ArPharazon
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 3:53 am |
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After receiving numerous helpful postings in response to my previous thread on the subjecty of Sauron as the Lord of Gifts, I promised to post my conclusions.
I have reached my working hypthesis below only as a result of the suggestions, ideas and helpfulness of others, which i acknowledge and for which I am most grateful.
In UT JRRT says that Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar (anticipating the Istari by millenia)told to remain in ME to give aid to the elves.
I conclude, therefore, that Sauron would have appeared fair, approachable (and , as he is said later to have hidden his anger at Galadriel's suspicions behind them) a patient and courteous being, so these must have been qualities he projected in his character - for which he may have taken the name Artano - High Smith, or Aulendil (meaing one devoted to the service of the Vala Aule). [NOTE: JRRT may later have decided to change Artano to Annatar, but I rather like the idea of knowing that Sauron had another personal name, and with no evidence to the contrary, and though others may disagree, I see no reason why Artano could not have been the first name of Annatar, Lord of Gifts.] Other characteristics suggested for Sauron at this time (by JRRT in a 1954 letter) include the fact that he could still appear beautiful to look at.
Entirely subjectively, I get a mental impression of Sauron at this time as "golden" in outward character and appearance - maybe golden haired, and almost shining - maybe too a younger projection that the later Istari took - clean shaven and long haired, youthful and bright eyed.
So faras the clean shaven bit is concerned, in 1972 JRRT said that elven descent in men would be indicated by a beardlessness, and as Sauron was in Eregion to do business with the elves, one might expect him to take an appearance like them.
It seems that Sauron had in any case not yet been recognised as the same individual who had been Morgoth's right hand (he took as et no single name and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit), although a mysterious power of hostility was being felt in ME at this time, but had no known centre. Sauron kept distinct his two sides as enemy and tempter (I am unsure what this means but maybe he was able to appear as Sauron the enemy projecting a presence as such in ME - maybe maintaining some sort of proto-Mordor in the east beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains - while keeping up the pretence of being Artano (the one who brings gifts ie a tempter).
Amazingly, as late as 1954, JRRT did not believe Sauron to have been wholly evil at this time.
As others of you have pointed out, Galadrel's suspicions seem to have rested on the fact that she did not recall Aulendil as having been a follower of Aule in Valinor - although indeed, Sauron has once been exactly that. [Interesting isn't it that as ever the best lie contains part of the truth!!]Whatever Galadriel's sspicions, however, they were not sufficiently strong to et him expelled from Eregion. Thus we can assume Sauron's disguise was efective.
Finally, since Sauron appears to have been keeping a finger in several pies over the years that he was Annatar, I conclude that he must have travelled with a probably small retinue, whom he could use as messengers, But if his powers of sorcery were strong enough he might have bee able to send messages with out human aid (employing animals instead?) He certainly did not have the nazgul to aid him at this stage. If there was a retinue, it would in my opinion not have been large, as I doubt that an emissary of the Valar would have wished to be too ostentatious.
I assume also that he travelled on horseback as after being defeated in a battle on the Gwathlo he fled with "no more than a bodyguard". Thus if as a warrior he rode (I can't see him fleeing on foot and the text does not suggest magic) why not as Annatar. Also if as a general he had a small guard in attendance, is it not reasonable to conclude that he might have had similar protection and assistance in his fair-seeming role?
That's it in a nut-shall. I recognise that this is no more than pulling together JRRT's scattered wrtings on the subject, my own deductions and interpretations and the thoughts of others expressed in this forum. It has assisted me in gaining a clearer focus on the events of these important years, and if it helps others in a similar way, the effort has been worth it.
