Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:41 am |
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I posted this in the purist/revisionist revisited thread, but thought it might be worthy of separate debate:
A lot of people seem to have a problem with the decision of the entmoot. This is not a change to Treebeards character or the other ents. It is only a change to the amount of information that the ents possess. In the film, they don't have enough evidence to condemn Saruman, whereas in the book they do. Essentially the same thing happens in book and film: knowledge of Sarumans deforestation prompts the ents into action, but in the movie this knowledge comes to the ents after the entmoot. This is a trivial change, the only way it diminishes the ents is that they are not quite as aware of their environment as in the book, but then it *is* right on their far borders anyway (we are shown Treebeard is in touch with the trees in the vicinity). In return for that minor dimishment, we get a far more cinematic entmoot (arriving at the right decision first time is not as interesting or dramatically compelling), and we get great character development for Merry and Pippin, who are far more important characters, but who would be relatively passive players otherwise. Treebeard's surprise at seeing the deforestation is what shows that the entmoot's decision was based on incomplete information, and that it should not be used to cast the ents in a bad light. Infact it helps, by emphasizing how passive the ents are unless shown they are seriously under threat. All in all, a great piece of adapting.
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Hama
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:00 am |
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For some reason, this reminds me of something Richard Dawkins once said about Douglas Adams.
"To illustrate the vain conceit that the universe must be somehow pre-ordained for us, because we are so well-suited to live in it, he [Adams] mimed a wonderfully funny imitation of a puddle of water, fitting itself snugly into a depression in the ground, the depression uncannily being exactly the same shape as the puddle."
-- Richard Dawkins, in "Lament for Douglas" (14 May 2001)
Hama.
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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:05 am |
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Is that it? Is that all you can conjur Hama-man?
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Queen_Beruthiel
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:16 am |
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we get great character development for Merry and Pippin, who are far more important characters, but who would be relatively passive players otherwise.
I re-read the "Uruk-hai" chapter last night (no, I haven't got a life). There is tons of great stuff there that could have been used in the film - details of orc organisation, the rivalry between the Mordor and Isengard orcs demonstrating Saruman's real intentions, Merry & Pippin's shrewd reading of Grishnakh's intentions and their bold seizing of the initiative in that situation. That was a great opportunity let slip. Instead we got a food fight followed by a set-up that made Treebeard look as if he knew less than Pippin.
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LilyRoseTook
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:17 am |
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I never quite looked at it that way, Iavas. I always thought that the change was made simply for a more dramatic effect and I had always thought that it was kind of silly. Now, I have something else to think about. It may not change my opinion, but it is still worth thinking about.
~LilyRose~
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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:30 am |
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QB, I think it's far better to have M&P's character development tied to something more significant than the orcs. It's about accomplashing more than one thing at once, and adding a complicated subplot with the squabbling orcs just for the benefit of Merry and Pippin is not very economic. This way their character development is tied to the main narrative, so two things are happening at once.
As for Pippin knowing more than Treebeard, I think it's more a question of how Pippin knew about the trees, rather than Treebeard being stupid. But hobbits are allowed to do cool things, the important thing is that he took matters into his own hands.
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saruonsfinger
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:39 am |
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As a revisionist who has no problem with many of the changes in the films, I am still bothered by the Entmoot. I greatly prefer the narrative in the book. The reduction in number of Ents is too severe - going from hundreds down to just eight was a bit extreme. The change in knowledge of Treebeard is a bit much to take turning him into something far less than the noble creature he was in the book . The way the hobbits have to trick the ents into taking action was less than convincing.
Now having said all that, I agree that the way it was done in the film works extremely well for the purposes of the film. It certainly does the job and is a masterful piece of storytelling. It works and that should be the main criteria for judging its success. The physical construction of Treebeard is a wonderful piece of magic that is many times better than anything I had hoped for or had imagined in my many readings. I give huge gobs of credit to Jackson and WETA. Were I in charge, I would have picked a different actor for the voice since it was too much like that of the Gimli character and many people picked out it was the same actor.
