Faramir was originally going to Rivendell to illuminate his dreams, but Boromir went instead, fearing for Faramir's safety. How could he have been so wrong?

Sorry for the extra questions about Faramir! He just charms me no end.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

Postby siddharth » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:20 am

Yup. Faramir is such a likable character. ;)

Q.1 There's no reason for him to get caught. So I believe it was not intentional. Well I believe he followed Frodo for two reasons. the Gollum part was chasing after the Ring and was going to search for Frodo anyway after eating his fish. He searched for the Ring for 60 years and it would be really absurd if he left it like that. And the second, the Smeagol part still trusted Frodo, as you pointed. We'll see more examples of that later. Frodo's caring and pity had moved the Smeagol part since he was lonely for a terribly long time and had forgotten the word "love". Frodo's sympathy re-ignited his hobbit senses which had been dormant. That's my theory.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

Postby Morwenna » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:55 pm

I agree with Sid about Gollum.

I have no idea about the moon.

Was Boromir concerned about Faramir's safety? I don't know. I do suspect that he wanted the task because he was, if not a show-off, at least a spirited guy who was gung-ho for adventure. If their positions had been reversed, the story would have had many different turns; there's a thread out there somewhere which speculates on this.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

Postby siddharth » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:26 pm

Nottahobbit, I am a bit confused about what you are asking in Q.4
Who was wrong about what? Perhaps you're asking why Faramir let Boromir go? If that's it, then I think it was Denethor (their father) who bade Boromir to go instead of Faramir(again I'm not very sure about this. It's been a long time since I've read the appendices). Faramir couldn't have gone against the order, I suppose.
Last edited by siddharth on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

Postby Notta Hobbit » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:44 pm

Siddharth, what I meant by question 4 was this: Assuming, as Tolkien tells us, that Boromir thought he should be the one to go to Rivendell because the trip would be too dangerous for Faramir (not to mention the showing-off part, of course, but I think he thought that kind of thing was his "place"), it turns out that it's Boromir who's not equal to the task in the end. Of course, he had no way of knowing just what Isildur's Bane really was. . .

On another topic--who else thinks Boromir and Faramir had nicknames for each other when they were kids? Bore and Farr? Bee and Eff? Ren and Stimpy?
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

Postby siddharth » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:16 am

Ah, okay then.
Boromir was too proud. He thought too highly of himself. So, Boromir wished to set out for Rivendell. But he had actually set out to find out his riddle's answer and never thought that he would join a quest to destroy the Ring. Of course, he joined the Fellowship because again he was too proud. And proud about Gondor and it's heritage. Also, I think he never got the idea of the Ring's true potential to corrupt souls. Because of these reasons I think he succumbed to the Ring much faster than others.

On another topic--who else thinks Boromir and Faramir had nicknames for each other when they were kids? Bore and Farr? Bee and Eff? Ren and Stimpy?


I like the idea. :D Bore and Farr? :lol: How about Oro and Ara? ;)
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

Postby Morwenna » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:18 am

siddharth wrote:
On another topic--who else thinks Boromir and Faramir had nicknames for each other when they were kids? Bore and Farr? Bee and Eff? Ren and Stimpy?


I like the idea. :D Bore and Farr? :lol: How about Oro and Ara? ;)


Better than Bobo and Fafa. :D

ETA: If Boromir had been more of a student, as Faramir was, he might have learned from the old records in Minas Tirith about Isildur's Bane, just as Gandalf did. :)
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

Postby siddharth » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:20 am

Morwenna wrote:
siddharth wrote:
On another topic--who else thinks Boromir and Faramir had nicknames for each other when they were kids? Bore and Farr? Bee and Eff? Ren and Stimpy?


I like the idea. :D Bore and Farr? :lol: How about Oro and Ara? ;)


Better than Bobo and Fafa. :D

ETA: If Boromir had been more of a student, as Faramir was, he might have learned from the old records in Minas Tirith about Isildur's Bane, just as Gandalf did. :)



Hey, that's a good point! I never thought of that. And also Faramir too knew about "Isildur's bane" but still he couldn't guess it was the One Ring. Gandalf must have searched the vaults really hard I guess.
PS: I laughed hard at Bobo!!! :lol:
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

Postby Arvegil » Tue May 07, 2013 9:11 am

Wikipedia says of Faramir, "Tolkien wrote that Faramir was used to giving way and not airing his own opinions." Do we see that in this chapter?

Well, we see someone who is more interested in obtaining information than he is in sharing it. Faramir approaches Frodo's story the same way a modern intelligence officer would: he tries to sort out the true and meaningless (most of the stuff the soldiers want to hear), and takes careful notice of what Frodo is not saying.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

Postby Notta Hobbit » Tue May 07, 2013 8:24 pm

Yes, he's very good at that, isn't he? He doesn't miss anything.

I was thinking about the "Isildur's Bane" poem, and it occurred to me that because it says the bane will "waken," it would have been very difficult for anyone to figure out that it was an object, not a living creature. Funny I never thought about that before.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

Postby Morwenna » Thu May 09, 2013 4:45 am

You just reminded me of something.

So many threads in Books have looked at the properties of the Ring, and why it didn't show itself as nasty as it could be before the actions in LOTR. Well, doesn't that poem tell the tale? Something happens either during the beginning of, or right before, the action in the story to "waken" it. Maybe it's being out from Gollum's mountain, or maybe it's Sauron's realizing that it's still available somewhere, or maybe any combination of things.
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Re: TTT, Book 4, Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool

Postby Arvegil » Fri May 10, 2013 4:51 pm

Notta Hobbit wrote:Yes, he's very good at that, isn't he? He doesn't miss anything.

I was thinking about the "Isildur's Bane" poem, and it occurred to me that because it says the bane will "waken," it would have been very difficult for anyone to figure out that it was an object, not a living creature. Funny I never thought about that before.


Although the fact that he was interested in learning about Gondor's ancient history from Gandalf might mean that he was pointed in the right direction from Gandalf.
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