Two Towers Questions/Answers - #10 (SPOILERS)

What do you think of Tolkien on the silver screen...? Whether Bakshi, Jackson, Amazon, BBC radio play, or whoever else, come on in and discuss your reflections, opinions, and memories...

Postby Nilson_The_White » Fri Aug 09, 2002 5:35 pm

<i>"A struggle somewhat grimmer for my part than banning a troll. I have received more spoilers, my friends... Doom is upon us, I fear."</i><BR><BR><b>1. Will we see the moment about the King having his crown again -- since it is an important and significant moment in the text, and could be so in the movie, as well?</b><BR><BR>Are you talking about that passage while Frodo and Sam are in Ithilien? It was in the script as a quiet moment when Frodo and Sam are resting. They are discussing where they should go when Frodo notices it and points it out to Sam. I have little doubt that it will be cut, however, for time.<BR><BR><BR><b>2. PJ's comment that Sauron and Saruman realize that man "must be eleminated from the face of the earth" is causing some controversy. Could you let us know if there is any dialog/actions that support this? Better yet, is there anything that opposes it?</b><BR><BR>There is much talk of the "world of men" in the script. Including Saruman declaring that the "World of Men shall fall" (which I believe was in one of the trailers). The orcs and wildmen attacking the villages of the Rohirrim do not seem keen on taking any prisoners, so it would seem enslavement -- at least at this stage -- is not Saruman's goal. His armies are killing whomever he attacks.<BR><BR>However, there is no speak of "genocide" specifically.<BR><BR><BR><b>3. Where do we last see the ents in the film?</b><BR><BR>Treebeard follows the party back to Helms Deep where his "brothers" have been stationed. We see him a few scenes before Aragorn departs for the Paths of the Dead and Pippin and Gandalf make for Minas Tirith (which is the end of the film for Aragorn & Co.). Perhaps it will be of interest to note that the Huorns have been cut from the film, mostly because there was a fear that "living trees" would be too easily confused for the Ents anyhow -- there was also nightmaric visions of Orcs running into the forst of Huorns, the trees shaking violently, and a gigantic BURP as a sing Uruk helmet flew out of the<BR>forest.<BR><BR>A decision was made that the forest of Huorns would be replaced by Ents dispatched from the battle of Isengard. They look treeish enough to be mistaken as a forest at some distance.<BR><BR><BR><b>4. Where do we first see Saruman?</b><BR><BR>The script opens with Saruman spying on the Three Hunters via his trusty palantir. We then "fade into" the scene as Aragorn picks up one of the Hobbits' lost brooches.<BR><BR>As a sidenote: I have seen some discussions on your board and I must say that Aragorn's character truly is the focus of film two. He's coming into his own as a leader, and we first begin to see glimpses of the great King in exhile. One of the most riveting scenes is, perhaps, when Aragorn is alone and left for dead with his steed. This is when he first sees Saruman's 10,000 Uruk-Hai marching acorss the plains of Rohan, which he later reports to the King.<BR><BR><BR><b>5. From your script version, is there any "last time in LOTR" voice over type thing at the beginning?</b><BR><BR>Thankfully not.
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Postby TheWagner » Fri Aug 09, 2002 5:52 pm

<i>The orcs and wildmen attacking the villages of the Rohirrim do not seem keen on taking any prisoners, so it would seem enslavement -- at least at this stage -- is not Saruman's goal. His armies are killing whomever he attacks.</i><BR><BR>That seems consistent with the books, where Saruman's army was burning everything. <BR><BR>As for the word genocide, for all the fact that it is a new word (invented to describe what the Nazi's did to the Jews), it already has become an imprecise word. But everyone knows that it is a bad thing (OK, almost everyone.... OK, a lot of people....), so the word carries weight. <BR>
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Postby Marty » Fri Aug 09, 2002 6:00 pm

If we see The Three Hunters finding Pippin's brooch before we see him dropping it, then I assume PJ's following the book's structure of jumping back and forth in time as we follow the separate actions of the Hunters and the Hobbits.<BR>
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Postby Ichjua » Fri Aug 09, 2002 6:01 pm

