The Casting Scripts

What do you think of Tolkien on the silver screen...? Whether Bakshi, Jackson, Amazon, BBC radio play, or whoever else, come on in and discuss your reflections, opinions, and memories...

Postby Markus » Wed Sep 13, 2000 8:47 pm

Oh my. I've just read it again and it still aches my brain. It is so incomprehensibley childish that I can't fathom how any sane person would write such a thing. Even if it is just a casting script.<BR><BR><BR><BR>-Markus manages to blurb out "exschuse meesh" before he covers his mouth on way to the john to again relieve his stomach of its contents-
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Postby Celebrim » Wed Sep 13, 2000 8:48 pm

There is not reason to suspect that this is real. Has Kamul is presented credientials? Has he presented copies of the originals for inspection to any fan site? <BR> <BR>This smells of a hoax.
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Postby greatsantini » Wed Sep 13, 2000 8:58 pm

xoanon supposedly can vouch for its authenticity, but i don't believe anything until the films are out. and let me say this as well: adapting a novel to film invariably involved some interpretation, but putting arwen in battle is NOT interpretation. noone could read the book and interpret her as having been there. and while some say that what works in a book doesn't always work on screen (which is only marginally true), A BATTLE WITHOUT ARWEN WILL WORK! SHE IS NOT THE CATALYST BY WHICH A BAD CINEMATIC BATTLE BECOMES A GOOD CINEMATIC BATTLE!!!!!
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Postby Celebrim » Wed Sep 13, 2000 8:58 pm

I take it back. Xoanon is confirming that these are real. <BR> <BR>That means the quality of the scripts (if this is any indication, which it must be assumed that this is a fair if inferior representation) is far worse than even I would have feared. <BR> <BR>This is the worst news yet.
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Postby Cerin » Wed Sep 13, 2000 9:20 pm

Sounds about right for a Disney animated feature. <BR>
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Postby Elmtree » Wed Sep 13, 2000 9:32 pm

Oh please...no... <BR> <BR>Let's hope that this trash was greatly rewritten, or scrapped. <BR> <BR>An Arwen expansion need not steal from Eowyn, but this does! She's going to battle cloaked, hiding her identity? <BR> <BR>And yes, it is a very childish exchange. I think I'll be ill.
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Postby Orc#5063 » Wed Sep 13, 2000 9:51 pm

Now I'm really scared.
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Postby Elmtree » Wed Sep 13, 2000 10:14 pm

>>ARWEN <BR>I can look after myself as well as any Man! << <BR> <BR> <BR>AAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIII <BR>A Balrog has come! A Balrog has come! <BR> <BR>Or something nearly as horrid! <BR> <BR>Those of you who have read some of my other posts know how much the SEXISM in the above PISSES ME OFF. Where in LOTR is there any such garbage? There is none! <BR> <BR>But if lines like this make it into the movie, there will be sexism there. GRRRR. <BR> <BR>I went and read the rest of the casting script exerpts, and I am discouraged. The good thing-- these are only casting scripts, and may not accurately reflect the actual scripts. One page of the casting script was the original Aragorn/Arwen meeting, pulled almost directly from the appendixes. There was a note that this was not in the actual script, but for the purposes of the audition, they wanted a reading of it. <BR> <BR>Perhaps some of this other horrid stuff is the same. <BR> <BR>Some of the excerpts were wonderful-- especially those that were directly lifted from the dialogue in the books. <BR> <BR>But the parts that were not... you wonder, "what WERE they thinking?" Faramir, slicing open Frodo's vest to reveal the ring on its chain? <BR> <BR>Aragorn, taking the paths of the dead as a shortcut to Minas Tirth, rather than as a way to enlist the help of the dead? <BR> <BR>The lines that came from the book were rich in poetry and power, and the lines that were not from the book were glaringly inferior in quality... it stood out all the more because of the beautiful lines. <BR> <BR>Someone... say something to give me hope again... please... <BR> <BR>(Okay...these are just casting scripts... they may not be the actual lines... they can't be the actual lines... no one would use such lines... ) <BR> <BR>-Elm <BR>("oh, you MAN!") <BR> <BR>
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Postby !ISAIAH! » Wed Sep 13, 2000 10:17 pm

