Dave_LF
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:04 am |
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FWIW:
-Rapist, yes. Pedophile, no. A pedophile is someone who is attracted to prepubescent children, and there's no evidence for that in this case.
-It's no excuse for continuing after she said "no", but the girl's own mother told Polanski she was older in the hopes that he would sleep with her.
-Celebrity gossip has got to be about the lowest form of communication there is after talk radio. I feel dirty now.
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Storyteller
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:19 am |
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Why exactly should Polansky's crime be viewed in the context of Ted Kennedy's? Does one miscarriage of justice somehow legitimize another?
Hypocricy, real or perceived, is of little interest in and of itself. It is only when it's indicative of a greater moral failing that it warrants discussion.
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SilverScribe
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:34 am |
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Dave_LF said:
-It's no excuse for continuing after she said "no", but the girl's own mother told Polanski she was older in the hopes that he would sleep with her.
I agree, it's no excuse.
If a child's mother told their teacher it was okay to discipline their child by beating them to within an inch of their life, does that make it excusable for the teacher to do so? "Oh, well, her mother told me I could." 
Each one of us gets to decide to act rightly, or wrongly. In this case, Polanski was DEAD WRONG, no matter who told him what. He knew the girl was underage, and even
had
she been legal at the time, she said NO
several times.
He should have been jailed for rape, minor or no minor, period. But instead he chose the coward's way and fled the country.
Explainable, maybe. Excuseable? Never.
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Scribe, Student, Istari understudy, Bookworm, Lore Seeker, Warrior, Wanderer, Poet, Storyteller and General Nuisance.
~Bard of Renown(with Title), Bards Guild | Second Mate, Mariners Guild | Bunch 'o White Council Awards 2002-2006; An embarrassment of riches . . . ~
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"When you carry a broadsword, you never have the same problem twice."
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Nár
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:46 am |
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Quote:
I think the questions lurking beneath the surface are, does his art diminish his crime, does his crime diminish his art.
Swordsman_Of_The_Tower said:
I think they have nothing to do with each other.
Quote:
I think they must have something to do with each other, since they proceed from the same soul, or mind, if you will. I'm not sure how to feel about the art of someone who has done such a thing. It's a very strong ambivalence for me.
Or put another way, do I feel differently about Polanski than I would feel about an unknown person described in a news story as doing the same thing, and if so, why. Is there some redeeming power in art that has so many people pleading Polanski's case?
Sadly, it's not the first time that a great artist has done really reprehensible things (the first name that springs to my mind is Benvenuto Cellini). Roman Polanski is both a great director and a terrible human being. This may make me as a viewer uncomfortable as I watch a brilliant movie like, say, The Pianist, but I guess we have to live with it.
And his art has no redeeming power in the sense of a "get out of jail free" card. It just shows that even a person who did something awful can create great art.
Which is, admittedly, rather disquieting.
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Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ideas are weapons
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:21 am |
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The usual cadre of suspects is supporting him, Woody Allen, Scorcese, Harvey Weinstein (Watch out directors/actors out there, don't say anything bad about this or you'll be blackballed by the kings of LA, the Weinsteins )
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Maria Maria
She reminds me of a west side story
Growing up in Spanish Harlem
She's living the life just like a movie star
Maria Maria
She fell in love in East L.A.
To the sounds of the guitar
Played by Carlos Santana
Stop the looting, stop the shooting
Pick pocking on the corner
See as the rich is getting richer
The poorer is getting poorer
See mi y Maria on the corner
Thinking of ways to make it better
In my mailbox there's an eviction letter
Somebody just said see you later
-Santana "Maria Maria" |
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Nár
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:41 am |
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The fact that Woody Allen supports him isn't that surprising, really. 
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portia
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Posted: Fri Oct 2, 2009 5:14 pm |
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I have heard different things about what the issue with the plea deal was. The Judge --Lawrence Rittenband-- was social friends with my in laws. He was a very hard nosed judge and it would not surprise me if he was intending to ignore the plea deal in some way--as he is, indeed, allowed to do.
Neverthless, it was stupid and guaranteed to rile the DA and the Superior Court judges to run. Neither can afford to have anyone thumb his nose at them get away with it. It will get more publicity if a famous person does it, so it needs a very public response.
The person he raped is now a grown woman and would like the matter to go away. I can't blame her, but there is more involved, here.
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Xhen
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Posted: Fri Oct 2, 2009 9:39 pm |
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I've read the transcript of the girl's grand jury testimony and it's pretty disgusting. The girl was given champagne and a quaalude to make her more pliable but repeatedly said no and asked to be taken home as Polanski forced himself on her. There was nothing consensual about it and it would've been rape if the girl had been thirty.
