John Boorman's LOTR Screenplay

What do you think of Tolkien on the silver screen...? Whether Bakshi, Jackson, or whoever else, come on in and discuss your reflections, opinions, and memories...

Postby Lord_Baltimore » Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:49 am

Does anyone know anything about this screenplay? For instance, was it ever finished? Has anyone ever read it? Is it available for purchase?<BR><BR>It would be interesting to see what decisions Mr. Boorman made when adapting the book to film.//
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Postby Gungnir » Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:03 am

Hama used to know a good deal about Boorman's script.<BR><BR>Personally, I think that if purists were upset by PJ's version, the changes that Boorman would have had to make to fit LotR into one film would have induced brain seizures and myocardial infarctions.<BR><BR>His fall-back position after losing LotR - Excalibur - was, IMHO, mediocre <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>. Some of the visuals were good (but ludicrous when you consider Arthur lived in the dark ages, if at all), some of the performances were OK, some were breathtakingly bad - Nicol Williamson's "Merlin of the funny voice" is a case in point.<BR><BR>The bad side of Boorman's film not being made is that it was cancelled in favour of Bakshi's atrocity.<BR><BR>(And I've just realised why the Jackson-hating purists love to hang around here and criticise. Judging from the inordinate amount of pleasure I get from bashing Bakshi, it must be enjoyable for them.)
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Postby Berhael » Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:07 am

It would be interesting to know more about Boorman's script. I used to like <i>Excalibur</i> a lot, but my first viewing in English spoiled it for me. Merlin's voice - I ask you. This was one glaring case FOR dubbing. The rest was OK.
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Postby Lord_Baltimore » Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:18 am

Gungnir,<BR><BR>It's not so much that I'm concerned about WHAT JB might have changed, but WHY. I like to see, or try to see, what the thought processes behind creative decisions are. In that respect, I think it is a shame that his LOTR wasnt made.<BR><BR>As for Nicol Williamson's Pee-Wee Hermanesque voice... I didnt mind that so much as I minded that Godawful skullcap he wore! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>And, as a further aside, I dont hate PJ. I admire the man. He has the gonadal fortitude to put his money where his mouth is.<BR><BR>I just didnt unconditionally enjoy his version of FOTR. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Baltimore//
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Postby Gorel » Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:23 am

Gungnir - I think the visual design in Excalibur makes a Boorman LOTR potentially interesting; he was deliberately filming Arthurian myth, not reality. Except for the opening sequence, PJ has gone for a very historical feel for Middle-earth, which I appreciate. But I also wouldn't mind seeing a more Excalibur-esque version, especially when I imagine Lorien or the battle of the Pelennor Fields. I'm one of those weirdos who not only doesn't mind the tinkering of adapters, but wish there were a lot more creative adaptations of LOTR to compare to each other <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>But I don't know if a one-movie adaptation of LOTR would really be worth much to me. You can only prune so many branches before you've turned a tree into a stump.
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Postby noledge » Wed Jul 10, 2002 11:01 am

I've only ever seen one copy of this script for sale, and that was on Ebay. I bidded for it, but it went for about £30 I think, and I wasn't as into Tolkien then as I am now, otherwise, i'd have paid £300 for it <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I just checked Ebay, and there are no copies on at the moment...
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Postby Diamond of Long Cleeve » Wed Jul 10, 2002 12:51 pm

John Boorman's LOTR would have been a remarkable oddity, I'm sure. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Much like <i>Excalibur</i>. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I love <i>Excalibur</i>. It's an intelligent, powerful adaptation of the Morte d'Arthur and it has a genuinely mythical, magical feel. Of course it has flaws but I admire it very much and watch it avidly each time it's on TV. It's the most genuine Arthurian film, IMO, because it <b>respects its source material</b> -- it is miles better than the TV miniseries <i>Merlin</i> or (cough, splutter) <i>First Knight</i>. Which I confess to liking, even though I know it's the most awful, Hollywood-committee kind of slush. I mean, it's so silly it's ENJOYABLE. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> But Arthurian it ain't!
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Postby Jersey » Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:30 pm