I'd love to hear what you think folks. Please feel free to add, question, argue or disagree. It all helps get an even deeper understanding.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
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hamish_spence
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 6:26 am |
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Sauron in Numenor still had a fair form, but it was NOT his Annatar form. Tall appearing almost as one of the Valar, he combined intimidation with deceit to manipulate the Numenoreans. Thus, Sauron can definitely be said to have played many roles. It is likely that some of the Numenoreans, long before this, had become some of the Nine (at least 3)
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ArPharazon
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 8:14 am |
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Where did you get the info about his Numenor form precisely - that's interesting. I can't find it in Akallabeth.
So far as the 3 Nazgul you mention, again what is the reference?
("It is likely that some of the Numenoreans, long before this, had become some of the Nine (at least 3)")
By my reading of dates (Annex B ROTK) Th rings were forged after 1500 SA and probably before 1590. The One Ring (without which no Nazgul) c 1600. Numenoreans begin to settle in ME c 1800 (first Nazgul appearance c 2251 but unclear whether this is some or all). Sauron to Numenor 3262. Does JRRT actually state somewhere that 3 Numenoreans had been seduced by then or even that 3 of the RWs were Numenorean?? I'd be interested to know.
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Armenelos
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 9:16 am |
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where does it say that it was NOT his anatar form?
i don't think that people change their forms at the drop of a hat like that.
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Túor
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 9:54 am |
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Yeah, how do you know that he had different forms? Why should he anyway?
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ArPharazon
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 10:16 am |
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So far as changing his "form" (Tolkien uses the phrase 2wrought for himself a new shape)is concerned, Tolkien makes it clear that Sauron could change pretty much at will, if not totally so.
He talks about him "taking" the form of this or that - or no longer being able to do so in a "fair" form after Numenor was drowned and he was caught up in its fall.
All the Ainur - Valar and Maiar - were able to do this. Like Morgoth before him, S latterly appears to have got stuck in a more limited range of possibilities.
Other examples of Maiar taking a chosen form would be Olorin (as Gandalf) and Curumo (as Saruman) but the other wizards Istari did the same. UT has all the details.
Had you not come across this idea of Sauron taking various forms at various times before? In The Silmarillion he almost seems to have a "shapeshifting" quality.
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Armenelos
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 11:13 am |
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yeah but just because they could doesn't mean they did all the time. why would he need more than one fair form? did he have a reason to have more? it just doesn't make too much sense to me.
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Scatha
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:05 pm |
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It is my opinion that, after forging the One Ring and after the wise percieved who he was, he would not use the same form again.
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ArPharazon
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:35 pm |
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I was hoping for a slightly more INFORMED debate than this. After all we do have JRRT's works to draw on.
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Armenelos
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 8:41 pm |
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oh well.
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wilko185
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 10:04 pm |
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Ar-Pharazon, you seem to have summarised the available information very nicely, so we can only respond with speculations, I'm afraid.
Who do you think Annatar's "retinue" would consist of, if he had one? I really can't imagine any evil beings in his service would be capable of fooling the Noldor as to their true nature, so did he attract a real cult "following" (literally) among elves or men, to serve him in his fair form? What would become of them when Sauron's true nature was revealed?
As you, I picture Sauron's "fair" form as probably young, gifted and beautiful rather than old, dignified and wise. I somehow think it would be an offence to Sauron's pride to appear ancient and worn, no matter if it would be an equally effective disguise. I wonder what he made of the Istari, when they appeared? Presumably he knew their true nature, it must have been a puzzle to poor old Sauron why Maiar sent to oppose him would choose such limited forms.
Sauron's dual roles of "Enemy" and "Tempter" are interesting, as both are synonyms for the Devil. Portrayal of Satan "The Great Tempter" as a beautiful youth is something of a mythic archetype. According to the Encyclopedia of Unbelief:
Though he is often a repository of the cattle,
serpent, goat, and dragon deities of antiquity, with sexy Pans and
and satyrs added to the mixture, the Devil is, at times, portrayed
as a strikingly handsome and alluring young man.
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.. the very monsters and huge fishes of the sea, war not amongst themselves in their own kind: but believe me, man at man's hand receiveth most harm and mischief.
