Jersey on PJ's LotR: Vital, beautiful and sad

What do you think of Tolkien on the silver screen...? Whether Bakshi, Jackson, Amazon, BBC radio play, or whoever else, come on in and discuss your reflections, opinions, and memories...

Postby finarfin » Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:49 pm

<i>"PJ is at least seeming to satisfy my desire for the films, which is for them to be vital, beautiful and sad."</i><BR><BR><BR><BR>Jersey said this. His comment after reading the current scripts. I just thought it deserved it's own thread.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Optomistic meter has just registered overload at the moment.
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Postby Whistler » Fri Apr 13, 2001 7:17 am

...as opposed to vacuous, boring and stupid, which is what anybody who goes to movies would have reasonably expected.<BR><BR>The TONE of the films will remain with people long after they've forgotten who was where, saying or doing what. Or what color his hair was.<BR><BR>I agree, very encouraging.<BR>
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Postby Mithfânion » Fri Apr 13, 2001 7:38 am

May I inform who Jersey is?
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Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Apr 13, 2001 7:45 am

Jersey is a new poster who, by his account, has been associated with the production and has read all three scripts in detail. He is highly optimistic but can't answer specific script questions becasue he has signed the non-disclosure agreements. I think most of his posts are in the thread called "What do you think of the movies."
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Postby Semprini » Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:25 am

No, Jersey's very eloquent and heartening posts are in the 'Audition Scripts: a Controversy' thread. As I believe that no dramatization of a book has ever been absolutely faithful to the original material (which is confirmed in respect of LOTR alas by what we already know and will probably be further confirmed by the movie itself), I find a solace in Jersey's belief that the changes to the book buttress the main themes of LOTR rather than detract from them.
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Postby Mjolnir » Fri Apr 13, 2001 9:00 am

Wonder if PJ and/or New Line would consider sending some spin-doctors to the mb:s on the Internet? Even if the people on the mb:s are just a small portion of the people who have to go to see the movies to get PJ and New Line the megabucks I imagine New Line would think they could profit from getting a positive buzz on the web a la Blair Witch.<BR><BR>Jersey? Are you a spin-doctor on New Lines pay-roll? <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Cheers<BR><BR>Mjolnir
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Postby Jersey » Fri Apr 13, 2001 10:20 am

No. I posted a reply to a few queries that were raise on the "Audition Controversy" thread, but they didn't "take." This is a test to see whether I can still successfuly post into another thread.
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Postby finarfin » Fri Apr 13, 2001 10:51 am

Jersey,<BR><BR>I don't think you are a spin doctor, spy or any other form of marketing sent by NLC or anyone else for that matter. Call it intuition or gut feel, but I found your posts to be one of a reasoned, well meaning fan of both film & LOTR. Welcome to this very spirited board of film & LOTR fans. I hope you continue to be involved and shed light where you may. Damn NDA’s!<BR><BR>Btw, I hope I didn't offend you by arbitrarily posting a piece of your overall post.<BR><BR>Welcome and well met.<BR>
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Postby The Watcher » Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:12 am

Welcome, Jersey <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I envy you if you have indeed been able to read the scripts for the films, and am heartened that you believe that they will convey the beauty and sorrow to be found in ME.<BR><BR>One question for you if you feel you can answer this without violating your NDS -<BR><BR>In your opinion, do the scripts successfully convey the <b>feel</b> of ME? I hope these films are ultimately thought of more as grand epics, as opposed to fleshed out fantasy action films. When I see these films, I want my soul to be moved, I want to feel anguish, loss, elation, hope, resignation and triumph as the characters experience them. I really would rather see quality dialog and acting along with with screenplays that successfully capture the *essence* of Tolkien, or in response to your other posts, the *DNA* of the parent, as opposed to a film that comes away feeling like "Gladiator" or "Braveheart", or even "Star Wars" (all of which I enjoyed as great entertainment, but there was no emotional connection.) I want to interact with the films on a personal level rather than on a visual level. I know that the sets and scenery, costumes and weapons will be fantastic. But these by themselves cannot constitute great filmmaking. So, what is your feel? <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> <BR><BR>
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Postby Jersey » Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:19 am