"Excalibur" is a fascinating and odd "art project" of a movie and I would very much have liked to have seen what Boorman would have done with LOTR.<BR><BR>Anyhow, below is some information about his aborted attempt at a live-action Rings movie in the early 70's, in this excerpt from his autobiographical book "Money Into Light":<BR><BR> "After I made "Leo the Last" for United Artists, they asked me what I wanted to do next. I gave them a treatment I had written about Merlin David Picker, then in charge of production, did not respond to Merlin, but asked me instead to make "The Lord of the Rings," the film rights of which they had bought without having any idea what to do with it. Tolkien's work stirs a great brew of Norse, Celtic and Arthurian myth, the "Unterwelt" of my own mind. It was a heady, impossible proposition. If film-making for me is, as I have often said, exploration, setting oneself impossible problems and failing to solve them, then the Rings saga qualifies on all counts.<BR><BR> I had met Rospo Pallenberg in New York, where he was working as an architect. He was trying to write scripts. I recognized a fellow spirit. I brought him to my home in Ireland and we spent six months delving with dwarfs, wallowing with the Gollum, tramping Middle-Earth with Bilbo, but, most of all, Gandalf filled my life. He was, after all, Merlin in another guise.<BR><BR> Apart form the prodigious and daunting task of making a two-and-a-half-hour script form the three enormous volumes, many technical problems had to be solved as we went along, especially ways to render the magical effects. This was long before the Star Wars saga, a time when optical special-effects practice had wasted away through lack of usage all over the world. I had always had a fascination for the magic and trickery of the cinema from Georges Melies onwards. During this period I studied the techniques of the past and then experimented with modern technology to see how it could be applied.<BR><BR> Rospo pasted every page of "The Lord of the Rings" on to four wall in a room in my house in Ireland. We worked in that room, literally inside the book. He made charts of characters, chronologies and elaborate cross-references. We also devised a map of Middle-Earth and we had counters to represent the movement of characters across it. After six months of intensive work we had a script that we felt was fresh and cinematic, yet carried the spirit of Tolkien, a spirit we had come to admire and cherish during those months. It was a good and wondrous time. The valley in the Wicklow hills outside of Dublin where my house sits is as close to Middle-Earth as you can get in this depleted world.<BR><BR> During these six months, United Artists had suffered setbacks, a string of commercial failures including my own Leo the Last. It was 1970. The latest crop of British films had failed in the States. Hollywood's love affair with swinging London was over. American producers were packing their bags and looking for stories set in Denver and Philadelphia.<BR><BR> "The Lord of the Rings" was an expensive project dependent on innovative special effects. By the time we submitted it to United Artist, the executive who had espoused it had left the company. No one else there had actually read the book. They were baffled by a script that, for most of them, was their first contact with Middle-Earth. I was shattered when they rejected it. Marty Elfant was my agent at the time. We took it to Disney and other places, but no one would do it. Tolkien had sold the film rights, reluctantly, to set up a trust for his grandchildren. He wrote asking me how I intended to make the film. I explained that it would be live-action and he was much relieved. He had a dread that it would be an animation film and was comforted by my reply. His death spared him the eventual outcome: UA gave it to Ralph Bakshi, the animator. I could never bring myself to watch the result.<BR><BR> Despite my disappointment at the time, it was a rich and valuable experience. It certainly prepared the ground for the script that Rospo and I eventually wrote and filmed as "Excalibur." It was also a big influence on Zardoz. Many of the special-effects techniques I developed at that time were put to work on "The Heretic," "Zardoz" and "Excalibur," and some of the locations I intended for "The Lord of the Rings" found their way into "Excalibur."<BR>
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Postby Berhael » Wed Jul 10, 2002 2:09 pm

