DrogoBaggins
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Posted: Fri Aug 8, 2003 6:51 pm |
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Does anyone else think a great part of the charm of LOTR, The Sil, etc., is in Tolkien's presentation of the stories as real historical accounts that he has simply translated (and perhaps dramaticized)?
Along these lines, has anyone compiled a list of who authored the original tales and how they came to us?
No?
Then let's do so, shall we?
I don't have any texts with me at the moment (I'd especially appreciate The Sil and UT at the moment), but I can at least get the ball rolling with the easy ones:
The Hobbit: Originally the memoirs/diary of Bilbo Baggins; passed on to Frodo Baggins to become the basis of the Red Book of Westmarch.
LOTR: The account of The War of the Ring derived from the experiences of Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin. It was penned largely by Frodo as a continuation of Bilbo's work (see The Hobbit) and was augmented by scholars' wisdom in Minas Tirith during Pippin's visit(s?) there after the War.
The Silmarillion (including the Sil proper and accompanying histories: The Valaquenta, Akallabeth, etc.): Elvish histories collected in Rivendell and translated into the common tongue by Bilbo Baggins. Given to Frodo along with Bilbo's memoirs.
**********
OK, that's all I can put out there without texts to confirm names. Is anyone interested enough to contribute the original authors of the Sil's various stories? (I'm thinking Thingol's minstrel Daeron penned some of it.)
How about Numenore's few surviving tales?
How about putting adding how the exact details of how Bilbo's original book evolved into the complete Red Book?
Maybe I can copy and paste others' research into this original post's scanty outline...if contributors don't mind the plagiarism.
Or am I the only one crazy enough to want all this info compiled?
Drogo
PS. Please tell me if I committed any major misspellings above. Again, no books handy.
Thanks!
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Parmamaite
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Posted: Sat Aug 9, 2003 12:11 pm |
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That is an interesting project Drogo.
I don't have the time to consult my books right now, but AFAIR the elves Rumil and Pengolod wrote a lot of what became the Silmarillion, as for Numenorean authors, I believe Elendil the Tall himself wrote the Akallabeth, and that Tar-Elendil Parmaitë also wrote numerous books.
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Gorhaur
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Posted: Sat Aug 9, 2003 12:56 pm |
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This is very interesting DrogoBaggins! You're correct, IIRC, on all your breakdown of who wrote what (and I don't see any spelling mistakes  ).
Parmamaitë's information all seems correct also!
----
Hi Parm! Welcome back home! 
[...]I believe Elendil the Tall himself wrote the Akallabeth[...]
That is true; I believe it says that in Unfinished Tales. I remember reading it, and I remember it being a question on the ME Trivia thread.
[...]Tar-Elendil Parmaitë also wrote numerous books.
That's neat. What books did he devise?
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Turinova
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Posted: Sat Aug 9, 2003 3:45 pm |
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Very interesting project indeed! Here's some information that I could find.
Narn i Hîn Hûrin
"...though made in Elvish speech and using much Elvish lore, espicially of Doraith, the Narn i Hîn Hûrin was the work of a Mannish poet, Dírhavel, who lived at the Havens of Sirion in the days of Eärendil, and there gathered all the tidings that he could of the House of Hador, whether among Men or Elves, remnants and fugitives of Dor-lómin, of Nargothrond, of Gondolin, or of Doraith.... Dírhavel is said to have come himself from the House of Hador. This lay, longest of all the lays of Beleriand, was all that he ever made, but it was prized by the Eldar, for Dírhavel used the Grey-elven tongue, in which he had great skill. He used that mode of Elvish verse which was called Minlamed thent / estent, and was of old proper to the narn (a tale that is told in verse, but to be spoken and not sung). Dírhavel perished in the raid of the Sons of Fëanor upon the Havens of Sirion." -UT, pg. 146 (Intro to the notes)
Akallabêth and Aldarion and Erendis
"...Elendil was the author of the Akallabêth... It is also said, elsewhere, that the story of Aldarion and Erendis, 'one of the few histories preserved from Númenor', owed its preservation to its being of interest to Elendil [though Elendil himself did not write the story]." -UT, pg. 227 (Note 16)
I'll post anything else I find.
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Tar-Elenion
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Posted: Sat Aug 9, 2003 7:51 pm |
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Try this website:
The Chroniclers of Arda:
http://www.forodrim.org/gobennas/chron_en.html
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Parmamaite
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Posted: Sat Aug 9, 2003 11:54 pm |
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Hi Gorhaur! Thanks for the welcome
I don't think that it is stated anywhere what Tar-Elendil wrote, but in 'The Line of Elros' (in Unfinished Tales) it is said that:
'He was also called Parmaitë, for with his own hand he made many books and legends of the lore gathered by his grandfather.'
