Bilbo25
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 9:05 pm |
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Now these topics were discussed before I first joined the boards. I have tried sthe search option and it appears that the threads dealing with this topic were deleted because I can no longer find them that being said onto my questions. All who have opinions please feel free to post them
Question 1: It is known that the dwarves of Durin's Folk where known as Longbeards were descriptive names given for any of the other six dwarven Houses?
Question 2: What is known of the House of Durin between the Awakening of Durin the Deathless and Durin VI. Is it possible that reigned one after the other in sucession.
Question 3: Is Durin VII going to be an actual king or is he in fact a constellation reflected into the Mirrormere at a certain time of year.
Question 4. Why did Dwalin live to such an advanced age
Question 5: Is anything known of the other houses of dwarves and their fates.
Question 6. Is it possible that there were some refugees from Nogrod and Belegost to survive the sinking of Beierland
Peace, B25 |
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 10:51 pm |
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I'll tackle these in separate posts.
Bilbo25 :It is known that the dwarves of Durin's Folk where known as Longbeards were descriptive names given for any of the other six dwarven Houses?
Given in an essay given in HOME XII:In the Dwarvish traditions of the Third Age the names of the places where each of the Seven Ancestors had 'awakened' were remembered; but only two of them were known to Elves and Men of the West: the most westerly, the awakening place of the ancestors of the Firebeards and Broadbeams; and that of the ancestors of the Longbeards †, the eldest in making and awakening. The first had been in the north of the Ered Lindon, the great eastern wall of Beleriand, of which the Blue Mountains of the Second and later ages were the remnant; the second had been Mount Gundabad(in origin a Khuzdul name), which was therefore revered by the Dwarves, and its occupation in the Third Age by the Orks of Sauron was one of the chief reasons for their great hatred of the Orks ‡. The other two places were eastward, at distances as great or greater than that between the Blue Mountains and Gundabad: the arising of the Ironfists and Stiffbeards, and that of the Blacklocks and Stonefoots. Though these four points were far sundered the Dwarves of different kindreds were in communication and in the early ages often held assemblies of delegates at Mount Gundabad. In times of great need even the most distant would send help to any of their people; as was the case in the great War against the Orks (Third Age 2793 to 2799). Though they were loth to migrate and make permanent dwellings or 'mansions' far from their original homes, except under great pressure from enemies or after some catastrophe such as the ruin of Beleriand, they were great and hardy travellers and skilled road-makers; also all the kindreds shared a common language ¶. ------------------------- † He alone had no companions; cf. 'he slept alone' (III.352). [The reference is to the beginning of Appendix A, III. The passage in the text is difficult to interpret. My father refers here to four places of awakening of the Seven Ancestors of the Dwarves: those of 'the ancestors of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams', 'the ancestor of the Longbeards', 'the Ironfists and Stiffbeards', and 'the Blacklocks and Stonefoots'. (None of these names of the other six kindreds of the Dwarves has ever been given before. Since the ancestors of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams awoke in the Ered Lindon, these kindreds must be presumed to be the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost.) It seems that he was here referring to Durin's having 'slept alone' in contrast to the other kindreds, whose Fathers were laid to sleep in pairs. If this is so, it is a different conception from that cited in XI.213, where Ilúvatar 'commanded Aulë to lay the fathers of the Dwarves severally in deep places, each with his mate, save Durin the eldest who had none.' On the subject of the 'mates' of the Fathers of the Dwarves see XI.211-13. - In the margin of the typescript my father wrote later (against the present note): 'He wandered widely after awakening: his people were Dwarves that joined him from other kindreds west and east'; and at the head of the page he suggested that the legend of the Making of the Dwarves should be altered (indeed very radically altered) to a form in which other Dwarves were laid to sleep near to the Fathers.] ‡ [In the rejected conclusion of note 21 the place of the awakening of the ancestor of the Longbeards was 'a valley in the Ered Mithrin' (the Grey Mountains in the far North). There has of course been no previous reference to this ancient significance of Mount Gundabad. That mountain originally appeared in the chapter The Clouds Burst in The Hobbit, where it is told that the Goblins 'marched and gathered by hill and valley, going ever by tunnel or under dark, until around and beneath the great mountain Gundabad of the North, where was their capital, a vast host was assembled'; and it is shown on the map of Wilderland in The Hobbit as a great isolated mass at the northern end of the Misty Mountains where the Grey Mountains drew towards them. In The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A (III), Gundabad appears in the account of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs late in the Third Age, where the Dwarves 'assailed and sacked one by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could [find] from Gundabad to the Gladden' (the word 'find' was erroneously dropped in the Second Edition).] ¶ According to their legends their begetter, Aulë the Vala, had made this for them and had taught it to the Seven Fathers before they were laid to sleep until the time for their awakening should come. After their awakening this language (as all languages and all other things in Arda) changed in time, and divergently in the mansions that were far-sundered. But the change was so slow and the divergence so small that even in the Third Age converse between all Dwarves in their own tongue was easy. As they said, the change in Khuzdul as compared with the tongue of the Elves, and still more with those of Men, was 'like the weathering of hard rock compared with the melting of snow.' ------------------------- 'Of Men and Dwarves', The Peoples of Middle-earth (HOME XII).The Petty-dwarves (Nibin-Nogrim, Noegyth Nibin) were not one of the Seven Dwarven Houses, but were instead exiles who [...] came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east. ('Of Túrin Turambar', The Silmarillion).
