Spoilers from the Photo Guide

What do you think of Tolkien on the silver screen...? Whether Bakshi, Jackson, Amazon, BBC radio play, or whoever else, come on in and discuss your reflections, opinions, and memories...

Postby Iavas_Saar » Wed Nov 06, 2002 1:46 pm

Accompanying text in bold, movie quotes in italics:<BR><BR><b>Frodo Baggins is troubled by nightmares.</b><BR><BR><i>"What is it Mr Frodo?"<BR>"Nothing. A dream"<BR><BR>"Morder... the one place in Middle-earth we don't want to see any closer; and it's the one place we're trying to get to."<BR><BR>"I think we may have made a mistake leaving the Shire, Pippin."<BR><BR>"They have something... some elvish weapon... the Master wants it for the war."<BR><BR>"They think we have the Ring!"<BR>"Shhhh - as soon as they find out we don't, we're dead!"</i><BR><BR><b>The Uruks' camp is attacked by Eomer's riders, and in the confusion Merry and Pippin escape. Fleeing into Fangorn Forest, the two hobbits are chased by the angry Grishnakh.</b><BR><BR><i>"Filthy little squeakers! I'm gonna cut maggot holes in your belly!"</i><BR><BR><b>An unexpected ally comes to their rescue.</b><BR><BR><i>"What are you?"<BR>"I am an Ent. Treebeard, some call me."</i><BR><BR><b>Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli follow the hobbits' trail into the eerie Fangorn Forest. Suddenly, they glimpse an old man watching them through the trees.</b><BR><BR><i>Gimli: "Saruman!"<BR>Legolas: "The White Wizard..."<BR>Aragorn: "No! It cannot be... Gandalf!"<BR><BR>"Far beneath the living earth... I fought him - the Balrog of Morgoth. Darkness took me... But it was not the end. The task was not done - I was sent back."<BR><BR>"He is the lord of all horses and has been a friend to me through many dangers."<BR><BR>"You know the way to Mordor. You've been there before. Take us to the Black Gate."<BR><BR>Sam: "It's a bog... he's led us into a swamp!"</i><BR><BR><b>As they continue their journey across the Marshes, Gollum tells them how his cousin, Deagol, found the Ring many years ago while they were out fishing. Gollum, or Smeagol as he was known then, wanted the Ring so much that he killed his cousin and stole it.</b><BR><BR><i>"Murderer they called us... and sent us away."</i><BR><BR><b>After commiting this terrible crime, Gollum fled from his home and went to live in a cave under the Misty Mountains with only the Ring for company. There he grew wretched and miserable and full of self pity.</b><BR><BR><i>"I cannot let you before the king so armed, Gandalf Greyhame, by order of Grima Wormtongue."<BR><BR>"Would you part an old man from his walking stick?"</i><BR><BR><b>The king's niece, Eowyn, is mourning the death of her cousin, Theodred, who was fatally injured in battle against Saruman's Orcs. Now she grows worried for the safety of her brother, Eomer.<BR>Eowyn is pestered by the king's counsellor, the loathsome Grima Wormtongue, who is captivated by her even though she despises him.</b><BR><BR><i>"Leave me alone, snake... Your words are poison."<BR>"I understand. His passing is hard to accept - especially now that your brother has deserted you."<BR><BR>"Ever have you been the herald of woe. Why should I welcome you, Gandalf Stormcrow?"<BR><BR>"Too long have you sat in the shadows. Harken to me! I release you from this spell!"<BR><BR>"His staff! I told you to take the wizards staff!"</i><BR><BR><b>Released from Saruman's power, Theoden comes to his senses, regaining his old strength. Wormtongue is revealed to be a traitor, and the king throws him out of the palace.</b><BR><BR><i>"Ever his whispering was in your ears... poisoning your thoughts."<BR><BR>"Banishment is too good for you."</i><BR><BR><b>Saruman is furious that Gandalf has released King Theoden from his spell. Now more drastic actions are required to conquere the kingdom of Rohan.<BR>Arming a rabble of five hundred Dunlendings and Wild Men, savages who live in the hills around Rohan, Saruman sends them on a rampage of chaos and destruction.</b><BR><BR><i>"Take back the lands they stole from you. Burn every village!"<BR><BR>"This is but a taste of the terror that Saruman will unleash..."</i><BR><BR><b>Gandalf counsels King Theoden to send his troops to fight Sarumans army and draw them away from the women and children. The king decides to evacuate the city and take all his people to the safety of the mighty fortress of Helms Deep.<BR><BR>Aragorn helps to oversee the departure of the last of the horses. Brego, the battle-worn steed of the dead prince, Theodred, is too distressed to carry another rider.</b><BR><BR><i>"Turn this fellow free. He has seen enough of war."<BR><BR>"Master says bring usss to the Gatesss, so good Smeagol does."</i><BR><BR><b>A long column of fearsome-looking Easterlings march past Sam and Frodo and through the great iron gates into Mordor.</b><BR><BR><i>"Well that's it, then. We can't get in there."