Gamil_Zirak
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Gondor
Last Visited: 20 Jul 2004
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 1276
|
Posted: Wed Oct 1, 2003 3:18 pm |
     |
|
Welcome to the thirteenth month of the Virtual Tolkien Study Group, which is discussing the Akallabêth.
If you are new to this forum, please look at the READ FIRST POST/sign on/ask questions/OOC thread before you post.
October Study Session Summary
The First Age of Men ended with the overthrow of Morgoth and the near total destruction of Beleriand. Manwë shut Morgoth into the Void and summoned the Elves to the West. However the Valar held different counsel for Men. The established a new land separated from both Middle-Earth and Valinor, but closer to Valinor. The Edain then sailed there with the help of Cirdan and the Star of Earendil. The First King of Numenor was Elros son of Earendil, but from then on he was known as Tar-Minyatur.
The Numenoreans became great mariners, yet their voyages were ever to the North, South, or East. This is because of the Ban set on them by the Valar, that they should not sail West to the point that Numenor could not be seen lest the begin to desire to voyage to the Undying Lands which are forbidden to Mortal Men. Soon the ships of Numenor reached the coasts of Middle-Earth and they felt pity for Men that remained. After the fall of Morgoth, many men in the service of the dark went among them, and they took them for kings, but under the teaching of the Numenoreans they shook of the offspring of Morgoth and learned many things, from the grinding of grain to the making of wine. When the Numenoreans left these Men took the Sea-Kings for gods and wished for their return.
Yet the yearning for the Undying Lands and immortality grew stronger with every passing year. But those were lengthened for the Men of Numenor had span of years thrice of other Men and the House of Elros lived longer still, yet with the fall of the Shadow their life spans did decrease. So it was in the days of the twelfth king of Numenor that messengers came from Manwë biding them to accept the Gift of Men lest they fall under the Shadow their forefathers fought so valiantly against. However, the counsels of Manwë were scorned, but the Ban remained unbroken, for though the Numenoreans loved the Valar no longer they still feared their might. So it befell in the days of Tar-Atanamir, and the people of Numenor laid those of Middle-Earth under tribune, and Tar-Atanamir refused to renounce the Scepter of Numenor, and was the first King to cling to life until it was wrest from him.
His son, Tar-Ancalimaon, was of like mind and the peoples of Numenor became divided: the King’s Men who disliked and feared the Valar, and the Faithful, who revered them. The King’s Men, however, became obsessed with death and tried to discover the secret of life unending, but found only the art of preserving the flesh of the dead. They built great haven in Middle-Earth and became lords and kings rather than helpers of men. The Faithful took little part in this, sailing rather to the North to Gil-Galad, High King of the Elves in Exile, and their haven of Pelagir on the Great River.
So it was that the Numenoreans became more proud until the twentieth King took the kingship using the common tongue of Numenor calling himself Ar-Adûnakhôr, Lord of the West. After this the Numenoreans begin to forsake the elven tongues completely, save only the Faithful who used it in secret. The lady Inzilbêth, sister of the Lord of Andúnië, was taken to wife by Ar-Gamilzôr, twenty-third King of Numenor, though she was secretly of the Faithful. Their elder son repented of the ways of the Kings, calling himself Tar-Palantir. However after his death, the son of his younger brother to his daughter to wife by force and became Ar-Pharazôn the Golden.
But during that time Sauron grew in power and gained many of the Rings of Power, of which he gave three to Numenorean lords. When they succumbed to the power of the rings they bore, Sauron began to assail the strongholds of Numenor in Middle-Earth and took the title of King of Men. Sauron hated the Numenoreans for in the time of Tar-Minastir the Numenoreans had come to the succor of the Elves in the War of Elves and Sauron.