HOME XI tells us :The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, who were (it is said) the descendants of Dwarves who had left or been driven out from the Communities, being deformed or undersized, or slothful and rebellious.
'Quendi and Eldar', The War of the Jewels
[Edit to include final HOME XI quotation]. |
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Armenelos
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:30 am |
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Question 5: Is anything known of the other houses of dwarves and their fates.
well, Mim is a good example, for one.
Question 6. Is it possible that there were some refugees from Nogrod and Belegost to survive the sinking of Beierland
i don't have the book here to quote, but i believe that those dwarves swelled the numbers of Dwarrowdelf after the sinking of beleriand |
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Tuor,
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:39 am |
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well, Mim is a good example, for one.
Mim was a Petty Dwarf. These Dwarves did not belong to any paticular house. They were the outcast. One of the reasons for being kicked out was being too short.
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Bilbo25
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 8:07 am |
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-Rómestámo- , Armenelos, and Tuor thank you for your responses. I should calrify my third question. Last year there was a debate that was going on as to whether Durin VII and & Last would be an actual king of Durin's folk or whether that was a reference to a constellation seen in the Mirrormere on Durin's Day.
-Rómestámo- I look forward to reading your responses to my other questions.
Peace, B25 |
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 8:45 am |
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Bilbo25 :What is known of the House of Durin between the Awakening of Durin the Deathless and Durin VI. Is it possible that reigned one after the other in sucession.
Not much . Durin the Deathless established the 'Ancestral Mansion' of Khazad-dûm [adapted from Why did the Dwarves choose Zirak-zigil for their kingdom of Khazad-dum?]Durin is the name that the Dwarves used for the eldest of the Seven Fathers of their race, and the ancestor of all the kings of the Longbeards †. He slept alone, until in the deeps of time and the awakening of that people he came to Azanulbizar, and in the caves above Kheled-zâram in the east of the Misty Mountains he made his dwelling, where afterwards were the Mines of Moria renowned in song.
There he lived so long that he was known far and wide as Durin the Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Elder Days had passed, and his tomb was in Khazad-dûm; but his line never failed, and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world. After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dûm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim. ------------------------- † [Footnote]The Hobbit, Pg 63. ------------------------- Appendix A III, Durin's Folk, The Return of the KingDurin woke in the region of Mount Gundabad and [...] walked alone. He named the nameless hills and dells; He drank from yet untasted wells [...]; wandering and exploring the lands around. In the course of time, he made his way south along the Misty Mountains until he entered the upper reaches of the valley of Kibil-nâla (Celebrant (Silverlode)). There He stooped and looked in Mirrormere, And saw a crown of stars appear, As gems upon a silver thread, Above the shadow of his head. Perhaps because of this vision, Durin settled in the caves in the valley of Azanulbizar (Nanduhirion (The Dimrill Dale)) and gathered his people around him. This was the earliest beginning of the settlement that became Khazad-dûm.
[This quotation also provides the answer to Q6 :Is it possible that there were some refugees from Nogrod and Belegost to survive the sinking of [Beleriand]? ]
The first six Durins almost certainly did not reign sequentially. That would mean that the Spirit of Durin would have to either be in two bodies at once or the Spirit of the first (dying) Durin would have to possess the body of his successor. From what we know about the dwarves and death, either of these scenarios is a nonsense.
[[Reposted From the July 12th, 2003 10:08 PM post of Section X - QUENTA SILMARILLION - Chapter 20 from the VTSG forum.]
Dwarves according to their own belief when dead go to sit in the Halls of Awaiting but it seems that their Kings may return from death... Reposted from Knowledge of the Valar, Valinor, and Higher Powers in General (via What happens to Dwarves when they die.). The Dwarves kept their beliefs very much to themselves, but what little we know confirms a special relationship with Aulë. We know from Thorin's last words that they believe that after death, the spirit of the departed dwarf goes to the halls of waiting to sit beside [his] fathers, until the world is renewed.. We are told that: [...] Aulë the Maker, whom they called Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names.