The following was originally intended as a response on the "audition script controversy," but the thread doesn't seem to accept any new posts:<BR><BR>I spent some time this morning trying to answer some of Leonides' queries as far as I could and also in responding to Saranthir's last post, but somehow my post didn't "take" and I'm not really up to rewriting it again.<BR><BR>Saranthir, I loved your reference to the buildings in Ephesus. A library and a brothel... both places of "deep learning." Let's hope that this does not prove to be a good analogy for the way in which Jackson's film is distinguished from the books.<BR><BR>Ah, what the heck, Leonides. I'll try and make it short. Keep in mind that the scripts remain fluid until the last take on a given scene has been shot. Now the films are in their second incarnation, editing structures and refines the storytelling in ways that can radically differ from the script.<BR><BR>"1. If you've read the audition scripts, do you find the writing in the actual scripts to be superior?"<BR><BR>Yes, the scripts were a great read. None of the portions that appear in the audition scenes are represented verbatim in the scripts. The stuff that people were particularly unhappy about doesn't appear. Gimli doesn't have "that" line. <BR><BR>"2. How much of Tolkien's dialog is used? Jackson has said it's a huge amount -- is that true?"<BR><BR>Lots. Some of it has been made a bit more conversational, but a great deal of it will depend on the skill of the actors (and here's where the likes of McKellen should shine) to make Tolkien's "high" language sound like natural speech, the way well performed Shakespeare can be.<BR><BR>"3. Arwen... c'mon... give us something."<BR><BR>The snippet in the trailer is not a flash forward to the end of the tale of A & A.<BR><BR>"4. Are the characters in place? By this I mean all the characters well realized?"<BR><BR>It's all very solid. I found that Aragorn, Boromir and Faramir particularly endeared themselves to me. Gollum/Smeagol gave me goosebumps. Of course the more formidable characters like Gandalf, Treebeard and Theoden appeal to me in particular as well. There's enough there for the actors to use their skills to make them live on the screen. I really liked Lurtz, who demonstrates the subtle way in which cinema can sharpen the drama by simply providing a recongnizeable face (nobodynever actually referred to him by name and he could just as well have been called Orc #3.) I liked the way Sauron is handled. Surprisingly little Arwen in the films, considering all the hullaballoo.<BR><BR>"5. Which film had the largest departures?"<BR><BR>All three had a fairly comparable amount of deletions, restructuring and bridging material, but I think it'll be in the eye of the individual viewer which of these seems the most significant. To my mind, some of the more obvious alterations do help underline key themes from the book, as Jackson sees them. Film three astonished me in how much stuff was kept that I would have expected to lose right off the bat. I think Jackson is as bold in retaining difficult to convey stuff in the film, as he may seem to be with the material he's being "flexible" about.<BR><BR>"6. What scene seemed like it would work the best in the film? The one that you read and got chills?"<BR><BR>Just a random smattering: Bilbo's birthday and fireworks. Moria. Aragorn at Edoras. Aragorn and Boromir's first meeting. Frodo at the Cracks of Doom. Boromir's final stand and his death/redemption in Aragorn's arms. Eowyn riding with Merry and slaying the Witch King. Gandalf's escape from Isengard. Faramir's encounter with Frodo and Sam. Pippin's realization that Frodo and Sam are alive. The riders of Rohan arriving at the Pellennor and Theoden's death. The intimacy of small exchanges between Aragorn and Eowyn, Gandalf and the Hobbits. For a sheer sense of the epic, most of film three. The forging of Anduril. Sam saying, "Well, I'm back." <BR><BR>"7. Is a narrator used? Reports I've gotten indicate that Frodo will act as a sort of narrator... true? 8. Is my sig in the beginning of the movie? I looooove it!"<BR><BR>There wasn't any narration as such in the body of the films, though Frodo still speaks at the introduction and conclusion. <BR><BR>Saranthir, you said, "These things are not a result of transmutation,<BR>but of invention - and I challenge anyone to prove that they are necessary to achieve a successful film, or that a great film could not have been fashioned without them."<BR><BR>Yes, I'm sure someone could make a successful film without any of these particular changes, but Jackson can't. Any director will have a somewhat different approach. This is his and someone else who might leave these elements undisturbed might tamper with something different but equally upsetting. Have you considered though that it might just be possible that as good as a film version that keeps the elements that concern you intact might be, a film WITH these alterations could be even better? Lack of strict adherance to the text per se hasn't proven to be fatal to some of the good book adaptations out there. Conjuring "feel" that is evocative of the original supercedes other considerations to me. Many of the "changes" are intended to make us "care" more about the characters and therefore heighten our emotional investment in the success of their "quest." I cared significantly more about the script's Aragorn than the book's. Perhaps the Hobbit-centric presentation of the text makes him something of an aloof character whose triumphs have a tinge of inevitability about them, without any of the doubts and fears and perceived limitations that Tolkien shares about Frodo. We're allowed to see more of Aragorn, which makes him more real. <BR><BR>The Elves, by the way, do not magically levitate the company into the trees of Lorien, they physically drag them up into the trees. That report seems to have bee the result of a garbled presentation of a poor choice of words.<BR><BR>To sum up, I'm just as taken aback by the stuff that is being kept in (over an over again I thought to myself, "Wow, I can't believe that didn't get cut. They're actually going to show this part?") as I was by the alterations. Brace yourself, it's going to be a turbulent ride, watching the films. <BR>
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Postby Jersey » Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:28 am

