Sailing over the sea: questions after a second reading...

Discuss Tolkien's masterpieces within the walls of this forum.

Postby Arion » Wed Jun 19, 2002 1:30 am

Just finished the books for a second time and couldn't wait to jump on the forum. I've a few questions though.<BR><BR>All right. In the end, after Rosie dies eventually, Sam joins Gandalf, Frodo, Galadriel, Elrond, and Bilbo as they all cross over the sea to....where? Do they indeed go to Valinor where everyone lives happily ever after?<BR><BR>Also, after the death of Ellesar (Aragorn), do Legolas and Gimli then go the Valinor as well? I know it is said that the grace of Galadriel allowed the dwarf to go but my question is, "go where?"<BR><BR>I've searched past posts, yet I was still unable to find an answer to these few questions. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Hopefully I'll have more luck now! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR><b>Arion</b>
User avatar
Arion
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 867
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:50 am
Top

Postby Birch_Tree » Wed Jun 19, 2002 1:44 am

<i>All right. In the end, after Rosie dies eventually, Sam joins Gandalf, Frodo, Galadriel, Elrond, and Bilbo as they all cross over the sea to....where? Do they indeed go to Valinor where everyone lives happily ever after?</i><BR><BR>I think they did end up there but their boat could of sunk and they all died alone and in the sea. not all died just the hobbits the others can live forever kinda.<BR><BR><BR><i>Also, after the death of Ellesar (Aragorn), do Legolas and Gimli then go the Valinor as well? I know it is said that the grace of Galadriel allowed the dwarf to go but my question is, "go where?"</i><BR><BR>I think legolas went to Valinor because he is a elf. The fate of Gimli I do not know but it said that he might have went with Legolas....
User avatar
Birch_Tree
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 1278
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2002 1:39 am
Location: New Zealand
Top

Postby Sulring » Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:46 am

<BR>I'm not certain of this, but I had a fairly strong idea that the Ringbearers and Co. (with the exception of Mithrandir, I guess) only made it to Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle. I believe that was where the Exiles returned at the end of the First Age - the Noldor and some of the Sindar, after the War of Wrath. And if Valinor was barred even to them, I find it hard to believe that mortals would be allowed to pass to the Uttermost West. Again, I'm not sure of this, but I'm reasonably certain I've read something along these lines somewhere. Can anyone confirm this?
User avatar
Sulring
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu May 04, 2000 3:22 pm
Top

Postby Armenelos » Wed Jun 19, 2002 10:49 am

yeah, but sam didn't go on the same boat as the rest of those.<BR><BR>he came back to the shire and married rosie and kids and grandkids and became mayor many times, and then took ship.<BR><BR>and it says that MAYBE gimli went with legolas, but it was never said for certain. and yes, the exiles could only go to eressea, but there's always exceptions here and there so there's a chance that any of them could've actually set foot upon aman.
User avatar
Armenelos
Mariner

 
Posts: 6670
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:44 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Wed Jun 19, 2002 11:57 am

In Letter 154 (1954), JRRT makes it clear that Gimli does indeed go to Aman: <UL><BR>(...) and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant'of Galadriel.</UL><BR><BR>As to what happens in Aman: in Letter 325 (1971):<UL><BR>As for <i>Frodo</i> or other mortals, they could only dwell in <i>Aman</i> for a limited time -whether brief or long. The <i>Valar</i> had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (<i>die</i> at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.</UL> <BR><BR>Despite exploration of this idea in many threads, nobody has definitively shown that the Ringbearers only went to Tol Eressëa, indeed, many people, myself included, argue that they would at least visit Valinor, and perhaps be presented to the Valar.<BR><BR>(Clarification: Tol Eressëa is <i>part</i> of Aman; it was the easternmost of the Undying lands ).<BR><BR>(Edit: see my subsequent posts for Tol Eressëa as destination reference; that is to say, in light of more evidence, I have revised my opinion, however, <i>residing</i> in Tol Eressëa still need not preclude visits to Valinor or Tirion.)<BR><BR>See Related Threads...<BR><a target="_blank" href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=44098">What happens to Bilbo and Frodo in the West?</a><BR><a target="_blank" href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=46120"><strike>The Ringbearers in the West- what then?</strike></a> [Archived and no longer available <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> ]<BR><a target="_blank" href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=69202">The extent of Arwen's Power</a><BR><a target="_blank" href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=61274">Grey Havens</a> <BR><a target="_blank" href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=28890">Mithrandir/Gandalf/Olorin</a>-especially the last two pages).
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby Armenelos » Wed Jun 19, 2002 12:28 pm

thanks for the info Romestano
User avatar
Armenelos
Mariner

 
Posts: 6670
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:44 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Top