I would have preferred if the entmoot had been reduced to perhaps only 20 and they had voted to storm Isengard. The end result - those great scenes of the ents wreaking havoc on Isengard - would have been exactly the same as in the film. Pippin would have ended up not looking quite so clever and Treebeard not quite so dense and that would have been a better trade off.
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Voronwe_the_Faithful
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:39 am |
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Queen B, believe it or not, I reread the Uruk-Hai chapter last night too, simply because that was where I happened to be in my current rereading of the whole LOTR (for the first time since seeing TTT). As I said in the Orcs thread, I agree with you here; PJ dropped the ball in this one. Indeed, I believe Iavas himself recently stated that he felt this was a weakness (yes?).
That having been said, I still agree with Iavas' basic point about the Entmoot. I really think that some people simply can't look beyond the simple fact that the Ents act differently than the story they are so used to and automatically insist that the only possible explanation is that their character was changed. Even with the required condensing of the story, PJ managed to portray the Ents long, slow consideration, and the fact that if roused, "there might be all the difference between an old cow sitting and thoughtfully chewing, and a bull charging; and the change might come suddenly." As well as giving M&P needed additional character development.
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JewelSong
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:52 am |
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Everything else aside, the Ents storming Isengard is one of the coolest scenes in the movie. They really kick major orc butt. I am enthralled anew each time I see it! 
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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:00 am |
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The reduction in number of Ents is too severe - going from hundreds down to just eight was a bit extreme.
I agree that the smaller scale of the moot was a disappointment. Though this is slightly compensated for by the fact that each ent there seems to represent a certain species of tree, as if there are races of ents which have individual leaders.
The change in knowledge of Treebeard is a bit much to take turning him into something far less than the noble creature he was in the book.
I don't agree. How does the fact that he doesn't know what's going on in every single inch of Fangorn make him less noble?
The way the hobbits have to trick the ents into taking action was less than convincing.
While the execution of the 'trick' is not perfect, I still agree with the intent, which was to have the hobbits be pro-active in getting the ents to overturn their initial decision.
I would have preferred if the entmoot had been reduced to perhaps only 20 and they had voted to storm Isengard. The end result - those great scenes of the ents wreaking havoc on Isengard - would have been exactly the same as in the film.
No, I think there is a greater payoff when the attack so nearly didn't happen.
Pippin would have ended up not looking quite so clever and Treebeard not quite so dense and that would have been a better trade off.
It would do more damage than that to Pippin, he would no longer be able to take hold of the situation and shape the future as he does. It's not just about him being clever, it's his determination to make a difference after Merry spells out to him the dangers to their homeland. And I don't think Treebeard seemed dense.
As I said in the Orcs thread, I agree with you here; PJ dropped the ball in this one. Indeed, I believe Iavas himself recently stated that he felt this was a weakness (yes?).
Yes I did. But in response to QB, I would not have spent as much time on it as would be needed to benefit Merry and Pippin as much as the film currently benefits them due to their actions after the entmoot.
"there might be all the difference between an old cow sitting and thoughtfully chewing, and a bull charging; and the change might come suddenly."
Thankyou for this quote, it really does come through in the film!
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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:02 am |
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Everything else aside, the Ents storming Isengard is one of the coolest scenes in the movie. They really kick major orc butt. I am enthralled anew each time I see it!
Me too, and there'll be more of it in the TTT SE, woohoo!
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Giliath
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:08 am |
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I agree with your basic point aswell Iavas_Saar and think that the scenes worked well to advance both plot and character. I am, however, still stuck on the fact that Treebeard was not aware of the deforestation on the borders of his forest. Treebeard is meant to be the gaurdian (in essence) of Fangorn and for him not to know about such a huge loss of his freinds is a bit odd to my mind. Especially with the "They come with fire, they come with axes. Gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning! Destroyers and usurpers, curse them!" line. I suppose it's possible that he had not been to that particular part of the forset for awhile and therefore would not have known, but that's reaching. Like Iavas_Saar said this is a "minor dimishment".