Thank you Jersey. A pleasure to see you around again, by the way. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Jersey » Wed Jul 10, 2002 2:30 pm

Cheers, Berhael.<BR><BR>It's nice to have a bit of time to peek in again. Like most everyone else, I'm aching for December to roll around... I really look forward to seeing TTT with an expectant opening night audience and then having those great loved/hated the Ents/Wargs/Saruman's demise/etc. discussions.
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Postby Democritus » Wed Jul 10, 2002 2:52 pm

Jersey<BR><BR><i>"I really look forward to seeing TTT with an expectant opening night audience and then having those great loved/hated the Ents/Wargs/<b>Saruman's demise</b>/etc. discussions."</i> <BR><BR>Aha, so you are admitting that Saruman meets his demise in TTT! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>You have to be careful around here you know, those Purists will jump on anything. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby MaxPower » Wed Jul 10, 2002 3:03 pm

I have here a recent issue of Outre Magazine that features an article about LOTR projects that never got off the ground. Besides touching on the Beatles' interest (John was the the driving force, apparently), and an attempt by Heinz Edelmann-art director on 'The Yellow Submarine'-to do an animated version, the article focuses most of its attention on the aborted Boorman project.<BR><BR>Here's a portion of the article, which was written by Ross Plesset. The gentleman quoted in it is Rospo Pallenberg, who co-wrote the script with John Boorman.<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>"The chore that was given to us by United Artists was one movie and, at the time, they produced long movies with an intermission. [The script] is 176 pages with an intermission on page 81, after the fellowship goes down the rapids, and you have a sense that they have now reached a great landscape as the river widens." The musical theme for "The Road Goes Ever On" accompanies this closing scene.<BR><BR>The script's first half, then, would have depicted most of The Fellowship Of The Ring. Following the intermission, "we accelerated as we continued the story, and dropped things out. We were propelled by what we liked, and invented as we went along."<BR><BR>The screenplay takes liberties with the book, which would have upset Tolkien purists. Perhaps the most provocative change occurs in Lothlorien where, before gazing into Galadriel's mirror, Frodo must become intimate with her (this does not cause friction with husband Celeborn because he is not featured.)<BR><BR>The adaption is also highly creative and inventive (ideas which Pallenberg still hopes to use in some other epic project). The history of Middle-earth is told in an interesting way, although the writer would do it differently today. "I devised kind of a Kabuki play in which the story of Sauron and the creation of the rings was explained to a gathering in Rivendell. [Reading the script] 'A play has begun. The stage is the table (a huge round table). The acting is stylized, emphatic. As in Kabuki Theater, the costumes are flamboyant, and symbolize beings and entities of Middle-earth.' In other words, with this device, we tried to simplify the backstory. But I think if I were to revisit the scene now, I would think of a faster way of doing it."<BR><BR>New material for the dwarf Gimli came from Pallenberg's fondness for the character. "I remember liking him a lot. I knew quite a bit about Wagner's operas and the German literature. I was sympathetic to him, and I tried to work him in wherever I could. I believe it was I who came up with idea where they bury Gimli in a hole, throw a cape on him, and beat him up to utter exhaustion to retrieve his unconscious ancestral memory." This ancient knowlege allows Gimli to know the word for entering Moria, and to find insights about the ancient dwarf kingdom.