Ar-Pharazôn plotted for war with Sauron for Sauron had taken to himself the title King of Men, yet Ar-Pharazôn deemed none could rival the Heir of Eärendil. So he created a vast army and landed at Umbar and there challenged the might of Sauron. Yet even the servants of Sauron deserted him for fear of the might and splendor of the Numenoreans. Thus Sauron came and abased himself before the King and Ar-Pharazôn he deemed that Sauron would be better watched in Numenor. Yet within three years Sauron was the chief councilor of the King. Soon many of Numenor, including the king, turned to the worship of the Dark, and Melkor its Lord.
In the midst of Numenor was Meneltrama, the sole mountain in that land. The top of that place was hallowed to Eru, but no temple was raised there or elsewhere in the kingdom until the last days of Numenor. However, under Ar-Pharazôn a mighty temple was built in Armenelos dedicated to the worship of the Dark. The first fire in that Temple was Nimloth, the White Tree of Numenor, which Sauron convinced Ar-Pharazôn to cut down despite Tar-Palantir’s prophecy that the Line of Kings would come to an end with the White Tree.
When Ar-Pharazôn grew old Sauron lied and convinced him that if he made war and took the land of the Valar, the gift of immortality would be his. So began the Great Armament in which Amandil, Lord of Andúnië, and his son Elendil had no part. When all was near ready Amandil sailed West to warn the Valar and gain, if he might, the Pardon of the Valar for him and his sons. However nothing was shown until the fleet made it even to Aman, and encamped on the hill of Túna, yet it availed them not. For Manwë called on Eru and Eru destroyed Numenor and the fleets thereof utterly. Elendil and his sons alone escaped to Middle-Earth, but the Army on the land was swallowed up falling hills.
So ended Numenor, fairest of all Mortal Lands.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gamil_Zirak
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Gondor
Last Visited: 20 Jul 2004
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 1276
|
|
Posted: Wed Oct 1, 2003 3:20 pm |
|
|
Unfinished Tales recounts many things of Numenor in A Description of Numenor, The Line of Elros, and Aldarion and Erendis.
Numenor was shaped roughly like a five pointed star, and divided into seven lands. Each of the five promontories was considered a separate land: Forostar, Andustar, Hyarnustar, Hyarrostar, and Orrostar. The center of the land was called Mittalmar but set aside from it was the Arandor, the King’s Land. The chief city of Numenor was Armenelos, where the King held his court. The King had in his keeping the Aranruth, the Sword of Thingol: Dramborleg, the Axe of Tuor; the Bow of Bregor; and the Ring of Barahir, which was given to Silmarien by her father Tar-Elendil, Third Ruling King of Numenor.
Due to the problems in Aldarion’s marriage, the rule was made that the Kings, and Queens, of Numenor could wed only those of the Line of Elros. Also, it was Aldarion, fifth Ruling King of Numenor, who had the laws of succession changed to where the elder child, man or maiden, received the Sceptre, however a daughter held the right to refuse it.
The Line of Elros sets out all the Kings and Queens of Numenor. They as follows:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Vardamir Nólimon*
Tar-Amandil
Tar-Elendil
Tar-Meneldur
Tar-Aldarion
Tar-Ancalimë
Tar-Anárion
Tar-Súrion
Tar-Telperien
Tar-Minastir
Tar-Ciryatan
Tar-Antanamir
Tar-Ancalimon
Tar-Telemmaitë
Tar-Vanimeldë**
Tar-Alcarin
Tar-Calmacil (Ar-Belzagar)
Tar-Ardamin (Ar-Abattârik)
Ar-Adûnakhôr (Tar-Herunúmen)
Ar-Zimrathon (Tar-Hostamir)
Ar-Sakalthôr (Tar-Falassion)
Ar-Gamilzôr (Tar-Telemnar)
Tar-Palantir (Ar-Inziladûn)
Ar-Pharazôn (Tar-Calion)***
* Vardamir never ruled, but relinquished the Sceptre to his son on the death of Elros. However, he is held to have ruled for a single year in the reckoning of Numenor.
** Upon the death of his wife, Herucalmo seized the Sceptre for himself, denying it to his son. He is not, however, reckoned as one of the Kings.