In regard to M+P and the Orcs, I just feel in general that the two hobbits haven't quite got their due yet. I'm not sure that haveing the Orc scenes closer to the book would be a wise investment to give them this "due". I would have wanted that scene cahnged for the benefit of the orcs not M+P and that goes to the dumbing down of the vilians and a completely seperate issue. The character developement we recieved in the Entmoot scenes was wonderful and certainly suffieceint to make up for the lack in the Orcs scenes.
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Magpie
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 11:16 am |
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The Entmoot is one of those things people have trouble with that I thought made perfect sense. I do miss seeing Pippin tricking the orcs--it's a great moment for Pippin. But I can definitely see everyone deciding it would just take up time better spent elsewhere. Plus, I think it's confusing. Or at least I did in the book--and still do. Why does Pippin do a Gollum impression? Why does this mean anything to the orc? I can make it work--and I'm sure people have explained it to me--but it still always confuses me when I come to it. I mean, I know that people carrying the ring tend to talk about their precious but why would this orc?
Given what we know in the movie I think it would have unfortunately worked even less. As far as we know this army of uruk-hai has just been sent out to find 3 halflings who are not to be harmed. Their leader knows they carry something valuable, so perhaps the orcs know that as well. Or one of them could. But the idea of exactly how Pippin can use this against them the way he does in the book takes more time explaining, I think. It would require us knowing the uruk-hai have more sense of what it is Pippin's supposedly carrying at least. Of course they could have just had the orc pawing for something valuable and have Pippin pretend he really does have something valuable. It could have been done somehow, but it is simpler the way they did it.
In general my thought on the Entmoot was that they made the obvious decision--and that this was probably the best one. The only suspense about the Entmoot is whether or not the trees will fight. Other than that it just takes a very very long time. Speaking very very slowly even at a moment of crisis unfortunately will always make one seem like one is somewhat out of it and "slow" in the brain, imo. Treebeard in the book tells us the ents rarely get involved in the world of men but that doesn't carry much weight since this time they hop into the fray. I don't think it goes against the Ent's character at all to actually see them decide not to get involved, as they've clearly done so often in the past. Why would this time be any different than the other times? If not for the trees--which in the movie they don't yet know the full extent of--they probably would have chosen to sit it out.
I guess it does dimish the Ents in that they don't know what's going on on the borders of the forest, but it never seemed to me they had to know this, especially given the clues the movie gives us about their being too few of them to manage everything by now. In the book they know what's going on but have yet to act on it. Which makes M&P nothing more than witnesses, really. I have to agree with Iavas that better to give M&P something proactive to do in this scene than have it be too much of a whimsical coincidence. In fact, the idea that a people could be unaware of this kind of slaughter right in their backyard is completely valid historically. I realize they weren't going for a holocaust parallel here at all, but surely it seems equally strange today that people could not have known the extent of what was really going on? The ents probably would never have imagined such treachery had they not witnessed it.
-m
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Vienya81
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 11:29 am |
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This is not a change to Treebeards character or the other ents.
I agree, to a certain extent. I generally have no problems with the Entmoot - it's great to see the hobbits (especially Pippin) growing up and making some adult decisions and Merry's line 'there won't be a Shire, Pippin,' and Pippin's expression after that is just so touching. I have a question, though.