Of Aulë and Yavanna The Silmarillion Now considering The Silmarillion extract from this section [Chapter 20]:[...] But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armor was not proof against their great axes; and when in his rage Glaurung struck down Azaghal, Lord of Belegost, and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghal drove a knife into his belly, and so wounded him that he fled the field, and the beasts of Angband, in their dismay followed after him. Then the Dwarves raised up the body of Azaghal and bore it away; and with slow steps they walked behind singing a dirge in deep voices, as it were a funeral pomp in their own country, and gave no heed more to their foes; and none dared them to stay. It seems from this that the Dwarves of Belegost so valued (or revered) the body of their King that its safe transport and return to their Fortress-city was paramount, taking precedence over the state of the battle or the war overall. Lesser dwarves who had fallen were ignored- this further shows the importance of the King, as we know from The Lord of the Rings of the preferred dwarven treatment of the dead. So it was that after Azanulbizar the Dwarves dispersed again. But first with great labour they stripped all their dead, so that Orcs should not come and win there a store of weapons and mail. It is said that every Dwarf that went from that battlefield was bowed under a heavy burden. Then they built many pyres and burned all the bodies of their kin. There was a great felling of trees in the valley, which remained bare ever after, and the reek of the burning was seen in Lórien.†
------------------------- † Such dealings with their dead seemed grievous to the Dwarves, for it was against their use; but to make such tombs as they were accustomed to build (since they will lay their dead only in stone not in earth) would have taken many years. To fire therefore they turned, rather than leave their kin to beast or bird or carrion-orc. But those who fell in Azanulbizar were honoured in memory, and to this day a Dwarf will say proudly of one of his sires: 'he was a burned Dwarf', and that is enough. ------------------------- Appendix A DURIN'S FOLK The Return of the King In The Peoples of Middle-earth, the esteem for 'kings' is explained:[...] The same is true of the attitude of children to parents. For an injury to a father a Dwarf may spend a life-time in achieving revenge. Since the 'kings' or heads of lines are regarded as 'parents' of the whole group, it will be understood how it was that the whole of Durin's Race gathered and marshalled itself to avenge Thrór.
THE MAKING OF APPENDIX A And more importantly:For the Dwarves asserted that the spirits of the Seven Fathers of their races were from time to time reborn in their kindreds. This was notably the case in the race of the Longbeards whose ultimate forefather was called Durin, a name which was taken at intervals by one of his descendants, but by no others but those in a direct line of descent from Durin I. Durin I, eldest of the Fathers, 'awoke' far back in the First Age (it is supposed, soon after the awakening of Men), but in the Second Age several other Durins had appeared as Kings of the Longbeards (Anfangrim). In the Third Age Durin VI was slain by a Balrog in 1980. [...] Of these Durins the Dwarves reported that they retained memory of their former lives as Kings, as real, and yet naturally as incomplete, as if they had been consecutive years of life in one person†.
How this could come to pass the Elves did not know; nor would the Dwarves tell them much more of the matter‡. But the Elves of Valinor knew of a strange tale of Dwarvish origins, which the Ñoldor brought to Middle-earth, and asserted that they had learned it from Aulë himself. This will be found among the many minor matters included in notes or appendices to The Silmarillion, and is not here told in full. For the present point it is sufficient to ecall that the immediate author of the Dwarvish race was the Vala Aulë¤. [...] The Dwarves add that at that time [the Making of the Dwarves] Aulë gained them also this privilege that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the spirit of each of the Fathers (such as Durin) should, at the end of the long span of life allotted to Dwarves, fall asleep, but then lie in a tomb of his own body*, at rest, and there its weariness and any hurts that had befallen it should be amended. Then after long years he should arise and take up his kingship again¶. The second version is very much briefer, and on the question of the 'rebirth' of the Fathers says only: '... the reappearance, at long intervals, of the person of one of the Dwarf-fathers, in the lines of their kings - e.g. especially Durin - is not when examined probably one of rebirth, but of the preservation of the body of a former King Durin (say) to which at intervals his spirit would return. But the relations of the Dwarves to the Valar and especially to the Vala Aulë are (as it seems) quite different from those of Elves and Men.'
------------------------- † Yet it is said that their memories were clearer and fuller of the far-off days.
‡ That the Elves ever came to know so much (though only at a time when the vigour of both their races was declining) is thought to be due to the strange and unique friendship which arose between Gimli and Legolas. Indeed most of the references to Dwarvish history in Elvish records are marked with 'so said Legolas'.
¤ Who was sometimes called Návatar, and the Dwarves Aulëonnar 'children of Aulë'.
* The flesh of Dwarves is reported to have been far slower to decay or become corrupted than that of Men. (Elvish bodies robbed of their spirit quickly disintegrated and vanished.)
¶ [A note at the end of the text without indication for 'its insertion reads: ] What effect would this have on the succession? Probably this 'return' would only occur when by some chance or other the reigning king had no son. The Dwarves were very unprolific and this no doubt happened fairly often.
