Are Frodo and Sam Gay?

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Postby iamahobbit » Wed Aug 23, 2000 6:03 pm

i dont know but there are some scenes in the books, especially at the end of the Two Towers and in the Return of the King, that Sam seems to really be on to Frodo. he seemed kind of gay. i know he got married and stuff at the end, but what's up with kissing and caressing Frodo's hand??? what do u think?
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Postby Celegorm » Wed Aug 23, 2000 10:12 pm

I know what you're talking about. My brother brought up the same thing. He obviously isn't because he does end up having a kid. He just acts that way towards Frodo out of love of him, but not a homosexual type of love. He cares for Frodo and is pained when he is pained. He just seems to show his love more than most people to towards the same sex.
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Postby locksley » Wed Aug 23, 2000 10:36 pm

I think the deep friendship between Frodo and Sam is beautifully expressed, but it never crossed my mind as being homosexual. Sam is certainly very demonstrative about his feelings, his devotion, toward Frodo; but Sam is very open about most of his feelings in general.
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Postby !ISAIAH! » Wed Aug 23, 2000 11:05 pm

Answer to your guestion: NO!!<BR><BR>I understand it might seem like that but they are going through alot together that makes their relationship deeper!!!
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Postby Mablung » Thu Aug 24, 2000 12:41 am

Well, we don't really know, do we? But what is known is that he later had wife and kids. Not sure if that exludes anything, though.<BR><BR>We should also know this is rather irrelevant. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Wandering but not lost » Thu Aug 24, 2000 2:09 am

I have seen this thread or types of it many many times. I have reached the conclusion of no. First: yes he did get married and loved rose. 2:just because someone does something as kissing a hand doe snot mean they are necessarily gay esp. when in medieval ages it was a sign of respect and people would do that to kings all the time gay or striaght. three: I think perhaps the reason this comes up so much is his sort of happy go lucky attitude usually that is the thing peple bring up first "well he acts so" that means nothing. I have a girlfriend who I love dearly and I act sort of happy go lucky. four: as for revelance, yes I think it is revelant. If he was gay it could bring up another motife sort of like eponine in les miserables where she loves someone without the idea of it being returned.
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Postby Diamond of Long Cleeve » Thu Aug 24, 2000 4:02 am

I can quite understand why a lad would react to Sam and Frodo in this way. Even I, who love them both to bits, can find Sam's excessive attachment to Frodo's hand rather soppy! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> But really, they're two men in dire circumstances who form a deep bond, and that's cool. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> And in other cultures, men can walk along hand in hand without any sexual connotation whatsoever.<BR><BR>I have no doubt that Sam was a hetero hobbit who loved his master deeply. Good point about the medieval respect stuff, Wandering. <BR><BR>Personally I find Frodo's sexuality far more intriguing ... <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> ... all those years of celibacy at Bag End, hmmm ... poor guy deserved SOME fun, for heaven's sake! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby LadyofRohan » Thu Aug 24, 2000 11:48 am

In response to Frodo's celibacy: perhaps some mythical "distractions" lay in wait for him in the glory of the West . . .
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Postby Mablung » Thu Aug 24, 2000 12:23 pm

Imagine all those Elf widows...
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Postby Melawen » Thu Aug 24, 2000 12:24 pm

I think that the fact that we find Sam's caring for Frodo homosexual depends from our cultural vision of gestures between men.<BR>In my opinion Sam comes to be almost maternal towards Frodo, he feeds him, tends to him, comforts him, so the facts that he ends up exteriorizing this feeling of caring almost as a mother would does not bother me all that much (I think being maternal is is possible for men, yes, even for heterosexual men) but of course, this clashes with our vision of male friendship.
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Postby rabidcat1582 » Thu Aug 24, 2000 6:37 pm

NO SAM IS NOT GAY!! HAVE YOU EVER CONSDIERED HOW FRIENDS BACK THEN ESPICALLY IN ENGALND KISSING WAS A GREETING THEN AND IS NOW AMOUNG SOME PEOPLE, THE TWO OF THEM REALLY DID GO THROUGH ALOT TOGETHER AND IN SOME CASES FRIENDS DO TEND TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS A MUTUAL RESPECT AS MASTER AND SERVANT AND FRIEND
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Postby the mouth of sauron » Thu Aug 24, 2000 10:51 pm

it is very sad indeed that our culture has come to this, i have a few male friends that i love very much to the point that i would lay my life down for them yet i am in no way gay, and that is a nother thing the word gay once meant happy... now it to has been adjustted to suit this p.c world that we live in .... the accounts spoken of in the LOTR is one of the many fine no, great things about the book IMHO.
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Postby Kelannar » Fri Aug 25, 2000 12:39 am