Well now it's time for: OH S&¤T!!!!!!!! this is looking very bad!! <BR> <BR>That's incredible, it's cheesy, it's ... NOOOOOOOOO!! <BR> <BR>That definitely won't work! Hope it's just an auditions script!! <BR> <BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> <BR>Maybe I was hopefull but some of that hope has left for good now!! <BR> <BR>sorry about this but... OH NOOO!!!!!! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> <BR>Those are soooo stupid lines!!
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Postby Elmtree » Wed Sep 13, 2000 10:21 pm

When Isaiah's big smiley faces turn to frowns, you know you things are really sad. <BR>Isaiah usually looks on the bright side of all the movie worries. <BR> <BR>
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Postby Kingasaurus » Wed Sep 13, 2000 10:50 pm

Don't panic, people. <BR> <BR>I read all of the other audition scripts that were posted, and the "Arwen" one (reproduced here) was by far the worst. The other ten or so were audition scripts for other characters and they all sounded significantly better. I'm sure this was due to the fact that the dialog used was based on Tolkien's actual dialog - often verbatim, and usually pretty close. I'm quite happy about that. <BR> <BR>It's pretty obvious that the dialog reads quite good for the most part - the Professor's the original author. When it starts going downhill is when the scriptwriters have to completely make up dialog for INVENTED scenes. Anyone shocked by that? Not me. <BR> <BR>Not compressed scenes. Not adjusted scenes. INVENTED scenes. <BR> <BR>I'm actually LESS worried about the dialog after reading the audition scripts "in toto" than I was before reading them. There's another audition script involving Aragorn and Arwen's first meeting, and it sounds much better because it's based directly on the Appendix from the novel. <BR> <BR>My conclusion is that MOST of the dialog in these movies will sound quite good, with the possible exception of completely INVENTED scenes. I'm hopeful these can be kept to a minimum, especially since the "leaking" of the fact that Arwen's role could be reduced. Keep your fingers crossed. <BR> <BR>Bottom Line? CHEER UP, everyone.... <BR> <BR>...and read the REST of the audition scripts before the lawyers at New Line place some phone calls and have them removed. It's not fair to simply repost the one TERRIBLE script (out of ten or so) and base an opinion on that alone. <BR> <BR>-King <BR>
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Postby Kingasaurus » Wed Sep 13, 2000 11:10 pm

...and Elm - just to disagree with you a bit: The Arwen audition script is BY FAR the worst, and I honestly don't think the other two you quoted are as bad as you think. <BR> <BR>The Faramir scene is based directly on the actual interrogation scene, but it's OBVIOUSLY been compressed mightily. Sam reveals the "Ring" bit almost immediately, which seems to be a quite a bit hasty. But with 6 hours to work with, some of this compression stuff is going to have to happen. The "opening Frodo's shirt" bit is obviously a way for him to get to the "issue" much quicker than the novel does - and I'm assuming Faramir is interrogating Frodo ALONE, rather than in front of his troops. I'm afraid we'll see alot of this "compression" stuff, but the dialog in that scene is nowhere NEAR as bad as the Arwen bits. <BR> <BR>As far as the "Paths of the Dead" script, it's tough to tell exactly how it fits in, but I didn't find the dialog offensive, It's mostly the plot change that would be irritating in that case. <BR> <BR>Again, I'll reiterate: The dialog based on Tolkien's - even loosely - sounds pretty good. The completely invented stuff sounds much worse. Maybe I'm an eternal optimist, but I'd be willing to bet we'll see MUCH more "based-on Tolkien" dialog in the film than completely invented dialog. I'm actually optimistic, believe it or not. <BR> <BR>..Now, if the "impaled wizard" bit ISN'T a gag - then all bets are off, and I'll be loaded for bear coming out of the theater. <BR> <BR>-King <BR>
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Postby Nerdanel » Wed Sep 13, 2000 11:32 pm

I agree with the others that this is by far the worst of the audition scripts we have seen. I don't get it how they can have two women sneaking into a battle. That's 2 of 3 major female roles. The Faramir bit was a little heavy-handed but understandable in the view of compression. The audition script with the Paths of the Dead revises the plot and the geography, but it MIGHT work if we are lucky. I'm a bit sceptic though. <BR> <BR>The other scripts are mostly very good. My favorite is Bilbo's discussion with Gandalf.
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Postby !ISAIAH! » Wed Sep 13, 2000 11:36 pm