<BR><BR>Pallenberg contributed another original idea to the Moria sequence. "I had a rather fanciful idea involving these orcs that are slumbering or in some kind of narcotic state. The fellowship runs over them, and the footsteps start up their hearts. John liked that a lot."<BR><BR>He mentioned another change. "There's a duel between the magicians, Gandalf and Saruman. I was inspired by an African idea of how magicians duel with words, which I had read about. It was a way of one entrapping the other as a duel of words rather than special effects flashes, shaking staffs, and all that. I tried to keep away from that a lot, and Boorman did too. [Reads from script]:<BR>GANDALF: Saruman, I am the snake about to strike!<BR>SARUMAN: I am the staff that crushes the snake!<BR>GANDALF: I am the fire that burns the staff to ashes!<BR>SARUMAN: I am the cloudburst that quenches the fire!<BR>GANDALF: I am the well that traps the waters!<BR><BR>"John Boorman and I didn't give too much importance to the Christian component of Tolkien's work. It came across as a tad heavy-handed at times. It is a story of redemption, and that seemed to be enough."<BR><BR>{jumping ahead to elswhere in Plesset's article}<BR>Pallenberg continued, "Because it had to be one movie, and we couldn't waste time with too many complicated effects, I was an advocate of eliminating all flying creatures. I thought it would make it too rich, and it would depart too much from the ordinary. John Boorman agreed on that. At Minas Tirith, instead of a flying steed, the Nazgul Chief rides a horse that 'seems to have no skin. Its live, raw, bleeding flesh is exposed.' I still have this feeling that the dazzle can take away from the fundamental drama. We always tried to do things on the cheap, simply. When you saw a castle in the distance, it could have been made out of anything, even gleaming, high-voltage transmission towers. You saw those in the distance between the trees and then, suddenly, you were inside it. John Boorman is tremendously clever at that."<BR><BR>{jumping further ahead to the article's concluding paragraph}<BR>The script ends with Gandalf, Frodo, Bilbo, Galadriel, Arwen, and Elrond leaving Middle-earth on a sailing ship. A rainbow arcs over the vessel. Legolas, who is watching from shore with Gimli, says, "Look! Only seven colors. Indeed, the world is failing." "I think that's the ideology of the picture," said Pallenberg. "That is from me, not Tolkien. From a physics standpoint, it's incorrect to say that there could be more than seven colors, but what it's saying is, 'we live in a diminished world.'"<BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>The entire article can be found in issue #26 of OUTRE: The World Of Ultramedia (with Ian Mckellan as Gandalf on the cover).<BR> I wonder what those who don't like Frodo solving the riddle instead of Merry think of Place Gimli In A Hole And Paddle Him Until He Starts Talking. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> The image is particularly amusing if you put JRD's rather blustery Gimli in it. <BR><BR>I thought the verbal exchange between Gandalf and Saruman was pretty intriguing, although there's the risk it would seem ridiculous in execution. Then again, old men using force powers to throw each against the walls, not to mention the break-dancing, strikes a lot of people as ridiculous. Given the option of either approach, I think I would have said 'let's have our accomplished actors here put those great voices to work.'<BR><BR>The bit at the end with the rainbow sounded pretty good to me.<BR> But I don't like this business of retaining the character of Arwen, only to put her on the damn ship at the end. Curious, to say the least.
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Postby Democritus » Wed Jul 10, 2002 3:20 pm