Postby Legolas128 » Wed Jun 19, 2002 3:31 pm

ok this sort of has to do with this topic but can someone explain this map. i can't figure out what the blue part is? its probably my dumb and i've probably heard about it before but what is it? and aren't they missing harad on the middle-earth map?<BR><BR> http://www.fantasyplanet.cz/lotr/pictur ... 5F47%2Ejpg
User avatar
Legolas128
Rider of the Mark
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:03 pm
Top

Postby Armenelos » Wed Jun 19, 2002 8:11 pm

ah that's a good map, one of my favorites, all of the blue is beleriand before it was ruined in the War of Wrath. this way you can see where it's borders ran into the rest of middle-earth.
User avatar
Armenelos
Mariner

 
Posts: 6670
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:44 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Thu Jun 20, 2002 12:03 am

This map has been discussed at <a target=new href="http:// http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhiteco ... adid=48793">* Ooooh, I see! Have a look at what I found *</a><BR><BR>The composite map 'merges' two maps and purports to show how Beleriand from the First Age was related to the rest of Middle-earth. However, the two maps used have different scales and cannot be joined without re-scaling. Hence the joined map is inaccurate. For proof, the island of Himling from the Third Age map (see UT) would be at the region of the 'A' in Thargelion on the joined map. Yet Himling was the hill of Himring from the First Age... So while a clever idea, the execution has been let down by lack of attention to detail.<BR><BR>(edited to tidy link)
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby Armenelos » Thu Jun 20, 2002 12:14 am

hm, i still think that it is a very good map and gives a different perspective that others may not have seen before. like when i first read the silmarillion, i hadn't the slightest idea of how big it really was until i looked at a few map after reading it couple times (this was before the internet had images so i didn't see that map until later).
User avatar
Armenelos
Mariner

 
Posts: 6670
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:44 pm
Location: Tampa, FL
Top

Postby scirocco » Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:49 pm

Oops, previously posted this in the wrong thread.<BR><BR>Just a note to the issue of whether they ended up in Valinor or Tol Eressea: JRRT made a comment on this in Letter 131, the one to Milton Waldman, the publisher, where he summarises the events of LOTR. Unfortunately, this is not contained in the published "Letters". Fortunately, Christopher Tolkien included the missing piece in "Sauron Defeated", in the Epilogue chapter. Note these are JRRT's words, not CT's:<BR><BR><i>They ride to the Grey Havens, and take ship: Gandalf with the Red Ring, Elrond (with the Blue) and the greater part of his household, and Galadriel of Lorien with the White Ring, and with them depart Bilbo and Frodo. It is hinted that they come to Eressea.</i><BR><BR>Well, it isn't hinted that they come to Eressea rather than Valinor: you can't tell from the LOTR text. All JRRT means to convey here is that this is much more than a simple journey on the surface of Middle-Earth, which is what the casual reader might think. And he may mention it simply because you would reach Tol Eressea before the shores of Valinor. Nonetheless, the reference to Eressea MAY suggest that that is the destination he had in mind for them. And it seems to me a more fitting place for the hobbits and Legolas and Gimli, given Legolas's Sindarin/Teleri descent. Galadriel, Gandalf (and possibly Elrond, I'm not sure) would probably carry on to Valinor itself.<BR>
User avatar
scirocco
Ranger of the North
 
Posts: 2103
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 6:12 am
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Thu Jun 27, 2002 6:32 pm

<strong>Armenelos</strong>: <em>hm, i still think that it is a very good map and gives a different perspective that others may not have seen before</em><BR><BR><strong>Fingolfin_of_the_Noldor</strong> has found a better combined map. While smaller and more difficult to read, it gives a far more accurate idea of Middle-earth in the First Age than the distorted inaccurate map you advocate<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> . It can be found at (original map no longer available.)<BR>(Edit: I have hunted down Fonstad's <a href='http://lotrmaps.middle-earth.us/index.php?tab=maps&page=Map sets&catID=21&subCatID=12' target=_blank>1st Age Map (it's the third one)</a> instead. It is a little slow to load, but is a far superior reconstruction of Middle-earth in the First Age.)<BR><BR><strong>scirocco </strong>: <em>Galadriel, Gandalf (and possibly Elrond, I'm not sure) would probably carry on to Valinor itself.</em><BR><BR>As a previously exiled 'Rebel', Galadriel would have to reside in Tol Eressëa (after perhaps presenting herself to the Ring of Doom to express her contrition and receive forgiveness).<BR><BR>(Edit to add new map link to replace broken one)<BR>[Edit to fix replacement map link].
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Sun Jun 30, 2002 10:34 am