Thanks Finarfin and well met yourself!<BR><BR>Watcher, let me just mention that I found myself quite moved by "Braveheart" in a Hollywood star paegeant kind of way. That film, with it's French princess romancing, 40-year-old actor with hair extensions playing an 18-year-old, still evoked the sense of self sacrifice, hope, friendship, redemption from betrayal etc. I believe that LOTR will be quite a different animal, because ther are far fewer concessions to contemporary "blockbuster" conventions. <BR><BR>I used to always lament that Alan Lee's illustrations were almost too melancholy for LOTR. But now that's why I like them. There's a reason that the films will look like living Alan Lee paintings. I think the sense of loss and sadness that is a strong undercurrent in the books has got a good chance of being represnted in the films.<BR><BR>Will we feel like we've really been to Middle-earth? In the words of Morgan Freeman's charcter in "Shawshank Redemption"... I hope.
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Postby Whistler » Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:29 am

Sam says, "Well, I'm back!"<BR><BR>That does it for me, folks. All is well! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR>
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Postby Leonides* » Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:37 am

Ladies and gents, Jersey is a freakin' God. Thanks for answering my questions, chief! Stick around!
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Postby Khajran » Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:46 am

Thank you *very* much, Jersey. I'd ask some questions myself, but I'm too busy grinning from ear to ear. Anyone who has slipped into pessimism, I defy you to read this post and not spend some time doing the same. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby Glothiniel » Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:48 am

Jersey... I'm quivering... Gimli doesn't have "that" line... Arwen's not in it all that much (as I suspected)... there's no silly levatation... Sam say's "I'm back"... Sam says "I'm back"... SAM SAYS "I'M BACK!" <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I am at a loss for words. The optimism matter has shattered its roof and optimism is spewing out all over the carpet (which is going to be a pain-- optimism is one heck of a stain to remove). Nothing anyone can say will make me think these movies will be poor until I see them (unless its verifiably proved to me that Jersey is a big liar who is putting us on, of course, but I don't think that's going to happen). Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to read your post several times, go back to quivering and collapse into a puddle of ultra-geeky excitement.<BR><BR>Glothiniel
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Postby The Watcher » Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:55 am

Jersey -<BR><BR>Thanks for the optimistic reports! I must say that I am feeling much better than I was earlier. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Gloth -<BR><BR>You sound like a jello mold that has been left in the hot water too long! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> I hope nobody slips in your puddle! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Glothiniel » Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:59 am

*gurgle gurgle*<BR><BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby finarfin » Fri Apr 13, 2001 12:37 pm

I'm tasting GRAPPA!!!!<BR><BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>All this good info today!<BR><BR>Jersey script review, the AICN Fox special report, the McKellen E-post. Where are the Purists to put us back in a conservative mood. My expectations are riding like a rocket right now. Help! I need to be brought back down to earth!<BR><BR><BR>Yes Glo, my head is spining and I have to wipe tears away every few minutes. Too much for one day.<BR><BR>Who says Friday the 13th is bad!
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Postby Semprini » Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:04 pm

Thanks a lot Jersey! That was a heartening and very informative read!<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby MattG » Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:06 pm

Jersey, thank you for that post. It is the most well reasoned explanation of how the movie can differ from the book and still be considered a good and faithful adaption that I have read on these message boards. I have, long ago, resigned myself to the fact that I will probably be disappointed by certain parts of these films as they veer away from from the books. However, if they do indeed still capture the feel of the books, I am sure those moments will be few and brief. Again, thank you for this shot of optimism.
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Fri Apr 13, 2001 2:07 pm

