Eruname127
Mariner
Alliance: Angband
Last Visited: 11 Sep 2006
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 5229
|
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:41 pm |
     |
|
Welcome to the Virtual Tolkien Study Group's discussion of Chapter 21 of the Quenta Silmarillon!
Please feel free to contribute. Simple questions and observations are just as welcome as deep, insightful posts. If you are new to the forum, please take a look at the READ FIRST POST/sign in/ask questions/OOC thread before you post.
I will be starting the thread by posting a summary of the chapter broken up into two posts and miles2go will post the study questions.
August study session: The Tale of Of Túrin Turambar
Chapter 21: Of Of Túrin Turambar
Morwen and Húrin were betrothed and together had a son Túrin and a daughter Lalaith. When Lalaith was three years old she was killed by a pestilence from Angband.
After the Nirnaeth Arnoediad Morwen still lived in Dorlómin. Those days were evil and the Easterlings despised the people of Hador, oppressed them, took their lands and enslaved their children. Yet the beauty and majesty of Morwen was feared by the Easterlings and she was somewhat safe. Yet she had become poor and unaided except by a kinswoman named Aerin who had been taken as the Easterling Brodda's wife. Morwen feared that Túrin would be taken and enslaved so she decided to send him away in secret. She begged King Thingol to take him in. So Morwen sent Túrin with two aged servants to find entry into Doriath. Thus the fate of Túrin was woven.
In the beginning of the year, Morwen gave birth to another daughter of Húrin, Nienor. At this time Túrin came to the borders of Doriath where they were found by Beleg Strongbow who led them to Menegroth. Thingol received Túrin then sent messengers to Morwen bidding her to come to Doriath. She refused to leave her house, but sent back the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin which was the greatest of the heirlooms of the house of Hador.
Túrin grew fair and strong in Doriath, but he was marked with sorrow. Messengers came with news of Morwen and Nienor but one day the messengers did not return. Túrin was filled with fear for his mother and sister and in grimness of heart he went to battle on the marches of Doriath and became the companion of Beleg Cáthalion.
After three years Túrin returned to Menegroth and was wild and unkempt There was one in Doriath, high in the counsels of the King who had long begrudged the honor of being Thingol's fosterson that Túrin had received. Saeros was his name. He taunted and insulted Túrin. In anger Túrin struck him with his drinking vessel. The next day, Saeros attacked Túrin but Túrin overcame him. Saeros fleeing in terror fell into the chasm of a stream and his body was broken. Others saw what happened and Mablung bade Túrin to return to Menegroth and seek the pardon of the King. But Túrin believing himself an outlaw refused and passed through the Girdle of Melian and joined a band of such houseless and desperate men who turned against all who came in their path, Elves, Men and Orcs.
When all was told, Thingol pardoned Túrin and asked Beleg Strongbow to find Túrin and bring him back. Beleg agreed and went searching for Túrin.
Túrin abode long with the outlaws and became their captain naming himself Neithan, the Wronged. When a year had passed since Túrin had fled, Beleg came across their lair at night. Túrin was gone from camp and the outlaws seized Beleg, bound him, and treated him cruelly since they thought he was a spy of the King. When Túrin returned he was stricken with remorse, released Beleg and renewed their friendship. He also foreswore thence forward war and plunder against all save servants of Angband. Beleg told Túrin of Thingol's pardon and tried to get him to return by saying there was need of his strength on the north marches of the realm. But in the pride of his heart Túrin refused the pardon of Thingol. He urged Beleg to stay with him but Beleg would not. Beleg told Túrin he was stubborn and if he wished to have the Strongbow beside him he would look for him in Dimbar. When Beleg was setting out, Túrin accompanied him for a way. Túrin told him "You have said seed me in Dimbar. But I say, seek me for me on Amon Rúdh! Else this is our last farewell." Then they parted in friendship and in sadness.
Beleg returned to Thingol and told all. He asked for leave to guide and guard Túrin. Thingol consented and in thanks told Beleg he could ask for any gift. Beleg chose the sword Anglachel. As Thingol gave Beleg the sword, Melian warned Beleg of the sword's malice, but Beleg chose to wield it. Melian also gave him a gift of store of lembas which showed great favor to Túrin. Beleg departed with these gifts.
Túrin and his outlaws had been wandering and by chance came upon three Dwarves and seized on named Mîm. Mîm pleaded for his life and Túrin pitied him and asked him where his house was. Mîm answered Amon Rûdh and Túrin told him that he would lead them there. Following Mîm they came to Amon Rûdh and entered it. Mîm found his son Khîm dead. Pity rose in Túrin's heart and he told Mîm if he ever came to wealth that he would pay a ransom of gold for his son. This cooled Mîm's heart invited Túrin to dwell in his house.
In that time Túrin spoke much with Mîm and learned of his past. Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf cities of the east. Only he and his sons were left of his group. The smithies were idle, the axes rusted and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.
In the midwinter Beleg returned to Túrin one more and with brought the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin thinking it might lift Túrin's thoughts. But Túrin would not return to Doriath and Beleg against his wisdom remained with Túrin. Beleg healed the wounded with the lembas of Melian and came to be held in honor among the outlaws, but Mîm's hatred of him grew and grew. Túrin paid now little heed to the Dwarf for spring had come and they had sterner work to do.
The might of Angband was moved again and was moving through Beleriand. Dimbar was taken and all the north marches of Doriath. Túrin put on again the Helm of Hador and far and wide in Beleriand the whisper went saying that the Helm and Bow that had fallen in Dimbar had arisen again. Many who were leaderless took heart again and came to seek the Two Captains. Túrin named himself anew, Gorthol, the dreaded helm and his heart was high again. Morgoth discovered that the Dragon-helm was Húrin's son and Amon Rûdh was surrounded by spies.
While Mîm and his son were gathering roots they were taken captive by Orcs and forced to lead them to Amon Rûdh. Mîm begged that Túrin not be slayed. When the Orcs came upon Amon Rûdh, many of Túrin's company were slain and Túrin was captured. When all was silent, Mîm crept out of his house and saw the dead men, but he perceived all were not dead. He saw the eyes of Beleg and with hatred stepped up to him and drew the sword Anglachel that lay near. Beleg seized back the sword and thrust is at Mîm who fled in terror. Beleg recovered from his wounds and searched in vain for Túrin. He knew he had been taken to Angband.
With little hope Beleg started for Angband following the tracks of the Orcs. On his path he came across the Elf Gwindor, son of Guilin. Gwindor told how he was put to labor in the mining of the North. He had escaped by secret tunnels. Gwindor also said that he saw a man who was captive of a band of traveling Orcs. Beleg told Gwindor of his quest and Gwindor tried to dissuade him fearing that he would join Túrin's anguish. But Beleg would not give up and convinced Gwindor to accompany him.
They came across the band of Orcs and while the camp was sleeping, Beleg took his bow and shot all the wolf sentinels. They entered the camp and found Túrin. They cut his bonds and carried him as far as they could. They laid him down when they could go no further. Beleg drew his sword Anglachel and cut the fetters that bound Túrin, but the blade slipped and Túrin's foot was pricked. He was aroused into a sudden wakefulness of rage and fear and believing the one standing over him was an Orc tormenting him, he seized Anglachel and slew Beleg thinking him a foe. Then came a flash of lightning and Túrin saw Beleg's face and knew what he had done was terrible. The storm aroused the Orcs and Gwindor tried to warn Túrin of his peril. But Túrin would not move.
In the morning, the Orcs believing that Túrin would have fled far departed without a search. Gwindor helped Túrin bury Beleg. They placed beside him his bow but Gwindor took the sword Anglachel and the lembas. The grief on Túrin's face never would fade. Gwindor had renewed strength and led Túrin far away and Gwindor was there to guide and guard him. Gwindor told Túrin of his enslavement in Angband and that he was from Nargothrond. He also told Túrin that his father Húrin was rumored to still be defying Morgoth and Morgoth had laid a curse upon him and all of his kin which Túrin believed. They journeyed along the banks of the Narog until they were taken by scouts of the elves and brought as prisoners to Nargothrond.
At first his own people did not know Gwindor because he seemed so aged, but Finduilas daughter of Orodreth the King knew him and welcomed him. For Gwindor's sake, Túrin was admitted with him into Nargothrond and he dwelt there in honor. But Túrin would not give his name and only said "I am Agarwaen the son of Úmarth (which is the Bloodstained, son of Ill-fate), a hunter in the woods."
In the time that followed Túrin grew high in favor with Orodreth and others. The sword Anglachel was forged anew for him and he named it Gurthang, Iron of Death. So great was his prowress and skill in warfare on the Guarded Plain that he himself became known as Mormegil, the Black Sword and enemies fled before his face.
Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and not against her will love was given to Túrin, yet Túrin did not know. Gwindor tried to persuade Finduilas not to love Túrin and revealed his real name to Finduilas. He told her that this man is not Beren and that a doom lies on him. WhenTúrin learned from Finduilas what had passed, he was wrathful toward Gwindor. When it became known to Orodreth Túrin's real name, he gave him great honor and Túrin became mighty among the people of Nargothrond. Túrin yearned for more open warfare and his counsels were weighed with the King. The Noldor build a mighty bridge for swifter passage of their arms and the servants of Angband were driven out. Gwindor spoke ill of Túrin and fell into dishonor. Thus Nargothrond was revealed to Morgoth, but at Túrin's prayer his name was not spoken. He was widely know but as the Black Sword of Nargothrond |
|
|
|
|
|
Eruname127
Mariner
Alliance: Angband
Last Visited: 11 Sep 2006
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 5229
|
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:42 pm |
     |
|
Chapter 21 continued
The powers of Morgoth had spread west of Sirion and finally Morwen fled to Doriath with her daughter. New grief awaited her for she found Túrin gone and heard no tidings of him. But Morwen and Nienor remained in Doriath as guests of Thingol and Melian.