</i><BR><BR><b>Grima Wormtongue returns to his true master. He tells Saruman that King Theodens instinct will be to make for Helms Deep. Saruman decides to send his Orcs to attack the refugees.</b><BR><BR><i>"Theoden made two mistakes. First he trusted you, then he let you live."</i><BR><BR><b>At the City of the Trees, Elrond calls a council of the Elves. He believes that they should help in the struggle against Sauron, but not everyone agrees.</b><BR><BR><i>"The Rings of the Elf Lords were not made as weapons of war or conquest. They cannot come to the aid of Men."<BR><BR>"The alliance between Men and Elves is over."</i><BR><BR><b>Later, Elrond confronts his daughter Arwen about her decision to stay behind with Aragorn. By pledging her love to a mortal man, she must accept that she will grow old and die with him while her people remain young forever. Elrond thinks she has made the wrong choice.</b><BR><BR><i>"There is nothing here for you, only death."<BR><BR>(Legolas I assume): "Wargs!!!"</i><BR><BR><b>As the refugees and soldiers pass through the mountains, they are ambushed by Orcs riding giant wolf-beasts. They break ranks to engage the legion of snarling Wargs which attack them, and Aragorn becomes locked in a deadly battle with Sharku.<BR><BR>Reaching the woods of Ithilien, Frodo and Sam run into a party of Gondorian Rangers, who mistake them for Orc spies. They are blindfolded and taken to their hideaway, Henneth Annun.<BR>The Rangers discover the nature of Frodo's mission. Hearing that Boromir was one of the Fellowship, the Rangers' leader, Faramir, has shocking news...</b><BR><BR><i>"You were a friend of Boromir? It would grieve you then, to learn that he is dead?"</i><BR><BR><b>Faramir reveals that he is Boromir's brother and the son of Lord Denethor, the Steward of Gondor. Learning of the One Ring, he vows to take the Ring to Gondor, and complete Boromir's mission.<BR><BR>Treebeard carries Merry and Pippin deep into the forest. They reach the Entmoot, a gathering of many different tree-people, and wait patiently while the spirits of the forest discuss their fate.</b><BR><BR><i>"It's been going on for hours."<BR>"They must have decided something by now."<BR>"Decided? We've only just finished saying Good Morning!"</i><BR><BR><b>Merry and Pippin's appeal to the Ents to help in the fight against the evil of Isengard stirs them up, and they agree to march to Saruman's lair.</b><BR><BR><i>"It is likely, my friends, that we go to our doom: the last march of the Ents..."</i><BR><BR><b>The refugees and Rohan soldiers finally reach the ancient fortress of Helms Deep. They gather in the Hornburg courtyard.<BR>As Legolas and Gimli gallop through the gates, King Theoden tells Eowyn how they were ambushed and that many of their number were killed.</b><BR><BR><i>Eowyn: "Lord Aragorn - where is he?"<BR>Gimli: "He fell defending the retreat."</i><BR><BR><b>Having fallen in battle with Sharku, Aragorn is barely alive. As he struggles to get up, an unexpected champion comes to his aid.</b><BR><BR><i>"Brego...?"</i><BR><BR><b>Brought safely to Helms Deep by Brego, Aragorn has urgent news for King Theoden. He has seen thousands of Uruk-hai marching towards the fortress.</b><BR><BR><i>"All Isengard has emptied... Ten thousand strong at least. It is an army bred for a single purpose - to destroy the world of Men."</i><BR><BR><b>Legolas is worried: the defenders are frightened, and he fears three hundred of them cannot hold out against an army of ten thousand Uruk-hai. He feels betrayed by his own people and believes that the Elves should not have left the men to stand alone.<BR><BR>The Rangers reach Osgiliath, once one of the greatest cities in all of Gondor, but now in ruins after years of war. Faramir intends to take Frodo with him to the city of Minas Tirith and use the Ring in their struggle against Sauron. Sam pleads with him:</b><BR><BR><i>"The Ring will not save Gondor." (Surely they mean Frodo pleads)</i><BR><BR><b>Faramir finally sees the evil in the Ring and realises that it is impossible to use it for good. He is persuaded to let Frodo, Sam and Gollum continue their journey to Mordor, and leads them to the old sewers where they can pass underneath the patrolling Orcs.</b><BR><BR><i>"Go, Frodo, go with the good will of all Men."</i><BR><BR><b>Merry and Pippin arrive at Isengard with the marching Ents. From his tower, Saruman watches as the massive tree-people break down the walls around his stronghold.</b><BR><BR><i>"There is a wizard to manage here... locked in his tower!"</i><BR><BR><b>Meanwhile, weary from the battle of Helms Deep, Gandalf the White warns his friends that they have not seen the last of the Orcs and their kind.</b><BR><BR><i>"Saurons wrath will be terrible and his retribution swift. The battle for Helms Deep is over. The battle for Middle-earth is about to begin."<BR><BR>"All our hopes now lie with two little hobbits... somewhere in the wilderness."</i>
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Wed Nov 06, 2002 2:09 pm

