Two Towers Questions/Answers - #9 (SPOILERS)

What do you think of Tolkien on the silver screen...? Whether Bakshi, Jackson, Amazon, BBC radio play, or whoever else, come on in and discuss your reflections, opinions, and memories...

Postby Nilson_The_White » Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:03 pm

Let's just get right to the spoilers, shall we?<BR><BR><b>1. Is Glamdring mentioned in any description or any dialogue?</b><BR><BR>No, I'm afraid not. Gandalf does have a sword and it is described as the same one he wielded in Fellowship (which was Glamdring, if you managed to read its description on the hilt). So we can assume he kept the fabled blade after he fell into the chasm and had to fight the Balrog up to the summit.<BR><BR><BR><b>2. Where do we leave off Treebeard and the ents?</b><BR><BR>Not sure I know what you mean by this question. Do you mean before the<BR>battle? If so then Treebeard w/ Merry and Pippin are looking out at Orthanc from the cover of the forest, and Treebeard says:<BR><BR><u>TREEBEARD:</u><BR><i>Night lies over Isengard. We attack<BR>at dawn.</i><BR><BR><BR><b>3. Is Gimli's defense of the Lady Galadriel present?<BR></b><BR>One of my favorite scenes in the script. Eomer is portrayed a bit<BR>belligerently here, not really wanting to believe that what the Three<BR>Hunters says is true.<BR><BR><u>GIMLI:</u><BR><i>Then, Eomer, let Gimli the Dwarf warn you against<BR>foolish words. You speak evil of that whish is fair<BR>beyond your thoughts, and only little wit can excuse<BR>you!</i><BR><BR><u>EOMER:</u><BR><i>I would cut off your head, beard and all, Master<BR>Dwarf, if it stood but a little higher from the ground.</i><BR><BR><u>LEGOLAS:</u><BR><i>He stands not alone. You would die before your<BR>stroke fell.</i><BR><BR>Eventually Eomer is convinced of Aragorn's good intentions when the Ranger reveals himself:<BR><BR><u>ARAGORN:</u><BR><i>(powerfully)<BR>I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar,<BR>Heir of Isildur, and son of Gondor. Will you aid me or<BR>thwart me? Choose swiftly.</i><BR><BR><BR><b>4. What capacity is Hama used to?</b><BR><BR>Pretty much the same capacity he is used in the books. Almost everywhere the King goes, Hama is there in some capacity -- much like a personal guard. His death at Helms Deep will no doubt prove to be a tragic one.<BR><BR><BR><b>5.</b> <a target=new href="http://www.quintessentialwebsites.com/lordoftherings/movieshots/celeborn_elrond.jpg">http://www.quintessentialwebsites.com/lordoftherings/movieshots/celeborn_elrond.jpg</a><BR><BR><b>Most see this picture as Elrond talking with Celeborn. Since there does not seem to be any other characters around, what are they talking about alone? If we are wrong about this scene, please correct us. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0></b><BR><BR>If I read the clues right, then this is probably the scene where Elrond, Arwen and Co. first arrive in Lothlorien. Celebron is the only one to meet them, and Arwen is itching to see Galadriel and goes off in search of her (she'll find her at the mirror). Celeborn and Elrond have a brief conversation after Arwen departs:<BR><BR><u>CELEBORN:</u><BR><i>It is long since you visited the Golden Woods,<BR>Lord Elrond. Why do you come now, at the end<BR>of our time?</i><BR><BR><u>ELROND:</u><BR><i>Lothlorien must be protected, for it is here that <BR>the heart of the elves of Middle-earth rest... and <BR>the hearts of many others, as well.</i><BR><BR><u>CELEBORN:</u><BR><i>And what of Rivendell?</u><BR><BR><u>ELROND:</u><BR><i>Rivendell is a dream, Celeborn. It always was.<BR>Lothlorien will not fade, and it shall not fall. Not<BR>until the last of our kind have left this place.</i>
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Postby The Watcher » Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:24 pm

