Xhen
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:11 am |
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Roman Polanski arrested
Surprised there hasn't been a thread about this yet. I'm sure you can all guess where I come down on this but I'm curious how many people here agree with the Hollywood and European glitterati's defense of a child rapist.
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Cerin
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:32 am |
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I just learned on another messageboard a bunch of stuff that hadn't been presented in the few mentions of this that I'd seen.
Apparently, Polanski was already convicted of this crime. He pled guilty and accepted a plea deal. He fled because the DA renegged on the plea deal they'd offered him. Now, I think there can be discussion of the pros and cons of making deals with child rapists, but once a deal is made, I think it should be honored. So I think those responsible should be prosecuted for misconduct, and the original plea deal restored.
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MerriadocBrandybuck
Ranger of the North
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Cerin
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:01 am |
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Thanks for clarifying, MB.
I think the questions lurking beneath the surface are, does his art diminish his crime, does his crime diminish his art.
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Xhen
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:05 am |
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The judge wasn't going to sentence Polanski to a long prison term. Polanski had served 42 days of a 90 day "diagnostic" in prison and the judge was considering having him serve the remaining 48 days. That's it. For raping a 13-year old girl. It was a slap on the wrist.
Since Polanski fled the country, whatever plea terms were originally negotiated are null and void.
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Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ideas are weapons
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Maria Maria
She reminds me of a west side story
Growing up in Spanish Harlem
She's living the life just like a movie star
Maria Maria
She fell in love in East L.A.
To the sounds of the guitar
Played by Carlos Santana
Stop the looting, stop the shooting
Pick pocking on the corner
See as the rich is getting richer
The poorer is getting poorer
See mi y Maria on the corner
Thinking of ways to make it better
In my mailbox there's an eviction letter
Somebody just said see you later
-Santana "Maria Maria" |
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RoseMorninStar
Humble gardener of the Shire
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Cerin
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Xhen
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:20 am |
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The sex was not consensual. The girl testified under oath that she had repeatedly told Polanski no, but he continued to force himself on her and sodomized her after drugging her. Polanski also testified under oath as part of the plea agreement that he knew that she was thirteen. In fact, he'd had to get the consent of her parents first to photograph her.
This was a rape by any reasonable definition of the word. The charge was reduced to statutory rape as part of the plea agreement.
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Gandalf'sMother
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:18 pm |
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Quote:
I'm curious how many people here agree with the Hollywood and European glitterati's defense of a child rapist.
You can see the assumptions dripping from Xhen's initial post. Insulting to many on this messageboard, of course. It seems he equates Manwe's liberals with "European glitterati" and "Hollywood" - assuming that we are all vapid, image-conscious selfish uber-relativist elites who hate victims and love criminals. That says more about his prejudices, misconceptions, ideological blinders, and outright hostility to anything to the left of Attila the Hun, than anything else.
This was rape, plain and simple. No man, regardless of social standing, should get away with rape.
I'm curious, Xhen. Does this mean you're not going to start a public tab on how many Manwe liberals defend Roman Polanksi for raping minors?
-GM
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Cerin
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:47 pm |
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Yes, GM, it was a very cleverly constructed dig at liberals. First Xhen implied that it was obvious how a conservative like himself stands on the question of child rape, which in turn implies that liberals would probably take the opposing view, thus lumping us with the disdained glitterati defending the rapist and thereby besmirching all of our characters without actually violating the TOS. Masterful! My only question is, given that the tactic is so transparent and predictable, why do you rise to the bait?
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SeverusSnape
Moderator of the Dark Arts
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:58 pm |
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The question is academic.
Either stay on topic, or this thread will be locked.
Emails forthcoming.
Severus Snape
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"The Dark Arts are many, varied, ever-changing and eternal. Fighting them is like fighting a many-headed monster, which, each time a neck is severed, sprouts a head even fiercer and cleverer than before. You are fighting that which is unfixed, mutating, indestructible."
Severus Snape
severussnape@theonering.com |
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Gandalf'sMother
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jadeval
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:18 pm |
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I love rape. I'm a liberal. Let him off the hook.
Issue discussed. What do we talk about now?
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RoseMorninStar
Humble gardener of the Shire
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:42 pm |
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I read an article today that certainly was NOT in support Polanski, but it raised the question (in comparison) of people who supported (for example) Catholic priests after they had been exposed as child molesters. It is not always Hollywood Gliterati that support such deviants.
The whole subject is repugnant to me.
IMHO the original question in the thread was worded as a taunt.. *shrugs* One can view it as a fisherman trying to reel us in with bait or we can eat the bait, ignore the hook, and be on our way.
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Fir-Bolg
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Q. How's the slaughter going?
A. Very well, thank you.
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RoseMorninStar
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Fir-Bolg
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:30 pm |
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RoseMorninStar said:
Fir-Bolg said:
Roman Polonski did a wrong thing. Was it the 'wrongest 'thing to go unpunished? No. It wasn't anywhere near Teddy Kennedy's culpable homicide at Chappaquiddick that was never pursued. This arrest smacks of irrelevancy.