Of particular note:<BR><BR>1. Now the whole warg/Aragorn/Brego storyline is clear. Aragorns kindness to Brego is rewarded when Brego later saves his life. I REALLY like this change. And I think it is very Tolkien-esque with regard to Tolkiens love of nature. This change emphasises the benefit of being kind to the natural world.<BR><BR>2. Gollum tells Frodo and Gollum about his past. Did he do this in the book, I thought we got Gollums backstory only from Gandalf?<BR><BR>3. Eowyn will think Aragorn is dead when he fails to arrive at Helms Deep, which could explain some of her emotional scenes we've seen in the trailers.<BR><BR>4. Legolas is given some extra character development at Helms Deep. And we know how it will be resolved of course. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> I personally look forward to this, but I'm sure some people will be less than happy!
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Wed Nov 06, 2002 2:10 pm

Don't like the change to Faramir's character. (BTW, I didn't read the quotes, just the descriptions. Thanks for delineating between the two, Iavas.) But it turns out the same in the end, so I suppose I shouldn't complain too much. Also "gives Faramir more of a character arc" blah blah blah normal Revisionist argument.<BR><BR>Damn you, PJ, what are you doing to my story?
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Wed Nov 06, 2002 2:15 pm

<i>3. Eowyn will think Aragorn is dead when he fails to arrive at Helms Deep, which could explain some of her emotional scenes we've seen in the trailers.</i><BR><BR>I assume her finding out Aragorn is alive is where we see her crying with her hand on Aragorn's face.<BR><BR>I don't see why they couldn't do it like it was in the books, but there's nothing much I can object to, I guess. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR><i>4. Legolas is given some extra character development at Helms Deep. And we know how it will be resolved of course. I personally look forward to this, but I'm sure some people will be less than happy!</i><BR><BR>Less than happy about Legolas' character development? Of course not, other than the fact that it's developing his character in ways that are specifically contradictory to his character in the books. <i>"I do not think any would come. They have no need to march to war, war already marches on their own land."</i> So much for Elvish fading.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>PS <i>(Legolas I assume): "Wargs!!!"</i><BR><BR>Did I not say this would be one of his lines? Probably accompanied by another line "Orcs!" at some point in the movie. And "Riders of Rohan!", too. Maybe even "Elves! At Helm's Deep!" <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby Feline » Wed Nov 06, 2002 2:36 pm