Sam is NOT GAY. I hate this kind of idiotic question. Try thinking about the issue first, and you might start by examining how seeped you are in your politically correct thought processes. I have no sympathy for anyone who asks this question. In a word, it is certifiably stupid.<BR>
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Postby Diamond of Long Cleeve » Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

Kelannar - Somebody who is worried about 'Sam being gay' is hardly likely to be a PC thinker! If they were PC, they'd positively INSIST on Frodo and Sam being gay! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> And the apparent lack of sexuality in Tolkien's characters was noted by critics back in the 1950s - it's nothing new. <BR><BR>Mouth of Sauron and Rabidcat - Nice posts, but Rabidcat, you needn't shout. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Lady of Rohan - I like it ... <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Telperion » Fri Aug 25, 2000 3:18 am

You should take it how you want to take it. I can just as easily think that Sam is gay or straight or bi... depends on how you want to read the story and what you're looking for.<BR><BR>How about this... for those of you who think Sam is straight, read it again thinking that he's actually in love with Frodo. For those who think he's gay, read it again thinking that he is devoted to his friend.<BR><BR>Sam loves Frodo... that cannot be denied. The question is brotherly love or romantic love? Or could it even be both?<BR><BR>And I would argue that to ask the question "is Sam gay?" is not trying to be "politically correct" at all... considering the mainstream view is that Sam is straight and considering that being gay is still thought of as evil my a majority of the population. <BR><BR>If you were to ask me what I think about the question personally, I would say that it's not a far step to wonder if Sam loves Frodo in the Eros way. Almost worship... lay down your life for your mate... as is mentioned in the battled against Shelob.<BR><BR>Anyway... does it matter? Love is love no matter how you slice it... never hurtful or evil... no matter to whom it's directed nor how.
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Postby The_Grey_Pilgrim » Fri Aug 25, 2000 12:11 pm

Man Kel! Where is the respect and compassion? As far as I am concerned you owe IAMAHOBBIT a sincere apology for your thoughtless, rude, and hateful comments! <BR><BR>There goes the TORC Welcome Wagon hospitality!<BR><BR>Think before you speak!
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Postby Morgoth_Bauglir » Fri Aug 25, 2000 3:08 pm

To answer your question, no! Nothing in Sam's behavior shows him to be, unless you apply the traditions in modern countries to Middle-earth. And if even basic laws of physics don't apply to magic there; why should a custom or two carry over?
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Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Aug 25, 2000 3:16 pm

Not to pile on, but I agree 110\% with TGP. Kelannar, it is one thing for you to duke it out with Prankster or Dr. S., who have put on their mouthgards and headgear and climbed into the ring for that purpose. But when Mike Tyson starts punching people who are not looking for a fight, he becomes contemptible. It took a lot of courage for IAAH to raise that topic, and he (she) did so because he was troubled by the issue and wanted help in dealing with it. And what did he get? A sharp right to the jaw.<BR><BR>Apologize.
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Postby Dk_Strider » Fri Aug 25, 2000 4:09 pm

I Laughed when i saw this post... is sam gay? hehehehehe... NO, he is not... lol... hehe, no offense, but dont ask questions like that, number one, they DONT MATTER, and number two, lets not debate about being gay..........<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Strider
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Postby The_Grey_Pilgrim » Fri Aug 25, 2000 4:16 pm

DK,<BR><BR>I don't think that this was a debate on homosexuality, it was someone's question about certain behavior which is not commonplace in 20th century men.<BR><BR>I never found Sam's behavior with Frodo to make me think that he was gay, rather it expressed a deep loyalty and love for his master which a lot of people just cannot comprehend.<BR><BR>But just because you or I see it one way that does not mean that people should not ask questions if they have them. I mean afterall isn't this place devoted to discussions of all types?
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Postby Aldwyn » Fri Aug 25, 2000 5:48 pm

Kel has a lonnng history of saying anyone who disagrees with him is "Politically correct." If he says something you disagree with, he is being a "Good conservative." This is the logic of the far right.
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Postby The_Grey_Pilgrim » Fri Aug 25, 2000 7:30 pm

Well I consider myself a good conserative, but Kel went too far I must say.
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Postby Kelannar » Sat Aug 26, 2000 12:17 am