------------------------- LAST WRITINGS The Peoples of Middle-earthThus it seems likely that the body of a fallen King may be returned to by the departed spirit and consequently, safeguarding the body is more important to the dwarves than winning the battle, attaining immediate revenge or protecting the bodies of their fallen from beast or bird or carrion-orc. ]
So it seems from this that Durins began reappearing in the Second Age and he sporadically 'returned' into the Third Age, when he was slain again by the Balrog (as Durin VI). It seems from the Genealogy supplied by Gimli (the one in Appendix A), that the dwarves believed that Durin was only due to 'return' one more time. [See subsequent post]
[Edit to fix link & add comment. ] |
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Armenelos
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 10:05 am |
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well, the fact that there were dwarves that were outside of all the houses in itself is informative, but i guess i was introducing characters that were not of Durin's house.
however, Mim had to have decended from at least on of the seven Dwarf fathers to be able to even exist, right? i realize that they don't belong to a house, but they had to come from one of them originally. |
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:05 pm |
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Bilbo25 :Is Durin VII going to be an actual king or is he in fact a constellation reflected into the Mirrormere at a certain time of year. Last year there was a debate that was going on as to whether Durin VII and & Last would be an actual king of Durin's folk or whether that was a reference to a constellation seen in the Mirrormere on Durin's Day.
I am completely at a loss where the 'constellation' view might come from. Gimli's poem in Moria tells us about 'Durin's Crown' and Frodo and Sam go with him to see it, but there is no mention of Durin VII as a constellation.He drank from yet untasted wells; He stooped and looked in Mirrormere, And saw a crown of stars appear, As gems upon a silver thread, Above the shadow of his head. The world was fair, the mountains tall, In Elder Days before the fall Of mighty kings in Nargothrond And Gondolin, who now beyond The Western Seas have passed away: The world was fair in Durin's Day. [...] The shadow lies upon his tomb In Moria, in Khazad-dûm. But still the sunken stars appear In dark and windless Mirrormere; There lies his crown in water deep, Till Durin wakes again from sleep. So while 'Durin's Day' is mentioned, it does not refer to the 'Durin's Day' of The Hobbit'Then what is Durin's Day?' asked Elrond.
'The first day of the dwarves' New Year,' said Thorin, 'is as all should know the first day of the last moon of Autumn on the threshold of Winter. We still call it Durin's Day when the last moon of Autumn and the sun are in the sky together. But this will not help us much, I fear, for it passes our skill in these days to guess when such a time will come again.'
A Short Rest, The Hobbit This is evident as Gimli's poem refers to 'in Durin's Day' (the time when Durin lived and worked), rather than 'on Durin's Day' (which would refer to a specific Day). Further evidence that Durin is not just a constellation is obvious from Frodo's viewing. Beside the standing stone Gimli halted and looked up. It was cracked and weather-worn, and the faint runes upon its side could not be read. `This pillar marks the spot where Durin first looked in the Mirrormere,' said the dwarf. 'Let us look ourselves once, ere we go!'
They stooped over the dark water. At first they could see nothing. Then slowly they saw the forms of the encircling mountains mirrored in a profound blue, and the peaks were like plumes of white flame above them; beyond there was a space of sky. There like jewels sunk in the deep shone glinting stars, though sunlight was in the sky above. Of their own stooping forms no shadow could be seen.
'O Kheled-zâram fair and wonderful! ' said Gimli. `There lies the Crown of Durin till he wakes. Farewell! ' He bowed, and turned away, and hastened back up the green-sward to the road again.
Lothlórien, The Fellowship of the Ring Combined with the poem, it is clear that the special relevance to Durin of Durin's Crown is that only his reflection appears surmounted by the crown of stars when he looks into the Mirrormere from the site of Durin's Stone. The 'crown of stars' (presumed to be seven stars from the West Gate) appears every time that Kheled-zâram is looked into at that spot, but nobody else's reflection ('shadow' ) is seen. Durin VII will 'wake from sleep' (return physically to his entombed body, as a living Dwarf again) when he does, not necessarily on a Durin's Day. His appearance on the Genealogical Table in Appendix A also supports his existence as a corporeal dwarf. This much was always evident from a close reading of The Fellowship of the Ring and The Hobbit, so it is difficult to imagine where 'Durin VII as constellation' comes from.
The final conclusive nail in the coffin of this view (if more was needed) is that JRRT provided details on Durin VII in the early Drafts of 'Appendix A' and also his 'Last Writings', both found in HOME XII.[The indented text is by JRRT, the non-indented commentary by CJRT] And the line of Dáin prospered, and the wealth and renown of the kingship was renewed, until there arose again for the last time an heir of that House that bore the name of Durin, and he returned to Moria; and there was light again in deep places, and the ringing of hammers and the harping of harps, until the world grew old and the Dwarves failed and the days of Durin's race were ended. Thus it was here that 'Durin the Last' emerged, and it is said of him that he returned from Erebor to Moria and re-established it (as is said in the accompanying genealogical table). To this my father never referred again; as Robert Foster noted in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, 'There is no mention of a recolonization of Khazad-dum in the Fourth Age, despite the death of the Balrog.' It is impossible to discover whether my father did in fact reject this idea, or whether it simply became 'lost' in the haste with which the Appendices were finally prepared for publication. The fact that he made no reference to 'Durin VII and Last', though he appears in the genealogy in Appendix A, is possibly a pointer to the latter supposition. [...] There are two copies of the genealogical table accompanying the second version, but they are essentially the same: [...] Thorin III is now called 'Stonehelm', and 'Durin the Last' is shown as his son, 'who re-established the Realm of Moria'; beneath his name is a dotted arrow (as beneath Thorin III in the original table indicating unnamed descendants.