They are cleverly still keeping the Voice of Saruman part a secret. It's only logical, of course, not to reveal the ending, but I bet it's driving everyone nuts. Which alternative did they choose? Does he die or not? I wish December was here already...<BR><BR><i>"Decided? We've only just finished saying Good Morning!"</i><BR><BR>LOL! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>
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Postby robo » Wed Nov 06, 2002 2:45 pm

So Frodo and Sam end TTT nowhere near Minas Morgul.<BR><BR>It also doesn't look like the Nazgul are dealt with much if at all in TTT. I would have expected the movie to end further along the plotline though I suppose this book might be shortened.
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Postby RangerSmith » Wed Nov 06, 2002 2:49 pm

Wow PJ is really taking many more liberties with the narrative in this one. Are we sure about the accuracy of this book? The only parts that bother me right now is Legolas being angry about the elves not coming to Helms deep, and frodo going through the sewers of Osigliath. <BR> Faramir's character is still the same as the books imo. He was tempted by the ring for an instant it seems before rejecting it, I think the way PJ is presenting will seem more plausible to general audiences. <BR> As for Legolas, if this is accurate, then the butchery of the fading of the elves continues unabated in the films. I prefer Legolas' lines from the book here.<BR> The book may have taken these lines and plot points from an earlier rough cut of the film as it takes a couple months at least to put everything together. Much of this may actually change in the final film version.
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Postby Random_Appendage » Wed Nov 06, 2002 2:53 pm

I dunno, but for all the qualms (and few there are) I have about this, I think that there is one BIG thing that is shown here:<BR><BR>THE ORDER OF EVENTS IN THE MOVIE :-0<BR><BR>I'm sorry about getting too excited, but from these excerpts shouldn't some issues be resolved?<BR><BR><i>Gimli: "Saruman!"<BR>Legolas: "The White Wizard..."<BR>Aragorn: "No! It cannot be... Gandalf!"</i><BR>Keeping the white wizard/saruman roaming the forest!<BR><BR><i>"I cannot let you before the king so armed, Gandalf Greyhame, by order of Grima Wormtongue."<BR><BR>"Would you part an old man from his walking stick?"<BR><BR>"Leave me alone, snake... Your words are poison."<BR>"I understand. His passing is hard to accept - especially now that your brother has deserted you."<BR><BR>"Ever have you been the herald of woe. Why should I welcome you, Gandalf Stormcrow?"<BR><BR>"Too long have you sat in the shadows. Harken to me! I release you from this spell!"<BR><BR>"His staff! I told you to take the wizards staff!"</i><BR>I'm extremely glad PJ kept in the leaving of the weapons, and Gandalf's passing of the shadow over Theoden.<BR><BR><b>As the refugees and soldiers pass through the mountains, they are ambushed by Orcs riding giant wolf-beasts. They break ranks to engage the legion of snarling Wargs which attack them, and Aragorn becomes locked in a deadly battle with <u><i>Sharku.</u></i></b><BR>I'm confused about this "Sharku" deal. Wasn't that the orc's name for Saruman (meaning old man)?<BR><BR>I'm not sure how I feel about Faramir yet.<BR><BR><b>Treebeard carries Merry and Pippin deep into the forest. They reach the Entmoot, a gathering of many different tree-people, and wait patiently while the spirits of the forest discuss their fate.</b><BR><BR><i>"It's been going on for hours."<BR>"They must have decided something by now."<BR>"Decided? We've only just finished saying Good Morning!"</i><BR><BR><b>Merry and Pippin's appeal to the Ents to help in the fight against the evil of Isengard stirs them up, and they agree to march to Saruman's lair.</b><BR><BR><i>"It is likely, my friends, that we go to our doom: the last march of the Ents..."</i><BR><BR>Does this mean we're gonna see the entmoot?<BR><BR><b>Merry and Pippin arrive at Isengard with the marching Ents. From his tower, Saruman watches as the massive tree-people break down the walls around his stronghold.</b><BR><BR><i>"There is a wizard to manage here... locked in his tower!"</i><BR><BR>Is this the Storming of Isengard... in <u>REAL TIME</u>?!<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>I dunno, but reading this makes me anticipate TTT that much more...<BR><BR>
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Postby Bernd » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:06 pm