Jeepers<BR><BR>The Purists really would have burnt him the stake, and they would not have been the only one. I would have at least donated some petrol.<BR><BR>That bit about Frodo getting down and dirty with Galadrial - Yowsers <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I thought the Kabuki idea was interesting though <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Diamond of Long Cleeve » Wed Jul 10, 2002 3:50 pm

Good Heavens! The Purists would have FRIED Boorman! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Well, this is an eye-opener and no mistake. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><BR><BR><i>I believe it was I who came up with idea where they bury Gimli in a hole, throw a cape on him, and beat him up to utter exhaustion to retrieve his unconscious ancestral memory." This ancient knowlege allows Gimli to know the word for entering Moria, and to find insights about the ancient dwarf kingdom.</i><BR><BR>Excuse me???????????? Who beats Gimli up? The Fellowship? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR><i>Pallenberg contributed another original idea to the Moria sequence. "I had a rather fanciful idea involving these orcs that are slumbering or in some kind of narcotic state. The fellowship runs over them, and the footsteps start up their hearts. John liked that a lot."</i><BR><BR>Jeez Louise ... but this is incredible. Makes PJ's Uruk-hai look pretty tame, eh, purists? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR><i>GANDALF: Saruman, I am the snake about to strike!<BR>SARUMAN: I am the staff that crushes the snake!<BR>GANDALF: I am the fire that burns the staff to ashes!<BR>SARUMAN: I am the cloudburst that quenches the fire!<BR>GANDALF: I am the well that traps the waters!</i><BR><BR>I am speechless. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> I mean, it's great stuff ... but it sure as heck isn't Tolkien!<BR><BR><i>"John Boorman and I didn't give too much importance to the Christian component of Tolkien's work. It came across as a tad heavy-handed at times. </i><BR><BR>That really does surprise me. I find the Christian aspect of LOTR so subtle as to be virtually invisible. It's certainly not preachy. And I'm a practising Christian myself, and know how important JRRT's Catholic faith was to him. The redemptive aspect is certainly strong though.<BR><BR><i>Pallenberg continued, "Because it had to be one movie, and we couldn't waste time with too many complicated effects, I was an advocate of eliminating all flying creatures. I thought it would make it too rich, and it would depart too much from the ordinary. John Boorman agreed on that. At Minas Tirith, instead of a flying steed, the Nazgul Chief rides a horse that 'seems to have no skin. Its live, raw, bleeding flesh is exposed.' I still have this feeling that the dazzle can take away from the fundamental drama. We always tried to do things on the cheap, simply. When you saw a castle in the distance, it could have been made out of anything, even gleaming, high-voltage transmission towers. You saw those in the distance between the trees and then, suddenly, you were inside it. John Boorman is tremendously clever at that."</i><BR><BR>There is no denying that Boorman is a very imaginative film-maker. I've always liked that about his work. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR><i>The script ends with Gandalf, Frodo, Bilbo, Galadriel, Arwen, and Elrond leaving Middle-earth on a sailing ship. A rainbow arcs over the vessel. Legolas, who is watching from shore with Gimli, says, "Look! Only seven colors. Indeed, the world is failing." </i><BR><BR>Oh, but that's rather beautiful. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> It most certainly isn't book canon, to put it mildly, but it does capture the beautiful haunting sadness of the Grey Havens. It's also very Arthurian ... and Tolkien said that Frodo sailing to Tol Eressea was 'Arthurian' (except that King Arthur could come back, and Frodo can't).<BR><BR>I wonder then if Boorman eliminated Merry and Pip from his script? <BR>And the romance between Aragorn and Arwen?<BR><BR>Well, all I can say is: <b>Thank you, PJ! Thank you, thank you, thank you!</b> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> And I mean it, with all my heart. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>-edit-<BR><BR>I can't help thinking. Although Boorman took the most outrageous liberties with the story, there is something very imaginative and powerful about his ideas. Do you all think this sounds like a great film which never happened? I do. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>But I'm grateful for the film which we did get.
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Postby MerriadocBrandybuck » Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:27 pm

---<i>That really does surprise me. I find the Christian aspect of LOTR so subtle as to be virtually invisible. It's certainly not preachy. And I'm a practising Christian myself, and know how important JRRT's Catholic faith was to him. The redemptive aspect is certainly strong though.</i>---<BR><BR>Surprises me too, as a non-Christian, I did not even have the slightest idea of any Christian undertones while I was reading the book. It was not until I visited this website that I found this out.<BR><BR>Cheers, <BR><BR>Merry<BR>
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Postby Jersey » Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:29 pm