Two Elves, Gelmir and Arminas who were of Angrod's people and had dwelt with Círdan, came to Nargothrond. They told that Ulmo had come to Círdan, giving warning that great peril drew night to Nargothrond. Ulmo said to tell the Lord of Nargothrond that he should shut the doors of the fortress and not go abroad. Orodreth was troubled but Túrin did not hearken to these counsels for he was proud and stern and would order all things as he wished.
Morgoth loosed upon the people of Narog the great host he had long prepared. Glaurung came into the north vales of Sirion and there did great evil. Under the shadows of Ered Wethrin he defiled the Eithel Irvin and he passed into the realm of Nargothrond and burned the Talath Dirnen, the Guarded Plain, between Narog and Teiglin.
The warriors of Nargothrond went forth, but greater was the host of Morgoth than any scouts had told. The Elves were driven back. Orodreth was slain and Gwindor was wounded to the death. Túrin bore Gwindor out of the rout. Gwindor told Túrin that he loved him yet rued the day he took him from the Orcs. He then bade Túrin to save Finduilas. Túrin sped back to Nargothrond but the host of Orcs and Glaurung were there before him. The mighty bridge proved evil for it let the enemy come readily over the deep river.
As Túrin arrived the sack of Nargothrond was completed. Túrin struck down all before him and hewed his way towards the captives. Túrin stood along and Glaurung came before him. Túrin tried to fight Glaurung but he fell under the binding spell of the eyes of the dragon and was halted moveless. Glaurung taunted him saying that his mother and sister live as thralls while he is arrayed as a prince. While he was held captive by the dragon's eyes, the Orcs drove away the captives. Among them was Finduilas and she cried out to him but Glaurung did not release Túrin until her cried were lost. Glaurung then released Túrin and offered him freedom to go find his kin. Túrin believed the dragon and sped away but as he went Glaurung told him that if he tarried for Finduilas then he would never see Morwen of Nienor and they will curse him. Glaurung was pleased he had accomplished the errand for his master then burned all about him. He then broke down the mighty bridge.
Túrin hastened to Dor-lómin and found Morwen gone. Túrin then went to the house of Brodda the Easterling. He learned from Aerin that Morwen and Nienor had fled to Doriath "for the lands were freed then from evil by the Black Sword of the South, who now has fallen, they say." Then Túrin's eyes were opened to Glaurung's lies and in rage he slew Brodda and the other Easterling's who were his guests. He then fled. Along his way he decided not to go to Doriath because he believed he cast a shadow wherever he came. He would let Melian keep Morwen and Nienor.
He then began to search for Finduilas but the trail had gone cold. He came upon some of the Men of Brethil that were surrounded by Orcs and delivered them. The men besought him to join them but he told them of his quest for Finduilas. Dorlas, the leader, told the tidings of her death. The Men of Brethil had waylaid the Orcs but the Orcs had at once slain their captives and pinned Finduilas to a tree with a spear. Túrin bade them to lead him to where she was buried and there he fell down into a darkness of grief that was death. Then Dorlas realized this was indeed Mormegil of Nargothrond who was rumored to be the son of Húrin. The woodsmen lifted Túrin up and brought him to their home. Brandir son of Handir ruled them and feared the tidings Dorlas had brought. But being moved by Túrin's woe, he took him into his own house and healed Túrin. Túrin thought that he would put his shadow behind him and remain in Brethil. He took a new name Turambar and laid his black sword down and wielded the bow and the spear.
Now new tidings came to Doriath telling of the sack of Nargothrond and that Mormegil was either slain of cast under a spell and was like stone. Yet it was known to many that Mormegil was Túrin. Morwen was distraught and rode to search for her son. Thingol sent Mablung to guard her but Nienor was bidden to remain behind. But Nienor disguised herself as one of Thingol's people and went with the riding. They came upon Morwen by the banks of the Sirion but could not get her to go back. They came to Amon Ethir, the Hill of Spies and there Mablung set a guard of riders about Morwen and her daughter and forbade them to go further. He and his scouts went down to the Narog.
But Glaurung knew all they did and blinded and confused Mablung's company. Seeing Glaurung, the guards upon Amon Ethir tried to lead Morwen and Nienor away but their horses were maddened by the dragon stench, some were slain and others dashed away. The ladies were lost and of Morwen no sure tidings ever came back to Doriath. Nienor was thrown from her horse, made her way back to Amon Ethir to wait for Mablung, and there looked into the eyes of Glaurung. He put forth his power and having learned who she was he laid a spell of utter darkness and forgetfulness so she could not remember anything at all. Glaurung left her standing alone but Mablung returned and found her. She would not speak but would follow if he took her hand. In great grief he led her away.
As they neared Doriath, Nienor's strength grew. One night they were assailed by Orcs and being awakened by the cries of Orcs, she fled in terror. The Orcs gave chase and the Elves after and they overtook the Orcs and slew them so they could not harm her but Nienor escaped. They found no trace of her. Mablung returned to Menegroth and told the tidings but he still went forth and sought for tidings of Morwen and Nienor.
Nienor ran into the woods until she was spent. She was recovered from Glaurung's spell but she remembered nothing. During a storm she cast herself down in terror and there Turambar found her. He and the woodsmen lifted her up and took her back to their homes and gave her warm food. As soon as she looked on Turambar, she was comforted and would not be parted from him. He asked her of her name, kin, and misadventure but she did not know and began to weep. So Turambar named her Níniel, Tear-Maiden. It remained her name among the woodsmen ever after.
The next day they bore her towards Ephel Brandir but when they came to Dimrost a great shuddering came upon her. She was sick of fever and long she lay while the women of Brethil tended to her. Brandir healed he of her sickness and loved her, but all her heart was given to Turambar. There was peace in Brethil and Turambar's heart turned to Níniel and he asked her to marry him. But she delayed and Brandir tried to restrain her. He revealed to her that Turambar was Túrin son of Húrin and although she did not know the name a shadow fell in her mind. Three years passed and Turambar asked again and vowed to go back to war if he did not wed her. Níniel took him with joy and they were wedded. At the end of the year Glaurung sent Orcs against Brethil but Turambar did nothing for he promised Níniel he would only fight if their homes were assailed. But the woodsmen were being beaten so Dorlas upbraided him for not aiding the people. So Turambar rose, brought forth his black sword and defeated the Orcs. But Glaurung heard that the Black Sword was in Brethil and he began devising a new evil.
In the spring Níniel conceived and the first rumors of Glaurung came. As summer drew near, Glaurung came to the borders of Brethil and the woodland folk were in great fear. Turambar told them it was in vain to go against Glaurung with all their force and that cunning must be used to defeat him. He volunteer to meet Glaurung himself and bade the people to return home. Turambar asked for companions willing to aid him and only Dorlas stepped forth. Dorlas upbraided the people, spoke scorn of Brandir who was shamed before his people and Hunthor went instead for Brandir. The three companions set out.
Níniel could not endure her fear, went after Turambar and many followed her. Brandir tried to dissuade them but to no avail. He renounced his lordship and having nothing but his love for Níniel went after her.
Turambar learned that Glaurung lay at Teiglin and proposed to sneak up underneath him at night. Dorlas's heart failed and he would not go, but Turambar and Hunthor did. But the dragon was aroused and Hunthor was slain. Turambar climbed the cliff, came beneath the dragon and stabbed him in the belly with Gurthang. The sword stuck in the dragon and when Turambar drew it out black blood of the dragon fell on his hand and burned it. Glaurung looked at Turambar with such malice that is smote him down into a dark swoon and he laid as one dead.
The screams of Glaurung could be heard throughout the woods. Brandir believed Turambar to be dead and tried to guide Níniel away. He did for a bit and no one saw. But Níniel would go only to her husband. She came to Turambar, washed his burned hands with tears, bound it and tried to wake him. But Glaurung spoke for the last time and told her she was Nienor daughter of Húrin and that she had found her brother at last. Glaurung died and his malice was lifted from her and she remembered all of her life. Brandir came toward her but she ran and cast herself over Cabad-en-Aras.
Brandir went back to Nen Girith and told the people that Níniel, Turambar, and the dragon were dead. He also told that Nienor was Túrin's sister. As he spoke Túrin came before them, for when the dragon died, his swoon left him. People drew back in fear from him but he tried to comfort them and asked where Níniel was. Brandir told him Níniel was dead but the wife of Dorlas told Túrin how Brandir called Túrin's death good tidings. Turambar was wrathful and believed all that Brandir had done was in malice, begrudging his and Níniel's love. Brandir then reported all he had heard and said that Turambar was a curse unto hi kin and to all that harbored him. Turambar fell into a fury, slew Brandir, and fled into the woods finally coming to Haudh-en-Elleth.
As he sat there Mablung with a company of Elves came and was glad to see Túrin alive. Túrin asked about his mother and sister and Mablung told him of their fate. At last Túrin knew that doom had overtaken him, and that he had slain Brandir unjustly; so that the words of Glaurung were fulfilled in him. He fled from the Elves and came to Cabad-en-Aras. He drew his sword, cast himself on the point of Gurthang and he died.
The Elves lifted up Túrin and found that Gurthang had broken asunder. The Elves and Men of Brethil burned Glaurung and laid Túrin on a high mound where he had fallen and the shards of Gurthang were laid beside him. The Elves sang a lament for the Children of Húrin and a great stone was set upon the mound, and there was carven in runes of Doriath: TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNA and underneath that wrote NIENOR NÍNIEL for it was never known if the waters of Teiglin had taken her. |
|
|
|
|
|
miles2go
Shield Bearer
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 08 Apr 2006
Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 316
|
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 8:05 am |
     |
|
Congratulations on a great opening, Eruname. It was well worth the wait. As last time, I'm afraid my questions will not do your summary justice, but at least they will start the discussion...