I'm not saying this because I like to be a contrarian (which I do), but I gotta tell you: this sounds like the stupidest story I've ever heard.<BR><BR><i>Having fallen in battle with Sharku, Aragorn is barely alive. As he struggles to get up, an unexpected champion comes to his aid.<BR><BR>"Brego...?"</i><BR><BR>How positively dumb is that? It'll sound like he's saying "Prego!" I know Viggo is multi-ligual and crap, but that's going too far. Maybe he'll say Mamma Mia when he chops off the head of Sharku (what is that name all about?)<BR><BR><i>Legolas is worried: the defenders are frightened, and he fears three hundred of them cannot hold out against an army of ten thousand Uruk-hai. He feels betrayed by his own people and believes that the Elves should not have left the men to stand alone.</i><BR><BR>Legolas betrayed? What an unnecessary and useless character arc! Just look pretty and fire your arrows, Leggy. No one cares what you think.<BR><BR><i>Faramir finally sees the evil in the Ring and realises that it is impossible to use it for good. He is persuaded to let Frodo, Sam and Gollum continue their journey to Mordor, and leads them to the old sewers where they can pass underneath the patrolling Orcs.</i><BR><BR>Frodo, Sam and <b>GOLLUM</b>?? Gollum's just hanging out with his master and all the rangers? How does this make any sense? I thought they were increasing the "psychological element" to this aspect of the story, not having Gollum act as the Jar-Jarian sidekick to Frodo and the boys.<BR><BR>I could go on. Booorrring!!11
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Postby noledge » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:18 pm

I don't like the bit about Gollum telling the hobbits about how he killed Deagol for the Ring. For starters, Deagol wasn't his cousin (or was he?). And second, Gollum wouldn't admit that he killed someone for the Ring. He's always claimed that it was a birthday present and even has convinced himself that that is how he came by the Ring, he would never admit such a thing, it would drive him insane...
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Postby ~Lady_of_Ithilien~ » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:28 pm

As much as I love FOTR I do have to say that I am a little wary of Faramir's character, and I know that I really cannot jump to many conclusions having only this to go on. But now the whole "going to Osgiliath" makes more sense, although I don't know what to think about it. I loved how the whole situation was dealt with in the book, to bad it could not have been done the same way. I guess I'll have to wait and see.
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Postby noledge » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:30 pm

<i>"All our hopes now lie with two little hobbits... somewhere in the wilderness." </i><BR><BR>I expect that this will be one of the last lines in film. Pj will probably then cut to Sam and Frodo reaching some sort of climax (Minas Morgul? Stairs of Cirith Ungol?) have one or two last lines like FOTR then end...
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:31 pm

<i>Less than happy about Legolas' character development? Of course not, other than the fact that it's developing his character in ways that are specifically contradictory to his character in the books. "I do not think any would come. They have no need to march to war, war already marches on their own land." So much for Elvish fading.</i><BR><BR>But the book is still just Legolas stating the obvious, and not really <i>feeling</i> anything himself. If the Legolas of the film has no idea that the elvish lands are being attacked (how did he know in the book?), then perhaps he may feel slightly guilty for being the only representative of his race at the battle. And I'm personally not sure how elves wanting to prevent the land they have loved for thousands of years from falling into darkness before they leave is such a bad thing for elvish fading? Would they be happy travelling to Valinor knowing their former home is about to be destroyed? I actually think it might be very powerful if the elves come to realise that the world of men IS worth fighting for after all, mirrored in Elronds personal change of heart over Aragorn.<BR><BR><BR><i>As for Legolas, if this is accurate, then the butchery of the fading of the elves continues unabated in the films.</i><BR><BR>Butchery? See my reply above. I think by showing that the elves are prepared to put up one last fight before they go it could make their eventual fading even more poignant.<BR><BR><BR><i>The book may have taken these lines and plot points from an earlier rough cut of the film as it takes a couple months at least to put everything together.</i><BR><BR>This is true. There was quite a lot in the equivalent photo guide for FOTR that never appeared in the final film.<BR><BR><BR><i>How positively dumb is that? It'll sound like he's saying "Prego!" I know Viggo is multi-ligual and crap, but that's going too far. Maybe he'll say Mamma Mia when he chops off the head of Sharku (what is that name all about?)</i><BR><BR>Bernd, you've lost me. What is this "Prego!" stuff about? I don't understanf your complaint about this scene.<BR><BR><BR><i>Legolas betrayed? What an unnecessary and useless character arc! Just look pretty and fire your arrows, Leggy. No one cares what you think.</i><BR><BR>Eh? You don't want Legolas to show any interesting emotion? Perhaps this isn't the best emotion for him to show, but atleast PJ is trying to make him more than a cardboard cut-out.<BR><BR><BR><i>Frodo, Sam and GOLLUM?? Gollum's just hanging out with his master and all the rangers? How does this make any sense? I thought they were increasing the "psychological element" to this aspect of the story, not having Gollum act as the Jar-Jarian sidekick to Frodo and the boys.</i><BR><BR>A little too much speculation on your part I fear. We have no idea how Gollum will be handled during this part of the film.
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:37 pm