I am puzzled that you would compare these two cases as if one justifies the other F-B. MaryJo's death was not an intentional crime. Ted Kennedy did not report it when he should have, it is highly unlikely that MaryJo was still alive by the time help would have arrived even if someone would have called when he was able to make it to a phone. He also claims (and no, we have nothing but his word) that he did try to dive to the car to get her out once he realized she also did not escape the car. He quite possibly was drunk, but there was no proof of this. I don't know what the common sentence was in similar cases of the time, but he was convicted of was leaving the scene of an
accident.
What Roman Polanski did was an intentional and calculated crime against a 13 year old child. Something that he did admit committing. Rape is a horrendous
intentional
crime that damages person irreparably. I don't see how, in any way, you can consider it irrelevant. And I don't see what the outcome of one case so dissimilar has to do with the justice in another case .
I understand what you're saying, Rose. Maybe the comparison is a poor one. Through Ted Kennedy's actions, a young woman lost her life. He became a venerable, and venerated, Senator.
Through Roman Polonski's actions, a young girl had sexual congress with a famous movie director. She survived it, and from what I can ascertain, she is not unduly scarred by the experience.
That is not intended to trivialize the event, although it
has
to be conceded, surely, that her experience is nothing compared to MaryJo's.
I do not subscribe to the idea that youth is universally innocent, and is inherently corruptible. When the Rolling Stones' Bill Wyman was sleeping with his bride to be, 13 year old Mandy Smith, it was scandalous. But to pretend she was a wide-eyed innocent is disingenuous.
As I said, Polonski was at fault, but his crime is not in the same league as a Kissinger. It is the salacious nature of the crime, and the moral self-righteousness that is the engine for the media buzz. And in reality, I find it slightly confected, especially when scandals such as Boystown are routinely hushed up.
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Q. How's the slaughter going?
A. Very well, thank you.
The Sandinistas are no match for our Contras... |
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RoseMorninStar
Humble gardener of the Shire
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:11 pm |
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NOTHING warrants a 44 year old man having sex with a 13 year old child. I don't care how wanton or lacking in innocence
someone else
thinks that child is. The 44 year old KNOWS that it is a crime. There is NOTHING accidental about this crime any more than it is when any pedophile preys on children. People who insist that the responsibility for the sexual act is the fault of child protects and defends such criminal behavior.
In this thread, not being about Kissinger, I will not address his crimes. I am not well versed in specific political crimes (of which there are many.)
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Nadreck_of_Palain7
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:23 pm |
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The most interesting thing about this topic is not the case itself, but the fact that Polanski has so many defenders (though I expect very few, if any, here in Manwe). I think that most people convicted of such a crime would be sentenced to prison. The thing that bothers me is that some people think that because they they are important they can escape the consequences of their actions.
There is another example of excusing wrongdoing in this country. I think you can make a pretty good case that some people, starting with Dick Cheney, think they can get away with introducing torture as official US government policy, despite many laws and ratified treaties that say torture is illegal. There are plenty of people that think they should not be held accountable for that.
Having inconsistent moral standards is the rule, not the exception. Most people have different standards for their family, their friends, their tribe, than they do for outsiders.
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ILvEowyn
Ringbearer
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:04 pm |
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Quote:
how many people here agree with the Hollywood and European glitterati's defense of a child rapist
Well, the
victim
, for one.
Quote:
Geimer, who lives in Hawaii with her husband and three children, will not be commenting until Polanski's legal situation in Switzerland is clarified, her lawyer told CNN. But in past interviews she made it clear that a plea bargain intended to spare her pain as a teenager continues to cause her grief as an adult.
Once an aspiring actress, Geimer has said she long ago got over what Polanski did to her. She sued him, and a settlement was reached out of court. But the media, prosecutors and the courts in Los Angeles, California, continue to torment her, she has said.
Every time the case resurfaces her wounds reopen
Maybe 'defend' isn't the right term for this, but I tend to agree with her that this arrest can't do much good now.
Quote:
I understand what you're saying, Rose. Maybe the comparison is a poor one. Through Ted Kennedy's actions, a young woman lost her life. He became a venerable, and venerated, Senator.
Through Roman Polonski's actions, a young girl had sexual congress with a famous movie director. She survived it, and from what I can ascertain, she is not unduly scarred by the experience.
You're right, it is a poor comparison, because there was never any proof that Kennedy did anything other than leave the scene of an accident, which he plead guilty to.
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Last edited by ILvEowyn on Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ideas are weapons
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Last Visited: 19 Nov 2009
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Posts: 1691
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:10 pm |
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I'm not sure how, but I blame Obama!