Study Questions for Sil Chapt 21
Wow! What a chapter! This could be a movie all by itself. And I thought “Beren and Luthien” was full of stuff. There is no way I can do this story justice, but I will do my best to give us some starting points for discussion. As always, feel free to jump in and branch off from my ideas or even introduce ideas of your own.
1. Turin starts as a very kind, compassionate noble person. By the end of the chapter he is The Terminator. What incidents along the way create this change? Is it gradual, or are there certain events along the way that we can mark?
2. What is it in Turin’s character that inspires such extreme devotion? For example:
--Beleg’s sacrifice and death --Gwindor’s sacrifice and death --Finuilas chooses him over Gwindor and dies for it --Nienor chooses him over Brandir and dies for it. Could there be any basis for this devotion in his bearing and appearance?
and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal Men in the Eldar Days. His speech and bearing were that of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken for one from the great houses of the Noldor; therefore many called him Adanadhel, the Elf-Man.
3. What is the deal with all of Turin’s names? Are there any other characters in Tolkien that have SO many different names? Neithan—“Wronged” Gorthol—“The Dread Helm” Agarwaen—“Son of Umarth” (Bloodstained Son of Ill Fate) Adaendhel—“Elf-man” Mormegil—“Black Sword” Turambar—“Master of Doom”
“Bloodstained Son of Ill Fate.” That is harsh.
Each of these names coincides with a major event. How do they reflect the evolution of his character? Why is it important for him to change his name after every major event in his life? Remember also that Gwindor tells Turin: “the doom lies in yourself, not in your name.”
4.Did But Turin abode long among the outlaws and became their captain remind anyone else of Robin Hood? It is darker though, isn’t it? There is no joviality in Turin’s story from the very first line. Are there any other similarities that shed light on the story?
5.Saeros seemed to be only taunting Turin when he said:
"If the Men of Hithlum are so wild and fell, of what sort are the women of that land? Do they run like deer clad only in their hair?”
and yet there it is 25 pages later
”Nienor escaped [the Orcs]. For she fled in a madness of fear, swifter than a deer, and took off all her clothing as she ran, until she was naked….”
Did Saeros have the gift of a seer, or is someone/something else expressing itself through him? Is it just that Saeros is one piece of the curse puzzle and so he is sensitive to Turin’s future without even realizing it? Is he a pawn of Morgoth, wittingly or unwittingly?
6.Consider these two passages:
but as he stood…there came a great flash of lightning above them; and in its light he looked down on Beleg’s face. Then Turin stood stone still and silent, staring on that dreadful death…
There Turambar found her,…and seeing in a flare of lightning the body as it seemed of a slain maiden lying upon the mound of Finduilas he was stricken to the heart…
The description of each is so similar and quite striking. Initial interpretation begs the obvious. Two major events in Turin’s life hit like bolts of lightening, each of them in their own way leading to his ultimately tragic end. Does it end there, or are there more and important parallels to be drawn?
7. Let’s think about foreshadowing and “doom.” We already saw Saeros prediction of Neinor running naked through the forest. What about some of the others:
When Beleg chooses Anglachel as his gift from Thingol, Melian says, “There is malice in this sword…It will not love the hand it serves; neither will it abide with you long.
I wouldn’t have taken that sword, would you? Why is he so eager to jump to his own destruction? Gwindor tells Finduilas, “Go wither love leads you; yet beware! It is not fitting that the Elder Children of Iluvatar wed with the Younger, nor is it wise, for they are brief and soon to pass, to leave us in widowhood while world lasts. Neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for some high cause of doom that we do not perceive. But this man is not Beren…”
That silly girl goes off anyway and winds up dead.
Do these passages refer to the inherent tendencies humans have to behave recklessly based on emotion without considering the consequences? Or are we back to that old heroic concept of the nobility of rushing off to face certain doom?
8. We can’t forget the very interesting characters of Mim and his sons. First of all, what is the history of the “Petty-Dwarves?” Does ‘petty’ mean the same thing that it does today:
from Webster: 1. insignificant or trivial; 2. contemptibly narrow-minded or mean; 3. subordinate in rank
Those of you who are etymologists, is there something in the history of the word “petty” that will bring the character of these dwarves into sharper focus?
9. Mim’s betrayal is not at all “petty.” It places a major role in the success of the curse, as the death of Beleg is a very important event in the evolution of Turin’s character. Could it be the most important?
10. This is an aside, really, but I’m sure someone knows the answer to my question. In the passage: For few of the Noldor whom Morgoth captured were put to death, because of their skill in forging and in mining for metals and gems; and Gwindor was not slain, but put to labour in the mines of the North. By secret tunnels known only to themselves the mining Elves might sometimes escape…
Mining Elves? I didn’t know there were any elves that mined. I thought they made beautiful stuff from the material mined by the dwarves. Where did the mining elves come from and do they still exist into the Third Age?
11. Was anyone else shocked by the passage:
…and for anguish and wrath at the lies that had deluded him, and hatred of the oppressors of Morwen, a black rage seized him and he slew Brodda in his hall, and other Easterlngs that were his guests.?
In spite of the changes that had taken place in Turin’s character, the violence of this scene really caught me off-guard. Is there some justification for the slaughter of Brodda and his guests that I am missing?
12. It was appropriate, I thought, that a creature of Morgoth should pound the final nail into the lid of Turin’s coffin, so to speak. I noted that Glaurung
withheld his blast and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Turin…straightway [Turin] fell under the binding spell of the lidless eyes of the dragon…
Here we have another lidless eye, like the one that will represent Sauron in the Third Age. And Sauron’s eye is rimmed with flame, while Glaurung withholds his flame to use his eyes to hypnotize Turin. What is the connection here? Is there any connection?
13. Isn’t it interesting that at the end, Anglachel/Gurthang takes revenge for the death of Beleg, even though when he received the sword, Melian told him it would hold malice toward him. Yet when Turin asks the sword to kill him, the sword says:
and from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: ‘Yea I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly’.
First of all, it is unusual for Tolkien to animate an inanimate object. That in itself warrants notice. But that aside, what accounts for the turn around in the sword’s character? Was Melian wrong? Anglachel was responsible for Beleg’s death, as she forsaw, but not through the malice of the sword. The sword was used to kill Beleg because of the curse on Hurin/Turin.
14. I was also very surprised by the “Oedipal” turn the story took. To be sure, it was Oedipus and his mother, not his sister, but the point remains. Turin and Nienor fell in love, married and reproduced in complete innocence and then suffered profound punishment for it. Incest is a very, very serious moral breach, and Tolkien is treading on foreign ground here. Could it be that this particular punishment reflects the fact that the source of the curse is evil? That this curse is not justification for a wrong done, but is in fact visited upon the victims totally out of spite and maliciousness?
Have at it everyone. Can't wait to hear your thoughts and ideas. Miles |
|
|
|
|
|
Falborn
Shield Bearer
Alliance: Stewards of Gondor
Last Visited: 05 Dec 2003
Joined: 30 Mar 2002
Posts: 395
|
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:30 am |
     |
|
Congratulations, Eruname and miles, on your excellent work presenting a very difficult tale. Over the past year I have often thought how hard it would be to summarize and initiate discussion for Turin's story.
Let me start by saying that I have come to love the character of Turin and wholly empathize with the devotion he inspired, but it has taken time for me to come to this opinion, so... a great subject for study.
11. Was anyone else shocked by the passage:
…and for anguish and wrath at the lies that had deluded him, and hatred of the oppressors of Morwen, a black rage seized him and he slew Brodda in his hall, and other Easterlngs that were his guests.?
In spite of the changes that had taken place in Turin’s character, the violence of this scene really caught me off-guard. Is there some justification for the slaughter of Brodda and his guests that I am missing?
Sure, they had stolen his family home and made slaves of his parents household. They were enemies whose treachery at the Nirnaeth had caused his fathers death and the ruin of the kingdoms of Hithlim and Dor-lomin.
I do not think Turin's character changed so much as he was increasingly given choices of evil. Remember he was always a warrior - indeed, that is one of the primary reasons he was sent to Doriath by Morwen, to grow into a warrior. Thingol sent him into battle at a very young age and he killed regularly and was honored for killing enemies from the very beginning. His flaws are his temper and his unwillingness to submit to authority - pride.
Even so, Turin is passionate, and courageous, beautiful, graceful and well spoken. He is generous and his heart is readily moved to pity and remorse. He capable of great love and always ready to sacrifice himself to a greater good.
EDIT: Elrond to Frodo at the end of the Council, page 284, FotR:
...I will say to you that your choice is right, and though the mighty elf-friends of old, Hador and Hurin and Turin and Beren himself were assembled here together your seat should be among them.
By comparing Beren and Turin and Hurin with Turin we can begin to see the effects of Morgoth's power. Turin and Beren were much the same. One can imagine Turin having beren's fate, but Beren was saved by love before his heart was darkened by the effects of evil: self-doubt and dispair. By the time Turin had encountered Finduilas he had lost his mother, killed Saeros and murdered his closest friend by ill fortune.
One can also imagine Turin leading a heroic last stand as his father did to save Turgon, but his fate was not to live in the more ordered times of Hurin and his choices were darker.
In many ways Turin was the greatest of mortals, as Feanor was of the Eldar. They both lost their mothers, too. But Turin is far more sympathetic, IMO. And it seems that Elrond held his memory in honor. |
|
|
|
|
|
Twiggyleaf
Rider of the Mark
Alliance: Fangorn
Last Visited: 10 Mar 2005
Joined: 12 Jun 2002
Posts: 835
Location: Glasgow
|
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:29 am |
     |
|
Thank you Eruname127 and Miles2go. Sterling efforts from both of you. I may come back later but I just wanted to make an suggestion related to question 13.
and from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: ‘Yea I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly’.
The only thing I wanted to comment on regarding this was the sword's intelligence. Miles2go, you quite rightly pointed out that it is not usual for Tolkien to use sentient swords, and I thought: would it be possible that the inelligence of this sword is a projection of the personlality of Turin.
