justice

[redrobot]

most of the realms in middle earth are kingdoms and kings are there to exercise justice when necessary. the shire however is not a kingdom. how is justice dispensed there? if pippin and merry had been caught stealing carrots what wd have happened. if smiegel had been a hobbit and murdered his fishing companion on a hobbiton riverbank what wd have happened if he'd been caught? the hobbits seem to operate without government. without law. anarchist hobbits?

[RoseMorninStar]

The Thain would setting disputes if needed & was considered the military authority in the Shire. "The Hobbits first chose a Thain to "hold the authority of the king" when Arvedui, last King of Arnor, was lost and the kingship in the North discontinued."

[redrobot]

SO WAS THAT A HOBBIT THAIN, A HOBBIT KING? authority seems at odds with the hobbit character.

[RoseMorninStar]

Holding the authority of the King and being a King are two different things. There were also Shirriffs and a Mayor.

"The position of Shirriff was a voluntary honor. There were a total of twelve Shirriffs, three for each Farthing, though more could be called up in time of need (as happened around TA 3001). The only thing that differentiated Shirriffs from other Hobbits was a feather they were given to wear in their hats. The Shirriffs carried no arms or armament of any sort and wore no uniform. There was also a 'Master of Buckland'.

Some time after returning from the war of the Ring (and the Scouring of the Shire) Peregrin 'Pippin' Took inherited the title/office of Thain from his father, becoming the 32nd Thain of the Shire. He held that position for 50+ years.

[redrobot]

was the king of arnor a hobbit?

[siddharth]

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_Shire

[redrobot]

link doesnt tell me if king was a hobbit

[siddharth]

Oh it can't tell you, you'll have to read it.

[redrobot]

read the book you mean? the gateway doesnt say if the kings were men or otherwise. experts taking knowledge for granted. not helpful.

[heliona]

The King was a Man.

[redrobot]

ok, so hobbits were subject to a king who was a man. are there any other examples of one race subjugating another?

[wilko185]

"Subjugate" (= place under the yoke) is not actually a derivative of "subject" (= that which is placed under).

Anyway, in the context of the film universe (bearing in mind which forum we are in), these are not readily answerable questions. Your ideas about whether there might be off-screen lynch mobs or despots are as valid as anyone else's. Go nuts!

However, if you want to move to the book world, then we have a lot of explaining to do

[redrobot]

the subjugate thing was a personal statement as i consider all regal systems to be subjugation. someone more privileged and powerful than another based on accident of birth? i think not. i wd probably give the books a go if i thought i cd succeed in reading them.

at present i'm committing the heresy of trying to use book details to illuminate film questions

[heliona]

Have you tried audiobooks? I've found that sometimes I can concentrate more on the subject matter if I hear it than read it. Just curious. It perhaps might be a way to discover the nuances found in books that are open to individual interpretation and imagination and thus can't be explained by another to one's satisfaction.

[redrobot]

hmm. not sure i wd like the intermediary of an actor tho it wd be a way to assimilate the text without having to read it. perhaps i shd buy a copy of one of the books and see how i do.

[heliona]

I too have been wary of actors' voices putting me off listening to audiobooks, but the copies I've heard of Tolkien's works (various copies of The Hobbit, LotR, and The Silmarillion) weren't bad and was pleasantly surprised. It is fortunately only one reader narrating the entire book. I can't get through the BBC radio dramatisation of Lord of the Rings although other people say it is excellent.

It might be worth a try - I find audiobooks rather relaxing.

[redrobot]

I find audiobooks rather relaxing.

and i find the company of other people - actor's voices included - start to give me hellish visions after a little while.

[RoseMorninStar]

It might be worth a try - I find audiobooks rather relaxing.

Perhaps too relaxing, especially if well read in a pleasant voice. It would make me drowsy. I know people who really enjoy listening to audio books in the car, but I absorb much better through tactile or visual disciplines, audio being my poorest form of taking in anything.

[heliona]

and i find the company of other people - actor's voices included - start to give me hellish visions after a little while.

Okay then. I was only trying to help with that suggestion.

Rose, I find that too, at least when I'm in bed. An audiobook will send me off to sleep. (I used to listen to Nicol Williamson's version of The Hobbit all the time - it was abridged and was nice and short.) Although I've listened to The Silmarillion in the car and that was brilliant.

Anyway, this is off topic. Perhaps we should start a thread about audiobooks in the Books forum.

[wilko185]

the subjugate thing was a personal statement as i consider all regal systems to be subjugation.

Ok, but my point was just that this is indeed just your own view. Kingship doesn't generally or necessarily imply "subjugation", and it's certainly not a position that the books or films hold. So to ask "are there any other examples of one race subjugating another?" is begging the question.