***Mírel, daughter of Tar-Palantir, was by right the Queen at this time. Pharazôn took her to wife by force, and seized the Scptre for himself.
The names are listed as they were called. A secondary name (if applicable) is placed next to in parenthesis. The names of the Queens are in bold.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gamil_Zirak
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Gondor
Last Visited: 20 Jul 2004
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 1276
|
|
Posted: Wed Oct 1, 2003 3:21 pm |
|
|
Study Questions for October
1. Why did the Valar set Numenor so close to the Undying Lands?
“…the Numenoreans should not be tempted to seek the Blessed Realm…” Akallabeth
“…he(Eru) willed that the heats of Men should seek beyond the world and find no rest therein…” Of the Beginning of Days
2. Why did Manwë think that the Ban would keep Men appeased?
3. Did the Numenoreans establish realms in the Lands of the Sun? If so, what happened to the peoples of the realm after the Downfall?
4. The Eldar asked “…who then should envy who?” Would any of the Elves, save Luthien and Arwen, willingly give up their immorality?
’The love of Arda was set in your hearts by Iluvatar, and he does not plant to no purpose. Nonetheless, many ages of Men unborn shall pass ere that purpose is made known; and to you it will be revealed and not to the Valar.’
5. What is the purpose? Has it been revealed?
…the Lords of Numenor had been wont to wed late in their long lives…
6. Why do the Numenoreans wed late, as opposed to the Eldar, who wed quite early considering their immortality?
7. Why did the Numenoreans, who knew of Sauron’s evil from their own kings, accept three Rings of Power?
Gamilzôr took her to wife, though it was little to her liking…
8. We know from the Middle Ages that the father (or oldest living male) had to approve of the marriage of his daughter. Why did Eärendur, or his brother, not withhold approval of this marriage if Inzilbêth did not desire it?
9. Why did any recognize the marriage between Mírel and Pharazôn if it was illegal? Why didn’t Amandil, the eldest male in Mírel’s family forbid it?
10. Why did none object to Sauron being brought to Numenor?
11. How did Isildur go all the way from Armenelos to Rómenna, bearing the fruit and wounded, without being found out?
12. Why did Manwë call on Eru to defeat to Numenoreans instead of having Ulmo prevent them from getting to Aman?
13. Is there any evidence that any, save those of the Fellowship and the Elves, have found the Straight Road?
|
|
|
|
|
|
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 15 Oct 2004
Joined: 06 Mar 2002
Posts: 2947
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 2, 2003 10:14 am |
|
|
Congratulations on an excellent summary and starter post Gamil_Zirak  . I'll recycle a few ideas previously posted to set the ball rolling...
Gamil_Zirak : Why did the Valar set Numenor so close to the Undying Lands?
How far apart are Tol Eressëa and Númenor? Based on the statements that Avallónë was visible from the summit of the Meneltarma and also from the masthead of a ship just in sight of Númenor, Karen Wynn Fonstad guesstimates the relative separation of Tol Eressëa and Elenna. Unfortunately, this is difficult to determine in a 'flat-earth' model as current earth algorithms all take the earth's curvature into account. Also assumptions as to maximum line-of-sight visibility (on a flat earth) and vertical height (of the Meneltarma (14,400 feet according to Fonstad) or of the Masthead observation point) must be made. [...] This the Númenóreans knew full well; and at times, when all the air was clear and the sun was in the east, they would look out and descry far off in the west a city white-shining on a distant shore, and a great harbour and a tower. For in those days the Númenóreans were far-sighted; yet even so it was only the keenest eyes among them that could see this vision, from the Meneltarma, maybe, or from some tall ship that lay off their western coast as far as it was lawful for them to go. [...]
Akallabêth, The Silmarillion However, with that in mind, Fonstad places the two islands about 800 miles apart. Avallónë was not visible all the time. The elvish haven was only visible at certain times of ideal viewing conditions to those few observers who were the most keen sighted of a far-sighted people.
