Luinnenion
Ranger of the North
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Last Visited: 08 Aug 2009
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Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:55 pm |
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In order to get the discussion moving, I'm writing the summary for Chapter 18, and Novice will come up with the study questions. For this summary, I recommend frequently consulting the map in the Silmarillion, or even better, The Atlas of Middle-earth in order to follow the flow of the battle. There are a lot of place names mentioned.
February Study Session: Summary
Morgoth unleashes the Dagor Bragollach and overthrows the Elves besieging him in Angband. The High King Fingolfin challenges Morgoth to single combat and is slain. Morgoth takes control of all Beleriand except for Hithlum and Doriath, which is protected by the Girdle of Melian.
Chapter 18: Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
The Dagor Bragollach
With the coming of Men Fingolfin feels the time is ripe to attack Morgoth, but the Noldor feel secure and safe in the peace, and only Angrod and Aegnor, who live near Thangorodrim, support him. Fingolfin decides against attack.
But in the 455th year since Fingolfin's coming to Middle-earth, Morgoth unleashes a long prepared force. On a cold winter's night he unleashes torrents of lava and flame on Ard-galen, and fills the air with a poisonous fumes, and the land perishes, becoming Anfauglith, the Gasping Dust. This begins the Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame.
Glaurung, at the height of his power, and a train of Balrogs, and unimagined multitudes of orcs issue forth from Angband, and the Siege is overthrown. Doriath, Nargothrond, and Ossiriand become islands of refuge. Aegnor and Angrod are slain, and the sons of Finarfin take heavy loss. Also slain is Bregolad, lord of the house of Beor. But his brother, Barahir, remains fighting in the Pass of Sirion. Finrod Felagund hastens from Nargothrond with a force of his people, but is cut off from the main force with a small company in the Fen of Serech. Barahir leads the bravest of his men and rescues Finrod with great loss. Felagund give Barahir his ring, and swears an oath of abiding friendship and aid in need to Barahir and all his kin. With the fall of Bregolad, Barahir is now lord of the house of Beor, and returns with his men to their homes in Dorthonion, but his people have all fled.
Meanwhile, Fingolfin and Fingon cannot come to the aid of the people of Finarfin. They are driven back to the Ered Wethrin, and barely defend these against the orcs. Hador the Goldenhaired, son of Marach, falls fighting a rearguard action, along with his son Gundor. Galdor the Tall takes over as lord of his father's people. By the valor of the Elves and the Men Hithlum remains unconquered, but it is cut off from the rest of Beleriand.
The sons of Feanor are badly beaten, although they deal great loss to their foes. Celegorm and Curufin are defeated, and they and their people flee to Nargothrond. Maedhros fights with "surpassing valour", and rallies his people so that the fortress on the Hill of Himring cannot be taken. The remaining Elves and Men of Dorthonion rally there, and they close again the Pass of Aglon. But further east, Glaurung and Orcs overwhelm the people of Feanor at Maglor's Gap, and take the fortress on the slopes of Mount Rerir. They ravage Thargelion, Lake Helevorn and the lands of Caranthir. Maglor joins Maedhros at Himring, while Caranthir goes south to Amrod and Amras. They maintain a watch at Amon Ereb, and the Orcs do not penetrate into Ossiriand.
The Fall of Fingolfin
Fingolfin hears the news of the defeat of Feanor's sons and the destruction of Dorthonion, and believes it is the end of the Noldor. In a wrath of despair and grief, he rides alone from Hithlum to Angband, and his rage makes all flee before him. He arrives at the gates of Angband, sounds his horn, and taunts Morgoth to face him in single combat. Morgoth comes forth, somewhat reluctantly, in black armor and a high crown, armed with Grond, his mace. He fights with Fingolfin, and takes seven wounds due to the quickness and agility of the Elven king. But at last Fingolfin tires, and Morgoth bears his shield down on him. Three times he is crushed to his knees, but three times he rises again. But at last he stumbles in the pitted and ravaged ground, and Morgoth crushes him with a mighty foot. With a last stroke, Fingolfin hews at Morgoth's foot, causing him to be ever lame afterwards. Fingolfin dies, and Morgoth takes the body and breaks it, but Thorondor comes down and grabs the body before Morgoth can throw it to his wolves. Thorondor's talons scratch Morgoth's face, forever scarring him. The seven wounds dealt to Morgoth by Fingolfin never fully heal, and he carries their pain with him at all times. Thorondor takes Fingolfin's body to a high peak overlooking Gondolin, and Turgon builds a cairn for his father.