And this definitely wasn't an isolated instance for Polanski with young girls. He later had an affair with Natassja Kinski when she was only 15 and there are more and more photos and quotes being dug up that suggest he was a serial offender who had a fetish for young girls.
Polanski should do some hard time.
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Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ideas are weapons
Alliance: Rohan
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Maria Maria
She reminds me of a west side story
Growing up in Spanish Harlem
She's living the life just like a movie star
Maria Maria
She fell in love in East L.A.
To the sounds of the guitar
Played by Carlos Santana
Stop the looting, stop the shooting
Pick pocking on the corner
See as the rich is getting richer
The poorer is getting poorer
See mi y Maria on the corner
Thinking of ways to make it better
In my mailbox there's an eviction letter
Somebody just said see you later
-Santana "Maria Maria" |
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portia
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Posted: Sat Oct 3, 2009 2:11 pm |
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If he is actually extradited and comes back for sentencing, I hope he will get at least a year of actual jail time. But it is possible that some other result will take place possibly a settlement, or something, will prevent him from coming back here.
There is a report that there was a civil settlment with the victim, involving several hundred thousand dollars, and there was a some doubt that it had been paid.
I do not care one way or another about his films. But he is a rapist and it is a bad idea to just give him a free pass.
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portia
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Posted: Tue Oct 6, 2009 8:12 am |
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The Swiss court denied his petition to be released on bail while the extradition hearing proceeds.
I SHOULD HOPE SO! How much less than one hour do you think it would take for him to get out of the country?
(Private plane or helicopter, no passport issues, small country to leave.)
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Democritus
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Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:47 pm |
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I've always been mystified by the excuses made for Polanski around this case, usually by people who love either his work or feel sympathetic to the fact that Polanski had lost the woman he loved in the way that he did (murdered by the Manson gang). Whatever the circumstances were around Polanki's life at the time he committed rape it doesn't excuse him or justify the type of celebrity 'justice' that he was in danger of getting away with.
The extent of the special pleading around Polanski's case reminds me of some of the tortuous logic I have heard employed by some Catholics over defending paedophile priests or some Israelis over the confiscation and resettling of Palestian land. It seems with human nature that while there are a wide array of moral questions that most people subscribe to most of the time (rape is wrong, confiscation and occupancy of private land by force is wrong etc), there are all sorts of self-justifying excuses made when morality inconveniently intersects with personal desires, loyalties, and ambitions. Then a great many of us become good at proving just how plient our moral values really are.
It also shows how valuable a concept "double think" is.
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Last edited by Democritus on Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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vison
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Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:01 pm |
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I'm not a big movie fan. Maybe Polanski's movies are great, I wouldn't know. Great artists - if we want to call him a great artist - are not necessarily good people. Some are pretty loathesome, like Tolstoy.
He should have to face the music, just like any criminal. His age, his sad past, his artistic accomplishments have nothing to do with this.
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portia
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Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2009 8:49 am |
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His attorneys are making another bail suggestion.
Putting myself in Polanski's place, I would be willing to put up just about anything, any amount of money and property, to get out of jail. I would then exit the country and feel my freedom was worth it. There is a lot of world, outside of Switzerland and the USA.
If the Swiss go along with this attempt, it will seem like bribery to me. I wonder if it would encourage other countries who have extradition treaties with the US, to arrest him if he visits and then let him have bail in return for a large amount of money?
An I being cynical, as usual?
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Nár
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Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2009 9:32 am |
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vison, I seem to recall we have been through this before, but still... 
Quote:
Great artists - if we want to call him a great artist - are not necessarily good people. Some are pretty loathesome, like Tolstoy.
While of course anyone is free to dislike Tolstoy's works (I personally think he was one of the greatest writers of history), his philosophy (I suppose a lot of people today will disagree with his ascetism, his views on sex, his pacifism, etc.) or his personality (which I realize some people might regard, for example, as over-the top and holier-than-thou in his zealousness), calling him "LOATHSOME" (even considering any flaw and occasional mistakes and hypocrisies he might have committed, like any man does - and which have to be seen in the context of the society he lived in, of course) and even mentioning him in an implicit comparison with a
paedophile rapist
like Polanski seems utterly absurd to me.
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vison
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Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:11 am |
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Nár said:
vison, I seem to recall we have been through this before, but still...
Quote:
Great artists - if we want to call him a great artist - are not necessarily good people. Some are pretty loathesome, like Tolstoy.