As to why the isle of Elenna was placed nearer to Valinor than to Middle-earth, the people who came to Andor were all friends and allies of the Elves, with no ties to Middle-earth once Beleriand was destroyed. The Valar probably placed Elenna with this in mind, so that the friends of the Edain (Elves who had (or were supposed to have) relocated to Tol Eressëa) could conveniently visit their friends. It may also have been raised roughly midway between Aman and Middle-earth to avoid causing upheaval to already established lands. ------------------------- Gamil_Zirak :7. Why did the Numenoreans, who knew of Sauron's evil from their own kings, accept three Rings of Power?
We know from the Tale of Years (Appendix B) that Sauron distributed the Nine Rings he allocated to Men shortly after he seized them from Celebrimbor in SA 1697. We know this because the Ringwraiths first appear in SA 2251 (About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.). Remembering that this is before Sauron's first downfall, he can still appear in a fair form - and given his penchant for deceit and his liking for 'false identities' :Sauron endeavoured to keep distinct his two sides: enemy and tempter. When he came among the Noldor he adopted a specious fair form (a kind of simulated anticipation of the later Istari and a fair name: Artano "high-smith," or Aulendil, meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Vala Aulë. (In Of the Rings of Power, p. 287, the name that Sauron gave to himself at this time was Annatar, the Lord of Gifts; but that name is not mentioned here.)
Note to 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn', Unfinished Tales the three Great lords that accepted the Rings probably were not aware that the giver of the Ring was Sauron. While Tar-Minastir sent a great fleet to aid Gil-galad, it is doubtful whether any Númenórean had actually met Sauron, or would recognise him, even if he did not alter his appearance. So it is hardly surprising that the Lords accepted the Rings, given that Sauron had fled into the east after his defeat and the likelihood that the Ring giver (Sauron in a new adopted persona) was not linked to this beaten enemy by either name or appearance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
scirocco
released from bonds
Alliance: House of Feanor
Last Visited: 27 Aug 2010
Joined: 04 Oct 2000
Posts: 1952
|
|
Posted: Sun Oct 5, 2003 4:10 am |
|
|
Why did Manwë call on Eru to defeat to Numenoreans instead of having Ulmo prevent them from getting to Aman?
Tolkien's statements are a little inconsistent on this subject. The simple answer is that the Valar were capable of intervening, but were under a prohibition against doing so:
The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion — for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world. They appealed to God; and a catastrophic 'change of plan' occurred. At the moment that Ar-Pharazon set foot on the forbidden shore, a rift appeared: Numenor foundered and was utterly overwhelmed...
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 156
Consistent with this idea of 1954, in the published Silmarillion it is Iluvatar Himself who actually changes the shape of the world:
Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Iluvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; and a great chasm opened in the sea between Numenor and the Deathless Lands...
The Silmarillion, Akallabeth
whereas in the earlier Letter 131 (dating from 1951), the Valar do not seem certain of victory over the Numenorean forces, and yet they themselves are empowered to "deal with the situation" rather than Eru doing it Himself.
Faced by this rebellion, of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation; the old world is broken and changed...
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 131
The suggestion that the Valar themselves might actually throw down Numenor (with power granted by Eru) originates from Tolkien's oldest Numenorean text, the Fall of Numenor:
But the heart of Manwe was sorrowful and dismayed, and he called upon Iluvatar, and took power and counsel from the Maker; and the fate and fashion of the world was changed. The silence of the gods was broken and their power made manifest; and Valinor was sundered from the earth, and a rift appeared in the midst of the Great Sea, east of Avallon....
The Fall of Numenor, History of Middle-earth Vol IX, p336
The Akallabeth, as published in The Silmarillion, drew on both the Fall of Numenor text and another called The Drowning of Anadune, and is a mixture of ideas from both. The Drowning does have Eru rather than Manwe creating the chasm into which Numenor fell, and this was the version chosen for the Akallabeth.