The Aftermath
The Dagor Bragollach is held by the Elves to have ended when the onslaught of Morgoth let up in the spring. Barahir and his men fight a long retreat, giving up Dorthonion "foot by foot". Morgoth makes the forests become places of such fear and horror that even Orcs will not go in if they can help it, and the forests become known as Taur-nu-Fuin; the Forest under Nightshade. Emeldir, Barahir's wife, leads the rest of his people south, and some go among the Haladin at Brethil, and others go to Galdor's people in Dor-lomin. Among these are the granddaughters of Bregolad: Rian daughter of Belegund, and Morwen Eledthwen daughter of Baragund. The men that remain with Barahir are hunted down one by one, until only a band of 13 outlaws remain: Barahir, his son Beren, his nephews Belegund and Baragund, and nine faithful servants. These are Radhruin, Daruin, Dagnir, Ragnor, Gildor, Gorlim (the unhappy), Arthad, Urthel, and Hathaldir the young. They sleep under the sky and stars, forever hunted by the forces of Morgoth, unable to escape and unwilling to surrender.
Orodreth and his people guard the Sirion for two years after the Bragollach, but after the fall of Fingolfin Sauron attacks Minas Tirith and drives its defenders away with a cloud of fear. Orodreth goes to his brother Finrod in Nargothrond. The isle of Tol Sirion becomes Tol-in-Gaurhoth; the Isle of Werewolves. Morgoth continues to fight and harry the people of Hithlum while his Orcs wander free over Beleriand, taking captives back to Angband when possible. He uses spies to sow discord among the Elves. The Men he tries to sway to his side with fair speech, but the Three Houses of the Edain will not listen to him. The Swarthy Men enter Beleriand at this time. Their two chieftains, Bor and Ulfang, make alliance with Maedhros, but this is to Morgoth's plan.
The People of Haleth had good relations with the Sindar of Doriath, and when the Orcs sweep south, Halmir lord of the Haladin and Beleg Strongbow destroy an Orc legion. At this battle were Hurin and Huor, the sons of Galdor, who were being fostered in Brethil by their uncle Haldir, as was the custom of the Edain. Huor at this time was but thirteen years old. Their company gets cut off during the battle, but Ulmo comes to their aid, creating a mist that lets them escape. They wander lost, but are spotted by Thorondor who sends two eagles to help them. The eagles take the brothers to Gondolin. Turgon welcomes them, and they live in Gondolin for nearly a year, learning much from the Elves. Then they ask Turgon for leave to return to their land. Turgon is reluctant to let them go, but they convince him that they do not know the way, and he agrees to let the eagles fly them out of Gondolin. Maeglin somewhat bitterly suggests they are very lucky to be allowed to leave, and in response the brothers swear oaths not to reveal anything they know of the Elves. They return to their people, who marvel at their return, and although the brothers will not reveal where they were, Galdor and others can guess.
Turgon begins sending out ships to try and find Valinor, but no one succeeds, and only few return. Morgoth begins sending out more spies to find the locations of Nargothrond and Turgon's hidden realm, but begins to pull back his Orc hosts, feeling he doesn't yet have the strength to win a final battle. The Noldor begin to take back some of their land, little by little.
Seven years after the Bragollach, Morgoth sends a renewed assault against Hithlum. Galdor dies near where his own father died defending Hithlum. Hurin is now a great captain, and holds the Ered Wethrin from many hosts of Orcs. Fingon is hard pressed, but Cirdan comes to his aid with a host of ships that sail up the Firth of Drengist. The orcs are completely routed.
And so, seven years after the Bragollach, the Elves have halted their retreat and the south at least has some peace, while Morgoth consolidates his power over the North.
It's all yours, Novice!