In the book Treebeard and co knows prior to the Entmoot that Saruman and his forces are guilty of 'deforestation' and that there is war outside their borders, and so they make the decision during the Entmoot to storm Isengard. Their decision hinges upon two possibilities: 1) To save themselves and teach Saruman a lesson. 2) To lend a helping hand to others who are embroiled in war and save Middle-earth. (Note that these possibilities are not mututally exclusive). Possibility 2 is somewhat hazy since prior to the Entmoot, Treebeard laments that nobody cares for the Ents anymore. But in a thread in BOOKS, some posters (I think it was Shipwright*s_Apprenctice?) and I feel that perhaps, Merry and Pippin do play a part in influencing Treebeard's decision. I wrote this:
The Ents linger as a bunch of weathered, jaded, unappreciated beings and here comes two curious little hobbits which Treebeard has not seen before and who actually takes an active interest in the Ents. Treebeard, who has witnessed the treachery and treason of his neighbour Saruman, is disappointed with the other beings of Middle Earth. But the hobbits are actually genuinely interested in the Ents, and this touches him.
I am stating a possibility: that besides the rather self-serving purpose of defence and inflicting punishment on the enemy, there might be a second reason for Treebeard's decision to go to war - that there are creatures worthy of being saved, that Middle-earth is not such a treacherous and indifferent place after all. (I'd not comment on the other Ents cos little is said about them. Quickbeam, at least, we know that his reason is truly because of anger at Saruman's duplicity and wickedness).
This possibility, however, is eliminated in the movie. Merry begs Treebeard to render help, and he flat out refuses. It takes the sight of all those burnt tree stumps to jolt him into action. I agree with you, Iavas, that the adaptation doesn't damage the Ents since their decision was based on incomplete information, but it does take away some of the compassion and remnants of attachment that they might have towards Middle-earth (the book, at least, keeps this possibility open).
Of course, my argument has lots of problems, like the fact that the Treebeard-hobbits friendship is not quite as developed in the book (though we will have to wait for the SE DVD) and so it makes little sense that Treebeard will risk his life for two little strangers.
If anyone can provide a quote in the book which can dispel possibility 2, I would appreciate it, cos I have been wondering about this for some time.
Another part I am unsure of is Merry shouting at the Ents. It really shows that Merry is dead anxious to help his friends but shouting at the Ents? I was expecting Treebeard to flare up, but kudos to him, he replies in the most Ent-ish, patient, do-not-be-hasty manner. It is a nice contrast between the young hobbit with a burning urgency to help his friends and the old unhurried Ent though.
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fisssh
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 11:44 am |
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I actually liked the fact that there were only a few Ents - one from each "species" - at the Entmoot. It made it much more dramatic when the large army of Ents emerge from the trees and start marching toward Isengard.
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lamarquise
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:11 pm |
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Back again! (Isn't everyone thrilled...) I took a several week break, and it's been nice.
No, changing the Entmoot in the way Jackson did wasn't a good decision. I totally agree that a lot of the execution was flawed. That's exactly the problem. Jackson et al don't know how to write changes. In particular, they don't know how to write semi-intelligent dialogue. You seem to think that the execution on these scenes doesn't matter. Unfortunately, that's the only impression some of us are left with...the clumsy parts. Can you see why some of us didn't like the movie?
I don't disagree that it wouldn't be fun to have the Ents be reticent and have Merry and Pippen turn the tide. But they shouldn't be tricking allies into doing anything--that's underhanded rather than clever--and they should be trying to change opinions after a tentative decision is reached but not after a final decision is reached. But it's a dangerous mischaracterization to have the Ents not knowing what's going on to their own trees and then suddenly getting enraged later. (It took them several days of consideration to decide even when they knew what was going on in the book.) I can't imagine the ents ignoring some of their trees just because they were on the borders.
Anyway, back at you!
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Giliath
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:16 pm |
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I've been quote hunting.
It seems certain to me that Treebeard knew at least there was something going on: "There is something very big going on, that I can see, and what it is maybe I shall learn in good time, or in bad time."