Yes, well, Iavas, we know what you think. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Mithfânion » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:37 pm

What strikes me as most interesting from this interesting collage (nice work Iavas):<BR><BR><i>At the City of the Trees, Elrond calls a council of the Elves. He believes that they should help in the struggle against Sauron, but not everyone agrees.<BR><BR>"The Rings of the Elf Lords were not made as weapons of war or conquest. They cannot come to the aid of Men."</i><BR><BR>Why are Three Rings brought into this I wonder? In the context of going to war, they are not relevant. Or will they be?<BR><BR>Surely the Elves in the movie are not so misguided that they believe that they can only be efficient due to the Rings, that they cannot be excellent warriors on their own? It does not do to forget the past, certainly not if you're an Elf <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>This can mean either of two things; Elrond obviously manages to convince the Elves. So does this meeting result only in sending a group of Elves to sooth the oh so disappointed Legolas? Or are we looking at the beginnings of final stand of the Elves at the Morannon? Or both?<BR><BR>"Look out for Elrond" PJ said. Indeed, now that he has him in Lorien he's coming closer and closer to where he was 3,000 years ago. Will his story come full circle?<BR><BR>Random appendage:<BR><BR><i>I'm confused about this "Sharku" deal. Wasn't that the orc's name for Saruman (meaning old man)?</i><BR><BR>Close. Saruman's nickname was "Sharky".<BR><BR>
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Postby NiennaSorrowing » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:39 pm

And so much for the "Last Alliance".<BR><BR>Maedhros would have been proud.
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Postby Iavas_Saar » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:49 pm

<i>"Look out for Elrond" PJ said. Indeed, now that he has him in Lorien he's coming closer and closer to where he was 3,000 years ago. Will his story come full circle?</i><BR><BR>You're probably right.. and guess what.. I like the sound of it. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0> It would make Elrond a helluva more interesting character for me.
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Postby davidm » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:51 pm

<i>They are cleverly still keeping the Voice of Saruman part a secret. It's only logical, of course, not to reveal the ending, but I bet it's driving everyone nuts. Which alternative did they choose? Does he die or not? </i><BR><BR>I think it's pretty clear by now that the "Voice of Saruman" scene will not come until the third film.<BR><BR>
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Postby Mithfânion » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:53 pm

There is actually a very disturbing quote in there that I somehow missed...<BR><BR><i>Legolas is worried: the defenders are frightened, and he fears three hundred of them cannot hold out against an army of ten thousand Uruk-hai. He feels betrayed by his own people and believes that the Elves should not have left the men to stand alone.</i><BR><BR>As Nienna points out, this is <b>completely</b> contradictory. I cannot believe this. In the books Legolas flat-out states that he has reconciled himself with the absence of his people because they themselves have wars to fight. PJ simply turns this around and makes him someone who feels betrayed. The sheer gal of it!<BR><BR>This is one of those really silly, relatively small changes that get on one's nerves. Similar to Gandalf's diminished role in several parts of the first film. Like him being the one who is desperately trying to avoid entering Moria while in the book it is precisely Gandalf who keeps pushing to enter Moria. Sigh. This Legolas statement is worse though. <BR><BR>Anyone who will claim this is good in the name of "character development" will find out that Sequoia's are NOT the highest trees in the world after all <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-devil.gif"border=0>
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Postby Frobbit » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:56 pm

yeah its worrying isnt it <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> <BR><BR>Watch out for Elrond, indeed<BR><BR>Oh well trust PJ I guess. Im sure it wont happen. Not after this lovely FOTR Extened adition hes given us.<BR><BR>Even so all this talk of guilty Elves. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif"border=0> hmmmmmm
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Postby Mithfânion » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:56 pm