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miles2go
Shield Bearer
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 08 Apr 2006
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:59 pm |
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Lunnenion,
Thank you for the great summary. While we are waiting for Novice's study questions I just have a few of observations.
I found this chapter the most difficult one so far because of all the names, places and the switching back and forth between Men and Elves. I kept flipping to the genealogical maps in the back to try and figure out who was related to whom, how they fit in to the story as a whole, and whether they were Men or Elves.
I did think the "volcano" scene was very eloquently drawn, and the coming forth of the dragons and Balrog's really fired my imagination.
I love the character of Fingolfin. But I wonder--was he being heroic or foolish? I was reminded of Feanor going to take his revenge on Morgoth for the death of his father. It seems though that Fingolfin fared somewhat better. They both died, but Fingolfin at least did some damage.
The eagles always come to the rescue. I was so touched by the scene of Thorondor taking Fingolfin's body back to be peacefully laid to rest.
I felt bad for Turgon, being so poorly rewarded for his kindness to Hurin and Huor. The boys meant to keep their promise, too, which makes it that much sadder. I've always imagined Gondolin as a sort of Shangri-La, a secret paradise hidden in the mountains. I hate to think of it disappearing.
I am waiting eagerly for Novice's study questions. I can really use some direction in pulling my thoughts together on this chapter. Even if it has to spill over into next month, I would still appreciate any thoughts you guys have to share.
Thanks,
Miles
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-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:33 am |
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Congratulations Luinnenion on a concise summary: this was a very eventful chapter!
miles2go: I love the character of Fingolfin. But I wonder--was he being heroic or foolish? I was reminded of Feanor going to take his revenge on Morgoth for the death of his father.
It is interesting to contrast these two episodes. Fëanor is described as fey, a state best characterised as a temporary insanity, heedless of consequences, aware of his own impending death but pressing on regardless. Ignorant of the true strength of Morgoth's defences, he is so elated by his defeat of the Orc army that he is lured into the Balrog ambush and mortally wounded. Fingolfin, on the other hand, is carried away by wrath and despair, riding in a great madness of rage. So both are irrational, 'heroic' in the sense of 'doing the stupid things heroes do'  , and foolish, in that their lives could have been better spent in the struggle against Morgoth.
It is surprising that Morgoth is 'shamed' into single combat with Fingolfin.
That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of Fingolfin's horn, and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband; and Fingolfin named Morgoth craven, and lord of slaves. Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground.
While the Captains of Morgoth gathered before his throne included Sauron and Gothmog and the other Balrogs, it appears that by this time, Morgoth was so diminished in his innate power that he cared what these lieutenants thought. Perhaps he felt that they would desert him or rebel if he did not respond to this challenge, whereas if he had been in his full might (as he was before the death of the Two Trees), he would not have been troubled by his underlings' opinions.
As to why alone of the Valar [Morgoth] knew fear, see Death of the Maiar: Melian, Sauron, Saruman and why Eru raised Gandalf the White. for a discussion on this.
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Scattergold
Citizen of Imladris
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Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:57 am |
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Great to see you guys back in action!! I very much look forward to reading this discussion (and maybe if I'm feeling really adventerous, make an attempt at throwing in my 2cents!)
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Novice
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:38 pm |
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You have my deep gratitude, Luinnenion for saving my bacon...I'll resist boring your all with my repeated apologies and excuses.
I did put together some thoughts--not really study guides--but they are neatly typed up at home and I'm currently in the office. I'll review them and post over the weekend.
But discussion shouldn't wait for my measly contribution!
One very brief comment: why did Morgoth's wounds never heal? Is this metaphorical?
That a Vala incarnate could be permanently damaged in this way is quite extraordinary, and possibly reflects upon why he feared to meet Fingolfin in the first place. Rom's link to the Books thread is pertinent to this, but this whole episode--Morgoth's fear, his wounding and permanent scarring--is definitive of his now reduced nature.
Anyway...I'll post the rest from home.
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Parmamaite
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:16 am |
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This reminds me of Sauron. Isildur cut a finger from his hand, shortly thereafter the body of Sauron perished. But when he rebuilds his body in the next age, his finger is still missing!
Couldn't the Ainur heal at all? Or was it just the evil ones who lost that ability?
