Falborn
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2002 7:13 pm |
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In letter #211 Tolkien writes:
..."Even the 'good' Valar as inhabiting the World could at least err; as did the Great Valar did in their dealings with the Elves..."
How did they err? By revealing themselves in their fullness to the Elves?
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crispycreme
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2002 8:35 pm |
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Well, leaving aside the selfishness the Valar exerted by desiring the Firstborn to live with them in Valinor (under the pretext of protecting them from Morgoth), I think there's clear examples of how they erred:
1. Underestimating the innate evil of Morgoth. They (the Valar) had no real conception of evil, so they (foolishly) assumed that Morgoth was cured, and let him walk free among the Noldor, and in doing so allowed him to corrupt an otherwise noble people.
2. Failing to understand Feanor. His mother (an immortal elf of high elven blood), passed away soon after his birth - his spirit was that fierce - but apparently the Valar never kept much of a close eye on him until it was far too late (witness all that happened thereafter).
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The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" but "That's funny..."
- Isaac Asimov |
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Lady_Aredhel
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2002 8:40 pm |
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Yes, I have read this in Unfinished Tales. I think they erred perhaps in trying to "protect" the elves too much by bringing them to Valinor. They sheltered them, and ultimately the Noldor rebelled. The Valar saw the error in this, and decided to try to help, by sending the Istari over in the third age when Sauron re-emerged.
Lady A.
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ArPharazon
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2002 11:29 pm |
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Lady Aredhel has it right, I think. 
It is complex because the motives of the Valar were always "good" - their intentions were to protect the first born of Iluvatar from evil and (although Fingolfin of the Noldor would no doubt disagree!! ) to prevent their perversion into orcs by Melkor.
But in effect they made Valinor a prison for the elves - so that good became evil - and that in itself led to the glorious tragedy which was the history of the Noldor in particular. Yet was that all bad? Much of the culture and richness of the elvish achievement grew out of the rebellion.
Moreover, one could argue that all of this was a part of the Great Music - that the actions of the Valar and the elves were pre-ordained to a degree. No doubt there will be much discussion of this in the Virtual Study group at the appropriate time.
Tolkien may here also have been exploring one of the paradoxes of orthodox Christianity - the question of free-will. If man does not have free will, he is in a sense enslaved (if only to God, good) and thus limited. If he has free will, he can do evil, go into danger, take unwise (from the perspective of the Creator that is) paths.
But is not trustworthiness better than dependence and blind submission? Is not the one who does "right" because he wants to do it, more pariseworthy than one who is compelled?
Equally is not an understanding voluntary trust in someone, arrived at through choice, a greater gift than either blind faith or compulsion?
These I think are some of the questions at the heart of the erring of the Valar. There is another recentish thread about Manwe forgiving Melkor and whether he understood evil, which reflects another strand of the topic, somewhere.
What the Valar ommitted to do - in modern management speak - was to "empower" the elves. The Valar tried to micro-manage, rather than retain strategic authority and "delegate". They confused their aims and objectives, lost vision and became defensive and over-protective.
In this they perhaps erred - but did they do wrong? Or was it all conducive to and part of the overall plan for Arda, known only to Iluvatar. Somewhere Eru/Iluvatar says to Melkor that all his mischief only helps to achieve Eru's intent and thus ultimately works for good. The same might be said of the Valar's actions.
Sorry if I have not expressed some emerging, complex, and probably half-baked ideas very well.
I am certain that this will be more thoroughly debated soon by our friends in the study group so you may wish to postpone further discussion til it comes up there.
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Lady_Aredhel
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2002 3:34 am |
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Ar-Pharazon
As always, like your insights in your posts I don't think the Valar erred in doing what they did, initially anyways. And, recall, they also did similar to men in creating the land of Numenor. They kept the men there, gave them their own "paradise", within sight of Tol Eressea. Yet, somehow they didn't realize that the men would grow restless, and eventually rebel against the ban. The results of course were devastating.
I believe that after the disaster of Numenor, that is when the Valar basically decided to keep out of the business of ME. They did nothing else directly, with the exception of sending the Istari in the third age to help with the threat of Sauron. They finally knew that the fate of ME was not up to them, nor the fate of man. This of course would play into the free will you were alluding to; even the Istari were forbidden to use their powers to sway or interfere with the affairs of ME. They were simply to try to reason with the Elves and men, but in the form of men. And, of course, Gandalf was successful in his endeavor.
Lady A.
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Falborn
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2002 3:55 am |
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Thanks for the replies! I believe I understand their failure with Feanor and the error of believing Melkor, the overall error of loving the Elves too deeply, or desiring them too much is the part I'm trying to get.