<i>…there was also nightmaric visions of Orcs running into the forst of Huorns, the trees shaking violently, and a gigantic BURP as a sing Uruk helmet flew out of the forest.</i> <BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0>
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Postby SonODrogo » Fri Aug 09, 2002 6:10 pm

<i>One of the most riveting scenes is, perhaps, when Aragorn is alone and left for dead with his steed. </i><BR><BR>What I want to know is why he was left for dead? An attack? By who, or what?!!11<BR><BR>BTW, Nilson, thanks for asking my question. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby jezabear » Fri Aug 09, 2002 6:40 pm

hey Nilson,,<BR>can you definitively tell what Araogrn's scene with his horse is all about.<BR>How does he end up alone?<BR>How is it that he is almost dead?
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Postby Skoda » Fri Aug 09, 2002 7:54 pm

<i> I have little doubt that it will be cut, however, for time</i><BR><BR>I would be sorely disappointed if this exchange isn't in the movie. To me, this is one of the most uplifting lines in the book at a time when everything else looks pretty bleak. <BR><BR>Nilson, I know your source has access to a script, but regarding what is cut or not, is there any reason to believe that this is more than just mere speculation, or is your source close enough to editing process where I should start preparing myself for this major disappointment. And if this line is cut, then where does the movie end as far as Frodo and Sam are concerned?
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Postby HamletPrinceofDenmark » Fri Aug 09, 2002 8:39 pm

Now while I (mostly) love PJ's vision of Middle-earth, and cannot get enough of the first film, I'm becoming more and more worried that this new film will bear little more than a passing resemblance to Books III and IV. Of course I was completely worried about nearly every reported change in the first film, only to have my worry turn (mostly) into smiles of contentment, so we'll see.....
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Postby TheRock » Fri Aug 09, 2002 9:43 pm

I was under the impression your "source" only had access to the script, now he's saying what's going to be cut? And I asked in a different thread about that Aragorn scene? I'm assuming they are ambushed and Aragorn is thought to be killed? That's why Theoden is so surprised to see him in that scene from the trailer.
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Postby Nilson_The_White » Fri Aug 09, 2002 9:55 pm

<i>BTW, Nilson, thanks for asking my question.</i><BR><BR>No problem, SonODrogo. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR><i>Can you definitively tell what Araogrn's scene with his horse is all about. How does he end up alone? How is it that he is almost dead?</i><BR><BR>This will be the first question on #11.<BR><BR><BR><i>Nilson, I know your source has access to a script, but regarding what is cut or not, is there any reason to believe that this is more than just mere speculation, or is your source close enough to editing process where I should start preparing myself for this major disappointment. </i><BR><BR>There is reason. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR><i>And if this line is cut, then where does the movie end as far as Frodo and Sam are concerned?</i><BR><BR>The movie, according to this version of the script, leaves Frodo and Sam walking towards Cirith Ungol.<BR><BR><BR><i>And I asked in a different thread about that Aragorn scene? I'm assuming they are ambushed and Aragorn is thought to be killed? That's why Theoden is so surprised to see him in that scene from the trailer.</i><BR><BR>We'll find out soon enough! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby SonODrogo » Fri Aug 09, 2002 10:03 pm

Nilson, your smiley faces leave me both frustrated and giddy with anticipation. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Winged_Balrog » Fri Aug 09, 2002 10:09 pm

I also will be extremely dissappointed if the King getting his crown back moment is not in the film. It really should be the last scene. But, I guess I'll wait and see what PJ comes up with.<BR><BR>But what IS the last scene of the film, Nilson? I assume it ends with Frodo and Sam?
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Postby Skoda » Fri Aug 09, 2002 10:23 pm

Yeah, if you say that the Frodo/Sam storyline ends with them approaching Cirith Ungol, that is pretty close to the part when Frodo notices the crown on the king. As many have mentioned before, this seems like a perfect last line for the movie, so again, why would your source assume this scene would be cut? Just to stay on the optimistic side, I'm assuming your source is underestimating this scene and just assuming it is something that could easily be left out.
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Postby Uber-Monkey » Fri Aug 09, 2002 11:25 pm

no Huorns? oh well, Ents will have to do then.<BR><BR>on another note Nilson, does your source know anything regarding the presence of Narsil/Anduril in TTT? (possible question for next time?)
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Postby Marty » Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:05 am

So Nilson, ask your source if we see Pippin dropping the brooch <i>before</i> Aragorn finds it. As described, it seems that we go from Saruman directly to the discovery with no viewer knowledge of how the brooch got there.
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Postby Mr.bunny » Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:28 am

<i>there was also nightmaric visions of Orcs running into the forst of Huorns, the trees shaking violently, and a gigantic BURP as a sing Uruk helmet flew out of the forest.</i><BR><BR>That would be awesome!!!11<BR><BR>*plop*
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Postby Klonkku » Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:41 am

Ditto, Mr. Bunny! If Lord of the Rings would be a comedy, that is <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR><BR>Thank you for this answering session, Nilson <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Dr_Strangelove » Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:44 am

<i>I also will be extremely dissappointed if the King getting his crown back moment is not in the film. </i><BR><BR>Me too, it's my favourite scene of anything Tolkien wrote.<BR><BR>I'll guess it'll wait for it on the Extended Edition Two Towers <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR>
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Postby Luinaglariel » Sat Aug 10, 2002 2:12 am

<BR>I agree with Mr.bunny! <BR><BR>Well, with the *plop* bit, anyway. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Sat Aug 10, 2002 2:29 am

How can the recrowned king not be included.. it's *the* highlight of Frodo and Sams journey in TTT. PJ, do not cut it due to time, cut something else!
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Postby Feline » Sat Aug 10, 2002 4:47 am

Nilson, thank you once againg for the spoilers. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR><i>nightmaric visions of Orcs running into the forst of Huorns, the trees shaking violently, and a gigantic BURP as a sing Uruk helmet flew out of the forest. </i><BR><BR>ROTFLMAO! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR>
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Postby Nilson_The_White » Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:33 am

<i>On another note Nilson, does your source know anything regarding the presence of Narsil/Anduril in TTT? (possible question for next time?)</i><BR><BR>From <a target=new href="http://">Spoiler Thread 2</a>:<BR>'Aragorn is <b>not</b> given Anduril in THE TWO TOWERS.'<BR><BR>'Before they leave, Arwen, dressed for the road, takes the shards of Narsil.'<BR><BR><BR><i>So Nilson, ask your source if we see Pippin dropping the brooch before Aragorn finds it. As described, it seems that we go from Saruman directly to the discovery with no viewer knowledge of how the brooch got there.</i><BR><BR>It'll be on #11. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR><i>As many have mentioned before, this seems like a perfect last line for the movie, so again, why would your source assume this scene would be cut? Just to stay on the optimistic side, I'm assuming your source is underestimating this scene and just assuming it is something that could easily be left out. </i><BR><BR>Who would have guessed that the Gift Giving scene would have been cut from FoTR? It is a very important event, one that dictates events in the future. Perhaps my source is underestimating it, or perhaps you are underestimating the cutting room floor. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby the_allmighty_Yodlnator » Sat Aug 10, 2002 9:19 am

Hi Nilson!<BR><BR>First of all: Thanks for all the spoilers you've posted in here and for making me register after 8 months of lurking around. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Do you (or your source) know, if Erkenbrand's men will also come to support the desperate Rohirim in HD, or does Gandalf just bring some Ents with him? <BR><BR>And another question: What scene do we get to see here?<BR>http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/v2/media/galerie/sonstiges/PDVD_001.jpg<BR><BR>Is this the battle of Eomer's men with the Uruk Hai or is it one of the battles that takes place at the river Isen?
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Postby Skoda » Sat Aug 10, 2002 11:30 am

<i>Perhaps my source is underestimating it, or perhaps you are underestimating the cutting room floor. </i><BR><BR>Hey, just trying to stay optimistic here. I'm not underestimating the cutting room floor - I'm just trying to get a sense of what your source knows and what he/she is merely speculating on based on his/her understanding of the script. If your source has seen a recent cut of the movie and the scene was not included, then that would be something different entirely. But it's not fair to conclude that the scene will be cut just because it isn't plot critical or a major action sequence - after all, FOTR had a few feel-good, non-essential moments that could easily have been predicted as cut, like the pipe smoking scene with Bilbo and Gandalf. And even though the gift giving scene is rather important, I would argue that this exchange with Frodo is much more important, as it carries the theme of hope in the exact same manner as what we see at the end of FOTR with the exchange between Frodo and Sam. Again, I'm just trying to understand where your source is coming from on this interpretation - speculation based on the script or actual inside information from the editing process.
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Postby llyr_ap_cenydd » Sat Aug 10, 2002 11:38 am