Perhaps the reason is that the Ainur isn't 'organic', they don't grow and they don't age, so it makes sense that they can't heal either.
Of course they would be able to 'build' a new unscathed body, only Morgoth couldn't do that since he was bound to his body. - That doesn't explain the missing finger of Sauron, but we can discuss that when we get to LotR 
Eagerly awaiting your input Novice.
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Parmamaite
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Fri Mar 7, 2003 1:58 am |
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I fear that this discussion may suffer a premature death. So allthough I'm a newbie in this forum I will try to revive this thread. And Novice, don't hesitate to post your thoughts, I do not wish to infringe on your territory, this is just intended to be 'for lack of better'
If some of these observations/questions have been discussed in earlier threads please ignore them.
Concerning Men:
Men are subjects of Elves. The lords of the edain are vassals to the elven kings. This might be natural, since the elves (especially the Noldor) are more civilized, and have superior technology, basically Elves are teachers and Men are students. Still the relationship between the races is tilted, and lords like Hador and Barahir (and later Húrin) see no problem in risking their life and their people in order to rescue an elf-king. Finrod is the only one of the Eldar who treats the two races as equals.
Morgoth could - through torture - chain the will of Elves to himself, but the edain were more resistant: 'few of the men of the Three Houses of the Edain would give ear to him, not even were they brought to the torment of Angband.' It's good to be reminded that the elves aren't superior in everything!
'Barahir was now by right lord of the house of Bëor,' Why? Shouldn't it be Baragund son of Bregolas? AFAIR this is the only example among the edain of the oldest son not inheriting the title of his father.
Maeglin 'had no love for any of the kindred of Men;' Puzzling, since he never has met humans before. But perhaps it's a foresight: Huor is the father of his rival and bane Tuor.
Concerning fear:
'the Orcs fled before his (Maedhros')face; for since his torment upon Thangorodrim his spirit burned like a white fire within, and he was as one that returns from the dead.' We see some of the same effect with Fingolfins ride to Angband: 'all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come ...... his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar'. The idea that orcs run in fear, not because they are afraid of the weapons of their enemy, but because of their face or eyes. Perhaps it is the majesty of Iluvatar that sometimes shines through in his children?
As with Fëanor the body of Fingolfin is rescued, it seems very important that the enemy doesn't defile the body, and as we will see numerous examples of later 'No Orc dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb,'
It does make the orcs seem less evil that they are capable of feeling awe. Or is it just fear? Anyway, they think: "we better not get near that grave, something nasty might happen." And that does IMHO imply that deep down they know something about good and evil.
'he sounded his horn, and smote upon the brazen doors,' no question but compare with this from 'Of the Return of the Noldor' 'Then the Elves (of Fingolfin) smote upon the gates of Angband, and the challenge of their trumpets shook the towers of Thangorodrim;' The Sil is packed with such anticipations of later events.
Concerning the sons of Fëanor:
'most of the Noldor were content with things as they were', What about the oath of Fëanor? How could the sons of Fëanor be 'content' as long as Morgoth had the silmarils? The strength of the Oath seem to change in time, sometimes it is dormant and at other times it compels the Fëanorians to specific actions, how can this be?
Concerning werewolves:
What where the werewolves of Sauron?, are they simply a bigger and nastier species of wolves, are they lesser maiar, or are they 'classic' werewolves? 'were' is an OE term for 'man'.
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smIsle
Rider of the Mark
Alliance: Grey Havens
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Location: Oregon
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Posted: Fri Mar 7, 2003 6:18 pm |
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Parmamaitë, Thanks for starting this up I've been too busy to even read the chapter
And so- some random replies
Morgoth could - through torture - chain the will of Elves to himself, but the edain were more resistant:
Maybe that was because Morgoth could torture Elves "forever" and they would never die, but have to endure- Whereas Men will die eventually, and could have had that in the back of their mind. It is nice though to see men do something better
How could the sons of Fëanor be 'content' as long as Morgoth had the silmarils?
Their father had just died as a result of his 'fey' assault against Angband. I think they were exercising caution... biding their time.
Let me come back to the orcs and werewolves when I have more time- they have interesting possibilities.