As to the identity of the mysterious King, I thought the title of film 3 was a bit of a clue?

If it makes you feel any better, at the end of the book we learn that Aragorn makes a law forbidding Men to enter the Shire:

Our King, we call him; and when he comes north to his house in Annuminas restored and stays for a while by Lake Evendim, then everyone in the Shire is glad. But he does not enter this land and binds himself by the law that he has made, that none of the Big People shall pass its borders.

[redrobot]

Kingship doesn't generally or necessarily imply "subjugation",

it always does to me. the free dicionary defines subjugation in the following way -

1. To bring under control, especially by military force; conquer.
2. To make subordinate or subject to the dominion of something else:

a king's subjects are always controlled and made subordinate. the very essence of kingship is that it relies on the subordination of others.

i take it that you mean happy citizens supporting their king are not subjugatred. they are. they just dont mind

[wilko185]

So which definition are you using? When you say "subjugate", people will naturally assume you mean the primary definition. To my mind that doesn't apply to all cases of kingship, in particular the one under discussion. If you actually meant the secondary definition then you are being a bit misleading, and are really just giving a tautology: i.e. kings rule over people, by definition.

redrobot, I hope you don't take offence at the following observations, but ... from this thread and also some others of yours that I've read, I think your particular approach to what is essentially a fantasy story is piling up problems for you. You are not a monarchist, so monarchy in Middle-earth is wrong; you have a view on what an English mythlogy should look like, so Tolkien's mythology (which is merely dedicated "to" England btw, it's not strictly meant to be English per se) is inconsistent; you don't eat meat, so eating meat in Middle-earth is wrong; you see a health and safety issue when people eat bread in the wrong way, so ... etc. If you don't at least to some degree let go of your own positions and buy into the world of the story, you're going to be constantly butting heads with the author/filmaker. Escapism isn't the whole point of the experience, but it's a definite element that I wonder if you're missing out on in some way.

[redrobot]

you are being a bit misleading

i am using language accurately to describe a situation. i realise it is a fine point of understanding, which is why i have explained it.

kings rule over people, by definition

and they have armies to enforce that rule, hence subjugation. it is not subjugation by bloody force, it is subjugation by threat of force or by tradition and institutionalisation. a hungry peasant will always be subjugated by his well fed, jewel encrusted king.

escapism

i watched the films as escapism and in some ways it succeeded and in others it didnt, nmamle when the suspension of disbelief was broken by something poorly done or obnoxious etc. the films turn on the idea of charming mild mannered hobbits yet i cd see from the bacon references and the pig being dragged tro hobbiton that pig slaughter - with ye olde knife to the throat - wd have to be a shire reality, that hobbits were not in fact mild mannered , by force of consequence, but happy little animal killers. and that fact turns them into something else. cynical, ruthless, callous.

of course i watch movies informed by my cultural knowledge and views. the factr that you arent appalled by the hobbits' diet just shows your own extremism which is made to seem un-extreme by the fact it is a majority view. i am pointing out that the majority is wrong.

[Aravar]

. a hungry peasant will always be subjugated by his well fed, jewel encrusted king.

Especially if the peasant's only eating vegetables, while the king has ample, nutritious, sources of animal protein.

[redrobot]

Especially if the peasant's only eating vegetables, while the king has ample, nutritious, sources of animal protein.

yes, vegetables are far lower in protein - 3g / 100g for spinach, 36g / 100g for beef.

but processing vegetables can vastly increase protein content so that tofu for example has the same protein content as beef. tofu has been around for 2000 years so ancient cultures were capable of creating high protein vegetable foods. and these days peasants can go to holland and barrett and get protein supplements

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[wilko185]

RR: The point of language generally, and the point of us posting on this board, is to effectively communicate our ideas, so that we may then understand each other, and perhap learn something or change each others minds. In the specific example of what you mean by the word "subjugate", when pressed you have presented two dictionary definitions of the word, and then left me to guess from context that you mean the less obvious one. So .. no, you've not been very accurate.

By the way, the way you define "extremism" - which seems to be "distant from redrobot's point of view", instead of the more usual "distant from the norm" - kind of illustrates my point about how you seem to be viewing everything, even fictional things, purely in reference to your own morality with no allowances for other perspectives.

[White Shadow]

redrobot, if your posting about Vegan Protein Powder was in response to a specific post, then please indicate it, perhaps by quoting what you are specifically replying to. Posting as you have done makes it seem as though you are posting merely to advertise, which is not allowed on this messageboard.

~~~~
White Shadow

White Council Moderator

[redrobot]

protein powder post amended

[White Shadow]

Thank you, that is much better.

~~~~
White Shadow

White Council Moderator

[oldtoby]

i am pointing out that the majority is wrong.

If eating meat is wrong, baby, I don't wanna be right.