Nilson_<BR><BR>Thanks for the repeated TTT reputed spoilers, but, PJ's portrayal of all things elvish leave me with much to be desired. If we are so off track with elvish intentions and motivations in TTT, I dread what we may find in ROTK.<BR><BR>Lothlorien IS the land that is fading............Whether Galadriel is there or not, it was once Laurelindorien. Rivendell is not a dream. but rather a haven of the remaining firstborn under Elrond. This is all just making me see way too many changes when it come to the ROTK. Sorry, great tidbits, but not terribly reassuring, nor making me to eager to see TTT or ROTK. I don't want to see PJ's constant twistings of the tales to suit his own need for glamour elves.
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Postby TheRock » Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:24 pm

thanks Nilson. Your posts are great, I love the inclusion of the dialogue. Love the Gimli, Aragorn, Legolas, Eomer Scene.
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Postby ElfStar » Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:34 pm

Wow. The scene with Eomer and the three hunters sounds very promising, and that dialogue is verbotim with the book, if i remember correctly. One of my favorite parts of TTT, the book, and looks like it will be in the film as well.
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:35 pm

Excellent stuff!! Aragorns line I am particularly thrilled about. And I am becoming more and more happy that the elves are congregating in Lorien. From the Elrond/Celeborn dialogue, I really can't wait, and I'm glad that Celeborn will get a chance to redeem himself. Watcher, it seems your initial reaction to any spoiler is "Not more changes" rather than "Is this good from a film-making perspective."
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Postby SonODrogo » Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:36 pm

1. Whatever<BR><BR>2. Not bad.<BR><BR>3. Droooooooooooool. This is pretty darn close to the book. <BR><BR>4. This is pretty much what I was hoping for.<BR><BR>5. Now this one is going to take more than a sentence or two. I'm still a bit upset that Elrond is in Lothlorien, but today's spoilers give me more hope. At the same time, they confuse me. One of the prior posts had Elrond saying that Rivendell wasn't safe, but I don't get that feeling from this piece of dialogue. It seems that Elrond came because he fears for the safety of his kin. This is something that I find much more tolerable. In fact, it actually makes sense and doesn't seem like an obvious plot device to get the minor players at the same place. Another thing that is promising is the wording itself. Elrond seems much more like the noble elf I'm familiar with.<BR><BR>Edit: Nilson, why is there no applicable LOTR quote in the beginning.
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Postby Democritus » Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:14 pm

Pleased with this bunch of spoilers. Unlike The Watcher I don't have any concerns whatsoever with PJ's portrayel of the elves. My concerns lay in other areas.<BR><BR>Good to see that the Gimli's defence of Gladys is still in the movie but unfortunately it will only make sense to those of us that see the SE DVD. Those that only saw the theatrical version is going to be a little confused that Gimli is so sweet on her all of a sudden.
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Postby Radagast-the-Ruddy » Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:15 pm

I was hoping that Celeborn would have faded by this time!<BR><BR>A thousand thanks for this info. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby finarfin » Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:18 pm

Not that I have a problem with it, because to the uninitiated this makes perfect sense, but I'm beginning to believe all of the Elves will either be gone or leave ME at the end of ROTK save Arwen.<BR><BR>The passage of Eomer & the Three Hunters gave me chills.<BR><BR>Thanks Silly Steward of Imladris. I guess I should check out the scoundrels board more often.
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Postby Mr.bunny » Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:34 pm

<i>I'm beginning to believe all of the Elves will either be gone or leave ME at the end of ROTK save Arwen.</i><BR><BR>And Legolas.<BR><BR>*plop*
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Postby Nilson_The_White » Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:39 pm

<i>Nilson, why is there no applicable LOTR quote in the beginning.</i><BR><BR>Because I'm lazy. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> Check back tomorrow.<BR><BR><BR>I have to agree with the Watcher. Elrond's lines about Lorien vs. Rivendell dissapoint me. Rivendell stood longer than Lorien, with the former King of Lorien, Celeborn, departing to Imladris and becoming Lord of Rivendell in Elrond's absence. In LOTR, Lothlorien fading was far mor apparent than Rivendell fading. I can understand why PJ might want to have the elves make their "last stand" in one location, but it doesn't sit too well with me. This is far worse than a exact detail being changed (Arwen instead of Glorfindel). This changes the whole fading concept that PJ is trying so hard to make clear to the audience. In my opinion (which may very well change after seeing the finished product), he's messing up.
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Postby Nilson_The_White » Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:43 pm

<i>And Legolas.</i><BR><BR>Good point, Mr. B <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>*scoop*
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Postby finarfin » Tue Aug 06, 2002 10:27 pm