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Elenhild
Petitioner to the Council
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Posted: Sat Mar 8, 2003 12:02 pm |
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To Rómestámo - greetings!
It is interesting to contrast these two episodes. Fëanor is described as fey, a state best characterised as a temporary insanity, heedless of consequences, aware of his own impending death but pressing on regardless. Ignorant of the true strength of Morgoth's defences, he is so elated by his defeat of the Orc army that he is lured into the Balrog ambush and mortally wounded. Fingolfin, on the other hand, is carried away by wrath and despair, riding in a great madness of rage. So both are irrational, 'heroic' in the sense of 'doing the stupid things heroes do' , and foolish, in that their lives could have been better spent in the struggle against Morgoth.
"Fey", an Engilsh analog of Old Norsk "feigr", means "he who possesses by madness of close death". In this state of mind he is moving to the death by his own doings.
On other side, Fingolfin was moved not only wrath and despair.
It is an ancient pattern of the doings by the "true king". The true king must defence his people by life or death. Morgoth is unholy, untrue king, mockingly named himself this title. Fingolfin is true king of the Noldor, and his death (as death every elven-king in Mortal Lands) is inescapable. It is forfeit for the Marring of Arda and the rebellion of the Noldor against Valar. This rebellion and division among Noldor make king's power weaker.
So, to prove unholiness and unrighteousness of Morgoth's power, the true King must hurt him. And Fingolfin did it.
I think that Tolkien laid in foundation of this episode mythological idea of King's Truth (as Irelansic fir flatemon). This idea is universal one.
P.S. Please, forgive my odd English - I'm not native-speaker and learned it by books.
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miles2go
Shield Bearer
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Posted: Sun Mar 9, 2003 8:53 am |
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Elenhild,
Welcome from one relatively new to the message boards! Your English is very good, so do not hesitate to keep on posting.
Based on what you said of true kings and heroism, do you see a comparison between Fingolfin and Beowulf? I had not thought of it until I read your post, and certainly Fingolfin is more recklessly impassioned than Beowulf, and yet perhaps there are useful similarities.
I have to put more thought to it. What do you think?
Miles
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Falborn
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Posted: Sun Mar 9, 2003 3:03 pm |
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I am struck that the defeat of the Noldor in the Dagor Bragollach does not come about because of the workings of the Oath or any failing of the Elves. The Dagor Bragollacht is a fulfillment of the warning given to the Exiles by the Valar that their war against Morgoth had no final hope without their aid - without the help of the Valar.
Fingolphin's charge is the courage of the Noldor in its essential form. Fighting evil even without hope of victory. I think the difference between Fingolphin and Feanor is significant. IMO, Feanor was not in dispair when he charged, his pride had become so clear - pure even - that he believed he could defeat a Vala, become one himself. He was mortally wounded, put in his place, by balrogs and only then was he given the foreknowledge that the war of the Noldor against Morgoth was hopeless. Fingolphin knew it was hopeless, charged and challenged despite the knowledge of certain defeat.
Fingolphins death feels courageous and wholehearted. Feanor's seems prideful - dismissive of his people who would surely need him.
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smIsle
Rider of the Mark
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Posted: Sun Mar 9, 2003 3:59 pm |
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Falborn, That's it- exactly as I see it.
Fighting on, even though the end result will be faliure. Fighting to put off the end for a little longer. Putting others before his own life. That is what made many heros great.
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Elenhild
Petitioner to the Council
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Posted: Sun Mar 9, 2003 4:18 pm |
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Your English is very good, so do not hesitate to keep on posting.
Thank you for your courtesy 
Based on what you said of true kings and heroism, do you see a comparison between Fingolfin and Beowulf?
Yes, I see. When Beowulf comes in the dragon's lair, he means not only to kill the monster, he want to bring to his people glory and the dragon's gold as part of this glory. Beowulf is true king, and he must to repair the unworthy theft of the slave who steal the golden goblet from the dragon.
And in the fight with Grendel, too. Beowulf in this fight is King's champion, not a King himself. But he is true hero against unholy and unworthy monster, demon, murderer of men. It's the analogy with Fingolfin.