If the sword was in itself evil, and as Melian earlier stated, would not love the hand of its wielder, then surely it would not want to "avenge" Beleg's death. It would be responsible for it.
The very fact that there is no previous mention of the sentience of the sword seems to suggest to me that Turin himself is "creating" a personality for the sword, based on his own psychological turmoil, and that when the sword actually speaks to Turin in this passage, it is in fact a tortured element of Turin speaking to another part of himself - a sort of split personlality syndrome. Any takers for this idea?
|
|
|
|
|
|
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 15 Oct 2004
Joined: 06 Mar 2002
Posts: 2947
|
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:49 am |
     |
|
Thanks Eruname127 and miles2go for an excellent beginning to this section.
miles2go 13. Isn't it interesting that at the end, Anglachel/Gurthang takes revenge for the death of Beleg, even though when he received the sword, Melian told him it would hold malice toward him [...] First of all, it is unusual for Tolkien to animate an inanimate object. That in itself warrants notice. [...] But that aside, what accounts for the turn around in the sword's character? Was Melian wrong? Anglachel was responsible for Beleg's death, as she forsaw, but not through the malice of the sword. The sword was used to kill Beleg because of the curse on Hurin/Turin.
I would argue that imparting degrees of sentience and/or awareness to normally inanimate artefacts is an integral part of JRRT's Creative world. Apart from Gurthang, Sting, Orcrist and Glamdring, we have the One Ring and Elven Rope. [Edit: for evidence of a degree of sentience for the blades from Gondolin, see my post of 19th January, 2003 in Essay on Named Swords]
The One Ring provides a clue as to how this 'intelligence' arises. Sauron, in creating the One Ring, purposely imbued it with some of his native power. In crafting these Elvish swords and other objects possessing limited sentience, I feel that the Elvish craftsmen (perhaps unconsciously) allowed some of their thought to enter into their handiwork. Given that this was done with no intention of domination or rulership, I would imagine that this would not diminish the spirit (fëa) of the Elf (or that the spirit would recover from this loss). This theory is supported by what the Galadhrim tell Pippin (my bolding and underlining). `Are these magic cloaks? ' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder. `I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves. `They are fair garments, and the web is good, for it was made in this land. They are elvish robes certainly, if that is what you mean. Leaf and branch, water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these things under the twilight of Lórien that we love; for we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make.
Farewell to Lórien, The Fellowship of the Ring Why only Gurthang speaks is more conjectural. Because Gurthang was originally Anglachel and was reforged by the Elven Smiths of Nargothrond, this may have strengthened the 'spirit' within it (by adding some of the 'power' of these Elven Smiths). Andúril, although 'reforged', does not 'talk' in the same manner because its original smith was a dwarf (Telchar) or because its original spirit was released when the blade was broken. Possibly Eöl imbued more of his thought into the blade (like Sauron rather than the other Elven-smiths). But as Thingol turned the hilt of Anglachel towards Beleg, Melian looked at the blade; and she said: 'There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves; neither will it abide with you long.'
Of Túrin Turambar, The Silmarillion This malice would reflect the prejudices of Eöl whose thought it echoes. It is likely that Anglachel would only grudgingly serve anyone other than Eöl himself, as Eöl had issues with the Noldor, with Thingol (and would certainly have looked down on Men). So was Melian wrong? I don't think so. Beleg's death could be traced back to an act of 'fate' Beleg drew his sword Anglachel, and with it he cut the fetters that bound Túrin; but fate was that day more strong, for the blade slipped as he cut the shackles, and Túrin's foot was pricked. Then he was aroused into a sudden wakefulness of rage and fear, and seeing one bending over him with naked blade he leapt up with a great cry, believing that Orcs were come to torment him; and grappling with him in the darkness he seized Anglachel, and slew Beleg Cúthalion thinking him a foe.
Of Túrin Turambar, ibid Fate in the shape of a sword that 'slipped'. I doubt that Elven blades 'slip' without reason - and in this case, that reason is the malice of the sword for its bearer(s). It seems likely that Anglachel's character changes when it was remade, Eöl's spirit tempered by those of the Elven-smiths of Nargothrond who reforged the black sword. Certainly Gurthang seems more tractable ('No lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee.').
However the death of Túrin (and the words spoken to him by his sword) predate the rest of the story, being based on the identical episode in the Kalevala (the Finnish national epic poem).
More than any other story found in JRRT's writings, the Tale of Túrin shows its literary influences. In Letter 1 (1914), JRRT first mentions the seeds of this work:I have told you of and introduced him (to his great delight) to the 'Kalevala' the Finnish ballads. Amongst other work I am trying to turn one of the stories -- which is really a very great story and most tragic -- into a short story somewhat on the lines of Morris' romances with chunks of poetry in between.....† ------------------------- † Tolkien's reworking of one of the Kalevala stories, 'The Story of Kullervo', was never finished, but proved to be the germ of the story of Túrin Turambar in The Silmarillion. For Tolkien's account of this, see [Letter] no. 163. However, the project soon transformed into the legends of his own imagined world (although initially still heavily influenced by Northern myths and legends). The germ of my attempt to write legends of my own to fit my private languages was the tragic tale of the hapless Kullervo in the Finnish Kalevala. It remains a major matter in the legends of the First Age (which I hope to publish as The Silmarillion), though as 'The Children of Húrin' it is entirely changed except in the tragic ending.
Letter 257, (1964). Comparison of The Silmarillion account with the original is instructive. See The Death of Kullervo (Lines 319-60 of Runo 36) or in the translation owned by JRRT (the W.F. Kirby Everyman Edition) given below. Kullervo, Kalervo's offspring, Grasped the sharpened sword he carried, 320 Looked upon the sword and turned it, And he questioned it and asked it, And he asked the sword's opinion, If it was disposed to slay him, To devour his guilty body, And his evil blood to swallow. Understood the sword his meaning, Understood the hero's question, And it answered him as follows: "Wherefore at thy heart's desire 330 Should I not thy flesh devour, And drink up thy blood so evil? I who guiltless flesh have eaten, Drank the blood of those who sinned not?" Kullervo, Kalervo's offspring, With the very bluest stockings, On the ground the haft set firmly, On the heath the hilt pressed tightly, Turned the point against his bosom, And upon the point he threw him, 340 Thus he found the death he sought for, Cast himself into destruction. Even so the young man perished, Thus died Kullervo the hero, Thus the hero's life was ended, Perished thus the hapless hero. Then the aged Väinämöinen, When he heard that he had perished, And that Kullervo had fallen, Spoke his mind in words that follow: 350 "Never, people, in the future, Rear a child in crooked fashion, Rocking them in stupid fashion, Soothing them to sleep like strangers. Children reared in crooked fashion, Boys thus rocked in stupid fashion, Grow not up with understanding, Nor attain to man's discretion, Though they live till they are aged, And in body well-developed." 360 However while the story of Kullervo contains several themes that appear in the story of the Children of Húrin (notably the unwitting incestuous relationship between Kullervo and his sister (see Runo XXXV Lines 151-266) and their fates after they realise this), JRRT totally transforms the tale of the brutish, unsympathetic Kullervo. Túrin becomes a tragic hero (in the Greek dramatic sense) and his choices are influenced by the dark thought of Morgoth.
[Edit to add additional link and to fix typographical errors ] |
|
|
|
|
|
miles2go
Shield Bearer
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 08 Apr 2006
Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 316
|
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:55 am |
     |
|
Thanks everyone for the thoughtful and thought-provoking replies.
Falborn, I see your point, and yet I still feel like Turin goes through a significant evolution through the story. When I get a little time, I'll put together the passages that make me feel that way in another post. Even so, I welcome your perspective. Isn't that the point of a discussion? 
twiggyleaf, it also occurred to me after I wrote the study questions that perhaps it was Turin's conscience that was giving voice to Gurthang. Was it only in his mind, or was he delusional and truly thought the sword was speaking? What do you think?
On the other hand, Romestamo, I had forgotten about The Ring (silly me ), which was most definitely credited with sentience completely separate from its bearer. Thus there is a precedent (or an more accurately a "post"-cedent) for sentience in an inanimate object. I also appreciate your quote that the Elves put some of their own spirit into their works, just as Sauron imbued The Ring with his. That makes a lot of sense to me in a people as sensitive as the Elves are. It then also follows that Eol imbued the sword with his bitterness and so made it spiteful.
As for the sword's "change of heart," that is a little harder for me to get my mind around. It did not break when Turin killed Beleg, so it was not re-forged in the same sense that Anduril/Narsil was, and certainly not while it was in the possession of Beleg. Why would it then seek retribution for Beleg's death?
Bringing up the other swords, which do seem to have exceptional power and to some degree strength of will, I wonder if in Tolkien's mind they were not all sentient to some degree, though he did not give them voice.
Also,to All, since I finished the questions, I have been thinking that when you take the story in a broad overview, as opposed to its individual parts, it seems as though all of the players were just puppets at the mercy of Morgoth. Each person involved contributed to the ultimate tragedy, either directly or indirectly. Could it be that Morgoth was more directly involved than just speaking the curse and sitting back to watch it happen? Is it possible that he actually bent the will of those involved to do what he wanted done? The disregard for free will is certainly a hallmark of evil. |
|
|
|
|
|
Morinehtar
Shield Bearer
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 22 Jul 2004
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 179
|
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:05 am |
     |
|
miles2go :10. This is an aside, really, [...] Mining Elves? I didn?t know there were any elves that mined. I thought they made beautiful stuff from the material mined by the dwarves. Where did the mining elves come from and do they still exist into the Third Age?
Earlier in The Silmarillion, JRRT tells us And it came to pass that the masons of the house of Finwë, quarrying in the hills after stone (for they delighted in the building of high towers), first discovered the earth-gems, and brought them forth in countless myriads; and they devised tools for the cutting and shaping of gems, and carved them in many forms. They hoarded them not, but gave them freely, and by their labour enriched all Valinor.
Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië, The Silmarillion The Noldor continued their mining on the Hither Shore in the First Age:[...] But Maeglin prospered and grew great among the Gondolindrim, praised by all, and high in the favour of Turgon; for if he would learn eagerly and swiftly all that he might, he had much also to teach. And he gathered about him all such as had the most bent to smithcraft and mining; and he sought in the Echoriath (which are the Encircling Mountains), and found rich lodes of ore of divers metals. Most he prized the hard iron of the mine of Anghabar in the north of the Echoriath, and thence he got a wealth of forged metal and of steel, so that the arms of the Gondolindrim were made ever stronger and more keen; and that stood them in good stead in the days to come.
Of Maeglin, ibid Whether the Noldor continued to mine into the Second and Third Ages is unknown; it may be that their numbers had diminished to the point where trade filled all their needs for raw materials.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Falborn
Shield Bearer
Alliance: Stewards of Gondor
Last Visited: 05 Dec 2003
Joined: 30 Mar 2002
Posts: 395
|
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:16 pm |
     |
|
Miles said: Falborn, I see your point, and yet I still feel like Turin goes through a significant evolution through the story. When I get a little time, I'll put together the passages that make me feel that way in another post. Even so, I welcome your perspective. Isn't that the point of a discussion?
Absolutely. I agree that Turin's character evolved, btw.
The speech of the black sword also evolved as Tolkien revised the story. In BoLT it is named Gurtholfin. The interchange of Turin and Gurtholfin on page 112, BoLT-II is as follows:
"Hail Gurtholfin, wand of death, for thou art all mens bane and all men's lives fain wouldst thou drink, knowing no lord or faith save the hand that wields thee if it be strong. Thee only have I now - slay me therefore and be swift, for life is a curse, and all my days are creeping foul, and all my deeds are vile, and all I love is dead."
And Gurtholfin said:"That I will gladly do, for blood is blood, and perchance thine is not less sweet than many a one's that thou hast given me ere now"
Sadly, the 'Lay of the Children of Hurin' was not finished and we do not have this exchange in verse. When Tolkien took up the story again in the early 1930's this passage was basically unchanged. As far as I can tell the ending of The Tale of Turen as we know it in The Silmarillion is from the version of the 'Later Annals of Beleriand'(War of the Jewels) or from the 'Narn I Chin Hurin' (Unfinished Tales) both written in the 1950's after the completion of LotR.
There is one written sketch of this passage for the Narn. It is reported by Chrisopher Tolkien on page 160 of The War of the Jewels:
"From no blood will thou shrink. Not from Beleg slain in madness nor from Brandir slain unjustly. That was a wicked deed, thou black sword. Do now a better and take Turin Turambar! Wilt thou slay me swiftly?" And the sword replied, "Thy blood I will gladly drink, for it is of the best, and sweeter it will seem than any thou hast given me. Swift I will slay thee!"
Christopher Tolkien makes number of good comments about Turin's story on pages 119-143, BoLTII. |
|
|
|
|
|
miles2go
Shield Bearer
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 08 Apr 2006
Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 316
|
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:28 pm |
     |
|
Thanks for helping me out with that, Morinehtar. I didn't remember those passages at all.
Falborn, the passages you quoted from the Book of Lost Tales are really interesting though a tad perplexing. If I am reading them right, the attitude of the sword was changed in the final Silmarillion version of the story. The quotes that you have given make it sound that the sword is eager to "drink" Turin's blood because it will enjoy it as it has the other blood it has taken. That is completely different from being glad to take Turin's blood to revenge the death of Beleg.
Is that the way you read it as well? Why the change I wonder? What was Tolkien thinking? |
|
|
|
|
|
Falborn
Shield Bearer
Alliance: Stewards of Gondor
Last Visited: 05 Dec 2003
Joined: 30 Mar 2002
Posts: 395
|
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:28 pm |
     |
|
milestogo wrote:
Falborn, the passages you quoted from the Book of Lost Tales are really interesting though a tad perplexing. If I am reading them right, the attitude of the sword was changed in the final Silmarillion version of the story. The quotes that you have given make it sound that the sword is eager to "drink" Turin's blood because it will enjoy it as it has the other blood it has taken. That is completely different from being glad to take Turin's blood to revenge the death of Beleg.
Is that the way you read it as well? Why the change I wonder? What was Tolkien thinking?
It seems that over time, picking up this part of the story again after 20 years, and after completing LotR, Tolkien came to the understanding that Turin's guilt needed to be articulated before he killed himself. I actually like Turin's statement in the transitional passage better - where he (rather than the sword) names Beleg and Brandir, but the sword's response is lame, IMO. Tolkien resolves it by having the sword name the two victims - and it is darker, far darker, more fitting for the end of the story, IMO.
Remember Christopher Tolkien did have a choice to make among the three versions and the one he chose for the Silmarillion happened to be the version written last. I think he chose with a sure understanding of the story's mood.
There is a comment on Turin's story in the Lost Tales, page 112, BoLT-II, not by Christopher, or JRR, but by the Elf, Eltas, the narrator:
Now thereupon did Eltas cease his speaking, and suddenly all who hearkened wept; but he said thereto: "Yea, 'tis an unhappy tale, for sorrow hath fared ever abraod among Men and doth so still, but in the wild days were very terrible things done and suffered; and yet hath Melkor seldom devised more cruelty, nor do I know a tale more pitiful."
This, of course, recalls the passage in Chapter 11 of The Silmarillion, page 98:
...neither power nor wisdom assuaged their grief, and the knowing of evil in the hour of its being. And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Feanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valor, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike of all the children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him.
There are parallels between the two characters (differences certainly), but the passages bear on the question you ask about the evolution of the converse between Turin and Gurthang. The statement by Eltas was early in the development of the story, written in 1920 or earlier and places the blame on Melkor for Turin's sorrows and mistakes, like the Valar's contemplation of the marring of Feanor. But as Turin's story developed over time, Tolkien, IMO, decided to articulate more blame against Turin himself, increasing Turin's suffering and thus making Melkor's evil even more heinous.
I think Turin is Man. |
|
|
|
|
|
Gorhaur
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Minas Morgul
Last Visited: 25 Nov 2007
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1881
|
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:37 pm |
     |
|
Hi all! An interesting conversation is brewing between you two ! Sorry for interupting; I'm just quickly posting my first thoughts. You two can continue whenever you please !
---
3. What is the deal with all of Turin’s names? Are there any other characters in Tolkien that have SO many different names?
Neithan—"Wronged" Gorthol—"The Dread Helm" Agarwaen—"Son of Umarth" (Bloodstained Son of Ill Fate) Adaendhel—"Elf-man" Mormegil—"Black Sword" Turambar—"Master of Doom"
"Bloodstained Son of Ill Fate." That is harsh.
Each of these names coincides with a major event. How do they reflect the evolution of his character? Why is it important for him to change his name after every major event in his life? Remember also that Gwindor tells Turin: "the doom lies in yourself, not in your name."
Túrin frequently changed his name for a few main reasons; to stay under cover, and to express himself. For instance, when he becomes an outlaw, he changes his name to Neithan to go about unnoticed; he also does this in Nargothrond (Agarwaen son of Úmarth ('Bloodstained son of Ill-fate'), which, IMO, makes sense). Gorthol, Agarwaen, Turambar, and Neithan all have meaning too; he expresses to everyone how "doomed" he is by changing his name.
In Nargothrond, he changes his name to Mormegil ('Black Sword') because he "rejected his former name" as JRRT states in HoME:
290-5 [490-5] During this time Túrin dwelt in Nargothrond. Beleg's sword, wherewith he was slain, was reforged for Túrin; and Túrin rejected his former name, and he called himself Mormael†, Black Sword, but his sword he named Gurtholfin‡, Wand of Death....
The Lost Road and Other Writings (HoME V)- 'Later Annals of Beleriand' (p. 153)
----------------
† Mormael was later changed to Mormegil. ‡ Gurtholfin might have been related to Gorthol?? For some more information, see this: The Many Names of Turin Turamarth or Turin the Hapless-- A Study.
14. I was also very surprised by the "Oedipal" turn the story took....
JRRT obscurely comments on this in Letters:
[...]There are other stories almost equally full in treatment, and equally independent and yet linked to the general history. There is the Children of Húrin, the tragic tale of Túrin Turambar and his sister Níniel - of which Túrin is the hero: a figure that might be said (by people who like that sort of thing, though it is not very useful) to be derived from elements in Sigurd the Volsung, Oedipus, and the Finnish Kullervo....
The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien- Letter #131 (p. 150) [Edit:]Also, before I forget, I want to briefly comment on study question #1 [bolding for emphasis]: 1. Turin starts as a very kind, compassionate noble person. By the end of the chapter he is The Terminator. What incidents along the way create this change? Is it gradual, or are there certain events along the way that we can mark?
I think Túrin let his anger boil up inside him as time went on until he exploded every once in a while. He went through a lot of tough things (accidentally killing his best friend, being betrayed, being raised without a father, etc.), and I don't blame him for occasionaly blowing up (like he did against Brodda and the Easterlings in Hithlum (as you mentioned in study question #11)).
----------- |GORH| -----------
[Edited to add link.] |
|
|
|
|
|
Gamil_Zirak
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Gondor
Last Visited: 20 Jul 2004
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 1276
|
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:00 pm |
     |
|
14. I was also very surprised by the “Oedipal” turn the story took. To be sure, it was Oedipus and his mother, not his sister, but the point remains. Turin and Nienor fell in love, married and reproduced in complete innocence and then suffered profound punishment for it. Incest is a very, very serious moral breach, and Tolkien is treading on foreign ground here. Could it be that this particular punishment reflects the fact that the source of the curse is evil? That this curse is not justification for a wrong done, but is in fact visited upon the victims totally out of spite and maliciousness?
an aside on this: What ever happened to their baby? I've never heard what happened to him (or is it her) after Turin took his life with Gurthang. Any ideas? |
|
|
|
|
|
Morinehtar
Shield Bearer
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 22 Jul 2004
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 179
|
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:52 pm |
     |
|
Gamil_Zirak :an aside on this: What ever happened to their baby? I've never heard what happened to him (or is it her) after Turin took his life with Gurthang. Any ideas?