The Making of Appendix A, The Peoples of Middle-earthSo here it is explicit that Durin VII is son of Dáin Ironfoot and leads Durin's Folk back to Moria.
[One problem with recycling posts is that omissions (signified by [...] ) suitable for one topic may result in relevant detail for another topic not appearing if the contraction is not expanded. Unfortunately, my previous post is guilty of this, so the appropriate portion of the quotation gets another run with the omitted portion (and associated footnote) included.]
For the Dwarves asserted that the spirits of the Seven Fathers of their races were from time to time reborn in their kindreds. This was notably the case in the race of the Longbeards whose ultimate forefather was called Durin, a name which was taken at intervals by one of his descendants, but by no others but those in a direct line of descent from Durin I. Durin I, eldest of the Fathers, 'awoke' far back in the First Age (it is supposed, soon after the awakening of Men), but in the Second Age several other Durins had appeared as Kings of the Longbeards (Anfangrim). In the Third Age Durin VI was slain by a Balrog in 1980. [It was prophesied (by the Dwarves), when Dáin Ironfoot took the kingship in Third Age 2941 (after the Battle of Five Armies), that in his direct line there would one day appear a Durin VII - but he would be the last *] Of these Durins the Dwarves reported that they retained memory of their former lives as Kings, as real, and yet naturally as incomplete, as if they had been consecutive years of life in one person †. ------------------------- * ['Durin VII & Last' is shown in the genealogical table in Appendix A, III as a descendant of Dáin Ironfoot. Nothing is said of him in that Appendix; but see p. 278 in this book.]
† Yet it is said that their memories were clearer and fuller of the far-off days. ------------------------- 'Of Men and Dwarves', The Peoples of Middle-earth (HOME XII).This suggests that as well as returning to their previous body, the Spirit of the original Dwarf-Sire may be re-born in a new body.
At any rate, regardless of his method of return, there is NO doubt that Durin VII was intended to be an embodied, corporeal dwarf, not merely a reference to a 'Constellation' on or off Durin's Day...
[Edit for layout and typos]. |
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:27 pm |
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Bilbo25 :Why did Dwalin live to such an advanced age?
[Reposted from The age of Gimli and Legolas?]
In "The Making of Appendix A" in HOME XII, JRRT wrote: Dwarves of different 'breeds' vary in their longevity. Durin's race was originally long-lived (especially those named Durin), but like most other peoples they had become less so during the Third Age. Their average age (unless they met a violent death) was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but could occasionally far exceed (up to 300).† A Dwarf of 300 was about as rare and aged as a Man of 100.
------------------------- † [CJRT's note to the text] It will be found in the genealogical table that the life-span of all the 'kings of Durin's Folk' from Thráin I to Náin II varied only between 247 and 256 years, and no Dwarf in the table exceeded that, save Borin (261) and Dwalin, who lived to the vast age of 340 (the date of his death appears in all the later texts of the table, although the first to give dates seems - it is hard to make out the figures - to make him 251 years old at his death). ------------------------- Thus there is no real reason known as to why Dwalin lived to 340 (although the suspicion is that he was originally intended to only live to 251 and the greater age entered the genealogical tables through error).
[Edit for layout] |
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Bilbo25
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 8:56 pm |
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-Rómestámo-
† [CJRT's note to the text] It will be found in the genealogical table that the life-span of all the 'kings of Durin's Folk' from Thráin I to Náin II varied only between 247 and 256 years, and no Dwarf in the table exceeded that, save Borin (261) and Dwalin, who lived to the vast age of 340 (the date of his death appears in all the later texts of the table, although the first to give dates seems - it is hard to make out the figures - to make him 251 years old at his death).
The above quotation brings to mind a seventh question.
According to the 1993-1994 edition of The Return of the King published by the Del Rey Division of Ballantine Books Appendix A Section III In the Family Tree of Durin's Folk on Page 398
The following entry is given for Gimli
Gimli Elf Friend 2879-3141
Question 7. I find curious in that it omits Gimli who was 262 years old when sailed over the Sea with Legolas. Is there any reason why Gimli would consciously be omitted from the notation by Christopher Tolkien?
Peace, B25 |
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Elessar15
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 10:42 pm |
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This is enormously interesting. Thanks for all the input -Rómestámo-. 
Can't wait till I can I can get my hands on HoME XI-XII. |
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:57 am |
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Bilbo25 :Is there any reason why Gimli would consciously be omitted from the notation by Christopher Tolkien?