Are there enough Ents to pose as a forrest at Helm's Deep?
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Postby ElfStar » Sat Aug 10, 2002 11:39 am

<i>How can the recrowned king not be included.. it's *the* highlight of Frodo and Sams journey in TTT. PJ, do not cut it due to time, cut something else!</i><BR><BR>Actually, Shelob is the highlight of Frodo and Sam's journey in TTT, and we already know that won't be in TTT. So you never know. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0>
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Postby Arion » Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:46 pm

While I'm glad there won't be any "Last time in LOTR" speach at the beginning, I was wondering if they would indeed have any sort of "re-cap" of FOTR to allow those who aren't ardent fans (who've seen the film 20 times) to become re-alligned with all that has occured?<BR><BR>A prologue of sorts, I guess you could say. Much like Blanchett's narration at the beginning of FOTR.<BR><BR>And thanks so much Nilson for being our Q&A King -- THREE CHEERS FOR NILSON!<BR><BR>Hip hip, horray! Hip hip, horray! Hip hip, horray!<BR><BR>Sorry, I couldn't resist.<BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>-<b>Arion</b>
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Postby LadyEowynKenobi » Sat Aug 10, 2002 2:03 pm

thanks for the spoilers Nilson <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>if your source sounds like he/she is close to the editing team (or is [i/]on</i> the editing team, lucky git), can you ask if, in his/her judgement, Frodo is presented with a "stronger" personality compared to the FOTR (or in other words, does he get to show a bit more physical bravery rather than falling on his back all the time?). its not really an important question, just wondering if there was any improvement on his character development.
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Postby Mithfânion » Sat Aug 10, 2002 2:19 pm

<i>I also will be extremely dissappointed if the King getting his crown back moment is not in the film. </i><BR><BR>You know, I don't even recall that scene. What exactly was that, how did it come to be? Is it that moment where Frodo and Sam see the fallen statue?<BR><BR>BTW am I the only one to be especially encouraged by the source's comments about Aragorn in TTT? If he's right one of the major flaws of film I would be avoided.
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:40 pm

The King having his crown again is so central to the themes -- and isn't it the themes PJ is trying to stick to? "Look, Sam, the King has got his crown again," said Frodo. "They cannot conquer forever."<BR>But then again, a line <b>I</b> think is equally as important will be guarenteed not to be in there -- it isn't even dialogue. <i>For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought peirced him that in the end the Shdow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach</i> [the stars]. So I suppose I should be content with what I get. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-crying.gif"border=0><BR>This, of course, makes us look forward to the RotK SE DVD. Like we wouldn't anyway. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Genocide -- what do they think the Easterlings and Dunlendings are? Martians? But I still maintain that what PJ is refering to is not the <i>race</i> of Men but the collection of people that are more "civilized" -- more "human", if you wish -- than the Wild Men Sauron and Sauruman use. The Atanatari, if you will, although that name is far obsolete and wouldn't apply to the Rohirrim anyway. Calling the lands of "good" Men -- the Rohirrim, the Gondorians, the Beornings and the Dalemen -- the "world of Men" might be innacurate, but Sauron and Saruman certainly did attempt "genocide" on <i>them</i>.<BR><BR>No Huorns: <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-crying.gif"border=0><BR>More Ents: <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Aragorn finding Pippin's broach before we know he drops it follows the book and makes perfect sense. We weren't confused when reading it, were we? We know that M & P are captured by Orcs and that A, G, & L are following them, which, I think, is all we need to know.<BR>Although I'm not sure I'm quite happy with the idea of Saruman being the Cabaret MC, the "link" to tie all the story lines together. But that I will have to see how it plays out.<BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>--Nienna
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