In a passage in 'Reincarnation of Elves' (Morgoth's Ring, Pg 365), CJRT cites JRRT: <UL><BR>'the exact nature of existence in Aman or Eressëa after their "removal" must be dubious and unexplained', as must the question of 'how "mortals" could go there at all.' On this he observed that Eru had 'long before' committed the Dead of mortals also to Mandos; cf. QS §86 (V.247): 'What befell their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves; and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Western Sea.' <b>'The sojourn of Frodo' (he went on) 'in Eressëa</b>- then on to Mandos?- was only an extended form of this...'</UL><BR><BR>Thus it seems clear that Frodo spent his final days in Tol Eressëa except perhaps for a final journey to Mandos before (and/or after <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> ) he died.<BR><BR>(Edit to add bolding for emphasis)
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby Legolas128 » Sun Jun 30, 2002 12:12 pm

Legolas and gimli did sail to valinor in the end even though gimli was a dwarf he had an elf with him so he was able to go.
User avatar
Legolas128
Rider of the Mark
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:03 pm
Top

Postby greenleafwood » Mon Jul 01, 2002 4:13 pm

For years I thought Gimli went with Legolas, but after the last reading, the cloud finally lifted from my eyes:<i>We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Gloin's son with him ...If this is true, then it is strange indeed..."</i><BR><BR>Now I really don't know if this was actually a rumor. Maybe I always wanted to believe in a happy ending for everyone, but I'm beginning to have my doubts. Awww!<BR><BR><BR>greenleaf<BR>
User avatar
greenleafwood
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 1882
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 3:03 pm
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:09 am

See my previous post in this thread citing Letter 154.<BR><BR>'In Letter 154 (1954), JRRT makes it clear that Gimli does indeed go to Aman: <i>... and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant'of Galadriel.</i>'<BR><BR>
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby greenleafwood » Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:40 pm

thank you -Romestamo- *slap myself for missing that*. Well, I'll rest easy tonight thinking of Gimli out west with Legolas.<BR><BR>greenleaf<BR><BR>edit note: I haven't read Letters yet, but it strikes me how much one would reap by reading it. Does it say anywhere in the main books (Preface, Foreword or Appendix) that Letters should count as recommended reading?
User avatar
greenleafwood
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 1882
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 3:03 pm
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:48 pm

"The Letters of JRR Tolkien" (Edited by Humphrey Carpenter with the assistance of Christopher Tolkien) was first published in 1981, and so is not mentioned anywhere in LotR. They are well worth reading and provide many insights into JRRT's life and works.
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby Novice » Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:53 pm

Bumped to prevent descent into the bowels of archives.
User avatar
Novice
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2791
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:19 pm
Top

Postby Cathryn » Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:21 am

I reckon they did all go to Valinor -- there isn't that much of a difference between Valinor and Tol Eressea anyway, and even the Teleri probably visited Valinor at lest once. About Letters, it was published posthumously wasn't it? That would seem likely.
User avatar
Cathryn
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:49 pm
Top

Postby Ilfrith » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:52 am

What I never liked was the statement that they weren't made immortal by going to the undying lands. I liked it much better when I only read LOTR and thought they would live forever. Tolkien's letters ruined that for me. I always equated Valinor as sort of like Heaven, but that wasn't exactly what Tolkien was shooting for. Oh well.
User avatar
Ilfrith
Ranger of the North
 
Posts: 1017
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 7:41 pm
Location: across the street from central command
Top

Postby jallan » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:57 am

Tolkien usually distinguishes very carefully between Aman and Eressëa though occassionally he uses <em>Aman</em> for both.<BR><BR>For a long period of time, even after completing <em>The Lord of the Rings</em>, continued to include in his writings references to the mortal Ælfwine who had sailed to Eressëa. It is very doubtful from Tolkien's writings at the same periods that Ælfwine or any mortal would be allowed to go to Valinor proper.<BR><BR>Of course Galadriel expressed in the poem <em>Namárië</em> the wish that Frodo might find Valinor. But Tolkien explains in letter 297:<BR><BR><< Hence she concludes her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in Eressea, the Solitary Isle in sight of Aman, though for her the way is closed. (The Land of Aman after the downfall of Númenor, was no longer in physical existence 'within the circles of the world'.) Her prayer was granted – but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship. >><BR><BR>Again we find Tolkien insisting on Eressëa specifically.<BR><BR>From Letter 131, the Milton Waldman letter which also apears in current editions of <em>The Silmarillion</em>, we learn:<BR><BR><< We learn that the Exiled Elves were, if not commanded, at least sternly counselled to return into the West, and there be at peace. They were not to dwell permanently in Valinor again, but in the Lonely Isle of Eressëa within sight of the Blessed Realm. >><BR><BR>Even the Noldor on their return to the West must make their homes in the Loneely Isle and are not allowed to dwell permanently in Valinor.<BR><BR>Accordingly while the possiblity exists, as there may always be exceptions, that Bilbo or Frodo or both were allowed a visit to Valinor proper, the place to which they went to dwell must certainly was Tol Eressëa.<BR><BR><BR><BR>
User avatar
jallan
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 885
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 12:39 pm
Top

