At last -- a pronunciation error thread!

What do you think of Tolkien on the silver screen...? Whether Bakshi, Jackson, Amazon, BBC radio play, or whoever else, come on in and discuss your reflections, opinions, and memories...

Postby roaccarcsson » Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:04 pm

Sorry to take so long, but there isn't really all that much to talk about here.<BR><BR>Gandalf says Edor-ass. Should of course be a broad a. (Peculiar that McKellen the Old Pro should have the most trouble getting this stuff right.)<BR><BR>The other thing worthy of comment is that the "y" in Eowyn is pronounced like "i." I never really expected it to be otherwise, so I wouldn't even mention it, except that Bernard Hill <b>does</b> use the right vowel when he says "simbelmyne." If you are going to be wrong you should be consistent about it IMO.<BR><BR>
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby NiennaSorrowing » Tue Jan 28, 2003 12:15 am

But on a positive note, Orlando Bloom aquited himself well in the Sindarin department, and we were spared the horror of having to listen to Cate Blanchette and Craig Parker (?) mangle it again.<BR><BR>Weaving and Tyler are decent, Mortensen good except for his habit of slurring consonants, as usual. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
NiennaSorrowing
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 3516
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2001 9:34 pm
Top

Postby Telemachos » Tue Jan 28, 2003 12:27 am

<i>Mortensen good except for his habit of slurring consonants, as usual. </i><BR><BR>He speaks Sindarin like a drunk Sailor from the West on shore leave. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
Telemachos
Ringbearer


 
Posts: 13789
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2001 11:19 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Top

Postby Denethor » Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:25 am

I must admit that I am still pulling my hair out about the pronounciation of the name of Glóin (as in 'Gimli son of Glóin). They are still pronouncing it to rhyme with 'coin' when it is supposed to be pronounced Glow-in. <BR><BR>-Denethor, the utter pedant.
User avatar
Denethor
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 4550
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 9:33 pm
Location: New Zealand
Top

Postby Gungnir » Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:22 am

<b>They are still pronouncing it to rhyme with 'coin' when it is supposed to be pronounced Glow-in.</b><BR><BR>I don't recall anyone pronouncing it "Gloyne" - are you sure?<BR><BR>
User avatar
Gungnir
Mariner

 
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 7:05 am
Location: Isle of Man
Top

Postby Vanahir » Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:37 am

Elrond: "The ring cannot be destroyed, Gimli son of Gloin, by any craft that we here possess."
User avatar
Vanahir
Citizen of Imladris
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:59 am
Top

Postby Eanneling » Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:38 am

I think Mortensens habit of slurring his consonants must come from his danish origins.. With the vowels so much like danish ones, it is probably tempting for him to pronounce his consonants that way.. Being from Norway, where the language is written almost indentically to danish except for a few key consonants, (p instead of b, t instead of d, k instead of g) it always amazes me how different danish sounds..
User avatar
Eanneling
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 400
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 12:06 pm
Top

Postby Gungnir » Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:23 am

<b>Elrond: "The ring cannot be destroyed, Gimli son of Gloin, by any craft that we here possess." </b><BR><BR>Yes, and Elrond pronounces it correctly: "Glow-in" - again I ask, at what point did someone pronounce it "Gloyne"?
User avatar
Gungnir
Mariner

 
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 7:05 am
Location: Isle of Man
Top

Postby Vanahir » Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:30 am

<i>Yes, and Elrond pronounces it correctly: "Glow-in" - again I ask, at what point did someone pronounce it "Gloyne"? </i><BR><BR>Well maybe we have different versions of the film but on both my theatrical and extended DVDs I'm sure I can hear old Elrond say Gloin that rhymes with groin. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif"border=0>
User avatar
Vanahir
Citizen of Imladris
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:59 am
Top

Postby Feline » Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:43 am

IMO Viggo's Sindarin was nearly flawless. Weaving did a nice job also. Liv and Orli were quite good, except for a couple of really bad mistakes. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Oh, and stay tuned for the "Nitpicker's Guide to Bad Elvish, Part 2"... <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
User avatar
Feline
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2942
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 8:44 am
Top

Postby TheLidlessEyes » Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:57 am

The linguistics in Middle Earth are so rich. But thanks to the Peter Jackson I can now fart and burp fluently in four invented languages.
User avatar
TheLidlessEyes
Mariner


 
Posts: 9760
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:47 am
Top

Postby Gungnir » Tue Jan 28, 2003 9:01 am

Vanahir wrote <b>Well maybe we have different versions of the film but on both my theatrical and extended DVDs I'm sure I can hear old Elrond say Gloin that rhymes with groin.</b><BR><BR>I think you need to watch that bit again. Or visit your doctor to have your ears syringed. Elrond pronounces it correctly.
User avatar
Gungnir
Mariner