<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> <BR> <BR>Elmtree!! You bet I'm sad!! This doesn't look very good!! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> <BR> <BR>
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Postby !ISAIAH! » Thu Sep 14, 2000 12:11 am

How can it be that other scripts we've seen aren't so bolony, but when we have a change to see a script where our XenArwen really speaks it turns out to be naive and something you just can't look at without shutting your eyes! Dammit PJ!! You better work this out! I want to see a good movie! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0>
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Postby Mjolnir » Thu Sep 14, 2000 12:21 am

I'm with Kingasaurus here. I've just read all the posted pieces. Don't panic! The Arwen-piece posted here is the only bad part. The rest of the script is IMHO very true to LOTR and to JRRT. Yes, there are differences in quality between the pieces, but on the whole I got a warm and fuzzy feeling when I read them. The dialogue (except the one posted here) is good and most of the time it's taken directly (or almost directly with very minor change) from the book. <BR> <BR>Go read them for yourselves and make up your own mind. And remember they're only pieces of the script, for good or bad, and we've been informed changes to the script take place when they are shooting (see E!Onlines reports concearning Gandalf and Saruman at Orthanc). <BR> <BR>But this doesn't mean I like Arwen wielding a sword. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> <BR> <BR>Cheers <BR> <BR>Mjolnir
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Postby !ISAIAH! » Thu Sep 14, 2000 12:41 am

Mjolnir!! You promise me?????
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Postby Mjolnir » Thu Sep 14, 2000 1:02 am

I'll promise you everything, !ISAIAH! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> You know that. Well, almost anything. But I don't quite understand your last post. What should I promise you? Good movies? Good dialogue? Would you care to elborate? <BR> <BR>BTW, anyone seen Hama? He's been gone for almost a week now (I think). <BR> <BR>Cheers <BR> <BR>Mjolnir
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Postby !ISAIAH! » Thu Sep 14, 2000 1:08 am

Well of cource!! <BR> <BR>You said: "The dialogue (except the one posted here) is good and most of the time it's taken directly... <BR> <BR>Promise me that it really is good!! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Saranthir » Thu Sep 14, 2000 1:18 am

Hmm, nice, even for a casting script. Did they write this directly for Liv, so as not to tax her acting skills too highly? <BR> <BR>What concerns me more about this is the thinking evident within these few feeble lines. Sure, the rest of the stuff seems OK, some even good, but the thought process behind the Arwen lines is worrying to say the least. <BR> <BR>I've always been gravely concerned about Arwen turning up at the battle of the Pelennor, thinking that she would detract from Eowyn. I just didn't realise how stupid they would be. What, are they going to have Eowyn and Arwen cooking up a plot together about going off to war in disguise? Will, as I suspect, Arwen more or less usurp Eowyn's role? But the lack of skill evident in this writing is almost beyond belief. So what if it was the only one of the casting scripts that was so bad. It only takes one bad apple as they say, and it emphasizes many of our genuine concerns about the expansion of Arwen within the film. <BR> <BR>Obviously no one on board this project has the skill of JRRT and I fear that any expansion will be poorly handled and badly scripted. <BR> <BR>Go on !ISAIAH!, keep up the smilies and remain cheerful. Let's just hope this and other such crap gets left on the cutting room floor.
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Postby !ISAIAH! » Thu Sep 14, 2000 1:45 am

I'm a bit relaxed now!! <BR> <BR>Yes Mjolnir you were right!! <BR> <BR>The Shadow of the past looks great! It will look very good on screen!! <BR>The scene where Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard the first time ends strangely. Maybe PJ will cut other Treebeard scenes out between this scene and the destruction of Orthanc!! <BR> <BR>Though these are just audition scripts! These scenes aren't necessary in the film!! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby roaccarcsson » Thu Sep 14, 2000 5:32 am