I had not thought of it until I read your post, and certainly Fingolfin is more recklessly impassioned than Beowulf, and yet perhaps there are useful similarities.
I agree with you, Miles.
I have to put more thought to it. What do you think?
O, I have more thoughts then English words 
In my inner vision Fingolfin is an ideal King for Exiles - as is his grandson Gil-galad. He has no stain except his valiance and faithfulness.
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smIsle
Rider of the Mark
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Posted: Sun Mar 9, 2003 4:37 pm |
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Tolkien has some very interesting ideas in his "The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth" It's been a while since I've read it, so I can't really give specifics. But I think you would enjoy it (of course you could have already read it)
Elenhild, If you hadn't said anything I would never have guessed english wasn't your first language.
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Twiggyleaf
Rider of the Mark
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Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:36 pm |
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Alas, Poor Fingolfin. I knew him well.
I always admired Fingolfin's last stand against Morgoth and yet wondered at the fact that it seemed Morgoth was 'afraid' or at least loath to meet Fingolfin in battle. I dont think the outcome could have been any different because Mandos had earlier said that for any of the Eldar or Edain to have fought against a Vala would have availed them naught.
So it seems to me that there was never any chance of Fingolfin of winning this battle. I think the reason why Morgoth was so loathe to meet the challenge was because he may have had some preminition in the Song of the Ainur of the wounds he would receive - wounds that would trouble him to the end of his days.
I wonder how it was exactly that he was put in a position where he felt he had to prove himself. Let us consider that he refused the challenge. Would any of his servants been in any position to ridicule him? Would he have lost any power over them?
Nonethelss, the battle of Fingolfin and Morgoth will surely be one of the climactic highlights of the movie version of The Silmarillion.
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Mahima
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:57 am |
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Hi Twiggy, hows Taiwan?
Would any of his servants been in any position to ridicule him? Would he have lost any power over them?
I don't think any one of his servants would have ridiculed him on his face, but behind his back, am sure the story would have been different. Every leader, even Morgoth, needs to prove from time to time that he is THE leader and his power and authority cannot be questioned by anyone. Especially a leader whose entire basis of leadership is on power and fear, not wisdom or respect, like Manwe.
In such a situation, choosing not to answer an outright challenge like Fingolfin's to Morgoth, is a slap in the face and a precursor of times to come when the leader will get overthrown, possibly by someone from his own ranks, someone like Sauron.
This of course, does not answer the question as to why Morgoth was loath to meet Fingolfin's challenge. A premonition, might be the answer, as Twiggy said, but I feel one of the reasons could be Morgoth's attachment to his body form, and the fact that he had since so long not gone to war openly. He had been depending on his forces for ages now, and it might be that he felt insecure going without them, openly. Though, by circular thought, we come back to the question of why must a Vala like Morgoth feel insecure at all??
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Eonwe_herald_of_Manwe
Citizen of Imladris
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 6:31 am |
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hi all guys! it's been a long time since i've posted last time, and i used to write under the name of mighty-ecthelion, if someone remembers me. i've been pretty busy in the last months, so i didn't have the time to read carefully what you were writing and reply sth. (btw, i've just graduated myself with a final thesis written over LOTR, if you're intersted).
ive just read
"So both are irrational, 'heroic' in the sense of 'doing the stupid things heroes do' , and foolish, in that their lives could have been better spent in the struggle against Morgoth"
i don't think Fingolfin was fool. he simply was a king who was standing in front of the destruction of his people. his action was not rational, of course, and although Morgoth had fear offighting with him, in the end Fingolfin just worsened the cause of all the Free Peoples. but i don't think that a comparison between him and Feanor can stand. Fingolfin had been made mad by wrath and pain, Feanor by greed and arrogance. what do you think?
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miles2go
Shield Bearer
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 08 Apr 2006
Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 316
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 11:24 am |
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I remember you, mighty-ecthelion/Eonwe_herald_of_Manwe. Congratulations on your thesis. What was your topic?
Feanor was also motivated by his anger over the murder of his father. Still, it was a personal, self-centered battle for him, more so than Fingolfin who was grief-stricken over the loss to his people.