 
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 7:05 am
Location: Isle of Man
Top

Postby TintallëElentári » Tue Jan 28, 2003 9:47 am

well, I'm quite concerned about the pronunciation error in Sméagol.<BR><BR>it's "S M "EH" AGOL" as "éa" in spanish. But the "Smeegol" thing is all over the place. <BR><BR>we hated it, preciousses.<BR><BR><BR>
User avatar
TintallëElentári
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 1488
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:37 am
Top

Postby Nerdanel » Tue Jan 28, 2003 9:54 am

I really should see the movie again, but I seem to remember noting the y in Éowyn being prounounced correctly as an y (or ü for you Anglosaxons). On the other hand, Théoden's y in simbelmynë sounded a bit too u to me.<BR><BR>The difference must be either in my ears/memory or the fact that my native language happens to have that y/ü sound while modern English does not. I was recently on a course which had some material on linguistics and we got to hear recordings of foreign phonemes. About half of those strange and numerous Eastern European consonants sounded like p to me and the rest were mostly b or l. It may be that people who do not have a little box in their brains for y are mistaking it for something more familiar.<BR><BR>By the way, I have long wondered about the exact pronunciation of non-Elvish names like Glóin, Éowyn, and Sméagol. Rohirric names are supposed to be pronounced like Old English, which makes that problem surmountable despite the obscurity, but I have no idea about the rest. I have only heard a recording of Tolkien's reading of the coney scene and he pronounces Sméagol "Smeegol". This is neither in line with Elvish or what the movie has teached me about Old English, assuming Old English has logical spelling rules, which I cannot of course be certain of.
User avatar
Nerdanel
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 4072
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2000 7:39 pm
Top

Postby Gungnir » Tue Jan 28, 2003 9:59 am

Well "Gloin" is from the Volsungsaga, as are the names of all the dwarves from "The Hobbit" so presumably any scholar of old Norse (or modern Icelandic?) can give us the correct pronunciation.<BR><BR>Alternatively, listen to Hugo Weaving's pronunciation - it's spot-on.
User avatar
Gungnir
Mariner

 
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 7:05 am
Location: Isle of Man
Top

Postby mreime » Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:58 am

Well, since you asked for it, Gugnir:<BR><BR>English simply hasn't got this particular "o" sound, so there's no english word I can use to exemplify it... "Groin" is way off, as is "Glow-in". "Gloo-in" may be closer, but only marginally so. Come to think of it, the very same Hugo Weaving's "Eeesillldooooooorr!" at the Crack of Doom is probably as close as you'll get.<BR><BR>The old-Norse "o" is similar to the German "u" (as in "d<b>u</b> hast" ), which will give some of you an idea of what it should sound like. I'm afraid most English/Americans haven't got much of a chance of ever saying it right (sorry!), it's the easiest way of hearing if someone's first language is English, even if they've lived in Norway for 20 years. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>So by Old-Norse standards, I'm afraid Elrond is not even close.
User avatar
mreime
Citizen of Imladris
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:46 am
Top

Postby TheLidlessEyes » Tue Jan 28, 2003 11:04 am

My good friend NZ Strider has the perfect answer to Sméagol:<BR><BR><i>The "éa" is a diphthong, a vowel sound that consists of two elements. <BR><BR>The first element in this one is the vowel-sound we hear in "bad." Pronounce "bad" very carefully against "bat" -- the vowel sound in "bad" should take a little longer to say than that it "bat." <BR><BR>The second element is the first "a" sound in "aha." <BR><BR>When pronouncing the diphthong hold the first element a bit longer than the second. When you pronounce it very carefully it will always sound like two distinct vowels: <BR><BR>SMÆ-a-gol <BR><BR>However, with practice you should be able to get the first sound to slide into the second without any distinct boundary between them: <BR><BR>SMÆA-gol -- two syllables, not three. <BR><BR>That is the hypercorrect way of pronouncing it. ("Sméagol" is an Anglo-Saxon word -- it means "seeker, investigator, one who pries" --, and what I've just given is the textbook answer for Old English pronunciation.) <BR>
User avatar
TheLidlessEyes
Mariner


 
Posts: 9760
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:47 am
Top

Postby draupnir » Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:05 pm

<i>except that Bernard Hill does use the right vowel when he says "simbelmyne."</i><BR><BR>First time I heard him say it, I almost did not believe my own ears. It sounded absolutely correct. By that I guess they should've managed Éowyn correctly too. <BR><BR>To continue the nitpicking:<BR>I believe there's only ONE correct pronunciation of the word "Rohan", namely when Christopher Lee does his speech from Orthanc. <BR>(Edit)<i>[...] the land will be stained with the blood of Rohan.</i><BR><BR><BR>And I agree wholeheartedly with mreime about the pronunciation of "Gloin". All English-speaking seem unable to say the long 'o' sound. It's probably a nightmare trying to decipher the names of Bilbo's companions in "The Hobbit".<BR><BR>
User avatar
draupnir
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 2961
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2002 3:58 pm
Top