However, it's not surprising that JRRT himself in letters he wrote a decade later may have forgotten precisely which version he had selected.
|
|
 |
The Eagle from
Bilbo woke up with the early sun in his eyes
J.R.R. Tolkien, July 1937 |
|
|
|
|
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 15 Oct 2004
Joined: 06 Mar 2002
Posts: 2947
|
|
Posted: Sun Oct 5, 2003 11:32 pm |
|
|
11. How did Isildur go all the way from Armenelos to Rómenna, bearing the fruit and wounded, without being found out?
Adapted from Isildur, a tragic hero?:
[...] Isildur said no word, but went out by night and did a deed for which he was afterwards renowned. For he passed alone in disguise to Armenelos and to the courts of the King, [Ar-Pharazôn] which were now forbidden to the Faithful; and he came to the place of the Tree, which was forbidden to all by the orders of Sauron, and the Tree was watched day and night by guards in his service. At the time, Nimloth was dark and bore no bloom, for it was late in the autumn, and its winter was nigh; and Isildur passed through the guards and took from the Tree a fruit that hung upon it, and turned to go. But the guard was aroused, and he was assailed, and fought his way out, receiving many wounds; and he escaped, and because he was disguised it was not discovered who had laid hands on the Tree. But Isildur came at last hardly back to Rómenna and delivered the fruit to the hands of Amandil, ere his strength failed him. We know from Unfinished Tales that Isildur was a man of strength and endurance that few even of the Dúnedain of that age could equal, and at the time of his recovery of the fruit of Nimloth, he could add the resilience of youth. The distance between Armenelos and Rómenna is over sixty miles (according to JRRT's Unfinished Tales' map), but we are not told whether Isildur took the most direct route nor how long he took to make the journey. Possibly, he took a circuitous path over a few days to reach Amandil.
However, given the element of surprise and the degree of confusion engendered by his raid (I suspect the first response would have been to rush guards to where Ar-Pharazôn was, and to Sauron), pursuit may have been slow and disorganised. Once escaping the environs of the Palace, Isildur would have been at large in a city of many thousands of people, with many hiding places, exits and possible confederates. Similarly, the roads between Armenelos and Rómenna would be busy with much traffic. If Isildur remained ahead of the hue and cry raised by his theft, and avoided arousing the suspicions of Guards (at city gates? Were the Cities of the Númenóreans in peaceful Númenor walled?), he could have escaped the city before searches and checkpoints were set up around Armenelos. Thus, while the theft of the fruit and escape of Isildur was justly acclaimed a great feat, it doesn't strain credulity to imagine him eluding pursuit and returning to his Grandfather's estate (probably outside the city of Rómenna).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tulkas_The_Valiant
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Valinor
Last Visited: 30 Jan 2005
Joined: 24 Aug 2002
Posts: 1025
|
|
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:29 pm |
|
|
4. The Eldar asked “…who then should envy who?” Would any of the Elves, save Luthien and Arwen, willingly give up their immorality?
I don’t think that a simple yes/no answer could ever suffice for this question. The Elves viewed death differently than did the Edain - and further more, would argue that they are not immortal - they shall come to an end, when Arda passes away.
“They certainly held that all things or ‘makings’, that is constructed (however simply and incipiently) from basic ‘matter’, which they called erma, were impermanent, within Eä. They were therefore much concerned with ‘The End of Arda’. They knew themselves to be limited by Arda . . . the End could be brought about by Eru at any time by intervention, so that it certainly could not be foreseen. (A minor and as it were foreshadowing intervention of this sort was the catastrophe in which Númenor was obliterated, and the physical residence of the Valar in Imbar was ended). The Elvish conception of the End was in fact catastrophic. They did not think that Arda (or at any rate Imbar) would just run down into lifeless inanition”
[Note 2], Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Morgoth’s Ring
This, to me, suggests that the Eldar did not consider themselves immortal, and therefore, to give up that would be impossible. They would, I think, say that Luthien and Arwen chose not to give up their immortality, rather that they chose to end before Arda did. The Elven perception of their life might well be one of enduring until some final, ‘apocalyptic’ (Used in the sense of great destruction, not in the original Greek meaning) end, where they, and Arda passed away.