Maxxie-P.,<BR><BR>Thanks for the Outre excerpts. Interesting details. I remember picking that issue up, but just flipping through the article, without taking note that it had such detailed tidbits about the Boorman project. Curses! It's interesting stuff.<BR><BR>Writer Pallenberg's description of an idea derived from an African sorcerers' "word duel" is really promising... with some good acting, something like this would be an interesting alternative to depicting "magic."<BR><BR>There is a certain wacky boldness to ideas like the unskinned Nazgul mount, though Frodo's "congress" with Galadriel seems very much a symptom of the period in which the film would have been made.<BR><BR>Beating racial memories out of Gimli to come up with the prerequisite "mellon," in order to enter Moria, seems like a rather unnecessarily involved (i.e. it added needless runing time) method of solving the riddle. Of course, it always struck me as an odd idiosincracy on Tolkien's part to have a dwarf (who happend to be a cousin of the chap who should have been running the place) not know something like the key to the darned dwarf realm of Moria!<BR><BR>As an aside, I recall reading some comments online (where the above quoted excerpt from Boorman's book came from) that the grotesque, bestial "wild men" that are featured during the final battle in "Excalibur," were referred to as Orcs by the film crew during shooting. Perhaps then a good indication of how Boorman would have intended to depict the goblins in his LOTR.
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Postby noledge » Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:30 pm

Does anyone else think that the Gandalf-Saruman dialog should have been reversed? I mean, I would have thought that it would be Saruman who's start the 'duel' as in PJ's version. Also, Saruman should have the last line as well, as he obviously wins the 'duel'...
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Postby llyr_ap_cenydd » Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:31 pm

Ahhhahahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaahahahahah!!! LOL. Is that seriouslt a quote from the scriptwriter? <BR><BR>Gimli being wrapped in a blanket and beaten black and blue to get the word 'Mellon'? LOL. And purists were complaining that its Frodo and not Merry that triggers the Gandalf recolection! oh my! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0><BR><BR>And Frodo 'getting intimate' with Galadriel? what is that about? oh my!!! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR>By the way, this IS the rediculously long sandwitches guy, isn't it? It MUST be!!!<BR><BR><BR>Oh dear god I'm glad it never happened. Because there would be no way on this Earth I would have picked up LOTR if I saw THAT adaptation!! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif"border=0>
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Postby Jersey » Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:40 pm

noledge,<BR><BR>Not knowing whether we're really just getting a sample of the word duel, with the intro and the conclusion lopped off (as I'm sort of assuming here,) the first and last word in the full script may well match your expectation.<BR>
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Postby llyr_ap_cenydd » Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:52 pm

The war of words between Gandalf and Saruman reminds me of The Secret of Monkey Island (computer game)'s legendary Insult Swordfighting(TM).<BR><BR><BR><i>You fight like a dairy farmer!</i><BR><i>How appropriate. You fight like a cow!</i><BR><BR>Classic. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Jersey » Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:58 pm

I fight like a cow too!<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby The_Mormegil » Wed Jul 10, 2002 5:11 pm

<i>By the way, this IS the rediculously long sandwitches guy, isn't it? It MUST be!!!</i><BR><BR>Nope, that was Morton Grady Zimmerman's script.<BR><BR>I thought that article was a joke when it went on about the Dwarf in a hole and the Galadriel/Frodo scene is straight out of Bored of the Rings if I remember correctly.<BR><BR>LOL
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Postby Ciaran_Gabriel » Wed Jul 10, 2002 6:44 pm

Hehe! I'd love to see that script just for the heck of it. What about the Zimmerman script? Anyone know much about that one(other than the rediculously long sandwiches)?
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Postby The_Mormegil » Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:00 pm

<i>Anyone know much about that one(other than the rediculously long sandwiches)? </i><BR><BR>Just what is mentioned in Letter 210.<BR><BR>Radagast the Eagle<BR>The Forest of Rivendell<BR>The Fellowship travelling from Rivendell to Moria by Eagle.<BR>Feathered Orcs<BR>The sneering Balrog<BR>The Castle of Lorien<BR>Saruman comitting Suicide (By throwing himself onto a spike? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>)<BR><BR>It does have Bombodil though and the Weathertop scene sounds very similar to PJs <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Ciaran_Gabriel » Wed Jul 10, 2002 10:55 pm

<i>Radagast the Eagle</i><BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR><i>The sneering Balrog</i><BR><BR>Sneering? Like the Elvis sneer? <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif"border=0><BR><BR>This one sounds much sillier <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby MaxPower » Wed Jul 10, 2002 10:56 pm

