Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

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Son of Fingon
1
20%
Son of Orodreth
4
80%
 
Total votes : 5

Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Elaini » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:21 am

I thought I'd post this poll in a few sites, being very interested in the results in each.

As you may know, after the Silmarillion was published, Christopher Tolkien revised the story, saying that Gil-galad being Fingon's son was an "editorial mistake" and claimed that he was Orodreth's. However, there are few pros in Gil-galad being the son of Fingon that make quite a bit of sense:

  • His history is far more defined than it would be as the son of Orodreth. We would have more lore to grasp.
  • No source ever mentioned that Finduilas had a brother, and what his role was in Nargothrond.
  • His claim for the High King crown would be stronger. If he was the son of Orodreth, Galadriel's claim as a High Queen would probably be stronger instead by the order of succession. She would be older generation within the same House.

So I asked about this from Corey Olsen "the Tolkien Professor". His answer was that both answers were true in one point, and Tolkien never truly settled the matter, with Gil-galad being relatively late arrival in the legendarium.

So, cast your votes please.
Last edited by Elaini on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby heliona » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:27 pm

Elaini, there is actually a polling option. If you edit your post, underneath the posting box is a tab that says "Poll creation" and you can create one there if you like. :)

I'll be interested to see what people say. I shall ponder it and get back to you.
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Elaini » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:55 pm

Okay, done. :)
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Galin » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:33 am

I think Gil-galad's a Finarfinian, given the external history here and Tolkien's last known idea.

But yes, this idea (and not that unexpectedly in my opinion) needed to be integrated with already written tales. Finduilas even says that she wished she had a brother so... valiant... or something (see the link), but this never being published in any case, by Tolkien himself I mean, could easily be revised.

I think there's a question with respect to Orodreth/Arothir's treatment of Turin, but if you are bored enough to read the thread I'm linking to below, you can see that not everyone thought that was as problematic as I... did... which, now that I read it again, has me rethinking the matter in any case.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=104639

And I'm not sure if the matter of the Eldarin passing of kingship is resolved to a certainty, in general and with respect to the Galadriel question. I think there's another thread about that in these forums... somewhere.

Or somewhere else :)

I recall quoting William Hicklin in it anyway!
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:33 am

I think this is what you may be referring to, Galin.
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Galin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:58 pm

Hmm, I think the thread was older VF, but anyway I found my quoting of WCH back in 2012 (the thread you linked to started in 2016):

Tolkien also decided to make Gil-galad a Finarfinian as the son of Arothir (Orodreth), who himself was moved down a generation to being Angrod's son. So Angrod -- Orodreth -- Gil-galad instead of (as in the 1977 Silmarillion) Fingon -- Gil-galad.
On the web, Solicitr noted (I think he might be William Hicklin, but I'm not sure):


Solicitr wrote: 'Perhaps the law was simply 'the eldest male member of the Royal House in Middle-earth.' Elves didn't have to worry about an older generation being short-lived! Therefore Turgon would come before GG [Gil-galad], no matter who GG's father was, and GG would then be senior to Earendil. (...)

An observation on 'male primogeniture:' I don't think it quite fits the given accounts (any of them) to impose the Salic Law on the Eldarin royal houses. The more I revolve the claim of kingship as it in fact passed (and didn't pass), the more I am convinced that Kingship among the Elves could pass in the female line, but not to a female: she would preserve it for her male descendants. (...)

We are still left with the singular exception of Elrond, who was the very last male descendant of Finwe in M-E, and whose Fingolfinian claim was actually superior to Gil-Galad's (except of course that he hadn't been born when G-G took the title). It seems to me that, as a best guess, Elrond just didn't want the job- preferring (by medieval analogy) to be Archbishop rather than King.