“They eventually became housed, if it can be called that, not in actual visible and tangible hröar, but only in the memory of the fëa of its bodily form, and its desire for it; and therefore not dependant for mere existence upon the material of Arda. But they appear to have held, and indeed still to hold that this desire for the hröa shows that their later (and present) condition is not natural to them, and they remain in estel that Eru will heal it. ‘Not natural’, whether it is due wholly, as they earlier thought, to the weakening of the hröa(derived from the delibility introduced by Melkor into the substance of Arda upon which it must feed), or partly to the inevitable working of a dominant fëa upon a material hröa through many ages. (In the later case, ‘natural’ can only refer to an ideal state, in which unmarred matter could for ever endure the indwelling of a perfectly adapted hröa . . .)”
[Note 7], Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Morgoth’s Ring
This, even more clearly than the previous quote, again suggests that the Elves would not view themselves as immortal. Especially if one defined immortal as dwelling forever in an incorruptible body, the Elves were not in that sense immortal - their spirit might endure, but their physical embodiment would dwindle/decay until only a spirit existed.
Whereas, in contrast, Andreth (Speaking for the Edain) holds that the Edain were, at one time, meant to be that kind of immortal - in incorruptible bodies that endured forever.
“We knew that in our beginning we had been born never to die. And by that, my lord, we meant: born to life everlasting, without shadow of any end . . . Many of the Wise hold that in their true nature no living things would die.”
In conclusion, I would say that the Eldar might desire not to endure until the end of Arda, as is evidenced in the weariness of living that some exhibited. However, I would say that this would depend on the individual Elda, and so, for the entire race, could not be answered either way. They did consider themselves and men to have different gifts - and they marveled at the willingness of men to give up their life.
“ . . . the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave so freely of which they had on earth so little.”
Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin, Unfinished Tales. )
That last passage does beg the question of the Edain, taking into account the fact that ‘they had . . . on earth so little’ - would the fëa of the Edain, once it has departed Arda, go to some final resting place, where true re-embodiment, and eternity might await them?
Tulkas.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Parmamaite
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Numenore
Last Visited: 09 Jul 2010
Joined: 08 Dec 2002
Posts: 1491
Location: Denmark
|
|
Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 6:11 am |
|
|
4. The Eldar asked “…who then should envy who?” Would any of the Elves, save Luthien and Arwen, willingly give up their immorality?
Well, Elros chose mortality, and I think that Eärendil wanted to choose mortality as well, but refrained because of his love for Elwing.
Gamilzôr took her to wife, though it was little to her liking…
8. We know from the Middle Ages that the father (or oldest living male) had to approve of the marriage of his daughter. Why did Eärendur, or his brother, not withhold approval of this marriage if Inzilbêth did not desire it?
9. Why did any recognize the marriage between Mírel and Pharazôn if it was illegal? Why didn’t Amandil, the eldest male in Mírel’s family forbid it?
I think that as the Kings of Númenor became more and more proud, they would do as they pleased, and execute or imprison anybody who openly withstood them. Think about the Roman Emperors or the autocratic monarchies of 16th-19th century Europe.
10. Why did none object to Sauron being brought to Numenor?
As above. And Sauron was brought to Númenor as a prisoner, most people problably thought it was a good thing, as long as Sauron was imprisoned in Númenor, he couldn't harass the colonies in Middle-earth.
13. Is there any evidence that any, save those of the Fellowship and the Elves, have found the Straight Road?
Yes! Ælfwine (Eriol) came to Tol Eressëa in the Middle Ages.
|
|
|
|
|
|
starlin
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Gondor
Last Visited: 04 Feb 2010
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 2333
Location: LT (Vilnius) - UK (London)
|
|
Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:28 am |
|
|
6. Why do the Numenoreans wed late, as opposed to the Eldar, who wed quite early considering their immortality?
Interesting question. Firstly, I'd like to remind the story of Aldarion and Erendis. Aldarion postponed his marriage to a really late age because of his love for the Sea (which, by the way, is a very beautiful personification). Is his case exceptional? Or did all male Númenoreans venture into dangerous deeds before marriage?