Welcome back,
Miles
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Eonwe_herald_of_Manwe
Citizen of Imladris
Alliance: Valinor
Last Visited: 14 Nov 2003
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 30
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2003 9:46 am |
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hi Miles2go! my thesis was about the translation of LOTR in italian, and all the problems that deal with the translation, expecially the ones concerning the translation of Westron in all its varieties according to each race and culture.
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Twiggyleaf
Rider of the Mark
Alliance: Fangorn
Last Visited: 10 Mar 2005
Joined: 12 Jun 2002
Posts: 835
Location: Glasgow
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:31 am |
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Interesting topic, Eonwe - I guess you probably speak Italian. Hi Mahima, Taiwan is fine. It seems pretty hot already,k even though it is just coming out of winter. I gather I'll be having a right sweatbath in the summer.
I guess that physical form thing could be another contributing factor.
See you all later.
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Eonwe_herald_of_Manwe
Citizen of Imladris
Alliance: Valinor
Last Visited: 14 Nov 2003
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 30
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Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 am |
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well, you're right. i'm italian. and yes, it's an interesting topic, even though it ain't the topic of this tread. i've written 150 pages, but i've estimated that i could have written at least 600, and i'm working on it, beside my postgraduate studies, now...
coming back to this tread, what do you think guys about Finrod? just to know, let me some time and i'll come back with my thoughts...
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greenleafwood
Ranger of the North
Alliance: House of Elrond
Last Visited: 01 Oct 2009
Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 1882
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Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 1:42 pm |
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hello everyone! I haven't been around for ages, and I have been too busy for any reading, and therefore little to contribute to any worthy thread around here.
random thoughts:
I enjoyed reading about Fingolfin here. He was a courageous and valiant leader. He would have suffered much more in repentance had he merely stood by and attempted nothing to lessen Morgoth's power. Twiggyleaf's remarks about Fingolfin having to prove himself as a leader is logical. But no one would have ridiculed him if he hadn't.
My knowledge and admiration for Finrod increased after I read Morgoth's Ring. Wise, slow to anger, he was also tolerant and open-minded, especially in his relationship with Men.
greenleaf
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Twiggyleaf
Rider of the Mark
Alliance: Fangorn
Last Visited: 10 Mar 2005
Joined: 12 Jun 2002
Posts: 835
Location: Glasgow
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Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 12:57 am |
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Actually, Greenleafwood, I was referring to Morgoth having to prove himself.
the point being that as Supreme dark Vala and overlord of all the evil 'spirits' of Beleriand, did he really have to meet fingolfin's challenge.
Who would have dared or been able to usurp him?
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Falborn
Shield Bearer
Alliance: Stewards of Gondor
Last Visited: 05 Dec 2003
Joined: 30 Mar 2002
Posts: 395
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Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 7:41 am |
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No one knows Morgoth's motivation for going out to fight and kill Fingolphin. The Silmarillion chronicler may be reflecting tradition, but it is a tradition that puts Morgoth into the most contemptable light. Malice is a likely motive.
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smIsle
Rider of the Mark
Alliance: Grey Havens
Last Visited: 12 Nov 2006
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 795
Location: Oregon
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Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 9:28 pm |
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the point being that as Supreme dark Vala and overlord of all the evil 'spirits' of Beleriand, did he really have to meet fingolfin's challenge. Who would have dared or been able to usurp him?
Maybe it had more to do with his[Morgoth's] minions opinion- Didn't the sil say that Fingolfin's challenge penetrated to the very deepest parts of Morgoth's stronghold? They would be more "willing to serve a lord who does not shrink from fighting a mere elf. They might not have been in the position to rebel- but might fight a little less enthusiastically in his wars.
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miles2go
Shield Bearer
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 08 Apr 2006
Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 316
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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 2:35 pm |
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smIsle,
Great Shadowfax poem. Did you write it?
Did Morgoth have to come out and meet Fingolfin's challenge? Sure he did, for a lot of reasons.
One, Fingolfin was not going to be denied. I have no doubt that if Morgoth hadn't come out, Fingolfin would have gone in after him. In the face of Fingolfin's anger, Morgoth's guard might have given way.