Gimli wasn't a 'King' of Durin's Folk. So his Age was not included in the life-span of all the 'kings of Durin's Folk' from Thráin I to Náin II [which] varied only between 247 and 256 years (Neither was Dwalin for that matter). He also wasn't 'dead' when he went 'Over the Sea' (I'm not dead yet... ). The Date of going oversea is recorded according to the same convention that Frodo and Bilbo's Date of going over the sea was recorded, but their actual dates of death are unknown. Thus including him in any discussion of Dwarvish Longevity is only going to confuse matters - hence his omission. That's my guess at any rate... |
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Bilbo25
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:00 am |
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-Rómestámo- The view that Durin VII was in fact a constellation expressed by several members whom I have not seen in many ages. Since thread is arhived more than that I cannot say. All I can remember is that I refuted the view at the time although I found it to be such an interesting question that I resurrected it.
Peace, B25 |
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Gamil_Zirak
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:22 am |
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The Date of going oversea is recorded according to the same convention that Frodo and Bilbo's Date of going over the sea was recorded, but their actual dates of death are unknown. Thus including him in any discussion of Dwarvish Longevity is only going to confuse matters
Not to mention avoid a long discussion about how his stay in the Undying Land may or may not have affected his life span. |
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Tuor,
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:03 pm |
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The undying lands do not make people immortal.
From Akallabeth'The Doom of the World,' they said, 'One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'
Then there is this from Letter 325As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time -- whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.
Romestamo,
These have been some very impressive replies. |
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Tar-Anarion
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:24 pm |
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For anyone who hasn't realised by now, Romestamo has swallowed every book concerning Middle Earth, and I mean literally swallowed!!! |
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Armenelos
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:38 am |
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literally? that wouldn't make it very easy to reference them all the time, as is his want |
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Bilbo25
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 2:51 pm |
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I was rereading The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King: Appendix A III: Durin's Folk in the Appendix in mentions that there were few dwarf women and that went abroad only at times of need or distress.
They had ver few women-folk. Dis Thrain's daughter was there. She was the mother of Fili and Kili who were born in Ered Luin. Thorin had no wife.
Question 8: This being the case is there any evidence in Tolkien's works that it was the custom that only those dwarves of the royal lines to be married with any certainty? |
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Gamil_Zirak
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:04 pm |
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Another question: It said the "fathers" were held to return from death. If so, then how coul Dain have a son named Thorin in 2866, yet Thorin Oakenshield didn't die until 2941? |
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Elessar15
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:47 pm |
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Geez. You guys are going to drive -Rómestámo- to his death! |
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:43 pm |
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Don't worry Elessar15, these [edit last two] questions appear to be the products of woolly thinking and do not require research or much thought to answer . ------------------------- Bilbo25 :<<They had ver few women-folk. Dis Thrain's daughter was there. She was the mother of Fili and Kili who were born in Ered Luin. Thorin had no wife.>>
Question 8: This being the case is there any evidence in Tolkien's works that it was the custom that only those dwarves of the royal lines to be married with any certainty?
Thorin had no wife. Therefore No, not even dwarves of the Royal line married with certainty (Poorly worded question I'm afraid ). Elsewhere ("The Later Quenta Silmarillion" ), JRRT suggests that save their kings and chieftains few Dwarves ever wed; wherefore their race multiplied slowly, and now is dwindling. ("Concerning the Dwarves" ). ------------------------- Gamil_Zirak :Another question: It said the "fathers" were held to return from death. If so, then how coul Dain have a son named Thorin in 2866, yet Thorin Oakenshield didn't die until 2941?
It doesn't say that '"fathers" were held to return from death.' - what the text says is For the Dwarves asserted that the spirits of the Seven Fathers of their races were from time to time reborn in their kindreds. This is later explained by JRRT as most probably: '... the reappearance, at long intervals, of the person of one of the Dwarf-fathers, in the lines of their kings - e.g. especially Durin - is not when examined probably one of rebirth, but of the preservation of the body of a former King Durin (say) to which at intervals his spirit would return. This explains the re-appearance of Durin throughout the years, but "Thorin" was not one of the Seven Fathers of their race so DID NOT RETURN . |
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Gorhaur
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:52 pm |
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Hi Rom! 
I'd like to thank you for all of the insight that you've provided for this thread; you've answered most of the questions thoroughly, and have given plenty of great and relevant excerpts/passages from various books . The only ones left to answer (by you at least) are questions 5-7 ! I'm looking forward to it!
-Gor-
P.S. Sorry for not contributing to the general discussion and topic. |
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Bilbo25
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:02 pm |
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-Rómestámo- I thank you for your responses and I appriciate the efforts you have taken to answer I apologize for the haste with which I typed the last question. My thinking is muddy of late it is clouded by the pain racking my body.
However, I must protest my firrst questions were not as you contend wooly thinking as I do not have access to the resources at your disposal. By this I mean that I do not have acess to the HoME series. All that I possess is a battered copy of the Hobbit, Lord of The Rings, The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales.
As such when I am better I will repost my eight question and any follow up questions.