While of course anyone is free to dislike Tolstoy's works (I personally think he was one of the greatest writers of history), his philosophy (I suppose a lot of people today will disagree with his ascetism, his views on sex, his pacifism, etc.) or his personality (which I realize some people might regard, for example, as over-the top and holier-than-thou in his zealousness), calling him "LOATHSOME" (even considering any flaw and occasional mistakes and hypocrisies he might have committed, like any man does - and which have to be seen in the context of the society he lived in, of course) and even mentioning him in an implicit comparison with a
paedophile rapist
like Polanski seems utterly absurd to me.
Tolstoy may not have been a pedophile rapist, very true. But how are we to measure loathsomeness? In the number of victims? The amount of pain caused?
Roman Polanski, in comparison to Tolstoy, is at once of lesser importance as a historical figure and as a man of influence in his own time. 100 years from now he will most likely be completely forgotten. At this time, only people like Barbara Amiel are sticking up for him. (Man, that made MY head go wugga-wugga, I can tell you. Must be because his Lordship is in durance vile, and she feels sorry for anyone facing the prospect of having to cohabit with, you know, icky real criminals from the lower classes.)
Tolstoy will still be idolized 100 years from now by the sort of people who idolize men like Tolstoy.
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Nár
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Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:22 am |
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Please list the long list of crimes and iniquities committed by Tolstoy, because I might have missed some.
Or are we still talking about the surly, mysognistic attitude of a 19th century Russian nobleman towards his wife? Because I seem to recall that was your main objection towards him (if that wasn't you but some other TORCer, apologies - that was at least a couple of years ago). I'll grant that would be an unpleasant character trait, but hardly enough to regard him as "loathsome". Especially if we consider, as I said, the context and the society of that time. Hell, pretty much 99% of all the men who lived before the last generations could probably be considered mysoginists by today's standards. And, granting you that there isn't an easy meter of "evilness", mentioning Tolstoy in relation to Roman Polanski... well, as someone said, it's not the same ballpark, and it's not even the same
sport
.
Oh, and to clarify (misunderstandings are easy on forums) I am not some kind of angry, easily offended Tolstoy fanboy - I am genuinely curious (if a bit puzzled )
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vison
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Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:34 am |
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Nár said:
Please list the long list of crimes and iniquities committed by Tolstoy, because I might have missed some.
Or are we still talking about the surly, mysognistic attitude of a 19th century Russian nobleman towards his wife? Because I seem to recall that was your main objection towards him (if that wasn't you but some other TORCer, apologies - that was at least a couple of years ago). I'll grant that would be an unpleasant character trait, but hardly enough to regard him as "loathsome". Especially if we consider, as I said, the context and the society of that time. Hell, pretty much 99% of all the men who lived before the last generations could probably be considered mysoginists by today's standards.
Oh, and to clarify (misunderstandings are easy on forums) I am not some kind of angry, easily offended Tolstoy fanboy - I am genuinely curious (if a bit puzzled )
Well, yes, it was at least partly Tolstoy's treatment of his poor wife that makes me not admire him. But that's not the most important reason, by any means.
I dislike, with a passionate intensity, the kind of Christianity Tolstoy espoused. I think he was one of the most hypocritical men who ever lived, who couldn't even live decently with his own wife but was very good at telling everyone else how to live. That would be fine, if no one paid attention. But they did.
He also had serfs, of course. One wonders if his frenzied sexual remorse had its roots in his youthful exercise of feudal "rights"?
I don't know. I loathe the guy. Does that make him "loathsome"?
I don't "loathe" Roman Polansi, since about all I know about him is that he committed a "loathsome" crime. I don't think I've ever seen a movie of his. Maybe. I saw bits of Chinatown. It had Jack Nicholson in it? Ick. See? I'm out of the loop here.
I don't think Polanski deserves any special consideration. But he's small potatoes, in the Universal scheme of things.
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Nár
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Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:47 am |
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Quote:
I dislike, with a passionate intensity, the kind of Christianity Tolstoy espoused
.
Fair enough.
Quote:
I think he was one of the most hypocritical men who ever lived, who couldn't even live decently with his own wife but was very good at telling everyone else how to live.
The wife thing again... frankly, even if that was true (I've read almost everything he wrote and some of what has been written about him, and I never stumbled into this, so I have to thank you for informing me about this unpleasant trait of his personality ), it would be an act of hypocrisy. Is that enough to condemn a man? Is a man with the generous ambition to change the word for the better and ready to sacrifice a lot for this "loathsome"because of some small hypocrisies?
For you, obviously, he is. In which case, you could probably list as loathsome pretty much everyone who ever lived, with the possible exception of Jesus, Buddha and maybe some other enlightened few.