Tar-Elendil's grandfather was Vardamir, who:
'was called Nólimon for his chief love was for ancient lore, which he gathered from Elves and Men.'
Vardamir died in 471 and Tar-Elendil was born in 350, so they had ample time to talk with each other.
What was 'ancient lore' in the early 2nd age? My guess is that Vardamir (and thus Tar-Elendil) was primarily interested in stories about Valinor and the Valar. Perhaps the reason why no text is ascribed to Tar-Elendil is that all his work perished in the Akallabeth. 
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Kushana
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Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:02 pm |
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I was just reading Tolkien's foreword to LOTR last night, and he gives the Red Book a manuscript history that would dignify many genuine old books. (I think he is trying to say that the earlier editions of The Hobbit's "Riddles in the Dark" were based on certain manuscripts of the Red Book which contained Bilbo's false story. )
-Kushana
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DrogoBaggins
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 12:29 pm |
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The webisite Tar-Elenion noted above provides a pretty complete answer to our query. It even has a family tree of sorts showing how the different accounts come down to us over the years!
Thanks T-E! I had never even heard the story of how Ælfwine, a modern mariner, had found the Straight Road and returned to our mortal lands with all those stories. Is that canon?
I've got to get the rest of that HoME series! (If that where that stuff came from; I didn't recognize some of the website's references.)
Drogo
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:23 pm |
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In Text I of 'Myths Transformed' in Morgoth's Ring (HOME X), JRRT writes:
It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in Men and in Men's ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their writers and loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to their measure of understanding). What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centred upon actors, such as Fëanor) handed on by Men in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back - from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas.
Thus, works such as the Ainulindalë which was originally regarded as having been written solely by Rúmil in HOME I-V is recorded in The Silmarillion index as being the name of the account of Creation said to have been composed by Rúmil of Tirion in the Elder Days. and is now an amalgam of the Elvish original blended with Mannish beliefs. Thus such things as a 'Flat Earth' or the Sun and Moon coming into being after the Elves are now included.
In a 'Memorandum' attached to the above text JRRT wrote:
The three Great Tales must be Númenórean, and derived from matter preserved in Gondor. They were part of the Atanatárion (or the Legendarium of the Fathers of Men). ?Sindarin Nern in Edenedair (or In Adanath).
They are (1) Narn Beren ion Barahir also called Narn e·Dinúviel (Tale of the Nightingale)
(2) Narn e·mbar Hador containing (a) Narn i·Chîn Húrin (or Narn e·'Rach Morgoth Tale of the Curse of Morgoth); and (b) Narn en·Êl (or Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar Orthad en·Êl)
Should not these be given as Appendices to the Silmarillion?
and also:
[CJRT] The idea that the legends of the Elder Days derived from Númenórean tradition appears also in the abandoned typescript (AAm*) of the Annals of Aman that my father made himself (p. 64). In this text the preamble states:
Here begin the 'Annals of Aman'. Rúmil made them in the Elder Days, and they were held in memory by the Exiles. Those parts which we learned and remembered were thus set down in Númenor before the Shadow fell upon it.
HOME X Pp. 373-4
JRRT sketched some accounts of Creation with a 'Round World' point-of-view but none were completed .
This pulling back from an 'Elvish' origin for the stories given in The Silmarillion stems from the realization that the early 'flat earth' myths are incompatible with what the Eldar would have learnt from the Valar and observed for themselves. This makes better sense as the perfection of the Elvish memory (attested throughout HOME X) means that contradictions and inconsistencies should not arise. That they exist in the writings points to a human origin (or at least transmission) of the tales. It is a pity that Bilbo did not think to ask Glorfindel (or other survivors from the First Age) for an eye witness account of the History of the North-west of the World rather than spending his time translating the poetic and artistic (but highly distorted and confused) tales collected in Rivendell's libraries  .
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DrogoBaggins
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 2:10 pm |
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Always-reliable Romestamo!
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thebachelor
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Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:49 pm |
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I think some fans have speculated that Elrond wrote "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", and this is supported by the statement in "The Council of Elrond" that the story Elrond told the Council of the history of the Rings "is recorded elsewhere, as Elrond himself set it down in his books of lore", or words to that effect. Perhaps Sam added the concluding passage about the departure of the ship, or perhaps Elrond could foresee his departure well enough to describe it in advance.