Mr.B & WhiteGuy, at first glance I said DOH! you're right, but upon further thinking why does Legolas have to stay in ME? Ok, maybe only the high Elves leave ME at the end of ROTK.
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Postby The Watcher » Tue Aug 06, 2002 10:36 pm

fin<BR><BR>and what we will will only see in ROTK......<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>(After, of course, that the remaining Imladris/Lothlorien/departing elves somehow manage to find their way onto the final battlefields of Pelanoor and the Black Gates.....nothing much after helping out Rohan so effectivelt, after all........)
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Postby Mr.bunny » Tue Aug 06, 2002 10:40 pm

Because Fin, he's gotta first hang out with Gimli for a little while, right?<BR><BR>Right?<BR><BR>*plop*
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Postby finarfin » Tue Aug 06, 2002 10:48 pm

If he did that I think the audience might get the wrong idea.
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Postby Radagast-the-Ruddy » Tue Aug 06, 2002 10:52 pm

r you guyz shur orli is a elf he dint look anythin lik halter
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:34 pm

<i>This changes the whole fading concept</i><BR><BR>If it means that the elves try a little harder to preserve Middle-earth before they depart then I think that it is a good change to the fading concept. The fading in the book I felt was just a backdrop. But PJ is bringing it into the fabric of the story. By showing us that the elves still care enough to try and aid the fight, I think that will actually add more weight to the fact that they will subsequently depart.<BR><BR>As for Rivendell being a dream, I think that gives a wonderful sense of how Middle-earth changes over the ages. I think it is highlighting that there is nothing fundamentally special about Rivendells geographical location, whereas Lorien does have a special power inherent in the forest itself which will always be. Also, will the dream concept work in the context of the movie even if it does seem to contradict the book? I think it will, because by this point in the quest, Rivendell will seem to us like some distant dream, a happy memory of a place beyond the war... certain characters may well actually believe they dreamed it all...
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Postby PipeSmoke » Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:35 pm

Silly Elrond... all he needs to do to save Lothlorien is...<BR><BR>BUILD MORE MOONWELLS!
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Postby SonODrogo » Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:37 pm

Iavas, I see the release of the DVD has boosted the power of the lenses. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>PipeSmoke, been playing some Warcraft III, have you?
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Postby The Watcher » Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:55 pm

rose coloured glasses....<BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0><BR><BR>May you be happy with the subsequent films <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I'm definitely holding my breath as to how far PJ has ventured off the story path this time, and where it will lead him....<BR>
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Wed Aug 07, 2002 12:32 am

Well unless my arguements are addressed and refuted, it would seem that the old rosy lenses have made some pretty good points <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0>
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Postby Democritus » Wed Aug 07, 2002 12:40 am

TheWatcher<BR><BR>Iavas has some good points actually, perhaps you would like to address them with counter-arguments some time. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby SonODrogo » Wed Aug 07, 2002 12:45 am

<i>Also, will the dream concept work in the context of the movie even if it does seem to contradict the book? I think it will, because by this point in the quest, Rivendell will seem to us like some distant dream, a happy memory of a place beyond the war... certain characters may well actually believe they dreamed it all... </i><BR><BR>What is this dream concept?! Elrond talks about Rivendell being a dream, but what the heck is that supposed to mean?! I think it is just fluff that is supposed to sound good, yet it seems the power the of lenses has allowed you justify it as a good change.
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Postby Radagast-the-Ruddy » Wed Aug 07, 2002 1:10 am

Truth is, Elrond had to get away from Bilbo. All that poetry was driving him mad and the old boy just would not shut up.
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Postby The Watcher » Wed Aug 07, 2002 1:15 am