-- Pliny |
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ArPharazon
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 11:15 pm |
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Wilko - thanks for a thoughtful response.
So far as Annatar's "retinue" is concerned, I believe Sauron to have been "clever" enough to have done the unexpected. Whatever it was would have been aimd at throwing any possible resistance off track. I am equally sure he would have wanted to appear "sincere" and be seen to be supported by sincere people. As I see sauron at all stages of his existence as intensely charismatic, he might easily have seduced innocents to his service. I had not thought of your idea of him attracting a cult "following" of elves or men, but the idea that he might have gained support from others before arriving in Eregion is certainly a possibility. I think though he would have needed some trusted guards and aides and these might have be drawn from his usual "team" but passed off as "mercenaries"??
What happened to the innocents when the guise fell? Murdered probably along with Celebrimbor among the horror Sauron unleashed on Eregion when he was thwarted. Imagine their feelings when they saw how they had been used and duped. Sauron was indeed monstrous.
My picture of Sauron as young, gifted and beautiful rather than old, dignified and wise was in part predicated on the appearance of the istari when they finally arrived. Was their guise, I wondered, a reaction to something? Why appear as old wise men? Perhaps because Sauron - mimicking an emissary of the Valar had done the very opposite. I agree though with your statement that "it would be an offence to Sauron's pride to appear ancient and worn" and i do not see the two as inconsistent.
Sauron and the Istari? It may have taken them a while to attract his attention. I guess he did probably suss them out pretty quickly and thus recognise their true nature. But the probably, in his arrogance and pride, thought mawe was being weak and had muffed it again, as he seemed so often to have done with Morgoth. sauron probably had a good laugh, then proceeded successfully to seduce all but Radaghast and Gandalf from their missions.
I had never given much thought to the period of the making of the Rings until recently, but in fact JRRT gives us a lot of information and hints at more - and when you begin to speculate based on his writings - the whole thing opens up. The story, worked through, would be almost as good as LOTR itself, with the conclusion being the saving and hiding of the elven Rings.
Sauron's dual roles of "Enemy" and "Tempter" are interesting, as both are synonyms for the Devil.
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wilko185
by stok other ston
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2002 12:54 am |
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[You want quotes from the text? You got em.]
The story of Sauron in his Annatar period seems to have strong parallels with Morgoth's initial dealings with the Eldar. Some light may be cast on Sauron's behaviour as Annatar from his master's similar role after his release in Valinor. As mentioned in another thread, there is a similarity in the story of the three rings of Celebrimbor, ("who desired in his heart to rival the skill and fame of Feanor" - UT) and the "rape of the silmarils."
fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they sought it...
Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-Mirdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft.
...the Noldor took delight in the hidden knowledge that he could reveal to them; and some hearkened to words that it would have been better for them never to have heard. Melkor indeed declared afterwards that Fëanor had learned much art from him in secret, and had been instructed by him in the greatest of all his works; but he lied in his lust and his envy...
the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone
When he saw that many leaned towards him, Melkor would often walk among them, and amid his fair words others were woven, so subtly that many who heard them believed in recollection that they arose from their own thought. Visions he would conjure in their hearts of the mighty realms that they could have ruled at their own will...
So great became his hold on the Mirdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion
There is even a similar denouement, with Celebrimbor and Finwe both vainly defending the door of the treasury when the Dark Lord comes to take the rings/jewels. (The difference being, Morgoth got the Silmarils while Sauron didn't get the Three, though he obtained the Nine and, after torturing Celebrimbor, the Seven).
__________________
....in after years [Sauron] rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
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.. the very monsters and huge fishes of the sea, war not amongst themselves in their own kind: but believe me, man at man's hand receiveth most harm and mischief.