Such marrying age differences are due to the different natures and lifestyles of Eldar and Edain. The former seem to me more 'settled' (sorry if I don't find a proper word in English) whilst the latter are always rushing, they're willing to seize as much of life as possible. The Eldar don't have a need to rush, they can establish home, hearth, family. Men first want to explore the world before confining themselves. Of course, I cannot get into men's boots since I'm a female, but in any case it seems evident that at least in Númenor men chose wifes, not the other way round. It was a patriarchal society, wasn't it? So, if men choose, they don't choose to early, they try to get some experience - Sea, voyages, perhaps even tilling - it's freedom, and later on the necessity to 'nestle down' comes. There is a stereotype in 'our world' as well that men are afraid of marriage, but Tolkien's works often resemble true stereotypes and I don't think that this matter is exceptional.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Twiggyleaf
Rider of the Mark
Alliance: Fangorn
Last Visited: 10 Mar 2005
Joined: 12 Jun 2002
Posts: 835
Location: Glasgow
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 5, 2003 5:09 am |
|
|
Hi, and thanks, Gamil Zirak for your summary and observations.
I just watned to make a brief comment on Question 12: "Why did Manwe call on Eru to defeat the Numenoreans instead of having Ulmo prevent them from getting to Aman?"
I agree with Scirocco's ideas that the Valar had no jurisdiction to act against the Numenoreans, even although they defined the ban. I would also propose that it was quite possibly already fated, in that the events could have been already sung in the "Song of the Ainur".
In this case, only Mandos and Manwe would have known that it was going to happen, but it seems to me that such a cataclysmic event involving direct Divine Intervention would be one of the major themes in a song of creation.
As an aside, and not really in answer to any of the questions, I would also like to say why I find the period during the Akallabeth so interesting with relation to the War of the Rings.
Althought this chapter mainly details a chronology of the line of Numenorean kings, and major events around them, it also covers a period in time when much of the prologue to the war of the rings takes place.
I believe that if Tolkien had had more time he would have gone back to this period and expounded it further, with direct relation to how the rings came about.
For those who have read through the voluminous tomes of HOME, there are doubtless many references to these years which one will not find within what I regard as the main published literary framework of The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. However, I believe these are probably very scattered, with great gaps and many inconistencies.
It seems to me a period open to great Tolkienesque writing and speculation, what with the domination and creation of the Nazgul, and the trickery of the elves and the creation of the Rings of Power, among many other things.
As an experienced role player, I mark that it is a briliantly vivid scenario within which to work many small mini creations, and although the period never made it onto the cutting room floors of any of Tolkien's major stories, it is obviously a time period he thought very much about.
Anyone else think anything like this?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Novice
Ranger of the North
Alliance: -None - Female-
Last Visited: 02 Apr 2009
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 2734
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 5, 2003 6:46 pm |
|
|
Twiggy, (first, nice to see you. ) I had not thought of it in those terms, but you are right; the period is very rich ("interesting times" as the Chinese would say) and yet it is covered with great economy by Tolkien.
I find that interesting also because the kernel of the story harks back to Tolkien's earliest years of creativity, having at it's heart the drowning of Numénor and his recurring dream of a great wave drowning the land...one would have thought he would have found that a rich vein for story creation.
On reflection, I guess I am surprised that he treated it so sparsely.
(My, oh my! I think this has been my first post in a VTSG thread for months! I must get myself in order.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
  |
|
Goto:
|
|
|
|
|
| The time now is Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:21 am ... All times are GMT - 8 Hours
|
|
| |
Give Gamil_Zirak a Premiere Membership!