He certainly was aware of Saruman's doings, but perhaps reminded of the urgency when M+P arrived: "Saruman is a neighbour: I cannot overlook him. I must do something, I suppose.I have often wondered lately about Saruman." Now, Treebeards already been thinking about Saruman, or so it would seem, and just hasn't done anything about it yet. The hobbits become his catalyst. In the movie the hobbits remain the catalyst for Treebeards actions, but there is less pre-thought, if any, on the matter. Treebeard knows about the orcs in his woods, but little else it would seem. The shift in the film dose seem only to be on the level of information. Treebeard in the book knows a great deal about Saruman and what he is doing on his borders: "Down on the borders they are felling trees-good trees......" and so on. I think also that there is a shift in Treebeard's level of thought on the matter. In the book we get the sence that he ahs been mulling it over and perhaps only comes to the ultimate conclusion about Saruman when M+P arrive and tell their story: "And now it is clear to me that he is a black traitor." It seems far more sudden in the film, but I suppose with less information on a matter comes less thought.
Oh and to help #2 out Vienya81: "You will be helping your own friends that way too; for if Saruman is not checked Rohan and Gondor well have an enemy behind aswell as infront."
I think however that in the book Treebeard had always intended to do something about Saruman and that he just needed the little push that the hobbits presented by way of their own plight and perhaps the added info that the Orcs that captured them were Saruman's in part. Treebeard certainly sees the orcs as a final sign that Saruman is a traitor.
(Just a warning that it has been a while since I've seen the film and Treebeards dialogue is not what you would call "fresh" in my mind.)
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Mithfânion
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:53 pm |
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Iavas, I disagree with your contention that the character of the Ents hasn't been changed. I guess it's typical that I feel that that is precisely why I object to this bunnyslippers of the Ents so strongly. If it were just a matter of tacking on certain things and deleting a few minor developments it would be something else.
Overall, the protrayal of the Ents is so much more baffoonish than it was the way Tolkien created them. They seem so naieve. The thing is, talking trees are always going to have a hard time coming off as clever. However if you want them to come across as intelligent, as Tolkien conceived them, there is one aspect you can play on: age.
The Ents are age-old. They have great wisdom, which is respected by the Wise of Middle-earth, Gandalf first and foremost ( I can't imagine a better judge of character).
If you want them to come across as intelligent, that is what you play on. Jackson created a different sort of Ent in my opinion. What he retains from Tolkien's Ents is the primeval aspect. He retains that "once they are roused, their instincts completely take over". That's good. But what is lost is the intelligence.
For instance, they display an utter lack of caring for the outside world. After that is shown, we get Merry's speech, which tells them that they *should* give a damn. But they don't. This is really hammered home, and to add insult to injury, they just stand there, gawking at the rantings of the little creatures. That seems so different from the Book Treebeard doesn't it, who listened very very carefully to what the little Halflings had to say, and when he had heard all that they had to tell, he made up his mind.
Now, in the movie, the Hobbits have told Treebeard and the others what has happened. In addition to that, we have Treebeard who, at the first encounter with the Hobbits, lets us know that he is aware of the atrocities committed by Orcs (the "They come with fire, they come with axes. Gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning! Destroyers and usurpers, curse them!" line). In contrast to the book, where there was also this awareness, M&P's information doesn't nothing to spill the bucket. It doesn't convince Treebeard himself, let alone the rest of the Ents.
What this does, is make them look ignorant. Ignorant because they don't know what's going on, and plain dumb for not acting when they *are* told what happens. They maintain that they "will weather it, as we have always done".
Now, as for the Entmoot themselves, I am not sure why Jackson took the creative liberty to reduce the number of Ents to such a strangely small number. Especially since we later see that there are, in fact, many. Why? Is there a particular reason why they weren't consulted? Also, why the creative liberty? What does it add to the story of the LoTR to have such a reduction of Ents? Simply to be different?
In the end, it *is* the character that has been changed, and that is the problem. They are not the same. And if I'm allowed to point to a parallel, like Aragorn in FoTR, like Theoden, like Faramir and like Elrond, they have been diminished in nobility. And they, unlike the others, do not have a character arc opportunity.
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Giliath
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:08 pm |
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Well said Mithfânion.