-- Pliny |
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wilko185
by stok other ston
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2002 12:59 am |
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There was a question earlier about three of the Nazgul being Numenoreans. A passage in Akallabeth describes how after the days of Tar-Minastir, Sauron's hatred of Numenor grew.
But for a long time he did not dare to challenge the Lords of the Sea, and he withdrew from the coasts.
Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Numenorean race. And when the Ulairi arose that were the Ring-wraiths, his servants, and the strength of his terror and mastery over Men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Numenoreans upon the shores of the sea.
In those days the Shadow grew deeper upon Numenor.... and then Ar-Pharazon's namesake steps up.
I take this to mean the Nine were "ensnared" in ME before Sauron's trip to Numenor. Many Numenoreans were resident on the coasts of ME at the time.
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.. the very monsters and huge fishes of the sea, war not amongst themselves in their own kind: but believe me, man at man's hand receiveth most harm and mischief.
-- Pliny |
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ArPharazon
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:25 am |
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Wilko - the parallels between Morgoth/Silmarills and Sauron/Rings are very powerful and compelling. I have never seen this set out like that before. If it is your own insight, i think it exceptional.
I wonder whether JRRT was conscious of them, or whether this is just one of those amazing (coincidences as we say) that occur in his books?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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DarthFëanor
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:59 am |
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Very interesting thread! Keep up the good work, I would join but I have but a small knowledge of the Second Age. 
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wilko185
by stok other ston
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:58 am |
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There are obvious general parallels between the roles of the Silmarils in the First Age, and the Rings of power in the later ages. However, it was only when thinking about this thread, and one posted by Istariquendi about possible similarities between the Three Rings and the silmarils, and also reading the stuff in UT on Celebrimbor, that it really struck me how closely the actual details of the narratives follow each other. I'm sure I'm not the first to notice this however. (Perhaps I subconsciously picked up on something Chris Tolkien said about this? I haven't read Morgoth's Ring, btw, perhaps that book sheds some more light on this subject).
[The stuff from UT is in the Celeborn and Galadriel chapter, btw. I haven't looked at this chapter much in the past, but there's a lot of interesting stuff tucked away in there].
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.. the very monsters and huge fishes of the sea, war not amongst themselves in their own kind: but believe me, man at man's hand receiveth most harm and mischief.
-- Pliny |
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Endordil
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2002 12:07 pm |
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As far as the discussion on the three Numenoreans is concerned I do remember reading somewhere (can't remember exactly, maybe in Unfinished Tales) that three of the Nazgul were originally powerful BLACKNumenoreans. These were, of course, lording it over the people of Umbar and probably other coastal areas further south AFTER the Downfall. There is no reason to suppose they were seduced IN Numenor.
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ArPharazon
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2002 2:48 pm |
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Darth Feanor - I hadn't dipped into the 2nd Age myself until I began to get interested in the creation of the Rings. Doing the research was fun, and I got masses of help from loads of people on here, for while i am more grateful than I can say.
Like you Wilko, Celeborn and Galadriel was a chapter I'd skipped a bit, until (I think you) got me delving deeper. As you say, lots of useful info tucked away there.
So far as Morgoth's Ring is concerned, C Tolkien says in his intro that his father: "contrasted the nature of Sauron's power, concentrated in the One Ring, with that of Morgoth, enormously greater, but dispersed or disemminated into the very matter of Arda: the whole of ME was Morgoth's Ring."
Don't know whether this helps.
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wilko185
by stok other ston
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:07 pm |
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the parallels between Morgoth/Silmarills and Sauron/Rings are very powerful and compelling.....I wonder whether JRRT was conscious of them, or whether this is just one of those amazing (coincidences as we say) that occur in his books? -ArPharazon
I tend to think Tolkien was consciously echoing the earlier story to make the point that evil (or more specifically here, temptation), is always with us. The Noldor learned their lesson from the initial treachery of Morgoth.... for the most part: Galadriel, Gil-galad and Elrond were not deceived.