There is no need to speculate. Nienor / Níniel committed suicide before the babe was born . |
|
|
|
|
|
Falborn
Shield Bearer
Alliance: Stewards of Gondor
Last Visited: 05 Dec 2003
Joined: 30 Mar 2002
Posts: 395
|
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:25 am |
     |
|
Turin first speaks to the black sword in 'The Lay of the Children of Hurin', immediately after he uses it to kill Beleg mistakenly. From The lays of Beleriand, pages 66-7, lines 1140-78 (Flinding is the earlier name for Gwindor):
Flinding go Fuilin faithful hearted the brand of Beleg with blood stained lifted with loathing from the leafy mould, and he turned to Turin yet tranced brooding, and softly said he: 'O son of Hurin, unhappy-hearted, what helpeth it to sit thus in sorrow's silent torment without hope or counsel?' But Hurin's son, by those words wakened, wildly answered: 'I abide by Beleg: nor bid me leave him, thou voice unfaithful vain are all things. O Death dark handed, draw now near me; if remorse may move thee, from mourning loosed crush me conquered to his cold bosom!' Flinding answered and fear left him for wrath and pity: 'Arouse thy pride! Not thus unthinking on Thangoradrim's height enchained did Hurin speak.' 'Curse thy comfort! Less cold were steel. If death comes not to the death craving, I will seek the sword. The sword - where lies it? O cold and cruel, where cowerest now, murderer of thy master? Amends shalt work, and slay me swift, O sleep-giver.' 'Look not, luckless, thy life to steal, nor sully anew his sword unhappy in the flesh of a friend whose freedom seeking he fell by fate, by foes unwounded. Yea, think that amends, are thine to make, his wronged blade with wrath appeasing, its thirst cooling in the thrice abhorred blood of Bauglir's baleful legions. Is the feud achieved thy fathers chains on the laid, or lessened by this last evil? Dream not that Morgoth will mourn thy death' Or thy dirges chant the dread Glamhoth- less would like them thy living hatred and vows of vengeance; nor vain is courage, though victory seldom be valour's ending.'
Very fine verse, IMO. Stirring.
In a different take on the same events, Tolkien writes about Turin's mourning of Beleg's death in a passage from BoLT-II on , pages 80-1:
and as he stood, by the light of the lamp, he saw the white face of Beleg lieing nigh his feet with pieced throat, and he stood as one stricken to stone, and such was the look on his face that Flinding dared not speak for a long while. Indeed, little mind had he for words, for by that light had he also seen the fate of Beleg and was very bitter at heart. At length it seemed to Flinding that the Orcs were astir, and so it was for the shouts of Turin had come to them; wherefore he said to Turin: "the Orcs are upon us, let us flee", but Turin answered not, and Flinding shook him, bidding him gather his wits or perish, and then Turin did as he was bid but yet as one dazed, and stooping he raised Beleg and kissed his mouth.
....Now then did Flinding have space to tell Turin all he knew and of his meeting with Beleg, and the floods of Turin's tears were loosed, and he wept bitterly, for Beleg had been his comrade in many deeds; and this was the third anguish that befell Turin, not did he lose the mark of that sorrow his long life...
In that time was Turin's hair touched with grey, despite his few years...
In the Lay of the Children of Hurin, Turin's mourning is expanded and Beleg speaks to Turin in a dream-vision, pages 74-5, lines 1640-98:
Then his voice vanished veiled in mourning, and lo! tears trickled on Turin's face till loosed at last were the leashed torrents of his whelming woe. Long while he wept soundless shaken the sand clutching with gripping fingers in grief unfathomed. But Flinding the faithful feared no longer; no comfort cold he kindly found, for sleep swept him into slumber dead. There a singing voice sweetly vexed him and he woke and wondered: the watchfire faded: the night was aging, naught was moving but a song upsoaring in the soundless dark went strong and stern to the starlit heaven. 'Twas Turin that towering on the tarns margin, up high o'er the head of the hushed water now falling faintly let flare and echoe a song of sorrow and sad splendour, the dirge of Beleg's deathless glory. There wondrous wove he words enchanted, that woods and waters waked and answered, the rocks were wrung with ruth for Beleg. That song he sang is since remembered, by Gnomes renewed in Nargothrond it widely has wakened warfain armies to battle with Bauglir 'The Bowman's Friendship'
'Tis told that Turin then turned him back and fared to Flinding, and flung him down to sleep soundless till the sun mounted to the high heavens and hasted westward. A vision he viewed in the vast spaces of slumber roving: it seemed he roamed up the bleak boulders of a bare hillside to a cup outcarven in a cruel hollow, whose broken brink bushes limbwracked by the North-winds knife in knotted anguish did fringe forbidding. There black unfriendly was a dark thicket, a dell of thorn-trees with yews mingled that the years had fretted. The leafless limbs they lifted hopeless were blotched and blackened, barkless,naked, a lifeless remnant of the levins flame, charred chill fingers changeless pointing to the cold Twilight. There called he longing: 'O Beleg, my brother, O Beleg, tell me where is buried thy body in these bitter regions?"- and the echoes always him answered 'Beleg'; yet a veiled voice vague and distant he caught that called like a cry at night o'er the sea's silence: 'Seek no longer. My bow is rotten in the barrow ruinous; my grove is burned by grim lightning; here dread dwelleth, none dare profane this angry earth, Orc nor goblin; none gain the gate of the gloomy forest by this perilous path; pass they may not, yet my life has winged to the long waiting in the halls of the Moon o'er the hills of the sea. Courage be thy comfort comrade lonely!"
Courage be thy comfort, indeed.
EDIT: Beleg's gruesome death was the fourth tragic loss for Turin: his father and his future fief; his mother and home; his foster father, Thingol and his adopted home, Doriath; and then Beleg, the brother of his heart. |
|
|
|
|
|
Morinehtar
Shield Bearer
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 22 Jul 2004
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 179
|
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:18 pm |
     |
|
miles2go :As for the sword's "change of heart," that is a little harder for me to get my mind around. It did not break when Turin killed Beleg, so it was not re-forged in the same sense that Anduril/Narsil was, and certainly not while it was in the possession of Beleg. Why would it then seek retribution for Beleg's death?
While the sword did not break, it lost its edge and its usefulness following the slaying of Beleg. It was then, in essence, 're-made' (re-born?) for Túrin by the Elven-smiths of Nargothrond.And Gwindor gave the sword Anglachel into his hands, and Túrin knew that it was heavy and strong and had great power; but its blade was black and dull and its edges blunt. Then Gwindor said: 'This is a strange blade, and unlike any that I have seen in Middle-earth. It mourns for Beleg even as you do. But be comforted; for I return to Nargothrond of the house of Finarfin, and you shall come with me, and be healed and renewed.' [...] The sword Anglachel was forged anew for him by cunning smiths of Nargothrond, and though ever black its edges shone with pale fire; and he named it Gurthang, Iron of Death.
Of Túrin Turambar, The Silmarillion Different Smiths, each contributing their thoughts and emotions into the sword. It is little wonder that this might ameliorate some of the malice left by Eöl and alter the character of the weapon. However, some of the original thought and identity remain of Anglachel such that it remembers the blood of Beleg my master and agrees to slay Túrin swiftly in retribution, not 'revenge'. ------------------------- Falborn :Beleg's gruesome death was the fourth tragic loss for Turin: his father and his future fief; his mother and home; his foster father, Thingol and his adopted home, Doriath; and then Beleg, the brother of his heart.
The Narn I Hîn Húrin (in Unfinished Tales) begins a list of the sorrows of Túrin (like the Seven Sorrows of the Virgin Mary), although the list was never completed:Now Túrin was made ready for the journey, and he bade farewell to his mother, and departed in secret with his two companions. But when they bade Túrin turn and look back upon the house of his father, then the anguish of parting smote him like a sword, and he cried: "Morwen, Morwen, when shall I see you again?" But Morwen standing on her threshold heard the echo of that cry in the wooded hills, and she clutched the post of the door so that her fingers were torn. This was the first of the sorrows of Túrin. [...] But Morwen would not depart from her house, for her heart was yet unchanged and her pride still high; moreover Nienor was a babe in arms. Therefore she dismissed the Elves of Doriath with her thanks, and gave them in gift the last small things of gold that remained to her, concealing her poverty; and she bade them take back to Thingol the Helm of Hador. But Túrin watched ever for the return of Thingol's messengers; and when they came back alone he fled into the woods and wept, for he knew of Melian's bidding and he had hoped that Morwen would come. This was the second sorrow of Túrin.[...] I suspect JRRT ceased to enumerate them because there are so many... However it is surprising that the list does not begin with the loss of his sister Urwen (Lalaith).