Ask, and you shall receive <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR><i>If it means that the elves try a little harder to preserve Middle-earth before they depart then I think that it is a good change to the fading concept. The fading in the book I felt was just a backdrop. But PJ is bringing it into the fabric of the story. By showing us that the elves still care enough to try and aid the fight, I think that will actually add more weight to the fact that they will subsequently depart.<BR><BR>As for Rivendell being a dream, I think that gives a wonderful sense of how Middle-earth changes over the ages. I think it is highlighting that there is nothing fundamentally special about Rivendells geographical location, whereas Lorien does have a special power inherent in the forest itself which will always be. Also, will the dream concept work in the context of the movie even if it does seem to contradict the book? I think it will, because by this point in the quest, Rivendell will seem to us like some distant dream, a happy memory of a place beyond the war... certain characters may well actually believe they dreamed it all... </i><BR><BR>And, where does any of this come out of any, I repeat any Tolkien text?<BR><BR>And, before I get flamed as some sort of uberpurist, I fail to see how having warrior elves fighting in an obscure battle with the horse lords gives any validity to the theme of elven fading. Now, if they were to make an appearnace at Minas Tirith, that would be another story. And, I'm sure that it will become one.<BR><BR>Why do you perceive Rivendell as unsustainable? Because PJ sees it this way? Lothlorien has been fading for generations, and has even been renamed to reflect this observation. Except for Galadriel, who chooses to remain one of her own kind, there is noone of powere to be found in the place. And, even still, the powere in Lorien is not in confrontation, but in resistance, the deference of its own demise.<BR><BR>How on earth do you see that PJ's vision of glamorous battle elves is imn any way consistant with the theme of elvish fading? Haldir dies, and, now we all get it?<BR><BR>Sorry, Iavas. You are enthralled with the films I envy you and give you great credit. It is just not what I get out of the books at all. In fact, HD running as long as it is shows that PJ only wants to glam up TTT and will definitley be rushing through all of the other more important scenes in the books, such as the defeat of Orthanc, the taming of Smeagol, the Ents (guaranteed to be pretty much glossed over for the most part), the return of Gandalf....<BR><BR>Elves do not play a great role in the books. PJ is enamoured with elves. He will find any excuse to introduce them back into the films because they are glam, kewl, kockem up a notch, etc. They do not add overall to the final story. They add interest to an otherwise basically fairly typical rescue and adventure tale section in the middle of the story. Why hasn't PJ chosen to play up Frodo is this part fo the film? The transformation of Gollum into Smeagol, the Dead Marshes, Ithilian, etc., provide much to layer the film with. No elves at all. Except already dead ones. I suppose next that we should expect red things everytime Frodo sees a dead personage in the marshes......................<BR><BR>Back to the subject at hand. Now, after Elrond and co send the small batallion to HD, where they subsequently get slaughtered, what do Elrond and co do in film three? Sit back on their haunches and wait it out? Right.............<BR><BR>See why I have a problem with this???
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:09 am