Some of the key words from your posts Crispy Creme, Lady Aredhel and ArPharazon were selfishness, sheltering and disempowering.
What occurs to me reading your responses is that the Valar with their wisdom derived from the experience of living many ages in Arda, knew that for themselves, they needed a home or homeland that was free from evil in order to endure their immortality. They thus knew that the same would be true for the immortal Elves; the Elves would not have the power to create such a home and would thus have to come to live in their home in the West. But the Valar did not allow the Elves to discover these things themselves, which would be a large part of their contribution to the music - ultimately fulfilled by the Exiles.
And this is where I get stuck - the Valar's basic strategy with the Elves was to speak to them openly and directly. Was this their error? That in speaking directly with the Elves they were beings of a higher order speaking with beings of a lesser order - thus the disempowerment?
I do look forward to the study group.
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ArPharazon
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Posted: Fri May 24, 2002 9:58 am |
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Bumping this so it is not lost sight of when the Virtual Study group gets going next week.
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greenleafwood
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Posted: Fri May 24, 2002 2:48 pm |
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bump.
I agree with crispycreme about the Valar underrating Melkor's evil intentions. True, the Valar were overprotective of the Elves and should have given them time to accustom themselves to the World and grow wise independently. But they probably thought Melkor had the upper hand in the World anyways and they would have lost the Elves if they had not acted sooner.
But as Iluvatar said, all things work to his good, so we do not know the outcome.
Regarding Falborn's question about the Valar speaking openly with the Elves (higher order vs lower order): if you look at it from a Christian point of view, that man ("lower" can speak directly with God or Christ ("higher", this would generally serve to strengthen the relationship, which would be personalized but not disempowering, IMO.
greenleaf
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Falborn
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Posted: Fri May 24, 2002 7:59 pm |
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Greenleafwood, your post reminded me of a comment in one of Tolkien's letters that in Arda the only approach to Iluvatar was through the Valar. If I find the comment I will edit it in.
But to respond to your point, it could be argued that a living, breathing walking around god is different from a god of faith. Is that where the Valar erred with the Elves?
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greenleafwood
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Posted: Sun May 26, 2002 12:34 pm |
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I'm bumping this thread as I'm still assembling my thoughts about the Valar-Eldar relationship and hope someone may have thoughts to share.
Did you find the comment, Falborn? I'd be keen to read that, thanks.
greenleaf
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Falborn
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Posted: Sun May 26, 2002 6:52 pm |
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Greenleaf, with your encouragement I found the quote from letter #297. It is a long letter that concludes with a fascinating discussion about the Anglo-Saxon word erendel and Tolkien's creation of the legend of Earendil. The letter ends:
'The use of earendel in Anglo-Saxon Christian symbolism as the herald of the rise of the true Sun in Crist is completely alien to my use. The Fall of Man is in the past and off stage; the Redemption of Man in the far future. We are in a time when the One God, Eru, is known to exist by the wise, but is not approachable save by or through the Valar, though He is still remembered in (unspoken) prayer by those of Numenorean descent.'
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scirocco
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Posted: Thu May 1, 2003 1:37 am |
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Surely Tolkien would have intended us to view the Hiding of Valinor after the Revolt of the Noldor as one of the Valars' greatest errors. This was a rejecting, excluding, possessive act, although they claimed the justification of protecting those Elves still remaining in Valinor. Instead of dealing with Melkor, they hid behind their boundaries, shut themselves off from the problems of Middle-earth and avoided their responsibilities. Their interest was only to perpetuate the bliss to which they had become accustomed. Only Ulmo maintained his protection in Middle-earth.
Compare this with the Valar's original act of bringing the Elves to Valinor in the first place, which is often considered a mistake. The Valar may have had some selfish motives for doing so, such as the desire to enjoy the beauty of the Eldar, but their primary motivation seems to have been protection, sharing and enlightenment.
In my view the hiding of Valinor is the greater error.
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Hedwig
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Posted: Fri Apr 7, 2006 2:07 am |
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I treat one of the diggest valars errs their curse of elves  I strongly doubt Iluvatar gave them power to do that. 
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Maegnas
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Fri Apr 7, 2006 5:42 am |
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Hedwig I think you got it wrong. The Valar did not curse the Elves in general. They cursed that part of the Noldor that took part in the rebellion, in the Kinslaying and especially Feanor and his House for the Oath they took (remember the Oath said they'd fight any Vala, Elf... so in a way Feanor turned against them - again!). Finarfin's folk sook pardon and it was given to them, how would that be if the Valar had cursed
all
Elves? Even all Noldor?
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