Of course I didn't say where on the web. Is WCH Solicitr here? Anyway, if this is in the linked thread... then yes there too :D
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:32 am

Yes, solictr is WCH.
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Elaini » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:27 am

The sites I posted this poll to (if you're curious):

TheOneRing.com
Council of Elrond
Lotr Plaza
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Otaku-sempai » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:44 am

I tend to favor the published legendarium to revisions that Tolkien considered but never formally adopted. In addition to this particular question: Celeborn remains a Sinda Elf and a prince of Doriath, not a Telerin Elf that came to Middle-earth with Galadriel.
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Elaini » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:41 am

Otaku-sempai wrote:I tend to favor the published legendarium to revisions that Tolkien considered but never formally adopted. In addition to this particular question: Celeborn remains a Sinda Elf and a prince of Doriath, not a Telerin Elf that came to Middle-earth with Galadriel.


If Celeborn was from Alqualondë, Galadriel would probably have never crossed the Helcaraxë, as she was meant to lead the Noldor there with Fingolfin and Finrod. And if she fought the Noldor in Alqualondë, would she have remained in speaking terms with her own kind?
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Galin » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:13 am

There are two late texts that have Galadriel fighting at Swanhaven. In The Shibboleth of Feanor, dated "1968 or later" (UT and POME): Galadriel is still part of the Rebellion, and fought "fiercely" in defense of the Teleri.

In the very late "adumbrated" story (Unfinished Tales) she still fights "heroically" at Swanhaven, as she was there at the time. In this text Galadriel was not part of the Rebellion (contradicts author-published text), and ultimately sailed to Middle-earth with a Telerin Telporno/Celeborn (contradicts author-published text as to Celeborn's Sindarin status).

I'm with Otaku in any case. In my Middle-earth Galadriel was banned for her role in the rebellion (RGEO), and met the Sinda Celeborn in Middle-earth (LOTR first edition, RGEO), who then did not return West directly with Galadriel (LOTR), in any event.

And I agree with Christopher Tolkien's handling of this for the 1977 Silmarillion.
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Elaini » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:59 pm

Lotr further reinforces the idea of Galadriel's ban. She prayed for Frodo to go to Valinor because she was uncertain that she would return here. She already had rejected the pardon once.
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Eldorion » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:55 pm

I believe this is the thread Galin is referring to:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=95827&start=90

solicitr wrote:An observation on 'male primogeniture:' I don't think it quite fits the given accounts (any of them) to impose the Salic Law on the Eldarin royal houses. The more I revolve the claim of kingship as it in fact passed (and didn't pass), the more I am convinced that Kingship among the Elves could pass in the female line, but not to a female: she would preserve it for her male descendants. If this is the case then it makes perfect sense why Dior is Thingol's Heir, not Luthien; that Earendil son of Idril rules at the Havens (and that his wife Elwing was not "Queen" of the Sindarin majority there), and that T never even considers Galadriel as being a claimant. (Perhaps one reason he dumped Amroth as G & C's son is that Amroth would have suddenly become a claimant- instead, G has a daughter, who has a daughter...whose son Eldarion 'scion of Elves' is considerd the ruler of Middle-earth's remaining Eldar.).

We are still left with the singular exception of Elrond, who was the very last male descendant of Finwe in M-E, and whose Fingolfinian claim was actually superior to Gil-Galad's (except of course that he hadn't been born when G-G took the title). It seems to me that, as a best guess, Elrond just didn't want the job- preferring (by medieval analogy) to be Archbishop rather than King.


solicitr wrote:It may be significant that Earendil was said to be "lord of the people" at Sirion's Mouths (admittedly from the very old QN)- which suggests that there may heve been divided loyalties at work. The folks at Siron's Mouths were the remnants of Doriath and Gondolin: the latter would have accepted Earendil as Turgon's grandson, and the former would have been subject to Elwing. There is however nothing about the population of Balar. Cirdan probably would have deferred to Thingol's Heir; but what of the Noldor? Gil-Galad Fingonion would have had a senior claim---but then again, his claim would actually have been senior to Turgon's as well. Gil-galad Rodrethion would arguably have an inferior claim- or would he?

Perhaps the law was simply "the eldest male member of the Royal House in Middle-earth." Elves didn't have to worry about an older generation being short-lived! Therefore Turgon would come before GG, no matter who GG's father was, and GG would then be senior to Earendil.