Similarly, "The War of the Jewels" quotes a letter from JRRT in which he ascribes to Galadriel an opinion about the origins of the Ents and the Eagles corresponding to that described in the chapter "Of Aule and Yavanna" in the published "Silmarillion". The same passage of "The War of the Jewels" reveals that the latter part of "Of Aule and Yavanna" was originally a separate short piece called "Of the Ents and the Eagles" which Christopher Tolkien editorially inserted into the "Quenta Silmarillion". This leads me to wonder if JRRT intended Galadriel to have been the author of this piece.
A few very minor points: "The War of the Jewels" also reveals that "Dirhavel" should be spelled "Dirhaval", that "minlamed thent / estent" should be spelled "minlamad thent / estent", and that JRRT may have intended to change Pengolodh's name to "Thingodhel".
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greenleafwood
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Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:37 pm |
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how about Elanor Gamgee? In the Prologue to LOTR, it is written that:
The original Red Book has not been preserved, but many copies were made, especially of the first volume, for the use of the descendants of the children of Master Samwise.
In Appendix B: 1482 Death of Mistress Rose... on September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ringbearers.
~greenleaf
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merlyn
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Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:45 pm |
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I was quite interested to discover that Elendil was the author of the Akallabeth. That indicates, by the way, that he shared with Julius Caesar the tendency to write about his adventures and deeds in the third person.
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jallan
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Posted: Fri Feb 6, 2004 4:43 pm |
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Tolkien mentions in the chapter "The Council of Elrond":
<< Then through all the years that followed he traced the Ring; but since that history is elsewhere recounted, even as Elrond himself set it down in his books of lore, it is not here recalled. >>
This, as Thebachelor indicates might be intended to refer to "The Rings of Power and the Third Age", but obviously not to all of it. We are told:
<< For Frodo the Halfling, it is said, at the bidding of Mithrandir ... >>
Elrond would not use the phrase it is said which suggests some doubt of the tale on the part of the sribe who indeed gets the conclusion wrong:
<< ... and there into the Fire where it was wrought he cast the Great Ring of Power, ... >>
And the work near the end contains the passage:
<< In the courts of Minas Anor the White Tree flowered again, for a seedling was found by Mithrandir in the snows of Mindolluin that rose tall and white above the City of Gondor; and while it still grew there the Elder Days were not wholly forgotten in the hearts of Kings. >>
The viewpoint of this passage is that of a later era when the White Tree no longer grows in Minas Anor and when, in the opinion of the writer, the Elder Days are disdained by recent Kings.
An account by Elrond might be imagined to be buried within this document, perhaps at great remove, much abridged and summarized by one of the sources used by the scribe. But what we have is not intended to be Elrond's own work.
As to the Akallabêth, the published version is mostly edited by Christopher Tolkien from his father's last version which was still in the form of a dialogue between Ælfwine and Pengolod. A revised version which could have been authored by Elendil himself was never written by J.R.R. Tolkien.
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thebachelor
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Posted: Sat Feb 7, 2004 10:46 am |
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jallan, I agree with most of your points. I would like to point out, however, that Elrond might have chosen to write that Frodo threw the Ring into the Fire because his pity for Gollum and his withstanding of the temptation of the Ring almost to the very end resulted in the Ring's destruction. Of course, Sam must share much of the credit, and I always did think that, no matter who wrote "Of the Rings of Power", it was outrageous that Sam wasn't referred to by name, only as Frodo's "servant".
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jallan
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Posted: Sun Feb 8, 2004 3:16 pm |
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It seems to me that Tolkien is having fun there.
Summaries of tales and references to tales in old works are often similarly different from the full versions and there arises great debate among scholars whether that is evidence of a different version of the tale being known or simply forgetfulness and/or carelessness on the part of the person summarizing the story.
Note that the scribe states:
<< But those who saw the things that were done in that time, deeds of valour and wonder, have elsewhere told the tale of the War of the Ring, and how it ended both in victory unlooked for and in sorrow long forseen. >>
The phrase in that time indicates the writer is of a different time. At least one of the works referred to is doubtless the account of Frodo's account. It is all the more amusing that the scribe gets the climax incorrect.
But similar mistatements about the content of a tale appear in book reviews and film reviews (and in web postings) and I would not be surprised to find a similar mistatement of the ending in a genuine short summary. I would not be surprised if Tolkien was inspired by such a mistatement in some review or commentary.
Also medieval writers in some case pretended to use works that in fact they don't use and in some cases refer to works that probably never existed.
Thebachelor posted:
<< Of course, Sam must share much of the credit, and I always did think that, no matter who wrote "Of the Rings of Power", it was outrageous that Sam wasn't referred to by name, only as Frodo's "servant". >>
Yes. Tolkien probably intends us to see the scribe as a bit of a snob.
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