The filmmakers have every right to be extremely angry at whoever leaked this. I hope they succeed in tracking him/her down and exacting whatever penalties are available. (Which makes me a hypocrite, because of course I read every word.) <BR> <BR>Try this exercise: If you have access to a copy of any of the volumes of the HoME series dealing with the manuscrips of LotR -- get it out, open it at random, and pick a paragraph. Then pretend the Internet exists in 1950; that we are all a bunch of Hobbit fans exchanging gossip about the long-awaited sequel; and that the Professor's housekeeper stole that page from the manuscript and put it on the Net. Would we not all be going "This is AWFUL! What is with the hobbit with the wooden shoes -- how lame! The poor guy has obviously lost it -- no way am I buying this book." <BR> <BR>(Where is Prankster when we need him?)
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Postby Nienna » Thu Sep 14, 2000 6:23 am

Thanks, Markus! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> <BR> <BR>Well, it appears as if the scene with Boromir holding the ring does not happen at Amon Hen, so I suppose that is a good thing. <BR> <BR>The invented Arwen scene is beyond awful - there are no words to describe how bad it is - at least none that I can use here. It only becomes more glaringly awful when compared to the scenes that were obviously based on Tolkien's words. Perhaps this became apparant to PJ and is why there are now rumours about some of Liv's scenes being cut. One can only hope.... <BR> <BR>I must say, though, that if the Arwen garbage is an example of the Jackson/Walsh writing team's work, it's a bit of an embarrassment.... <BR> <BR>If that scene remains in the movie, there is no way in hell that I or any memeber of my family will see them.
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Postby Wildwood » Thu Sep 14, 2000 6:42 am

Well, I am at a complete and utter loss! I am having trouble even finishing sentences that I begin, so unable am I to articulate what these *scripts* have inspired witin me! <BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> <BR> <BR>I have known for some time that I would rather be drawn and quartered than go see these bad excuses for movies, and I had even pretty much sworn off even discussing it here....my favorite place, once upon a time, for discussing them. But this.....good grief! <BR> <BR>The thing with Arwen and Aragorn, where she *defiantly* joins him in battle, and then holds a sword to his throat in order to prove that she can be tough....oh yes, so much in the real, true spirit of Tolkien, that. <BR> <BR>And what of Faramir and Frodo's encounter? Not so far from the original? Understandable in interests of compression? Give me a break! First off, Sam just blurts out all about the ring...one hopes that no soldiers but Faramir will be there to hear that blunder. Then, Faramir's mind just makes this lightening fast calculation and knows, suddenly exactly what Sam is referring too, and just to make things easier EXACTLY WHERE UPON FRODO'S PERSON HE SHOULD SLICE AWAY THE CLOTHING, IN ORDER TO REVEAL IT! To cap things off, lets have Faramir be very menacing and rude and uncivil to his guests, as well, hmmm? <BR> <BR>Certianly, it is not exactly like the books, but as long as they maintian the *spirit* of the story, isn't that what matters? None of that drivel is in the *spirit* of LOTR! Arwen - for that matter, no other elf, either - would behave so. Faramir would certainly not have behaved so. And Sam wouldn't have been that much of a ninnyhammer, regardless of what he says of himself! <BR> <BR>(God, I am soooooooooooo glad that they all keep copies of LOTR handy to consult with when they are unsure of how to proceed. So heartening to know how much stock they place in the original material...like a bible on the set, really. Now, just let me thumb here to the part where Faramir and Frodo meet, cause I'm not sure how much emphasis I should use when I slice away his vest to reveal the ring...wouldn't want to violate the spirit of the story, hmmm?) <BR> <BR>Compression. Fine, I can live with that. But this...this is like amputating a whole arm to correct a hang nail! <BR> <BR>I have only read a few of these. I actually found them before they were announced on this site, and was in such a crabby mood yesterday, after having read them, that I could hardly stand myself! This is going to be so much worse than even *I* have feared, and I have feared plenty, let me tell ya. <BR> <BR>The last drop was when the confirmation from Xoanon came through. Upset that the casting scripts got out? I imagine so! Kinda like a chef would feel if he put dog crap in the main course, but the waiter sneaks and tells the secret before the chef has had the chance to serve it up! <BR> <BR>Man, I didn't think it was possible to feel such ire and enmity toward something associated with LOTR, but PJ - that amazingly talented re-writer - has actually done it! <BR> <BR>Well, I am thoroughly convinced that I need counseling, now....<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> <BR> <BR>So - that's the end of my rant, and no one need bother replying to it, cause it was exactly that: a rant. Not aimed at any one person or even idea...meant only for me to blow off some steam (there was a lot of it...actually, there still is)...and I don't intend to discuss this horrid project ever again....I think. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> <BR> <BR>Of course, I didn't intend to discuss it this time either...so who can say? Whatever. If my diatribe upsets, then just ignore it. It's just a frantic little woman who has watched a dream come true turn into a nightmare come true, and can't do diddly to stop it. Also - no point trying to cheer me up...can't be done, in this case! <BR> <BR>Ya'll get busy trying to paint a pretty face on this crap, and reconcile it all away, and get back to your usual entusiasm. Just beware. If this isn't a red flag warning of bad things to come, I don't know what could be! <BR><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0>
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Postby Gungnir » Thu Sep 14, 2000 6:52 am