Postby Searthor » Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:21 pm

You're right about the Smeagol thing but some people just don't get it.<BR>In my country it was subtitled Smeegol (in cyrilic). I found that ridiculous, esp. considering that it was [Smeagol] in the book translation (but some of the new guys don't even look at the book when they're translating the film and that's a crime).<BR>It's a paradox that we have different names for the characters in the books and in the films.<BR><BR>Another thing I don’t like is all the times Legolas is trying to say something loud and pathetic. It should sound as strong words but it comes up funny and nonelvish every time (my opinion of course) :<BR> “The Uruks turn North-East. They’re taking the hobbits to Isengard!” <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> and the thanks to Haldir in the SE of FORT<BR><BR>And of course when we talk about pronunciation don't forget to mention good old Pippin (esp. the way he says 'Treebeard'- hilarious)
User avatar
Searthor
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:44 am
Location: Burgas/Bulgaria
Top

Postby LadyMelia » Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:26 pm

Searthor: I totally agree. I think that some of the lines given to Legolas were forced and downright silly sounding. Not elvish at all. Not Orlando's fault, at all. He had to work with what he was given. That line : "The Uruks turn northeast. . ." just makes me laugh. I'm also peeved that they have him give sort of a running narration while they're chasing the Uruks, in which they give him a long line of obvious, dorky lines. sigh. oh well.<BR><BR>Nothing's as bad as Haldir's "Caras Galathon" in the FotR SE though. I suppose it's in bad taste to speak ill of the dead. <BR><BR>~LM
User avatar
LadyMelia
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 11:37 pm
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:18 pm

Lidless's Kiwi friend has given the straight scoop on "ea" in Old English.<BR><BR>Doesn't mean that this is how the name should be pronounced in the film -- the characters aren't speaking OE, they're speaking Modern English so they use ModE pronunciation. The Prof's own pronunciations are conclusive on this issue. (I have not heard the clip from The Hobbit. At least two people who have heard "Smee-gol." I would have expected a trisyllable but I can't argue.)<BR><BR>The English long "o" is actually a diphthong. Say it to yourself slowly and you will hear and feel the sound change to "oo" at the end. What comes before is a "pure O" as found in Latin and other languages -- you have to learn it if you are a choral singer. I don't know if the Norwegian "o" is the same.
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby Denethor » Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:56 pm

Gungnir, I must confess that I'm another one of those people who think that Elrond pronounces Glóin to rhyme with coin.<BR><BR>mreime: Thanks for giving us the exact details. Your comparison of the Old Norse "o" with the German "u" certainly helps give me a reasonable idea of how Glóin's name should be pronounced.<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
Denethor
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 4550
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 9:33 pm
Location: New Zealand
Top

Postby Vanahir » Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:08 am

So there we have it Gungir that rhymes with spounge-ear, well almost! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
Vanahir
Citizen of Imladris
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:59 am
Top

Postby Searthor » Thu Jan 30, 2003 12:05 am

LadyMelia: I'm sorry it wasn't quite clear what I posted. I did'n mean Haldir's line but Legolas's line to Haldir where he says that the Fellowship owes him much.
User avatar
Searthor
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:44 am
Location: Burgas/Bulgaria
Top

Postby Luinnenion » Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:49 am

I've heard an audio clip of Tolkien reading "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit", and it sounded to me like he pronounced it "SMEE-gol", which suprised me, since I'd always pronounced it "SMEE-AH-gol". There may have been some subtle diphthong action going on there, but I couldn't hear it.<BR><BR>As for "simbelmyne" vs. "Eowyn". I think they went the right way here. I imagine "EH-oh-win" is way the vast majority of those who have read LotR pronounce it. Plus, if they had everyone use the Old English "y", you would have had a lot of people coming out of the theater saying, "Yeah, I wonder if Aragorn is going to hook up with Eowuh, uh, Eoweh, um, that Eo-woman." <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> I mean, jeez, we've got supposedly intelligent reviewers writing things like "Gandolf", or worse, "Gandorf".<BR><BR>Beating on Craig Parker seems almost too easy at this point, and really I never really had a problem with him. But in the special edition it bugs me when he says "Caras Galadhon". He uses an unvoiced "th" instead of a voiced "th"!<BR><BR>Of course, when I find myself thinking about things like this, I recall the wise words of the Mystery Science Theater 3000 opening:<BR><BR><i>Just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show; I should really just relax."</i><BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR>
User avatar
Luinnenion
Ranger of the North
 