Peace, B25 |
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:52 pm |
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Apologies Bilbo25 - I did not mean to imply that the initial questions were 'woolly' in any way; I was referring only to the two that I answered in my last post, which either carried their own answers within them or in posts that previously had appeared in this thread. I hope your pain can be managed (I too am convalescent (explaining the time I can spend answering questions) although thankfully not in pain). ------------------------- Gorhaur :The only ones left to answer (by you at least) are questions 5-7
By my count only Q5 remains to be dealt with. |
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Bilbo25
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:07 pm |
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I am hopeful my pain will ease. I will know in two days what is the cause. I thank you for your support truly do apprieciate it.
Peace, B25 |
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Bilbo25
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:51 am |
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I have a ninth, tenth, and eleventh question.
Question 9. In 1980 of the Third Age of the Sun Durin VI was slain by Durin's Bane a Balrog of Morgoth. After Durin was slain by the Balrog why did his son Nain I remain in Khazad-dûm instead of fleeing immediately? It is seems to me to be quite foolish to remain in a placed inhabited by an awakened Balrog. Are any explanations given in Tolkien's writings why Nain and his people remained for the year after Durin VI was slain?
Question 10. Why when Thorin I and Durin's Folk left Erebor to go the Grey Mountains was the Arkenstone not removed from Erebor and left there instead of going with Thorin I.
Question 11. When Thrain I led his people from Khazad-dûm did they leave behind Durin's Axe.
Peace, B25 |
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:05 pm |
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As far as I am aware, JRRT did not elaborate concerning these matters (admittedly fairly fiddly little details ). Hence all answers are somewhat conjectural. Alternate views may be equally plausible .
Bilbo25 :In 1980 of the Third Age of the Sun Durin VI was slain by Durin's Bane a Balrog of Morgoth. After Durin was slain by the Balrog why did his son Nain I remain in Khazad-dûm instead of fleeing immediately? It is seems to me to be quite foolish to remain in a placed inhabited by an awakened Balrog. Are any explanations given in Tolkien's writings why Nain and his people remained for the year after Durin VI was slain?
Before asking this question, an attempt to place yourself in the position of the Dwarf-on-the-ground should be made , working from only the knowledge that this dwarf was likely to have known. Hindsight is always 20-20, but it is clear that not even the Wise in the Third Age knew that 'Durin's Bane' was a Balrog until Legolas first identified it. '[...] The lodes lead away north towards Caradhras, and down to darkness. The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane. [...]' [...] With a quick movement Gandalf stepped before the narrow opening of the door and thrust forward his staff: There was a dazzling flash that lit the chamber and the passage outside. For an instant the wizard looked out. Arrows whined and whistled down the corridor as he sprang back.
'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. `And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor. For the moment they are hanging back, but there is something else there. A great cave-troll, I think, or more than one. There is no hope of escape that way.' [...] Gimli took his arm and helped him down to a seat on the step. `What happened away up there at the door? ' he asked. `Did you meet the beater of the drums? ' 'I do not know,' answered Gandalf. `But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. [...] Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. 'What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think. `I am afraid Balin is buried deep, and maybe something else is buried there too. I cannot say. [...]' [...] 'Ai! ai! ' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come! ' Gimli stared with wide eyes. `Durin's Bane! ' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face. 'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. `What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.' [...] The voice of Legolas faltered, and the song ceased. 'I cannot sing any more,' he said. 'That is but a part, for I have forgotten much. It is long and sad, for it tells how sorrow came upon Lothlórien, Lórien of the Blossom, when the Dwarves awakened evil in the mountains.' `But the Dwarves did not make the evil,' said Gimli. `I said not so; yet evil came,' answered Legolas sadly. [...] 'An evil of the Ancient World it seemed, such as I have never seen before,' said Aragorn. `It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.' 'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.' `Indeed I saw upon the bridge that which haunts our darkest dreams l saw Durin's Bane,' said Gimli in a low voice, and dread was in his eyes. 'Alas! ' said Celeborn. `We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, l would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. [...]'
Book II, The Fellowship of the Ring It is clear from Gandalf's words (he couldn't even guess what the Evil he encountered was) that despite knowledge of some evil under Caradhras (perceived by the Silvan Elves of Amroth's people and suspected by Celeborn and Galadriel), NOBODY had known what it was. None of the Dwarves had first-hand experience of the War of the Jewels or the War of Wrath (not even Durin), so none of them would immediately be able to identify a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; even with the power and terror that was in it or went before it. Given that The Dwarves tell no tale of their expulsion from Moria, and the dwarven estrangement from the Firstborn, no descriptions or depictions of the Balrog were seen by the Elves, so nobody able to identify a Balrog had made the connection. Thus the name 'Durin's Bane'.
So given that the Dwarves did not know what they were facing, there was probably a reasonable delay between the release of the Balrog and the exodus from Khazad-dûm. Given the Chronology TA 1980 [...] A Balrog appears in Moria, and slays Durin VI. and TA 1981 Náin I slain. The Dwarves flee from Moria. Many of the Silvan Elves of Lórien flee south. Amroth and Nimrodel are lost., as little as one day or as many as 729 days could separate the deaths of Durin VI and Náin I. So the dwarves remained in Moria for some period between 2 and 728 days after the liberation of 'Durin's Bane', with a lower figure being most likely (depending on how late in the year Durin VI was slain.