<i>What is this dream concept?! Elrond talks about Rivendell being a dream, but what the heck is that supposed to mean?! I think it is just fluff that is supposed to sound good, yet it seems the power the of lenses has allowed you justify it as a good change.</i><BR><BR>I don't see how Elrond saying that Rivendell is a dream is a change. Rivendell isn't suddenly going to vanish into the mist because it was never really there. I'm sure that the dream symbolism will become clear in time, at the moment we are reacting on very limited info. I do like the idea of representing a place with a metaphor and finding out what symbolism PJ is trying to portray by doing so.<BR><BR><BR><i>And, where does any of this come out of any, I repeat any Tolkien text?</i><BR><BR>It doesn't, just as Arwen at the Fords didn't. I thought we had learnt by now that adherence to the exact details is not as important as the resulting feelings and themes inspired in us?<BR><BR><BR><i>I fail to see how having warrior elves fighting in an obscure battle with the horse lords gives any validity to the theme of elven fading.</i><BR><BR>But you have also failed to see Jacksons complete film before making this judgement. I already see <i>hints</i> of how going to Helms Deep will be used as part of elven fading. Until we see how PJ has handled it, we can't make a judgement, but judging by his record with FOTR I think it is better to give him the benefit of the doubt.<BR><BR><BR><i>Why do you perceive Rivendell as unsustainable? Because PJ sees it this way? Lothlorien has been fading for generations, and has even been renamed to reflect this observation. Except for Galadriel, who chooses to remain one of her own kind, there is noone of power to be found in the place. And, even still, the power in Lorien is not in confrontation, but in resistance, the deference of its own demise.</i><BR><BR>If a change has been made here then I will embrace it, because Lorien is located right next to the central stage for the War of the Ring, and to utilize it as the most important Elven refuge is a wise move IMO. In the film, Rivendell seems to be fading faster, and be more empty, than Lorien. It also "cannot defend both Mordor and Isengard", or conceal the Ring, whereas Loriens borders are "well protected".<BR><BR><BR><i>How on earth do you see that PJ's vision of glamorous battle elves is imn any way consistant with the theme of elvish fading? Haldir dies, and, now we all get it?</i><BR><BR>The idea that the elves would still be willing to sacrifice their lives for the future prosperity of Middle-earth, despite their own time drawing to a close, is a powerful one IMO.<BR><BR><BR><i>HD running as long as it is shows that PJ only wants to glam up TTT and will definitley be rushing through all of the other more important scenes in the books, such as the defeat of Orthanc, the taming of Smeagol, the Ents (guaranteed to be pretty much glossed over for the most part), the return of Gandalf....</i><BR><BR>"Only wants to glam up TTT"?? That is why he shot extra scenes of Frodo, Sam and Gollum to make their relationship more psychological?That is why we will now see a flashback to Gandalfs fight with the Balrog even tho PJ initially ruled this out? I think you are making a very wild assumption here based on the RUMOUR that HD runs 45 minutes, and also not taking into account that from what we know PJ is pushing for a longer cut of the film than originally intended. Helms Deep isn't just going to be a battle.. we will clearly see character drama too, involving many important characters. HD will serve so many more purposes than it does in the book.<BR><BR><BR><i>Elves do not play a great role in the books.</i><BR><BR>Which is a problem I'm glad that PJ addressed. He is turning LOTR into a story that weaves all the races together, instead of leaving the elves on the sidelines. Seeing as LOTR is the only real opportunity we'll probably ever get to see elves depicted properly on film, I'm damn thrilled that PJ is making them an integral part of the story. Tolkien had the Sil to tell us about elves. PJ only has these films.<BR><BR><BR><i>PJ is enamoured with elves. He will find any excuse to introduce them back into the films because they are glam, kewl, kockem up a notch, etc.</i><BR><BR>There's that word 'glam' again, odd I must say. You are on the right track though. PJ does like elves, and he wants them in his story. But not because they're glam and cool, but because they are fascinating, beautiful creatures who are an integral part of the mythos of Middle-earth.<BR><BR><BR><i>Why hasn't PJ chosen to play up Frodo is this part fo the film? The transformation of Gollum into Smeagol, the Dead Marshes, Ithilian, etc., provide much to layer the film with.</i><BR><BR>He HAS chosen to play up Frodos part. A lot of the new scenes they shot involved him, Gollum and Sam. PJ has every intention of making the interactions between the 3 of them an extremely important and memorable part of the film.<BR><BR><BR><i>I suppose next that we should expect red things everytime Frodo sees a dead personage in the marshes......................</i><BR><BR>I don't follow you here?<BR><BR><BR><i>Now, after Elrond and co send the small batallion to HD, where they subsequently get slaughtered, what do Elrond and co do in film three? Sit back on their haunches and wait it out? Right.............<BR><BR>See why I have a problem with this???</i><BR><BR>You're right, I'm sure they will play a part in ROTK too. And thank goodness I say, for the exact same reasons that I've given above; I want the elves to be an integral part of the story. And if they are, then their fading becomes more important too.
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Postby Gungnir » Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:23 am

<b>No, I'm afraid not. Gandalf does have a sword and it is described as the same one he wielded in Fellowship (which was Glamdring, if you managed to read its description on the hilt). So we can assume he kept the fabled blade after he fell into the chasm and had to fight the Balrog up to the summit.<BR></b><BR><BR>The big picture of Gandalf the White on the cover of this month's Empire magazine shows him holding the same sword that he had in FotR - Glamdring.
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Postby Mithfânion » Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:29 am

First four parts are pretty much as they were in the book aren't they? Except that Glamdring gets mentioned and it doesn't in the film. But I don't care about that.<BR><BR>Nilsson, you ask good questions. Nice one about the picture between Elrond and Celeborn. I have to ask, have all your questions to this source been asked yet or are you still in the process of "interviewing"? If so, may suggestion be put forth.<BR><BR>I have to say PJ doesn't seem to have much respect for the books at all but I'm saving both my arguments and my energy on the whole Rivendell is a dream thing till a later time.
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:44 am

<i>I have to say PJ doesn't seem to have much respect for the books at all..</i><BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I can't believe anyone still holds that view.. you may not agree with his choices, but he has tried to honour the spirit of Tolkien while trying to make the story as cinematic as possible, and the whole time with the pressure to make a blockbuster dangling over his head. I hate to think what your reaction would have been about a director who <i>truly</i> didn't give a fig about the books.
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