The question is stupid. I really think that to ask it brings the assumption that one has absolutely no context of the situation Tolkien was writing, or even the basic nature of Sam's character. I don't think that Iamahobbit is stupid though. I don't know anything about the guy. If he got that impression, then that's certainly not what I meant.<BR><BR>Was my post any more harsh than rabidcat1582's, who felt the need to post in all caps? Or was my question of his thought processes any different than mouth of sauron's complaint that "now it to has been adjustted to suit this p.c world that we live in," or Melawen's concern that it "depends from our cultural vision of gestures between men"? I don't think so. Diamond seemed to think as posts they were ok.<BR><BR>Aldwyn - it's nice to know you're chronicling my posts for your book on Logic. I'd like to read it eventually. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby The_Grey_Pilgrim » Sat Aug 26, 2000 6:48 am

Kel,<BR><BR>If that is how you truly felt fine. However, the right thing to still do would be to apologize to IAMAHOBBIT, which your last post does not do. True you did not call IAMAHOBBIT stupid, but you did cast quite a lot of unkind aspersions at him or her which were neither kind nor warranted.<BR><BR>Be a man and admit you went too far.<BR>Apologize, or keep quiet in the future!
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Postby iamahobbit » Sat Aug 26, 2000 7:50 am

i asked the question "is sam gay?", and thank you for the many answers i received. However after reading what Lady Rohan had to say i decided to question Frodo, for at least i know that sam got married. well, maybe frodo had some "distractions", as the Lady said, in Valinor. anyways, many of you were defending me against kel's insults, but dont worry (thanks though), for only a loser would get so agitated, to the point of saying i ask idiotic questions. "it is certifiably stupid", as kel said, to be so defensive about a FICTIONAL character living in a FICTIONAL world.<BR><BR><BR>PS: nobody please get me wrong, i love middle-earth too<BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Misty » Sat Aug 26, 2000 12:58 pm

I find this question sad testimony that our education system over the last 2 - 3 generations does not include more insight into other cultures where men to embrace and touch in gestures of friendship and "love" that does not have an erotic connnotation to it.<BR><BR>From a European prospective Sam's devotion to Frodo is not out of line, particularly since it is set in a time long past. The fact that he longs for Rosie (hinted at in the first book) and has a bizzillion children afterward is darn good testimony he is not "gay."<BR><BR>I don't blame people for not seeing this. Asking questions is the only way to learn anything new. I just wish in a global economy there was more understanding of different perceptions and customs.<BR><BR>Peace. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR>
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Postby galadrialoflorien » Sat Aug 26, 2000 6:22 pm

I thought about that the first time I read LotR, but I hadn't finnished it. On closer inspection you will find that Sam says that he left Rose behind before he could ask her hand. That is on page 1001. I also looked at the two of them on the Tower of Cirith Ungol (889)and drew a pic of it (Frodo had clothes on) Sam is just comforting him. They are like Pippin and Merry when he comes in from battle. Pippin holds his hands and lets Merry rest his head on his lap. Pippin is comforting Merry. Sam is doing the same thing, just on a deeper level.
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Postby Elmtree » Sat Aug 26, 2000 6:45 pm

This topic comes up frequently, and as others have said, I think it says more about our society than Sam.<BR><BR>It's possible, and healthy, even necessary, for people to have deeply intimate (though non sexual) attachments to friends. We seem to be missing that in our culture today.<BR><BR>Sam loved Frodo deeply, but there was nothing in the story that led me to believe it was a homosexual love. I can see why someone of modern western culture (particularly US culture) might think so, or at least wonder. But men in other cultures can embrace, and kiss non sexually, and no one thinks anything about them being sexually attracted.<BR><BR>It's a shame we've lost that sort of intimacy (men more than women).<BR><BR>I also think Tolkien's war experience affected his writing of Frodo and Sam. I think the bonds of friends in war (or other extreme suffering) are very very deep.
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Postby Melawen » Sun Aug 27, 2000 12:11 am

I agree with Misty and Elmtree.<BR>In Italy we have distinguished ladies who go shopping arm in arm: if they were doing this in USA they would be called at least "weird".<BR>Furthermore, to speak about other cultures altogether, russian men are known to kiss each other on the mouth in public without being gay (I don't think anybody ever said that about President Breznev), and so are Arabs (same goes for Yasser Arafat).
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Postby Telperion » Mon Aug 28, 2000 1:56 am

Everyone remember.. there are NEVER stupid questions...<BR><BR>And to ask questions is not a bad thing... and to think different thoughts is not a bad thing. <BR><BR>It's good to ponder and consider old ideas and new ones.. to compare old things with modern.<BR><BR>Just because someone asks if "Sam is gay" does not mean that Society is going down the drain...<BR><BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> As Mark-Edmond says, "keep thinking"...
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