Two quick points <BR> <BR>Firstly as has been said, it is a casting script - we know that PJ was "In scriptwriting hell" in January 1999 (AICN Interview)- this stuff will not make it to the screen. <BR> <BR>Secondly, it is painfully obvious which dialogue is Tolkien's and which isn't. I think it is a testament to the power of Tolkien's writing that his stands head and shoulders above that of an oscar nominated screenwriting team. <BR> <BR>Oh all right, a third point, "Tucker"!?!?!? So these are antipodean Hobbits, I presume. I doubt whether Tolkien would have used Australian (And Kiwi?) slang. <BR> <BR>In conclusion, yes, the casting scripts are not that good. I have higher hopes for the shooting scripts though. Let's all just calm down a bit, eh? (I think maybe that should be my sig)
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Postby Saranthir » Thu Sep 14, 2000 7:16 am

So then, Gungnir, are we to presume that this script writing hell that PJ was in during 1999 has come to and end, that he and his side kick have experienced some sort of epiphany? Personally I don't think so. If they handled these casting scripts with such an utter lack of skill, vision or understanding - when compared with JRRT's stuff, then why should we assume that they have got any better now? Sure, the actual words and even scenes in these scripts may not appear verbatim, or at all, but they show an inkling of the directors intent and a snapshot of his ability. <BR> <BR>This, coupled with the Gothic Victorian Vampire masquerading as Arwen and the Zorro/Rockstar of Aragorn fills me with forboding. Jaesus, even you Gungnir could agree that Viggo's garb is not what any sensible Ranger of the North would have swathed himself in, surely. And what the hell is Arwen supposed to look like? <BR> <BR>And Tucker, tucker - I need to talk to BlueKangaroo about this - only he/she seems to have vanished. Possible had not the stamina to withstand the slings'n'arrows........ <BR> <BR>I need some pills, preferable Holstein. <BR>
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Postby Kingasaurus » Thu Sep 14, 2000 7:21 am

--Ya'll get busy trying to paint a pretty face on this crap, and reconcile it all away, and get back to your usual entusiasm. Just beware. If this isn't a red flag warning of bad things to come, I don't know what could be! --- <BR> <BR>Uh, Wildwood.... <BR> <BR>Except for the Arwen invented scene - which I agree is beyond horrible - the overwhelming majority of the other stuff is based - anything between "loosely" and "verbatim" - on Tolkien's actual dialog. <BR> <BR>It's actually better than I expected, and my expectations were pretty low. I remember when the terrible Arwen audition script first leaked months ago, and people were afraid the whole movie would sound like that. I, for one, am extremely glad it won't. <BR> <BR>The Bilbo-Gandalf and Saruman-Theoden stuff is excellent. Am I the only one surprised that "gibbets and crows..." is actually a line of dialog? I figured New Line would be afraid that the 14-year-old boys of America would have no clue what a "gibbet" is, and would cut a line like that. I'm actually encouraged - and I'm hardly an unapologetic revisionist PJ rumpswab. <BR> <BR>Does this really depress you? What WERE you expecting, I wonder? Actual transcription from the book - word for word for every line? <BR> <BR>-King <BR>
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Postby Gadget » Thu Sep 14, 2000 7:33 am