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Maria Maria
She reminds me of a west side story
Growing up in Spanish Harlem
She's living the life just like a movie star
Maria Maria
She fell in love in East L.A.
To the sounds of the guitar
Played by Carlos Santana
Stop the looting, stop the shooting
Pick pocking on the corner
See as the rich is getting richer
The poorer is getting poorer
See mi y Maria on the corner
Thinking of ways to make it better
In my mailbox there's an eviction letter
Somebody just said see you later
-Santana "Maria Maria" |
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SilverScribe
Scribe, Wanderer, Warrior ... Bard of Rhudaur
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Posts: 21762
Location: In the wild . . .
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:54 pm |
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The rape of a 13 year old girl is
not
"sexual congress", as if this was a 'dinner and a movie, your place or mine' type of date between consenting and equally knowlegable adults, or two people planning a family.
No matter how anyone wants to colour this, the plain fact remains. Polanski was old enough to be aware of the law, and smart enough to know he was committing a crime in every sense of the word. And no amount of vapid bleating about Polanski's "artistic talent" will whitewash this type of selfish and irresponsible behaviour into the world of the acceptable.
He did the crime and should have served the time. You can bet if he'd been Mr. Joe Nobody, he'd already have done so, and the victim would have been able to truly put it behind her and not have to deal with it over and over every time the media decided to trot out a 'famous' case.
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Scribe, Student, Istari understudy, Bookworm, Lore Seeker, Warrior, Wanderer, Poet, Storyteller and General Nuisance.
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RoseMorninStar
Humble gardener of the Shire
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:12 pm |
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I will agree with ILvEowyn that all of the media attention makes this crime that much more tragic. I certainly can understand someone just wanting to put the whole ordeal behind them and move on.
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Gandalf'sMother
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:24 pm |
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Congratulations to FB. Just when I thought his nonsense was reserved for the arena of high politics, he comes along and asserts that a 44 year old man having sex with a 13 year old girl, after having given her drugs, can be just fine under certain circumstances, and that 13 year olds who have sex with 44 year old men can be culpable because of their general lack of innocence. Especially if the old person doing the cavorting with the minor is famous, of course.
And this coming from an alleged class warrior.
Does FB's chauvinism know no bounds?
-GM
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Gandalf'sMother
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Fir-Bolg
funambulist
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:49 am |
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Gandalf'sMother said:
Congratulations to FB. Just when I thought his nonsense was reserved for the arena of high politics, he comes along and asserts that a 44 year old man having sex with a 13 year old girl, after having given her drugs, can be just fine under certain circumstances, and that 13 year olds who have sex with 44 year old men can be culpable because of their general lack of innocence. Especially if the old person doing the cavorting with the minor is famous, of course.
And this coming from an alleged class warrior.
Does FB's chauvinism know no bounds?
-GM
Come on, GM, climb down from the pulpit. You're sounding like Jimmy Swaggart.
At what point did I say that it was
just fine
for Polonski, or any 44 year old man, to have sex with a 13 year old?
Nowhere. It is your invention.
And nowhere did I say 13 year olds would be culpable due to a lack of innocence. All I did imply is that some 13 year olds are not that innocent, and Mandy Smith was the example I gave.
I raised the example of Teddy Kennedy because he died recently, and the fulsome praise he received from some quarters could be viewed as rather obscene considering he caused the death of a young woman. Rape is a terrible ordeal, but it is
not
death.
This is becoming a bit of a habit with you, GM, setting up straw men to knock down and so try and occupy the high ground. I would hope you were better than that.
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Q. How's the slaughter going?
A. Very well, thank you.
The Sandinistas are no match for our Contras... |
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Gandalf'sMother
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Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ideas are weapons
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Last Visited: 19 Nov 2009
Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 1691
Location: Massachusetts
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:29 am |
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This topic is rather uncomfortable for me, and hits a little to close to home for me to talk much about (a few people here know why). And I'll just say
In no way, in no situation, is a THIRTEEN year old of either gender in ANYWAY responsible when a forty+ year old man engages them sexually, none.
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Maria Maria
She reminds me of a west side story
Growing up in Spanish Harlem
She's living the life just like a movie star
Maria Maria
She fell in love in East L.A.
To the sounds of the guitar
Played by Carlos Santana
Stop the looting, stop the shooting
Pick pocking on the corner
See as the rich is getting richer
The poorer is getting poorer
See mi y Maria on the corner
Thinking of ways to make it better
In my mailbox there's an eviction letter
Somebody just said see you later
-Santana "Maria Maria" |
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noela
Shield Bearer
Alliance: -None - Female-
Last Visited: 25 Oct 2009
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 356
Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:58 am |
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It has been a long time coming for him. If he had been a man and did the time, he would be out and about by now. He is a coward as well as a child rapist, Pedophile we call em here.
I feel so sorry for the child, now woman, every time his name is mentioned in the news media, it must be hell for her. She states, that she just wants it to all go away. Pity he didn't.
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