Two, it is certainly more prideful to answer a challenge than to ignore it. Morgoth wouldn't want to look like a coward or indicate that he wasn't up to the fight.
Third, if he suspected that he would be injured in this fight with Fingolfin, he certainly wouldn't want anyone else to know that. It would have been a weak spot, like a missing scale on a dragon's belly, which anyone could exploit. He wouldn't want anyone to know that he could be injured.
On another note, I would still like to know what you guys think about the sad situation of Huor and Huron and the discovery of Gondolin. Why did it happen that they did not betray him directly, but others guessed what had happen? What was the point of doing it that way?
Miles
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smIsle
Rider of the Mark
Alliance: Grey Havens
Last Visited: 12 Nov 2006
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 795
Location: Oregon
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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:21 pm |
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Miles- Yep, I wrote it. I wanted something about Shadowfax to go with my sig pic, and well... out it came
It's interesting to note- Maeglin was the one who was bugging them for oaths. I don't know if Turgon would have required them to make oaths of silence as to where they had been.
What was the point? It is one thing to know they had been to Gondolin and quite another to find out where Gondolin is. Hurin never did tell Morgoth where Gondolin was until much later when he was crying aloud to Turgon in the wilderness, and was overheard. IMO Maeglin's treachery was the main reason Gondolin was finally taken- not Huirn.
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Eowyn7
Petitioner to the Council
Alliance: Rohan
Last Visited: 02 Aug 2003
Joined: 21 Mar 2003
Posts: 17
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Posted: Tue Apr 1, 2003 6:56 am |
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Well, too many things to say about this chapter:
1- the real “action” start here. ‘Till here, Morgoth didn’t win any real battle and the war didn’t envolved to all.
2- This is a important moment ‘cause too many other stories start here. We can see what’s gonna happen later, is like a “transition” for other stories that we already know. The movemnts along the middel Earth, the alliances, and those things.
3- Personaly I like Fingolfin too. HE’s really brave and he represents the Noldor’s importance, the way they can resist and fight Morgoth.
He had to come out and fight 'cause fingolin really looked more powerful than himself. Even when he was smaller, it was a big important fight for Morgoth.
And specially Maedhros. He’s a Fëanor’s son and still so opend mind.
well, I'll be thinking...
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Eowyn7
Petitioner to the Council
Alliance: Rohan
Last Visited: 02 Aug 2003
Joined: 21 Mar 2003
Posts: 17
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Posted: Tue Apr 1, 2003 10:32 am |
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ok, i'm back!
About Fingolfin: I have readen some posts and been thinking...
I really think fingolfin was more powerfull than morgoth in thet fight:
-he made the orcs feel scared. well, I don't know if that bright is an Ilúvatar sign or what, but I remeber the History said about Joan of Arc that she could made a comlete army go away just with her presence. Maybe is a sign of grace and corage. You know, what happen in the battle: there's a magic about that moment.
- Fingolfin's body is recued 'cause in some cultures destroy the body means a comlete victory. That happens in all the old legends and stories, is in the literature too. And that point gives the victory to fingolfin in some way.
-NAd something else: Fingolfin hurts Morgoth 7 times and Morgoth hurt him only 3. That means something too.
well, my brains are tired now
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Eowyn7
Petitioner to the Council
Alliance: Rohan
Last Visited: 02 Aug 2003
Joined: 21 Mar 2003
Posts: 17
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Posted: Tue Apr 1, 2003 10:36 am |
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ok, i'm back!
About Fingolfin: I have readen some posts and been thinking...
I really think fingolfin was more powerfull than morgoth in thet fight:
-he made the orcs feel scared. well, I don't know if that bright is an Ilúvatar sign or what, but I remeber the History said about Joan of Arc that she could made a comlete army go away just with her presence. Maybe is a sign of grace and corage. You know, what happen in the battle: there's a magic about that moment.
- Fingolfin's body is recued 'cause in some cultures destroy the body means a comlete victory. That happens in all the old legends and stories, is in the literature too. And that point gives the victory to fingolfin in some way.
-NAd something else: Fingolfin hurts Morgoth 7 times and Morgoth hurt him only 3. That means something too.
well, my brains are tired now
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