The Balrog was released from its prison by mining dwarves following the mithril seam deep below Barazinbar. If all the dwarves in that work party were slain (as is likely, as they would be unarmoured, surprised and no match for a Balrog in any case), their deaths could be ascribed to a work accident (perhaps a gas explosion, explaining any burns) or a cave-in.
When following working groups again disturbed the Balrog and were lost, the King would be asked to look into their disappearances and deaths (due to his great experience, going back to the First Age). The other scenario is if the Balrog was discovered by the Dwarves, as JRRT's Royalty 'leads from the front', Durin would have led his Guard to destroy it. Either scenario would have lead to his death. When subsequent attempts to destroy the Balrog failed, attempts to wall-off the Balrog would have been made, and only after it was clear that 'Durin's Bane' could not be confined would the decision to evacuate be made. Dwarrowdelf was a great and populous city, so a withdrawal would take many weeks to months. At some stage either prior or during the evacuation and rearguard action, Náin I was lost. To say that the dwarves were 'foolish' to stay as long as they did is one possibility, but not the most probable view given a likely delay between finding Durin's Bane and realising that its presence made Khazad-dûm uninhabitable, and then the time necessary even for an emergency evacuation. ------------------------- Bilbo25 :Why when Thorin I and Durin's Folk left Erebor to go the Grey Mountains was the Arkenstone not removed from Erebor and left there instead of going with Thorin I.
Left where? The Grey Mountains? The Dwarves were driven out of them by Dragons. We also do not know whether the Arkenstone of Thráin was discovered in the reign of Thráin I or that of Thráin II. Either is equally likely given the paucity of information available. Anyway, given that the Arkenstone is described as the 'Heart of the Mountain', I imagine it would have been placed in a Chamber tended to receive and highlight it like Gimli's Glittering Caves and not taken anywhere. However Smaug came so swiftly that there was no time to retrieve it. ------------------------- Bilbo25 :When Thrain I led his people from Khazad-dûm did they leave behind Durin's Axe?
This is a reasonable inference given that Balin's Expedition mentions it (in the Book found in the Chamber of Mazurbal) in a context where they seemed to be finding things. Durin's Axe would have been in an armoury or possibly remained with Durin's body (interred with him as Grave goods?), although the Book should then have also mentioned Durin's Tomb (perhaps it did in one of the illegible areas?). The axe may not have been recovered from where Durin VI fell (and so remained to be found by Balin's expedition) - although this is less likely.
[Edit to 'strike' incorrect statement ] |
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Bilbo25
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:21 pm |
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We also do not know whether the Arkenstone of Thráin was discovered in the reign of Thráin I or that of Thráin II.
This statement is incorrect in light of the following quote from the 1993-1994 edition of The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King Appendix A Section III Durin's Folk on Page 388.
Thrain I, Nain's son, csme to Erebor, The Lonely Mountain, near the eastern eaves of Mirkwood, and there he began new works, and Became King under the Mountain. In Erebor he found the great jewel, the Arkenstone, The Heart of the Mountain
So to clarify that question further Why did Thorin I not take the Arkenstone with he when he decided to move from Erebor to the Grey Mountains. |
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Gorhaur
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:22 pm |
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-Rómestámo-: By my count only Q5 remains to be dealt with.
Sorry for my miscount . I had forgotten that you answered questions 6 and 7 in the post before that; my mistake.
Question 5 is still the only one that remains even now. Are you preparing your excerpts right now? Or are you stumped . |
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-Rómestámo-
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:39 pm |
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-R- :We also do not know whether the Arkenstone of Thráin was discovered in the reign of Thráin I or that of Thráin II.
Bilbo25 :This statement is incorrect in light of the follow quote from Appendix A of the Return of The King [...]
My mistake .
B25 :Why did Thorin I not take the Arkenstone with he when he decided to move from Erebor to the Grey Mountains.
Who said he didn't? If he had, his descendants brought it back when they relocated back to Erebor. Hardly worth thinking about...  [Edit: Appendix A proves this also:Not long after most of Durin's Folk abandoned the Grey Mountains. Grór, Dáin's son, went away with many followers to the Iron Hills; but Thrór, Dáin's heir, with Borin his father's brother and the remainder of the people returned to Erebor. To the Great Hall of Thráin, Thrór brought back the Arkenstone, and he and his folk prospered and became rich, and they had the friendship of all Men that dwelt near. ------------------------- Gorhaur :Question 5 is still the only one that remains even now. Are you preparing your excerpts right now? Or are you stumped
The answer to Q5 is so self-evidently obvious that I haven't bothered with it (yet) . I've got other fish to fry. Given that I have on occasion taken over three weeks to come back to a thread, (Gandalf lied to Frodo (and other continuity errors) for example), ask me again in three weeks if I haven't come back to it... . |
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