For instance, they display an utter lack of caring for the outside world
Yes. In the book Treebeard says that he has not "bothered" with the wars of men, but it seems quite evindent that he has thought about what was going on and certainly cares. This goes back to what I was trying to say before. Treebeard in the book is quite contemplative in my mind. He thinks about things quite abit and for quite along time. I don't see that in film Treebeard. That seems so different from the Book Treebeard doesn't it, who listened very very carefully to what the little Halflings had to say, and when he had heard all that they had to tell, he made up his mind.
Yes. He listens to might the Hobbits have to say and combines it with his own knowledge and wisdom and then acts. It's the knowledge that is absent and perhaps the wisdom aswell. I've never really though about it to great extent, but that dose seem to be the problem.
In the writter's defence, it seems to me that most of the exposition of Treebeard's caharcter in the book, of his knowledge of the old world, of his wisdpm, of his knowledge of Saruman, and so on, comes in one very long conversation that is difficult in the extrem if not impossible to bring to the screen.
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Mithfânion
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:54 pm |
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I feel that could easily be solved though. To name just one scene where you could show Treebeard's wisdom, the Entmoot itself. Why not have him pull the cart? Why not distinguish him and make him fight for the cause that the audience knows has to be supported? If he at least is shown to argue with the others to draw them over the line, you make an effort at showing why he is Treebeard, oldest and wisest.
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Berhael
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:03 pm |
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I'm sorry Iavas, I saw your post in the Purist/Revisionist thread and managed not to reply to that one, but I can't let this thread go.
IMHO, the Entmoot was not a successful piece of adaptation. It felt rushed and wrong, and although I accept that film Ents didn't have the same information that book Ents did, in that case there was no reason for them to act the way they did. Sorry, I can accept the film version, but a great example of adaptation it wasn't.
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EAL
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:13 pm |
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One problem with the pacing of the Entmoot was that it took them forever to decide that M&P weren't orcs but really did not take long for them to decide not to go to war.
However, one thing I did like about Treebeard being tricked into calling the ents to war was his line, when he turned around, that he likes walking south because it always feels like he's walking downhill -- kind of a juvenile joke about the globe, I know, but I enjoyed it, and it probably hit home better for the New Zealanders down under than for us (well, most of us) Northern Hemispherers.
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Magpie
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Grey Havens
Last Visited: 30 Mar 2005
Joined: 22 Jan 2002
Posts: 4051
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:17 pm |
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I feel that could easily be solved though. To name just one scene where you could show Treebeard's wisdom, the Entmoot itself. Why not have him pull the cart? Why not distinguish him and make him fight for the cause that the audience knows has to be supported? If he at least is shown to argue with the others to draw them over the line, you make an effort at showing why he is Treebeard, oldest and wisest.
But why equate old and wise with the decision to fight? I'm not saying I was bowled over by Treebeard's wisdom on film (although I have a friend who thought he was the stupidest thing ever in the books so maybe that's subjective) but what he says to Merry sounds very much like the perspective of an older person speaking to a younger one. Treebeard has seen how things rise up and pass away. Merry is eager and young and thinks everything is very important. To me that moment did show Treebeard's age. I mean, age alone doesn't mean always making the right decision. If it did Grandpa Simpson would be a genius. Based on the information Treebeard has it's not particularly stupid to sit things out.
Now, Treebeard does seem less on the ball when Pippin "tricks him" into going past Isengaard. Although I don't think it's much of a trick on Pippin's part. It's not like Pippin has staged fake tree-slaughter or is making Treebeard think trees are being destroyed when they aren't. He just brings him to a place where he'll see how things are. But he could have done that more honestly, certainly, and just told Treebeard they wanted to be let out on the South Side of the forest to see what Saruman was up to or something. Since Treebeard falls for Pippin's nonsensical explanation (which doesn't even make sense to him) he does there seem like he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. But I do think it was necessary somehow to get that moment of Treebeard seeing the destroyed trees. Having the hobbits convince them to fight during the Entmoot, even with Treebeard's help, is an anti-climax. It's no big deal seeing the trees if they've already decided by committee to fight. I think most filmmakers would want the Ent's decision to come directly off of seeing those trees.