To answer finarfin, here's a purist. And all I have to say is:<BR><BR>Sam says I'm back. <i>Sam says I'm Back</i>. <b>SAM SAYS I'M BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b> And Gimli doesn't gabble about stuffed albatrosses -- I mean buzzards. <i>And</i> Arwen doesn't have as much screen time as we keep thinking she does. But she's still at the Ford, isn't she? Then certain unnamable people still need to go burn all copies of the film of that scene.<BR><BR>Grrr. Any departers at all are still unacceptable. But we all know my feelings on that subject, so... Congratulations, my optimism is now hovering around the feet of the Endless Stair. If you try hard enough, you might be able to get it to ground level before I read something else which plunges it back down to Gollum's ex-home. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I'm going to go have some of Wildwood's chocolate now. Cheers! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> (You know, if I didn't have Trig to go do, I'm sure I could find a lot more negative things to say. But I do and besides, I'm enjoying my optimism being up a couple flights of stairs from where it is normally!)<BR><BR>--Nienna<BR><BR>PS Gloth, go jump in a very cold pool. That should freeze you up pretty quick. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Glothiniel » Fri Apr 13, 2001 2:12 pm

Nienna: Why do I get the feeling that you meant that more as a response to my comments in the Gender Confusion thread than those here? <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>But right now, I'm enjoying my state of liquid optimism, though it does make it difficult to type-- and you thought Dennis the slug had it bad!<BR><BR>Glothiniel
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Postby AncalagonTheBlack » Fri Apr 13, 2001 2:13 pm

You the man, Jersey!<BR><BR>(You're also the man, Leonides!)<BR><BR>I feel another update to The List coming soon!
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Postby AncalagonTheBlack » Fri Apr 13, 2001 2:30 pm

Jersey,<BR><BR>What can you tell us about the meeting between Aragorn and Boromir? Do they meet before the Council of Elrond? Is Boromir's dream about seeking the sword that was broken included in the movie? Doe Boromir ride a horse into Rivendell (we've heard that Sean Bean had to take horse-riding lessons for the film)? When does Boromir pick up the Ring by its chain?<BR><BR>Inquiring minds want to know!
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Postby davidm » Fri Apr 13, 2001 2:54 pm

Ancalagon,<BR><BR>Sorry to throw a wet towel on your quest to update your list with information about the films, but I believe that Jersey is bound by a non-disclosure agreement that prevents him from giving any details.
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Postby Leonides* » Fri Apr 13, 2001 3:01 pm

I think he's right, Ancalgon. The best we can do is wait for Jersey to drop us some vague hints about the scripts. I now what I've heard from my buddy on the insides -- but his view is limited to mostly FotR stuff and some small snipits of TT.<BR><BR>Jersey has access to the whole darn thing!<BR><BR>The one thing I'd like to know from Jersey is maybe some vague comments about Saruman... his death.
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Postby Saranthir » Fri Apr 13, 2001 3:30 pm

Jersey - glad you liked that bit, amused me when I was there. They also stuffed the head of a giant statue of Hadrian down a cistern - funny lot.<BR><BR>Again I find myself almost certain of your honesty - thanks for that.<BR><BR>I also accept that these films will not be as I would wish them to be, but as I have said before, if they maintain a good degree of accuracy I will be somewhat placated.<BR><BR>Arwen not appearing as much as we feared is still no real comfort. At the Ford, At Helm's Deep - they will be two relatively short appearances, but enough to annoy the heck out of me. And also, as Roaccarcsson has said on another thread, if the dynamic between Sam and Frodo is changed as it has been suggested, then that too will rankle like grit beneath my eyelids.<BR><BR>The last line of your post again worries me. From what you have implied there are going to be some big changes - changes we have most likely heard nothing of.<BR><BR>Anyway, I hope you stick around and maintain your balance. Just one question though - why here, on this board?
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Postby Whistler » Fri Apr 13, 2001 3:39 pm

We must all make an attempt to refrain from asking questions that Jersey can't answer. The last thing we want is to pester him so that he leaves us.<BR><BR>Still, if all 5,000 of us pitched in $100 apiece for unlimited disclosure, it MIGHT be enough to cover most of the damages from a lawsuit by New Line against our benevolent insider. I'm good for it, if the other 4,999 of you agree!<BR><BR>Sorry, momentary lapse of judgement there.<BR>
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Postby finarfin » Fri Apr 13, 2001 4:33 pm

Count me in, Whistler!<BR><BR>Btw, where is Dennis the Slug? I am very interested to hear his reaction about the loss of his favorite line from the audition scripts! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><BR><BR>And NiennaSarrowing, thank you for throwing a little cold water on this incendiary day of optimistic news. I think both Glo & I were about to melt. Yes there is still much to be worried about. I want my expectation level to be cautious.<BR><BR><BR>Now, where is the guy who has actually seen the first cut. Mmmmmmmmmmmm<BR>
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Postby Xhen » Fri Apr 13, 2001 4:41 pm

Hey, I guess I forgot to mention that I've also read all three scripts. I'll sell my knowledge for the low, low price of only $75 each. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> Offer void where prohibited.
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