I must say that the scene of Aragorn and Arwen meeting for the first time was almost as bad as the invented scene of Arwen going to war! Yes it was based on Tolkien's dialoge but with every other sentance cut out and half the remaining ones altered just enough to make it seem choppy and lame. I didn't really care for the scene of Aragorn asking Legolas to look at Minus Tirith, that seemed really choppy and forced. It seems that the script writers have trouble when their doing a wholly new scene or trying to interpret some of the more delicate romantic scenes. <BR> <BR>Other than that, I was fairly impressed! Most of the rest were spot on. I only hoped they worked out those lame parts of the script before or during shooting.
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Postby Prankster » Thu Sep 14, 2000 8:05 am

NAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!!!! SHUT UP WHINERS!!!! <BR> <BR>Gasp. Pant. Get under control. Ok. Ok. It's just a movie. They have a right to their opinion. Ok. <BR> <BR>No, I can't do it. NAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!! <BR> <BR>Are you people insane? Can you turn off your paranoia and subjectivity for two seconds? Do you not realize what kind of leaps you're making here? <BR> <BR>This script fragment RELIEVES me. HUGELY. If you would actually pay attention, you will note it actually DESTROYS most of the fears we've had about Arwen--assuming this ends up in the actual movie, which is by no means certain, I suppose, but it does give an indication into their thinking with Arwen. <BR> <BR>OK, I'll say it now: I don't like scritps. Any script feels weak, watered down, simplistic, and tinny, no matter how brilliant the dialogue. A script takes away the writerly richness of a book, and obviously it can't provide the liveliness of a movie. It's just a blueprint, a technical thing with little art to reading it: its chief power lies in imagining what could be. I note that even Tolkien's dialogue seems rather tinny on the page (though I must admit, that is some of the most affecting screenwriting I've read--it DID come close to bringing the movie to life for me...but there's still something "missing" as there is for all scripts). <BR> <BR>Do you see where I'm going here? To me compaints that the dialogue is trite or flat or anything else seem kind of hard to swallow, because ALL the dialogue comes out that way. We're familiar with the rest from the book, so perhaps we can overlook it. But still, there are bits there that just seem like they'll be laughable...I have no idea how they're going to pull off Boromir's "Frodo! Come back! It was madness!" or Elrond's monologue. I'm not saying it can't be done; not at all. I just think, reading it on the page, I can't get a sense of those words being spoken naturalistically. And this despite the changes which have been made to make the dialogue more "speakable"--a good job, if you ask me. It's not becuase of bad writing; it's just a property of scripts. <BR> <BR>So, putting aside the question of whether these reflect the final drafts at all (remember, McKellen said the scripts had been made "much better" since then) let's look at what's revealed here. <BR> <BR>It looks like Arwen rides after Aragorn with the intention of joining him in battle. <BR> <BR>Well, we knew that, and it's pretty much inevitable; if Arwen's going to have a bigger part at all, she's going to have to be prepared to ride through a battle. Fair enough. Her picking up a sword doesn't make her a warrior. <BR> <BR>Indeed, the revelation here is that she's NOT a warrior. She's willing to try, but she can't handle herself in battle. Aragorn doesn't take her seriously. Will she end up fighting? I find it hard to swallow, given this dialogue. <BR> <BR>As for the cloaked thing, calling it a "disguise" is a stretch. There's not even any evidence that she was deliberately keeping it a secret--just that Aragorn didn't recognize her right away. We know she's not going to be wearing battle armour. We know this can't be Pelannor, since he wouldn't be surprised to see her if she'd already been at Helm's Deep. We know from the OTHER fragment that Eowyn still kills the Witch-King. And the Paths of the Dead bit didn't seem to contain Arwen (hard to tell, though). <BR> <BR>So what have we learned here? That Arwen will be riding after Aragorn, not as a seasoned warrior, but as a woman in love willing to face danger she can't handle. Sounds fair enough to me.
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Postby Ringbearer » Thu Sep 14, 2000 8:22 am

Ok, I dont have anything particularly new to add ... but I do agree about the casting hell that Jackson was talking about. After all the negative response from all but about 3\% of the people who heard about the Arwen expansion, and the rumored cutbacks in her scenes .. etc. it is likely that these lines will not make it to the movie. This is assuming that this is real even. I dont care who claims its real .. unless it is New Line and PJ himself. I think that getting too terribly riled up over a casting script (from the 2 script version that we know was trashed?) that is a year old. Although I am anxiously awaiting Kelennar's response to this.
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