Quote:
That would be fine, if no one paid attention. But they did
Maybe they were happy to, because they knew him much better than you and I do?
Quote:
He also had serfs, of course. One wonders if his frenzied sexual remorse had its roots in his youthful exercise of feudal "rights"?
Seriously, if we are going to use today's standards to judge people of other centuries, hell would be quite overpopulated. I personally think it's absurd to say "Boo, that 12th century priest was a monster, he thought people of other religions were evil!". What we can do is recognizing the greatness of people who were able to
overcome
the narrow, racist or classist thoughts of their age (like a 12th century priest who understood people of other religions could be good - or a 19th century nobleman who eventually started to regard his servants as the morally healthy part of society and to live and work among them ).
Quote:
I don't know. I loathe the guy. Does that make him "loathsome"?
In short, no.
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Last edited by Nár on Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vison
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Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:54 am |
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I see we are doomed to disagree. Which is fine, after all. I don't want to post in an echo chamber.
The thing is, though, I don't admire Jesus or Buddha, either. So there you are.
I am not really judging Tolstoy by today's standards, or rather, I'm not condemning him by today's standards. I condemn, or maybe merely dislike, those who admire his ideas NOW and think they are swell ideas and ought to be put into practice.
If I admired his writing it might be different. I don't admire his writing. I find it boring and tedious and very turgid, rather like The Silmarillion. I don't admire The Silmarillion, and here is further heresy on a Tolkien-related site: I don't admire everything about JRRT, either. I think he was a product of his time, like Tolstoy was a product of his time. I am not comparing the two men in any other way, mind you. Tolkien was a pretty nice man, by all accounts. But he was still quite naturally stuffed with a lot of Edwardian and Catholic notions that creep me out.
I can overlook all that for LOTR.
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RoseMorninStar
Humble gardener of the Shire
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Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:57 am |
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Polanski will be remembered for his crime, but also Rosemary's baby, Chinatown and The Pianist (among others). I DO NOT think in any way that his 'artistry' or history excuse his crime. As for long term influence and rememberance (and remembered for what) I guess only time will tell.
I don't know much about Tolstoy.. yes, Tolkien was a 'stuffed shirt' & product of his own time, but we are viewing that through our own lens, as those who come after us will view us through another lens.
As for the Silmarillion, it was published in unfinished form. I doubt that it is the story as Tolkien would have liked to see it published... and so a little bit of forgiveness is due for the way it was written/published.
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Nár
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Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2009 11:04 am |
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Quote:
I see we are doomed to disagree. Which is fine, after all.
True
Quote:
The thing is, though, I don't admire Jesus or Buddha, either. So there you are.
Er... I see. Is there anyone you actually admire? 
Quote:
I am not really judging Tolstoy by today's standards, or rather, I'm not condemning him by today's standards. I condemn, or maybe merely dislike, those who admire his ideas NOW and think they are swell ideas and ought to be put into practice.
It is true that
some
of his ideas are quite extreme (I am thinking, for example, of the views about sex and marriage exposed in the Kreutzer Sonata and in his comments about the novel).
Anyway, just as an example,
Gandhi
was one of the people who were heavily inspired by Tolstoy. But I assume you don't like him either...
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JewelSong
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Storyteller
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Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2009 11:29 am |
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By the standards of his time and society, Tolstoy was a remarkably good man (unlike, say, Dostoyevsky, who chose to ally himself with some of the worst racists and reactionaries of the Russian empire). He did a fair bit of bad stuff in his younger years- including executing people at war and killing fellow officers in duels- and he admitted as much in his writings, but his deeds were par for the course for a 19th century Russian nobleman, and he did come to re-evaluate and regret them. He was insensitive and inconsiderate to his family, and certainly unreasonable in many of his views, but he can hardly be called loathsome.
P.S. I remember reading that Tolstoy did father a child with one of his female serfs, so vison may be on to something regarding the "exercise of feudal rights".
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vison
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Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2009 3:36 pm |
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Nar: Because I admit I don't admire Jesus or Buddha you wonder if I admire anyone? Why? Does it seem likely to you that because I don't admire Jesus or Buddha I am lacking an Admire gland or something?
I am not a Christian. Not because I am "fed up" with what passes for Christianity in so many instances, but because I disagree profoundly with the basic tenets of Christianity and, indeed, of every religion I know of. If a person named Jesus really said what Jesus is supposed to have said and taught, then I don't admire him. I don't think it's human failure to follow what Jesus taught, but the failure of the teaching. Likewise, with Buddha, etc.
Yes, there are men and women I admire. A long list. But the founders of religions are not on my list.
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jadeval
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Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2009 7:07 pm |
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Dostoevsky was magnitudes more prescient than Tolstoy when it came to the human psyche. He was also more original and direct in his writing and less tied to convention. And his personal philosophy relied on his psychological observances rather than on metaphysical or idealistic principles, making him more sophisticated and interesting (and relevant) imo.
I also agree with vison that Jesus and Buddha are not necessarily admirable figures. Both of them are actually quite extreme examples of a certain type (or types depending on how different you consider them) of idealist.
Socrates was more admirable than either of them because he pursued problems through reason and did not resort to the etremes of human psychology in order to convince people. Almost all the main concepts descending from Jesus and Buddha are exaggerations and literalized hyperbole. The concepts of heaven, hell, nirvana, enlightenment, arhat, son of man, blessedness... all of these are metaphors which if taken seriously amount to exaggerations of very finite, practical realities (these concepts
were
taken seriously, and were meant to be taken that way since that attracted people in numbers). They are thus not even good metaphors because they amount
merely
to exaggerations. Along these lines, Confucius was also a more admirable figure, imo.
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Minardil
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Posted: Wed Nov 4, 2009 6:52 am |
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vison said:
Nar: Because I admit I don't admire Jesus or Buddha you wonder if I admire anyone? Why? Does it seem likely to you that because I don't admire Jesus or Buddha I am lacking an Admire gland or something?
I am not a Christian. Not because I am "fed up" with what passes for Christianity in so many instances, but because I disagree profoundly with the basic tenets of Christianity and, indeed, of every religion I know of. If a person named Jesus really said what Jesus is supposed to have said and taught, then I don't admire him. I don't think it's human failure to follow what Jesus taught, but the failure of the teaching. Likewise, with Buddha, etc.
Yes, there are men and women I admire. A long list. But the founders of religions are not on my list.
Now this is a very interesting departure from what most people say. The typical critique of religion usually runs along the lines of approval of the basic tenets and ideals, but strong disapproval of the way those values get twisted and misapplied. For example, most non-religious folks would say they admire the teachings of Jesus - Love your fellow man, do good works, care for the poor, sick, hungry, etc - but hate the way these words are corrupted to give us things like the Spanish Inquisition.
Just curious, which central beliefs of Christianity and Buddhaism do you disagree with? Not talking about the dogma and ceremony that has grown up since (at least with Christians), but the teachings of the founders themselves.
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vison
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Alliance: House of Elrond
Last Visited: 20 Nov 2009
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Posted: Wed Nov 4, 2009 7:55 am |
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Minardil said:
vison said:
Nar: Because I admit I don't admire Jesus or Buddha you wonder if I admire anyone? Why? Does it seem likely to you that because I don't admire Jesus or Buddha I am lacking an Admire gland or something?
I am not a Christian. Not because I am "fed up" with what passes for Christianity in so many instances, but because I disagree profoundly with the basic tenets of Christianity and, indeed, of every religion I know of. If a person named Jesus really said what Jesus is supposed to have said and taught, then I don't admire him. I don't think it's human failure to follow what Jesus taught, but the failure of the teaching. Likewise, with Buddha, etc.
Yes, there are men and women I admire. A long list. But the founders of religions are not on my list.
Now this is a very interesting departure from what most people say. The typical critique of religion usually runs along the lines of approval of the basic tenets and ideals, but strong disapproval of the way those values get twisted and misapplied. For example, most non-religious folks would say they admire the teachings of Jesus - Love your fellow man, do good works, care for the poor, sick, hungry, etc - but hate the way these words are corrupted to give us things like the Spanish Inquisition.
Just curious, which central beliefs of Christianity and Buddhaism do you disagree with? Not talking about the dogma and ceremony that has grown up since (at least with Christians), but the teachings of the founders themselves.
Simply put: the "ideals" are impossible for humans to achieve. Built in failure, leads to guilt. Once you're guilty, they've got you.
No time for more right now.
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Minardil
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vison
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Last Visited: 20 Nov 2009
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Posted: Wed Nov 4, 2009 10:33 am |
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Minardil said:
Quote:
Simply put: the "ideals" are impossible for humans to achieve.
Okay, but that's saying something different than that you disapprove of the ideals themselves, which is what you seemed to be saying before. Wouldn't that apply to all philosophies, btw, even those of people you say you do admire?
I do disapprove of the ideals themselves. Why? Because they are inhuman and inhumane.
And, no, it doesn't apply to all philosophies. Particularly my own.
Of all the lines of poetry that I hate, I hate this one the most: ". . . . Man's reach must exceed his grasp, else what's a Heaven for?" Pooh on you, R. Browning. (I may not have quoted that perfectly.)
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