Posts: 1553
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:12 am
Top

Postby Searthor » Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:25 am

<i>Luinnenion: Just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show; I should really just relax."</i><BR><BR>You are sooo right. But I guess it's just what we're all doing. This going deep into details and even the criticism are actually the way we RELAX. I would feel so tense if there was no one to understand even the smallest whims about LOTR that come to our minds. Here's the place this truely happens.<BR><BR>I guess this talking in plural number is by itself quite droll (and LOTRy ). That was the most pretentious post I've had so far (not that they are so many <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>) )<BR><BR>What the ...?
User avatar
Searthor
Shield Bearer
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:44 am
Location: Burgas/Bulgaria
Top

Postby Prozac_Loki » Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:52 am

<i>But I guess it's just what we're all doing.</i><BR><BR>Not me... I came to this thread just to watch the sociopaths... sorta like visiting a zoo.<BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
User avatar
Prozac_Loki
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 648
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 3:24 pm
Top

Questions in regard to Gloin name procunciation

Postby ztengle » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:59 pm

mreime wrote:Well, since you asked for it, Gugnir:<BR><BR>English simply hasn't got this particular "o" sound, so there's no english word I can use to exemplify it... "Groin" is way off, as is "Glow-in". "Gloo-in" may be closer, but only marginally so. Come to think of it, the very same Hugo Weaving's "Eeesillldooooooorr!" at the Crack of Doom is probably as close as you'll get.<BR><BR>The old-Norse "o" is similar to the German "u" (as in "d<b>u</b> hast" ), which will give some of you an idea of what it should sound like. I'm afraid most English/Americans haven't got much of a chance of ever saying it right (sorry!), it's the easiest way of hearing if someone's first language is English, even if they've lived in Norway for 20 years. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>So by Old-Norse standards, I'm afraid Elrond is not even close.


It seems that you "Grugnir" have the most knowledge on the correct pronunciation of Gloin's name. However, my friends and I have been in debate for a while now and would appreciate it if you could lead me to a definitive piece of information that I could use as concrete evidence of the pronunciation of the way you believe Gloin's name should be pronounced. Though I know it is a small bit of conjecture to be discussing I do wish to find his correct sounding. I study language pronunciation in German, French, English, and Italian and am familiar with the phonetic alphabet and if you could use the symbols from that I would greatly appreciate it. If I am interpreting your opinion correctly, I believe you are saying the pronunciation of the name Gloin to be [glu:In] in the phonetic alphabet.

ztengle
ztengle
Petitioner to the Council
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:52 pm
Top

Re: Questions in regard to Gloin name procunciation

Postby Gungnir » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:03 am

ztengle wrote:It seems that you "Grugnir" have the most knowledge on the correct pronunciation of Gloin's name. However, my friends and I have been in debate for a while now and would appreciate it if you could lead me to a definitive piece of information that I could use as concrete evidence of the pronunciation of the way you believe Gloin's name should be pronounced. Though I know it is a small bit of conjecture to be discussing I do wish to find his correct sounding. I study language pronunciation in German, French, English, and Italian and am familiar with the phonetic alphabet and if you could use the symbols from that I would greatly appreciate it. If I am interpreting your opinion correctly, I believe you are saying the pronunciation of the name Gloin to be [glu:In] in the phonetic alphabet.

ztengle



I'm not sure that 'Grugnir' bloke is still around here - the original post was seven years ago! ;) But maybe I can help.

There was a Danish player for Liverpool FC called Jan Molby who's surname was pronounced 'Muuhrlbu' - at least that is the closest I can get in writing. Being the pedant that I am I made sure that I pronounced it properly (or as properly as I could), even when everyone else in England pronounced it 'Moll-bee'.

Now, from Mrieme's reply it would appear that the 'u' in Isildur is the same sort of sound as the 'o' in Molby, the German 'U'. So, from this I would imagine the old norse 'o' is similar to the modern Danish 'o' and, therefore 'Gloin' should be pronounced 'Gluuhr-in'. I would imagine someone from Newcastle would be able to do it full justice but most native English speakers would struggle.

What the IPL notation is for that - well I haven't the foggiest, that stuff is all greek to me.
User avatar
Gungnir
Mariner

 
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 7:05 am
Location: Isle of Man
Top

Postby truehobbit » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:16 pm

ztengle, I think that (i.e. [glu: ɪn]) is what he is saying. :)

(Gugnir, I believe the h and r in your visual transcription are there for lengthening purposes rather than to represent actual sound, is that correct?)

I have no idea whether it's correct that 'o' is pronounced [u:] in old Norse, though.
User avatar
truehobbit
Mariner


 
Posts: 9282
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 5:01 pm
Location: in love
Top


Return to Movies and Media: Tolkien

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests