Dwarf women have beards?

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Postby VaderSauron » Tue Oct 29, 2002 11:17 pm

I don't think there's any mention of a female dwarf in any of the books so I'm just guessing..... but I think female dwarves have beards!
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Postby Oricon » Wed Oct 30, 2002 12:42 am

I think that it might be possible.<BR><BR>In Appendix A of RotK it says:<BR><BR>"It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart."<BR><BR>Considering the number of times dwarves were described with having beards, I would assume that most male dwarves would have them. In the Hobbit Bilbo had such a view:<BR><BR>"His only comfort was that he couldn't be mistaken for a dwarf, as he had no beard." <BR><BR>So if the dwarf-women look just like the dwarf-men, and the men had beards, well..<BR><BR>Of course I haven't gotten around to reading HoMe and Unfinished Tales, so I don't know if it is expanded upon/mentioned anywhere else. Someone may come in here soon and enlighten us if it is. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby Denethor » Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:14 am

The only female Dwarf in JRRT's work who gets named is Dís (the mother of Fili and Kili). However female dwarves do have beards, just like their male counterparts. According to HoME they are even BORN with beards!
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Postby lady_of_light » Wed Oct 30, 2002 3:59 am

LOL
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Postby Armenelos » Wed Oct 30, 2002 6:48 pm

Hi VaderSauron<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>!<BR>The <a target=new href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/search.cfm">Search engine</a> is a fairly blunt tool, useful only for searching for one keyword (or username) at a time. It is also useful to limit your search to 'Books (Tolkien)' when searching for a fact. Searching for 'dwarf women' there would uncover <a target=new href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=15864">Dwarf Women</a> amidst the dross. It is worth persevering with the search function- think of it as 'the thrill of the chase' and you will find it very satisfying uncovering a useful thread <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>.
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Postby Mablung11 » Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:24 am

Ha, I just find it funny that the Dwarf Women would have beards. I guess when tolkien wrote the book he didn't know that subjects like this (and orc women) would create such debates.
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Postby StarsFallLikeRain » Sun Nov 03, 2002 8:53 am

I'm sure female dwarves have beards (mmmm attractive... I think not) and not only in tolkien but in things like the disc world book, although they're not to be taken seriously. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Me xxx
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Postby Gringitta_Blonde » Sat Nov 09, 2002 6:27 pm

i FotR there is a mention of Bilbo having a beard, some where
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Postby Mablung11 » Sat Nov 09, 2002 8:08 pm

But isn't it true that Hobbits (with the exception of a few Stoors) cannot grow beards? I think it is mentioned in The Hobbit that no hobbits can but "A tolkien Bestiary" by David Day says that The Stoors (mostly now Brandybucks) could sometimes grow beards.
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Postby Armenelos » Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:02 pm

it does not mention anywhere that Bilbo had a beard, as hobbits could not grow beards.<BR><BR>the Stoors, which were a group which joined the Perreniath (hobbits) and settled in the Shire with them, could grow small amounts of facial hair. i always imagined the little patch of hair that grows right under the bottom lip, above the chin. Smeagol/Gollum was one of the Stoors.
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Postby -Rómestámo- » Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:59 am

From "The Later Quenta Silmarillion" in HOME XI:<BR><UL>§5 (...)For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls. It is said, also, that their womenkind are few, and that save their kings and chieftains few Dwarves ever wed; wherefore their race multiplied slowly and now is dwindling.</UL><BR>So as well as the Dwarven women having beards, so too would dwarven children and babies<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> .<BR><BR>---<BR>'The Hobbit' tells us that at least Bilbo could <i>not</i> be mistaken for a dwarf as he did <i>not</i> have a beard.<BR><BR>---<BR><BR>Regarding David Day, <b>Mablung11</b>, because he is so unreliable a scholar, it is wise to take everything he writes with a grain of salt. (He extrapolates, invents and misrepresents in his entries.) See <a target=new href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=7891">Has anyone read the "A Tolkien Bestiary " by David Day?</a> or <a target=new href="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=50277">The Hobbit Companion, for David Day</a> for opinions.
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Postby Armenelos » Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:33 pm

yes, add salt to a lot of people's opinions <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Quennith » Tue Nov 12, 2002 5:55 pm

No joke-I think this is the weirdest conversation I've ever stumbled upon. I have to admit, however, that, looser that I am, have wondered this very thing. I'm . . . happy? intrigued? to know the answer to one of life's great mysteries.
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Postby Armenelos » Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:04 pm

i'm sure you're not a loser!<BR><BR>i mean, you're here with us cool people. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby smIsle » Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:43 pm

Oooh can I be a loos*cough* I mean Cool person too?<BR><BR>This is about the best thing I've read for a looooong time. I'm still laughing<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby Elentir_Silivrenmir » Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:48 pm

I think I have understood it to be so. There are so few dwarf women to begin with, an I do recall reading that if you were to encounter one, you probably wouldn't know it because they look so much like the men. That would seem to imply that they DO have beards. Might have to go back and read that again . . . <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby ElberethTheFair » Thu Nov 14, 2002 6:14 am

Whoa!Exam week over,and I come back to this weird conversation!<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I must say,that's not very pleasant for the Dwarf-women,is it?
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Postby -Rómestámo- » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:36 pm

Unfortunately, it looks as though <a href='messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=15864' target=_blank>Dwarf Women</a> has been archived <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> .<BR><BR>Bumped so this thread can avoid the same fate...
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Postby Cuivienen7 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:56 pm

Just a bit of a correction to Armenelos's post about the Stoors:<BR><BR>The Stoors were a type of Hobbit, not a race entirely separate. They were the river-hobbits, just as the Harfoots were hill-hobbits and the Fallohides, forest-hobbits. By the days of The Hobbit, most hobbits in the Shire are Harfoots. The only major Fallohide family left was the Tooks--the Fallohide hobbits were known for their adventurousness. <BR><BR>The Stoors did, indeed, come late to the Shire, about 30 years after the Fallohides and Harfoots, and, while they were originally the most numerous, many of them remained in the Vale of Anduin and never crossed the Misty Mountains at all, and others fled south, deep into Dunland, after the fall of Cardolan and their WotR-time whereabouts are unknown.<BR><BR>EDIT: and I think the actual topic has been covered thoroughly, so that was (sort of) justifiably off-topic.
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Postby MithLuin » Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:28 pm

<BR>One more crazy comment!<BR><BR>If this is true, then the only way we know that the dwarves we "meet" in the Hobbit and the LotR are male is because they go to War! Well, ok, there are plenty of "Gimli son of Gloin" comments, but think of it! If dwarves are so darn secretive, and dwarf women seldom travel...we would be none the wiser!<BR><BR>Gimli could be a woman, in secret...what a bizarre, crazy thought...<BR><BR>Of course it's not true. It's still crazy though, so I thought I'd share it anyway.
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Postby Kezmoid » Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:14 am

I can just imagine Dwarves crowding round a newborn (dwarf) baby and commenting that she has her father's eyes and her mother's beard!
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Postby balrogthane » Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:18 am

LOL ! That's insane. And that idea about Gimli being a woman : yikes. That leads to some very disturbing questions about him ? and Legolas. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0><BR><BR>But maybe some of the other dwarves on the journey with Bilbo were women. Like the ones with similar names -- perhaps one would be a woman dwarf and the other a man dwarf. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0> Like, Oin's Gloin's sister, and Ori is the sister of Nori and Dori ! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> Perhaps the dwarf-women generally started their names with vowels.<BR><BR>-(----
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Postby LadyAshley » Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:21 am