[Edit: OT Falborn, if you use the [_pre_] [_/pre_ ] tags (without underscores) for poetry, the text stays in the format in which it is typed (including spaces) and does not need to be italicised as it is in ASCI characters . -R- ] |
|
|
|
|
|
Gorhaur
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Minas Morgul
Last Visited: 25 Nov 2007
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1881
|
Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 4:03 pm |
     |
|
Morinehtar:
The Narn I Hîn Húrin (in Unfinished Tales) begins a list of the sorrows of Túrin (like the Seven Sorrows of the Virgin Mary), although the list was never completed:
Now Túrin was made ready for the journey, and he bade farewell to his mother, and departed in secret with his two companions. But when they bade Túrin turn and look back upon the house of his father, then the anguish of parting smote him like a sword, and he cried: "Morwen, Morwen, when shall I see you again?" But Morwen standing on her threshold heard the echo of that cry in the wooded hills, and she clutched the post of the door so that her fingers were torn. This was the first of the sorrows of Túrin. [...] But Morwen would not depart from her house, for her heart was yet unchanged and her pride still high; moreover Nienor was a babe in arms. Therefore she dismissed the Elves of Doriath with her thanks, and gave them in gift the last small things of gold that remained to her, concealing her poverty; and she bade them take back to Thingol the Helm of Hador. But Túrin watched ever for the return of Thingol's messengers; and when they came back alone he fled into the woods and wept, for he knew of Melian's bidding and he had hoped that Morwen would come. This was the second sorrow of Túrin.[...] Thank you for pointing that out; it's too bad that Tolkien never finished this . I also wonder why Tolkien didn't consider the death of Urwen (Lalaith) a sorrow of Túrin (as you mentioned). Maybe he just forgot to include it in his list.
-----
miles2go:
5.Saeros seemed to be only taunting Turin when he said:
"If the Men of Hithlum are so wild and fell, of what sort are the women of that land? Do they run like deer clad only in their hair?"
and yet there it is 25 pages later
"Nienor escaped [the Orcs]. For she fled in a madness of fear, swifter than a deer, and took off all her clothing as she ran, until she was naked...."
Did Saeros have the gift of a seer, or is someone/something else expressing itself through him? Is it just that Saeros is one piece of the curse puzzle and so he is sensitive to Turin’s future without even realizing it? Is he a pawn of Morgoth, wittingly or unwittingly? and
12. It was appropriate, I thought, that a creature of Morgoth should pound the final nail into the lid of Turin’s coffin, so to speak. I noted that Glaurung
withheld his blast and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Turin...straightway [Turin] fell under the binding spell of the lidless eyes of the dragon...
Here we have another lidless eye, like the one that will represent Sauron in the Third Age. And Sauron’s eye is rimmed with flame, while Glaurung withholds his flame to use his eyes to hypnotize Turin. What is the connection here? Is there any connection? I think that both of these are coincidences. This is just my own opinion.
I don't think that Saeros had the gift of a seer as you suggested, nor do I believe that he was a pawn of Morgoth. Also, I don't think Glaurungs "lidless eye" and Sauron's "lidless eye" are connected in any way.
Just my two other cents , -Gor- |
|
|
|
|
|
Falborn
Shield Bearer
Alliance: Stewards of Gondor
Last Visited: 05 Dec 2003
Joined: 30 Mar 2002
Posts: 395
|
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:26 am |
     |
|
Thank you, Morinehtar. I edited the verse after taking your tip. It looks and reads much better.
For those unfamiliar with the form of those verses, I understand that they are based on Anglo-Saxon poetry. The space is useful in understanding the sounds that are related to each other from line to line.
Typically, there will be a sound after the space which is repeated in the next line before the space. When I read the poem and make the paired sounds similar or the same the intended rythm of the verses starts to flow.
Also typically, there will be a fair amount of alliteration at the beginning and end of each sentence.
I find this poetry to be a lot of fun to read. Bilbo's poem about Earendil is similar but it has more internal rhymes.
Is the feud achieved thy fathers chains on the laid, or lessened by this last evil? Dream not that Morgoth will mourn thy death or thy dirges chant the dread Glamhoth - less would like them thy living hatred and vows of vengeance; nor vain is courage, though victory seldom be valour's ending. The quote starts with a couple of alliterative f's, but look at that string of five alliterative v's at the close.
...nor vain is courage though victory seldom be valour's ending. Flinding (Gwindor) is doubtless speaking of Turin's father, bound but still defiant - hero of the slaves of Thangoradrim. And with elvish wisdom says courage alone is not enough to prevail, defeat is inevitable, but even so courage is not in vain. One of the lmore important points of the story and of the Silm, IMO.
Here Turin does not commit suicide, but at the end he does. Carrying Morgoth's curse was he right to kill himself? |
|
|
|
|
|
Armenelos
Mariner
Alliance: House of Elwe
Last Visited: 09 Dec 2008
Joined: 28 Dec 2000
Posts: 6614
Location: Tampa, FL
|
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:29 pm |
     |
|
1. Turin starts as a very kind, compassionate noble person. By the end of the chapter he is The Terminator. What incidents along the way create this change? Is it gradual, or are there certain events along the way that we can mark?
i think that as he grew older, the effect of Morgoth's curse turned Turin further into what he became. there are a lot of people that agree upon the fact that Turin kind of turned into a "bad guy" so to speak, but i really have always argued that he was the victim. the victim of Morgoth's curse. if there was no curse, do you think Turin's life would have played out the same way? |
|
|
|
|
|
Falborn
Shield Bearer
Alliance: Stewards of Gondor
Last Visited: 05 Dec 2003
Joined: 30 Mar 2002
Posts: 395
|
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:47 pm |
     |
|
Armenelosi wroteI think that as he grew older, the effect of Morgoth's curse turned Turin further into what he became. there are a lot of people that agree upon the fact that Turin kind of turned into a "bad guy" so to speak....
But not Elrond, as discussed above, and not the Valar. In at least two versions of the story Turambar becomes an immortal and lives with the Ainur in Valinor. In the battle at the end of the world Turin fights at Eonwe's side and takes his revenge on Morgoth, killing him with Gorthang.
If you and miles are going to label Turin a 'bad guy' or 'the terminator' make your cases. Labeling him so misses a lot though, IMO.
... but i really have always argued that he was the victim. the victim of Morgoth's curse. if there was no curse, do you think Turin's life would have played out the same way?
The answer is clearly no. Look at Tuor. He and Turin are cousins that share very close bloodlines (in the Silmarillion, bloodlines are very nearly destiny). But Tuor is blessed by Ulmo while Turin is cursed by Morgoth. I don't think there can be any doubt that Tolkien intended them to be a contrasting pair. Compare Tuors happiness and the fulfillment of his (presumed) death at sea with Turin's anguish.
I would argue that Turin never falls, never gives in to Morgoth and is as courageous and defiant as his father all the way to the end, when he realizes that, bearing Morgoth's curse, he is ruinous to himself and to everyone he encounters and in the end, bravely, unfallen, he kills himself, unwilling to be a further instrument of Morgoth's evil. We see Hurin later come to the same conclusion about himself.
I think, at the end, Gorthang is speaking with Morgoth's voice, like Glaurung, cursing Turin even in the hour of his death. |
|
|
|
|
|
Gorhaur
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Minas Morgul
Last Visited: 25 Nov 2007
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1881
|
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:52 pm |
     |
|
Armenelos was disagreeing with all of the people that think Turin was a "bad guy." At least that's what I thought after reading his comments thoroughly....He labeled him a "victim" instead of a "Terminator." |
|
|
|
|
|
Armenelos
Mariner
Alliance: House of Elwe
Last Visited: 09 Dec 2008
Joined: 28 Dec 2000
Posts: 6614
Location: Tampa, FL
|
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:53 am |
     |
|
yes Gorhaur.
i disagree, Falborn, i'm sorry. everyone makes mistakes, and bad things happen, but a lot of the things in Turin's case, i believe, were brought on by the curse. i might even be able to come halfway and say that some of it was his own fault, but i still think that his life was being pushed by the invisble will of Morgoth. |
|
|
|
|
|
Morinehtar
Shield Bearer
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 22 Jul 2004
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 179
|
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:09 am |
     |
|
Hi Armenelos, welcome to this forum .
Like you, Gorhaur and Falborn I cannot see Túrin as a 'Terminator' figure. Except when a child, he was not one who would love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. Túrin had turned his back on war for the love of Níniel and when Glaurung sent Orcs of his dominion against Brethil [...] Túrin sat at home deedless, for he had promised to Níniel that he would go to battle only if their homes were assailed. Túrin had to be reproached by Dorlas for abandoning his adopted people before he resumed fighting. Certainly he was the focus of Morgoth's thought and malice; and evil followed wherever he went but to blame Túrin for this evil is a bit like blaming the lightning rod for attracting a lightning bolt...
Falborn I think, at the end, [Gurthang] is speaking with Morgoth's voice, like Glaurung, cursing Turin even in the hour of his death.
Gurthang is not cursing Túrin - it answers Túrin's question honestly and directly, and while there is an element of just retribution in what Gurthang says, there is no malice or sense of gloating. Gurthang breaks after taking Túrin's life, a closing of the ledger. Thus I consider identifying Gurthang's voice as Morgoth's is unlikely.
Tuor is thought by JRRT to have reached Aman and to have been granted the life of the Eldar. For a discussion of his fate, see Was Tuor Immortal?. |
|
|
|
|
|
Armenelos
Mariner
Alliance: House of Elwe
Last Visited: 09 Dec 2008
Joined: 28 Dec 2000
Posts: 6614
Location: Tampa, FL
|
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:35 am |
     |
|
ooc: thank you, Morinehtar, for the welcome. i didn't think i'd ever use this forum, but i have internet access at work now, so i have lot more time to be here.
thanks also for making it more clear what i was trying to say. i guess wilko was right in calling me Mr. Enigmatic. |
|
|
|
|
|
Falborn
Shield Bearer
Alliance: Stewards of Gondor
Last Visited: 05 Dec 2003
Joined: 30 Mar 2002
Posts: 395
|
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:58 am |
     |
|
{b}Armenelos wrote:
i disagree, Falborn, i'm sorry.
everyone makes mistakes, and bad things happen, but a lot of the things in Turin's case, i believe, were brought on by the curse. i might even be able to come halfway and say that some of it was his own fault, but i still think that his life was being pushed by the invisble will of Morgoth.
Armenelos I am sorry to have misunderstood and mischaracterized your earlier post.