Jersey,<BR><BR>Yeah, it's a fascinating article, although to be honest, I spent more time ogling the photos in the Lynn Carey piece (Mama Lion, indeed! Yow!). No doubt about it, it's a great magazine! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> Heck, it's great fun just to read through the descriptions of all those oddball videos one can order.<BR><BR> An example:<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>A New Look At The H-Bomb: (1954) The Federal Civil Defense Administrator, a dour gent, details the effects of radioactive fallout. "Now, I'm not here to frighten you," he states, "Americans don't scare easy, anyway." Later he notes, "if you're caught near Ground Zero, don't worry about the radiation. The bomb itself will kill you..." <BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR>Diamond,<BR><BR>Merry and Pippin were actually in the script. In the article, Pallenberg mentions 'the four hobbits' when he talks about casting. BTW, he also states that the Beatles were under early consideration to play the four (this is separate from the Beatles' own bid to do the movie earlier). <BR><BR>Anyway, here's one other interesting tidbit from Plesset's article:<BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Nevertheless, the script had its share of technical demands. It begins in J.R.R. Tolkien's book-filled office, with the author disturbed by the intruding camera. Then, as the titles appear, the audience is given a tour of Middle-earth via a combination of model and location photography. "Boorman wanted to build a huge model of Middle-earth-as big as a film studio, curvature of the Earth and all," exclaimed Pallenberg.<BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>I'm guessing Tolkien wouldn't have liked this bit about himself featuring in the story. He would have steadfastly refused to play himself (especially after getting wind of the script's particulars), and he would have keenly disliked the performance of the actor chosen to play the role. The part about him being "disturbed by the intruding camera" sounds very true to the good professor, though, as he was often bothered by eager-beaver fans 'hanging on the bell all day!'
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Postby Hama » Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:33 am