The whole damn problem of course would be much simpler if JRRT had merely postponed GG's assertion of kingship until after the War of Wrath- he's the last one standing. (I agree that Maedhros' quitclaim shut out the Feanorian branch for good).

We know that Turgon was considered to have no heir, because he had only one daughter and a dead wife. So, I agree that daughters did not inherit. But we also know that Maeglin fancied becoming Turgon's heir by marrying Idril. So, would a daughter's husband inherit? Or was he hoping to be the father of Turgon's heir? Or was he just nuts? And what was his own position as sister-son to Turgon, anyway?


Maeglin was Fingolfin's grandson- so he's certainly in the mix. Again, a claim superior to any Finarfinian? Maybe. He would have said so! However, Maeglin doubtless would have been faced with considerable opposition- not just from Noldorin 'racists' who would reject any half-Sinda, but from many who would consider him effectively a bend-sinister, the product more of rape than legitimate marriage. "Those who steal the daughters of the Noldor...do not gain kinship with their kin." Marrying Idril, whose son would be Turgon's direct heir, would certainly shore up his claim (think Henry VII marrying Elizabeth of York). But naturally that big lug Tuor and his brat had to be removed....
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Voronwe_the_Faithful » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:42 am

That was a fun one!
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Galin » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:25 am

That's it Eldo! Thanks.

There's an arguably problematic line in LOTR concerning Galadriel's ban. At the time the Noldor were pardoned Galadriel was not, so basically she pridefully rejects something she wasn't really offered (spell check is telling me "pridefully" is not an adverb but I don't care; if it's not it should be)...

... but after her rejection of the One Galadriel says: "I past the test," she said. "I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."

As if she knows she can return West.

With a further detail being: this is said before her songs in the next chapter, which Tolkien (in RGEO) refers to while explaining Galadriel's ban. Since these works are both author-published, I have worked this out to my own satisfaction in an internal way, but it does seem a bit of an odd thing for Nerwen to say at this point.

(the external scenario ignored here).
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Postby Morgoth Bauglir » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:10 pm

orodreth
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby eldar-flower » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:07 pm

There are actually three versions of them.
One early version he is a descendant of Feanor. In this case, I would imagine he is son of Caranthir or Maglor since they at least have wives.
As for the other two, I would say he probably is son of Orodreth, because Turgon took the high kingship after Fingon died. If He is son of Fingon, then Turgon is a usurper.
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby MithLuin » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:03 pm

Thanks for bringing up that old thread, Galin! *grin*

Elaini, Corey Olsen discussed the parentage of Gil-galad briefly in conjunction with his own Silmarillion Film Project. While he has not made a definitive decision yet, he does favor the characterization of Fingon as a father. But the storyline has not yet reached the point where Fingolfin is declared High King of the Exiled Noldor in Beleriand in the Silmarillion Film Project (that will be a Season 4 opener), so there is plenty of time to consider different ideas concerning Gil-galad's parentage. Tolkien's ideas shifted from having him be a grandson of Fëanor, to having him be a son of Finrod or Orodreth, with a brief consideration as a son of Fingon. While all of these ideas have reasons behind them, none of them is a perfect fit. Consistently, he had a young Gil-galad sent away to the Havens to keep him out of the wars that destroyed the rest of the Noldor. So, he naturally doesn't play a very significant role in the First Age.

Here is the Silm Film messageboard discussion on Gil-galad's parentage. You'll note some familiar arguments from me on the topic, I think!
https://forums.signumuniversity.org/ind ... galad.688/
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Re: Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?

Postby Elaini » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:22 am

Here are the results for this poll that I could gather...

Council of Elrond:

Fingon 5
Orodreth 1

TheOneRing.com:

Fingon 1
Orodreth 4

The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza:

Unfortunately the site was hacked with a great damage on March and they haven't been back since then. Their IP address cannot be found, and their archives are unreadable. Reading or counting these results is impossible.

Total is quite even with Fingon having one vote more:

Fingon 6
Orodreth 5
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