-m
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Giliath
Mariner
Alliance: House of Earendil
Last Visited: 15 Jun 2005
Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 6632
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:25 pm |
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Why not distinguish him and make him fight for the cause that the audience knows has to be supported? If he at least is shown to argue with the others to draw them over the line, you make an effort at showing why he is Treebeard, oldest and wisest.
That is ture and would be a good sollution save for one problem, that would make it much harder if not impossible to work in the M+P dialogue/developement that PJ et al wanted to achieve in the scene. With Treebeard on their side the development and progression of the scene would be very different. There is also the point that Treebeard talks to the Ents at the Entmoot in that deep rumbleing Ent speek and we don't hear anything he says to the others let alone any deffence of the hobbits, so I suppose that aspect would have to be abandoned aswell to fit this sollution.
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noledge
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Minas Morgul
Last Visited: 22 Nov 2003
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
Posts: 1532
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:44 pm |
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I definately think that Treebeards knowledge and actual role was greatly changed and thus reduced. My mate who saw TTT (and liked it better then FOTR, proves he not a book fan then!) basically described Treebeard as a 'great cave troll for the goodies', a rapid alteration from the oldest and wisest being in ME that is Treebeard of the books.
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Vienya81
Shield Bearer
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 26 Apr 2004
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 359
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:48 pm |
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I mean, age alone doesn't mean always making the right decision. If it did Grandpa Simpson would be a genius.
LOL! But I love Grandpa Simpson! Given the state of Homer and Bart, I'd say the young ones probably ain't all that wise either.
Lisa and Marge, on the other hand...
Sorry. Please continue the discussion.
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RangerSmith
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Numenore
Last Visited: 11 Dec 2004
Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 1780
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:03 pm |
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I can understand why PJ adapted the scene the way he did, to give more credibility to Merry and Pip becoming knights. Treebeard's wisdom and stature definitely suffered but I think this will be addressed in the EE DVD. Jackson has said that his favourite character in the books was Treebeard so I don't think he would leave him as sort of a baffoon. No doubt we'll see more expostion on the ents and their situation in the EE, probably during the ent draught scenes.
I would equate it to the lobotomized Celeborn in FOTR TC and the exponentially more personable and wise elf in the EE DVD.
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Hobbituk
Geronimo!
Alliance: The One Ring
Last Visited: 03 Sep 2010
Joined: 14 Nov 2000
Posts: 10983
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:25 pm |
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I didn't think it was a great example of adaptation really, but neither did I find it altogether objectionable.
My biggest gripe with this scene that always bugs me is when Treebeard says something to Merry about the entmoot being a meeting...and Merry (who not long before seemed to know everything about ents) says "A meeting of what?"
of all the stoopid questions...
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...because Fezzes are cool...
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Saruman_the_Wise
Shield Bearer
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 07 Jan 2004
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 113
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:07 pm |
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I re-read the "Uruk-hai" chapter last night (no, I haven't got a life). There is tons of great stuff there that could have been used in the film - details of orc organisation, the rivalry between the Mordor and Isengard orcs demonstrating Saruman's real intentions, Merry & Pippin's shrewd reading of Grishnakh's intentions and their bold seizing of the initiative in that situation. That was a great opportunity let slip. Instead we got a food fight followed by a set-up that made Treebeard look as if he knew less than Pippin.
Cross your fingers for the extended edition.
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Giliath
Mariner
Alliance: House of Earendil
Last Visited: 15 Jun 2005
Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 6632
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 6:01 pm |
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Many discussions on these boards of characters or plot in TTT always seem to end with wait for the SE or something of that nature. My question is should we have to. I don't see why the SE should redeem a big mistake in the theatrical editon.
Sorry unrelated rant.
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