Thank you for that MaxPower, I am literally breathless after reading that. Frodo gets his end away with Galadriel, the Rivendell Kabuki company performs the forging of the ring (do they mention Ninja Throwing Lembas at all?), Crack house Orcs swooning in Moria and African shaman Wizards. (Morgan Freeman for Gandalf, anyone?) The crowning glory has to be that they can’t get into Moria so they beat up the dwarf? ROTFLMAO! I can see it now!<BR><BR>At the top, as high as Gandalf could reach, was an arch of interlacing letters in an Elvish character. Below, though the threads were in places blurred or broken, the outline could be seen of an anvil and a hammer surmounted by a crown with seven stars. Beneath these again were two trees, each bearing crescent moons. More clearly than all else there shone forth in the middle of the door a single star with many rays.<BR>“There are the emblems of Durin!“ cried Gimli.<BR>“And there is the Tree of the High Elves!“ said Legolas.<BR>“And the Star of the House of Fëanor,“ said Gandalf. “They are wrought of ithildin that mirrors only starlight and moonlight, and sleeps until it is touched by one who speaks words now long forgotten in Middle-earth. It is long since I heard them, and I thought deeply before I could recall them to my mind.”<BR>“What does the writing say?“ asked Frodo, who was trying to decipher the inscription on the arch. “I thought I knew the elf-letters but I cannot read these.<BR>“The words are in the elven-tongue of the West of Middle-earth in the Elder Days,“ answered Gandalf. “But they do not say anything of importance to us. They say only: The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Speak, friend, and enter. And underneath small and faint is written: I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs.”<BR>“What does it mean by speak, friend, and enter?“ asked Merry.<BR>“That is plain enough,“ said Gimli. “If you are a friend, speak the password, and the doors will open, and you can enter.”<BR>“Yes,“ said Gandalf, “These doors are probably governed by words. Some dwarf-gates will open only at special times, or for particular persons; and some have locks and keys that are still needed when all necessary times and words are known. These doors have no key. In the days of Durin they were not secret. They usually stood open and doorwards sat here. But if they were shut, any who knew the opening word could speak it and pass in. At least so it is recorded, is it not, Gimli?“ “It is,“ said the dwarf. “But what the word was is not remembered. Narvi and his craft and all his kindred have vanished from the earth.”<BR>“But do not you know the word, Gandalf? “asked Boromir in surprise.<BR>“No!“ said the wizard. “I was hoping Gimli did.”<BR>They all turned to the Dwarf.<BR>“Don’t look at me!” said Gimli. “This all happened well before my time!”<BR>Legolas harrumphed!<BR>“And what is that supposed to mean?” asked Gimli.<BR>“Rather, I think, your wits have been addled by too much Dwarven Ale! It isn’t that you don’t know the password, it’s more likely you can’t remember!” said the Elf.<BR>Gimli scowled.<BR>“And I suppose a drop of wine never ever passed your lips, either.” He said.<BR>“Typical of a dwarf, always accusing others of your own foibles. That was how the wars between our two peoples got started in the first place.”<BR>“It was not the fault of the Dwarves that the wars began,” said Gimli.<BR>”I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves,” said Legolas.<BR>”I have heard both,” said Gandalf; “and I will not give judgement now. But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends, and to help me. I need you both. The doors are shut and the sooner we have the password the better. You must try to remember, Gimli!”<BR>Boromir strode forward.<BR>“Stuff all that! I say we give the dwarf a good kicking. Then he’ll remember all right!” <BR>Legolas nodded his head enthusiastically, but it was only when Aragorn started rolling up his sleeves that the balance was tipped. Gandalf sighed and shook his head sadly, before pulling out a large black jack from within his robe. Gimli backed away. Merry and Pippin went over to one of the Holly trees and pulled off a couple of thick branches from it. Gimli backed further away. Sam went to his pack to get Mr Frodo his knuckle-dusters, before pulling out a large piece of 2 by 4 for himself. Gimli was now trying to back his way through the cliff, but not getting very far. Boromir, grinning all the while, put on his metal studded leather gauntlets, while Legolas took a large rice flail from his quiver, and whirled it about his head. Gimli tried to climb the cliff to get away, but it was too late. Finally, Aragorn looked at the various items hanging from his belt, and finally plumped for his trusty day stick emblazoned with the emblem of the white tree. He looked at the others and they all nodded in return.<BR>“Right then!” said Boromir, advancing. “Come here my beauty!”<BR><BR>Monty Python and the Ring of Power anyone?<BR><BR>Hama, awestruck!<BR><BR>
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Postby Berhael » Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:38 am

pffffffffffftHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!11<BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Ah, let me wipe the tears of mirth from my cheeks... beating the Dwarf??? <i>Pur-lease!!!</i> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>The wizard word-duel, though, would have been a better idea that the Breakdancing Old Folks Compo, IMHO.
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Postby GandalfGrayhame » Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:49 am

I'm still laughing so much I'm crying!<BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>What silly, silly, outdated ideas... And I guess it demonstrates how much fidelity PJ's version actually HAS, compared to some impulses to change from other, very creative artists... I would NEVER have condoned Boorman's choices. Never.
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Postby Gungnir » Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:57 am

I did say above - <i>Personally, I think that if purists were upset by PJ's version, the changes that Boorman would have had to make to fit LotR into one film would have induced brain seizures and myocardial infarctions.-</i><BR><BR>And the changes that Boorman <i>didn't</i> have to make but included anyway (Frodo and Galadriel getting jiggy, Gimli's recovered memory syndrome etc.) are completely incomprehensible and makes PJ look like the most devoted of purists in comparison.<BR><BR>If Boorman had been making that today, I think my comments on here would have made GM sound like Iavas.<BR><BR>The only part that I liked the sound of was <b>"Boorman wanted to build a huge model of Middle-earth-as big as a film studio, curvature of the Earth and all,"</b><BR><BR>I'd pay to see that.
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