Postby Elflover » Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:22 pm

I don't understand why the exiles would not be able to go to Valinor itself. What about seeing their friends and family? Doesn't it say in The Silmarillion that Finrod walks with his father Finwe? Why wouldn't the others be allowed to go as well?<BR><BR>It doesn't seem practical to have all of the exiles on the island of Eressea. The exiles made up the bulk of the Elven population, yet they get only a small island to spend eternity? I've always been under the impression that Valinor itself is huge. There certainly would be more room for the Elven population there.
User avatar
Elflover
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 1696
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2002 9:43 pm
Location: Arizona
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Sat Mar 27, 2004 9:05 pm

Elflover : I don't understand why the exiles would not be able to go to Valinor itself. What about seeing their friends and family? Doesn't it say in The Silmarillion that Finrod walks with his father Finwe? Why wouldn't the others be allowed to go as well?

Dwelling on Tol Eressëa does not preclude visits to Valinor - nor is there evidence for any restriction on journeys from Valinor to the isle.
And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.

'Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath', The Silmarillion.

Thus kin can visit each other even though the Exiles are restricted to dwelling on the Lonely Isle. Finrod and Finwë are not useful examples: both were slain. While Finrod walks with Finarfin his father in Eldamar, it is uncertain whether Finwë was permitted re-embodiment. However, it is clear that Finrod was eventually re-embodied within Aman after leaving the halls of Mandos, and he would thus probably reside in the original Noldor lands in Valinor.
    -------------------------
Elflover : It doesn't seem practical to have all of the exiles on the island of Eressea. The exiles made up the bulk of the Elven population, yet they get only a small island to spend eternity?

While the Noldor were the most numerous group within Aman, it was not by much, and the Úmanyar were more numerous than those that went to Aman:
According to the Noldorin historians the proportions, out of 144, that when the March began became Avari or Eldar were approximately so:
    Minyar 14: Avari 0 Eldar 14
    Tatyar 56: Avari 28 Eldar 28
    Nelyar 74: Avari 28 Eldar 46 > Amanyar Teleri 20; Sindar and Nandor 26
In the result the Noldor were the largest clan of Elves in Aman; while the Elves that remained in Middle-earth (the Moriquendi in the Quenya of Aman) outnumbered the Amanyar in the proportion of 82 to 62.

'Quendi and Eldar', The War of the Jewels.

Ninety per cent of the Noldor left Tirion (although some returned with Finarfin), so using the same proportionality (and assuming equivalent rates of reproduction in all these Elvish groups so that relative proportions are maintained), perhaps 20-22 (of the original 28 ) of the Tatyarin Eldar (the Noldor) returned to Middle-earth. Thus the Exiles were marginally fewer than the Sindar and Nandor; and much less than the numbers of Avarin Elves and so were not <the bulk of the Elven population>.

JRRT's early writings in The Book of Lost Tales identified the Lonely Island with Great Britain.
[..] the Elvish isle to which Eriol came was England - that is to say, Tol Eressëa would become England, the land of the English, at the end of the story.

The Book of Lost Tales.

Although this is an early idea and it is unknown how applicable these thoughts are to the later Legendarium, it can be infered that Tol Eressëa was initially thought to be of the same dimensions as the island of Great Britain - and thus capable of supporting a reasonably large population.

While returning Exiles were if not commanded, at least sternly counselled to return into the West, and there be at peace. They were not to dwell permanently in Valinor again, but in the Lonely Isle of Eressëa within sight of the Blessed Realm, it must be remembered that large numbers of the Noldor (and the Sindar too for that matter) returned to the West after the Battles of Beleriand, the War of Wrath, the War of the Elves and Sauron and the War of the Last Alliance via the Halls of Mandos. The slain (if permitted re-embodiment) eventually returned to incarnate life in Valinor - and may not have been required to dwell on Tol Eressëa. From this, it is likely that most Elves remained in Valinor, and only the relatively few Exiles who returned by ship need dwell on the Lonely Isle. Thus it is unlikely that Tol Eressëa was overcrowded ;) .

[Edit to eliminate unintended smiley].
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top


Return to The Books (Tolkien)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 0 guests