But Celebrimbor was less wary and laid himself open to evil (as so many of Tolkien's "creative" characters do: Feanor, Saruman, Morgoth himself). He and his fellow smiths let their thirst for the knowledge and power to create/preserve beauty (not in itself a bad thing) get the better of them. And so they fell into the same trap as the Noldor did in Aman.
There's something of a moral lesson here, I think.
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.. the very monsters and huge fishes of the sea, war not amongst themselves in their own kind: but believe me, man at man's hand receiveth most harm and mischief.
-- Pliny |
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ArPharazon
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:21 pm |
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Wilko - I don't question your interpretation for a moment, indeed, I consider it one of the most important contributions to our understanding of TS and LOTR that i have read in these forums.
However, I have not come across anything in JRRT's writings where he discusses this issue. As you know he was a man who almost thought through writing, and committed his ideas to paper.
Not that that renders your idea invalid in any way. Just that I think it may have been more unconscious than conscious working out in the great man's mind.
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wilko185
by stok other ston
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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 12:12 am |
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Firstly, thank you for the compliment ArPharazon (though it's hardly merited, I think).
Secondly, I should of course have put "IMHO"s all over my previous post. It was pure speculation on my part, and don't worry about offending me by pointing out my occasional flights of fancy. I have not read all of HoME (missing the last 3 volumes) so I'm aware I'm sticking my neck out sometimes, in my interpretations. And of course I will often be "wrong" even when the it can't be proved by reference to Tolkien.
Looking at the stories of the Rings and Silmarils side by side, it initially seemed likely to me their author was making a deliberate point. But of course, Tolkien is not your average author. For one thing I have no idea how far apart in time he wrote the two texts, it may have been decades. Also, I get the impression Tolkien very rarely decided to make a (moral) point, then write a story (or stories) to get the point across. Rather he let the story "flow through him", and whatever messages are to be found in the tales of the Silmarillion arose subconsciously from Tolkien (to put the simplest interpretation on this mysterious process).
Or perhaps we could say Tolkien's basic view of the nature of evil was probably consistent while writing both tales, so of course a similar outcome would arise in each, where a "personification" of evil is in a similar conflict?
(I don't know, speculating again... )
Anway, on reflection, I agree I was probably wrong to ascribe that slightly heavy-handed moralism to Tolkien's writing, as a primary intention on JRR's part, at least.
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.. the very monsters and huge fishes of the sea, war not amongst themselves in their own kind: but believe me, man at man's hand receiveth most harm and mischief.
-- Pliny |
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ArPharazon
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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 4:41 am |
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I dunno, Wilko - as an intelligent person you may well be more accurate than you modestly claim.
I think our minds must work along very similar lines. Certainly, I think JRRT would have approved of your thoughtful approach to his work.
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Armenelos
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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:44 pm |
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second age is awesome.
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Nerdanel
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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 4:12 pm |
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I think Sauron probably used the same fair guise with the Elves and the Númenoreans. The Númenoreans knew his identity even if they didn't know of the Ring, and there would have been no point in pretending otherwise. Instead I think he wanted to impress them by his majesty and beauty and apparent wisdom, not to mention his immortality.
Also, I think Sauron probably had only two shapes at that point. We know his ability to shapeshift lessened as he got more tied to the material plane, and it would make strongly sense if the loss of shapeshifting was gradual. In the First Age Sauron could become for example a wolf, a snake, or a vampire, and I think his shapes were lost to him one by one when they got damaged too badly or possibly when they hadn't been used in a while. Sauron couldn't repair the lost finger, which he surely would have done if he could. Even on the first age I think Sauron's shapeshifting was very possibly limited to a set of previously formed shapes, or at least making new shapes was very difficult for him.
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Armenelos
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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 4:17 pm |
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i agree with you.