I guess I don't understand your post, but I agree with your statement above that his life was pushed by the invisable will of Morgoth and thought I had said about the same thing in my last post.
So... what is that I have said about Turin that you disagree with?
I do very much like the character Turin. That he is an attractive hero is repeatedly demonstrated throughtout his story. But if one were going to judge Turin 'bad' or as having become 'bad' you would look at:
1. Doriath: Turin, still a teen, has come back hungry from battle and is taunted by Saeros who makes slurs against Turin's race and dunwitting ridicules Turin's mother and sister. Later he is attacked by Saeros and but he turns the tables and chases him through the woods where Saeros falls and dies. Turin is judged blameless by Thingol, but he is unwilling to return to Doriath - understandable decision by a sensitive teen who is an outsider among the Elves.
passing over the death of Beleg a tragedy for Turin for which he is blameless
2. Nargothrond: by Turin's counsel Orodreth pursues a policy of open war against Morgoth and builds a bridge across Narog. The responsibility for this decision belongs to Orodreth, the King, not Turin, who is hardly more than a child compared to Orodreth, born in Aman. Turin has a natural and even admirable desire to fight Morgoth as strongly as possible. Orodreth would have known about the curse from Gwindor as well.
3. Dor-lomin: Turin kills Brodda, an easterling, who was a leader of those who had betrayed the Union of Maedros at the Nirnaeth and come to Dor-lomin and stolen his fathers lands and made his family paupers and thir household into slaves.
4. Brethil: Turin reluctantly leaves his home and pregnant wife to take up his sword to attempt to stop Glaurung from destroying Brethil. After giving his adopted people wise advice, he ultimately faces the Dragon alone and in an act of enormous courage succeds in killing him. He is overcome but he awakens and and returns triumphant to his people who he has saved, his wife and home. But then, he is maliciously told by Belig (who has just murdered Dorlas) that his marriage and fatherhood were unnatural and that his wife and child are dead. Turin kills Belig.
If Turin had faced the judgement of a jury of his peers he would have been quickly absolved of any crime (IMO) except - he had taken his sister to wife and impregnated her. We have already seen Idril's reaction to Maeglin's attraction. My guess is that Turin's peers would have shunned him for his unwitting incest, his only happiness turned repugnant. That was what caused him to finally judge himself better dead.
And Morgoth gloats through the sword Gorthang, IMO. It occurs to me though that Glaurung's evil spirit is speaking through the sword. They do sound very much alike.
EDIT: Active discussion - Yayy!
Thanks for the link about Tuor, Morinehtar! Our very own Romestamo, too! Why am I not surprised?
We cross posted about the possiblitity of the swords voice being Morgoth. I've gone back to look at the swords words: "Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly...". Sounds like gloating to me. And the insinuation of guilt sounds exacly like Glaurung's insinuations to me.
Oh, and welcome, Armenelos! Clearly Morinehtar and Gorhaur have demonstrated better manners than me, but my welcome to you, though late, is wholehearted all the same! |
|
|
|
|
|
Armenelos
Mariner
Alliance: House of Elwe
Last Visited: 09 Dec 2008
Joined: 28 Dec 2000
Posts: 6614
Location: Tampa, FL
|
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:05 am |
     |
|
So... what is that I have said about Turin that you disagree with?
i guess it would be this phrase:
I would argue that Turin never falls, never gives in to Morgoth and is as courageous and defiant as his father all the way to the end, when he realizes that, bearing Morgoth's curse, he is ruinous to himself and to everyone he encounters and in the end, bravely, unfallen, he kills himself, unwilling to be a further instrument of Morgoth's evil. We see Hurin later come to the same conclusion about himself. i don't think that Turin was defiant like his father was, because, unlike his father, he did not know that there was a curse, or that some stronger will is pushing him in the wrong directions. had he known, he may have withstood some things, but it just was not apparent that it was more than bad luck. i don't think that he killed himself to keep from being Morgoth's instrument, because he did not know or think that he was Morgoth's instrument. he killed himself because of the reason that you already gave:
If Turin had faced the judgement of a jury of his peers he would have been quickly absolved of any crime (IMO) except - he had taken his sister to wife and impregnated her. We have already seen Idril's reaction to Maeglin's attraction. My guess is that Turin's peers would have shunned him for his unwitting incest, his only happiness turned repugnant. That was what caused him to finally judge himself better dead. that and the fact that he had gone through the grief of losing Finduilas AND Nienor, both women that he had fallen in love with, not to mention the grief set upon him by all the other evils of that day.
And Morgoth gloats through the sword Gorthang, IMO. It occurs to me though that Glaurung's evil spirit is speaking through the sword. They do sound very much alike.
We cross posted about the possiblitity of the swords voice being Morgoth. I've gone back to look at the swords words: "Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly...". Sounds like gloating to me. And the insinuation of guilt sounds exacly like Glaurung's insinuations to me.
i don't think that the two sound alike at all. Morgoth's message was transported through Glaurung's last words, but the sword, i believe was it's own entity. it drank his blood gladly, so that it would no longer be a tool of misuse and harm upon the innocent. |
|
|
|
|
|
Gamil_Zirak
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Gondor
Last Visited: 20 Jul 2004
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 1276
|
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:53 pm |
     |
|
Also, why would Morgoth gloat over losing an instument (Turin) that gave him victory against Nargothrond, one of three remaining outpost of elves of importance to war; help eliminate all but two of the last lords of the Edain, Hurin and Tuor; and set the course for the death of one of the remaining realms, Doriath, and lords, Hurin? |
|
|
|
|
|
Falborn
Shield Bearer
Alliance: Stewards of Gondor
Last Visited: 05 Dec 2003
Joined: 30 Mar 2002
Posts: 395
|
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:02 am |
     |
|
Armenelos posted:
'i don't think that Turin was defiant like his father was, because, unlike his father, he did not know that there was a curse, or that some stronger will is pushing him in the wrong directions. had he known, he may have withstood some things, but it just was not apparent that it was more than bad luck. i don't think that he killed himself to keep from being Morgoth's instrument, because he did not know or think that he was Morgoth's instrument.'
On page 209 of The Silmarillion, this exchange between Turin and Gwindor at the Eithel Irvin:
"Who are you?" said Turin.
"A wandering Elf, a thrall escaped, whom Beleg met and comforted, " said Gwindor. Yet once I was Gwindor, son of Guilin, a lord of Nargothrond, until I went to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and was enslaved in Angband."
"Then you have seen Hurin, son of Galdor, the warrior of Dor-lomin? said Turin.
"I have not seen him," said Gwindor. "But rumor of him runs through Angband that he still defies Morgoth; and Morgoth has laid a curse on him and all his kin."
"That I do believe," said Turin. |
|
|
|
|
|
Falborn
Shield Bearer
Alliance: Stewards of Gondor
Last Visited: 05 Dec 2003
Joined: 30 Mar 2002
Posts: 395
|
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:43 am |
     |
|
Gorhaur commented on Urwen Lalaith, the sister who died when Turin was five. There is an expanded version of this event in the Narn on pages 58-60 of the Unfinished Tales:
'...Turin son of Hurin was yet only five years old, and Urwen his sister was three at the beginning of spring. Her hair was like the yellow lilies in the grass and she ran in the fields, and her laughter was like the sound of a merry stream that came singing out of the hills next to her father's house. Nen Lalaith it was named, and after it all the people called the child Lalaith, and their hearts were glad when she was among them.
But Turin was loved less than she. He was dark-haired as his mother, and she promised to be like her in mood, also; for he was not merry, and spoke little, though he learned to speak early and ever seemed older than his years. Turin was slow to forget injustice or mockery; but the fire of his father was also in him, and he could be sudden and fierce. Yet he was quick to pity, and the hurts or sadness of living things could move him to tears; and he was like his father in this also, for Morwen was stern, with others as with herself. He loved his mother, for her speech was forthright and plain.... At that time all the warmth of his heart was for Lalaith his sister; but he played with her seldom, and liked better to guard her unseen and to watch her going upon grass or under tree...
...the Evil Breath came to Dor-lomin and Turin took sick, and lay long in a fever and dark dream. And when he was healed, for such was his fate and the strength of life that was in him, he asked for Lalaith. But his nurse answered, "Speak no more of Lalaith, son of Hurin, but of your sister Urwen, you must ask tidings of your mother."
And when Morwen came to came to him, Turin said to her: "I am no longer sick, and I wish to see Urwen; but why must I not say Lalaith any more?"
"Because Urwen is dead, and laughter is stilled in this house," she answered. But you live, son of Morwen; and so does the Enemy who has done this to us."
She did not seek to comfort him any more than herself; for she met her grief in silence and coldness of heart. But Hurin mourned openly, and he took up his harp, and would make a song of lamentation; but he could not, and he broke his harp, and going out he lifted up his hand toward the North, crying: "Marrer of Middle-earth, would that I might see thee face to face, and mar thee as my lord Fingolphin did!"
But Turin wept bitterly at night alone, though to Morwen he never again spoke the name of his sister.' |
|
|
|
|
|
Gorhaur
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Minas Morgul
Last Visited: 25 Nov 2007
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1881
|
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:02 pm |
     |
|
Falborn: Gorhaur commented on Urwen Lalaith, the sister who died when Turin was five.
Morinehtar commented on it first. This is what he said (regarding the sorrows of Túrin):
I suspect JRRT ceased to enumerate them because there are so many... However it is surprising that the list does not begin with the loss of his sister Urwen (Lalaith). And this is what I said (directly after):
Thank you for pointing that out; it's too bad that Tolkien never finished this . I also wonder why Tolkien didn't consider the death of Urwen (Lalaith) a sorrow of Túrin (as you mentioned). Maybe he just forgot to include it in his list. Thank you for the extra information anyways ! |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Goto:
|
|
| Goto page 1, 2 Next |
|
|
| The time now is Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:26 pm ... All times are GMT - 8 Hours
|
|
| |