<b>I think it's pretty clear by now that the "Voice of Saruman" scene will not come until the third film</b><BR><BR>David, that is the second time today someone says that. Why would it be in film three? How are we led to believe this is so?
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Postby vynaca_of_mirkwood » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:57 pm

Iavas - Prego means "You're welcome" in Italian. It's also a spaghetti sauce brand here in the US. Latest rumor: Brego's head will be found in Aragorn's bed in ROTK.
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Postby davidm » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:59 pm

<i>Close. Saruman's nickname was "Sharky".</i><BR><BR>But that nickname WAS derived from the Orcish word, Sharku, meaning "old man" -- according to Tolkien.<BR><BR>Like "Lurtz" in FOTR, Sharku will be a name that is not spoken during the films. The Weta folks refers to the orc who battles Aragorn in TTT as Sharku, because his make-up makes him look like an older orc.
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Postby davidm » Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:06 pm

<i>David, that is the second time today someone says that. Why would it be in film three? How are we led to believe this is so? </i><BR><BR>1. We've heard that the Battle of Helm's Deep ends with about ten minutes remaining in the film.<BR><BR>2. Looking at the music titles in the soundtrack album, one can make out most of the film's sequence -- but no indication of a "Flotsam and Jetsam" or "Voice of Saruman" musical piece.<BR><BR>3. No indications in any of the TTT merchandise of a "Voice of Saruman" sequence. For example, the Decipher TTT Card Game list does not include a VoS card, even though that would be an obvious thing to put into such a game -- if it were in TTT.<BR><BR>4. Christopher Lee says that he will be in the third film but does not yet know Saruman's fate. Meanwhile, PJ says that there will be no Scouring of the Shire sequence.<BR><BR>That all adds up to no "Voice of Saruman" scene until the third film.
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Postby Foghorn » Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:14 pm

Who/what is Brego? What is his/her/its role in the movie? Did I somehw miss him/her/it in the books each of the 7 or 8 times I've read it?<BR><BR>Thanks!
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Postby Mithfânion » Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:17 pm

That's pretty depressing. It's one of the coolest scenes in the entire second book, and they shift that to RoTK as well? I would be very disappointed to find this to be true. Another chance for Gandalf to look awesome shifted to film three.<BR><BR>When did we hear that HD ends ten minutes before the ending? And is there a link to all the tracks on the soundtrack?
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Postby davidm » Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:19 pm

<i>Who/what is Brego? What is his/her/its role in the movie? Did I somehw miss him/her/it in the books each of the 7 or 8 times I've read it?</i><BR><BR>Brego is Aragorn's horse in TTT (the film).
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Postby Dave_LF » Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:20 pm

<i>Faramir finally sees the evil in the Ring and realises that it is impossible to use it for good.</i><BR><BR>I wonder if the thing that clues him in is Frodo going berzerk with his sword inside Osgiliath (seen in the most recent trailer).
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Postby Feline » Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:21 pm

<i>I think it's pretty clear by now that the "Voice of Saruman" scene will not come until the third film.</i><BR><BR>DavidM, Are you absolutely certain? I still have hope that the Voice of Saruman scene will be in TTT. <BR><BR>There is a track called "Isengard Unleashed" at the end of the soundtrack. Maybe it could include music for that scene? Of course, ten minutes doesn't sound like much, but you never know... <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Bernd » Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:24 pm

Aragorn should have been played by Roberto Benigni. At least his "Prego!" is authentic.<BR><BR>I think Viggo's doing all this horse whisperer crap to train for his role in next year's Hidalgo. It's chock full of Dr. Doolittlean equine chatting too...but without the Italian accent>
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