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ArPharazon
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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 11:19 pm |
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Nerdanel
You write "I think Sauron probably had only two shapes at that point... and I think his shapes were lost to him one by one when they got damaged too badly or possibly when they hadn't been used in a while. Sauron couldn't repair the lost finger, which he surely would have done if he could. Even on the first age I think Sauron's shapeshifting was very possibly limited to a set of previously formed shapes, or at least making new shapes was very difficult for him. "
Do you have evidence based on JRRT's writings for this, or is this just your ideas. Nothing wrong with the latter at all, but usually it is best to base deductions on reference in Tolkien. One can fil in gaps logically or imaginatively but there is a difference - that is if you want to be taken seriously.
In point of fact, I disagree quite strongly with most of what you said in the para I quoted above. All I have ever seen we are told in JRRT is that after Numenor, Sauron could not again take a "fair form". So far as Annatar is concerned, the writings seem to point directly to the fact that this was a specific facade which he took up and later dropped when Celebrimbor finally sussed him. Neither am I aware of any limitation imposed on or recognised by Sauron in the 1st Age. However, I am always prepared to learn or be proved wrong that is how we progress.
So if you have any basis for what you say, I would be very interested to hear what it is. In the meantime, thanks for responding.
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Nerdanel
Ranger of the North
Alliance: House of Feanor
Last Visited: 06 Dec 2005
Joined: 20 Mar 2000
Posts: 4031
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Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2002 5:17 am |
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Just my ideas for the most part, although I think they are well based in logic and common knowledge.
When Sauron's fair form was destroyed resulting in him being constrained to his Dark Lord form, I think that's pretty strong indication that Sauron only had two forms at this point. In The Silmarillion he had more, but because it is exceedingly unlikely that the process of becoming tied to matter would go straight to n forms to 2 forms without anything in between, I think Sauron was already affected to some degree by his long evil-doing. Imagination comes in on the question of that degree, though. At least he was unable to become a bodiless spirit anymore without "dying" and weakening himself considerably. If he could have done that, Huan would have had no hold on him.
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ArPharazon
Mariner
Alliance: House of Beren
Last Visited: 29 Jan 2005
Joined: 13 Dec 2001
Posts: 6360
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Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2002 6:52 am |
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I'm afraid I'm still not convinced. The fact that he could no longer take a fair form does not logically lead to the conclusion he had only two forms. He may have had several. Indeed, we know he could project himself after Numenor, both as the lidless eye and by implication in a physical form.
I do not believe that he had only ONE fair form beforehand either.
To quote my original posting on this thread once more:
"It seems that Sauron had in any case not yet been recognised as the same individual who had been Morgoth's right hand (he took as yet no single name and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit), although a mysterious power of hostility was being felt in ME at this time, but had no known centre." NOW this was at a time when we know sauron could take any form he liked, yet he was not recognised.
"Sauron kept distinct his two sides as enemy and tempter". I remain as i said earlier unsure of exactly what this means but again it suggests he had a number of options open on the "evil" side too.
As far as Numenor is concerned, i have always assumed he went there as himself (in that he made no attepmt to conceal his identity) and that his appearance was the one he usually used. I would assume this would be of a majestic humanoid type, maybe larger than human size (JRRT says something about this in LETTERS but I do not have a copy). It is Annatar which I believe was the "disguise" as no one recognised him.
Incidentally, he may have taken yet other guises in the south and east where he was worshipped as King and God. Ones appropriate i would guess to the area he was in.
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Gwaith-i-Mirdain
Shield Bearer
Alliance: house of feanor
Last Visited: 12 Sep 2003
Joined: 10 Jul 2001
Posts: 232
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Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2002 7:49 am |
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At least with regard to Sauron in Numenor I don't think he tried to conceal his identity. Rather, when the Numenorean ships arrived he feigned submissiveness and awe at them ( I believe Sauron was indeed impressed with the might they projected though) with his aim being to stroke or stoke the egos of the Kings and precipitate their downfall. He became a respected councellor of the king and held the king's ear.
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