I don't think Gimli is a woman...if he were, he probably not have come. <BR><BR>It's hard to picture a bearded Dwarf-woman or babies, but it doesn't really surprise me. Then again, I don't think anyone has ever tackled the question of dwarf-women besides Tolkien (at least to my knowledge).<BR><BR>My rp dwarf characters have a dwarf, his bearded wife and beared young sons. (Non-Tolkien rp, though LOTS of the chars are influenced.)
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Postby MithLuin » Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:19 pm

<BR>No, none of the dwarves from the Hobbit can be women.<BR><BR>Dwarf women, we are told, do not go to war. The Quest to expunge Smaug from the Lonely Mountain, and the quest to regain Moria would both be examples of expeditions where fighting was expected. So, no women (unless we have any Eowyn-copy-cats!)<BR><BR>The other air-tight defence of the dwarves' sex is that we are told that Dis is the <em>only</em> dwarf-woman named in these histories. <BR><BR>I just said it was bizarre to <em>think</em> of Gimli as a woman - since he apparently looks and sounds like one! Gimli, son of Gloin, was no woman <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>.
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Postby Gamli » Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:46 am

My Goodness.... only one woman for every three men?!<BR><BR>And with a BEARD, at that?!<BR><BR>No wonder they call Erebor the "Lonely" Mountain!!
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Postby Maegnas » Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:03 am

Gimli a lass???? Well, that's something I never thought!!! Just imagine the possibilities!

First of all the "Gimli, son of Gloin" line was a repeated mistake :wink:
Second, Legolas seems to have been a very close friend with said lass. I wonder what went on between them in the Glittering Caves :oops:
Third, shouldn't he fall for Celeborn instead of Galadriel? (although the fact that he falls for Galadriel is in itself a very "kinky" thought :twisted: )

OK, let's get serious now :roll: . Too many bearder people (and children for that matter!) probably means that no one is disturbed when hair is spotted in the soup :lol: . Not to mention that selling razors to dwarves probably is not the best way to get rich :cry2: . And imagine the frustration at a party (I believe dwarves had occasions similar to parties) when you come on to the quiet, shy little lass just to discover "she" is the son of someone :oops:

Very nice thread indeed! Thanks for cheering me up :)
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Postby BrianIsSmilingAtYou » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:34 pm

Here's a piece of artwork that as originally linked in the Art Forum with one person's view of a bearded dwarf-woman.

The Past (This also shows dwarf-children with beards.)

Close-up

One possible objection to this portrayal is that the dwarf-woman, despite the beard, is quite feminine, and would not be mistaken for a man

Part of the reason for this is that the beard is not full, and is braided, while her male companions beard is not.

However, the possibility that particular females would take such attention to so distinguish themselves is reasonable.

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Postby Tolkien_Jr. » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:13 am

I don't think in the real world, or Tolkien's fantasies, or in his fantasies

fantasies, or in the fantasies of fantasies, and all other fantasies, have I

ever, ever, ever,ever, heard of any female with a beard, or any other

facial hair.
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Postby Dad-human » Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:42 am

Tolkien_Jr. wrote:I don't think in the real world, or Tolkien's fantasies, or in his fantasies

fantasies, or in the fantasies of fantasies, and all other fantasies, have I

ever, ever, ever,ever, heard of any female with a beard, or any other

facial hair.


Some women in our world do have facial hair.

HOWEVER I am quite sure that Dwarf women did not, as I mentioned before. And here is why:

Tolkien's purpose in writing his books was to inspire people, to elevate their emotions, to kindle their creativity, etc.

Now imagine a Dwarf woman with a long beard. Are you inspired? Have your emotions been elevated? Is your creativity kindled? Etc?

I rest my case. :-)
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Postby Finding_Frodo » Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:48 pm

I saw thread and remembered a fan fic on the same topic that I also stumbled on recently over at henneth-annun.net: "Sapphires Set in Diamonds" by Deborah. I recommend it if you're not already too creeped out by the idea!
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