Gandalf'sMother
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 5:46 am |
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Theoden refuses to call for Gondor's aid in TTT, and then proceeds to moan about how Gondor didn't come to his aid in ROTK. Interesting character. He also seems to have some difficulty with the word "nonetheless."
Great rallying speech and death scene though.
-Mother Maiar
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Galenmir
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:10 am |
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Maybe they cut the famous "Theoden asking aid from Gondor at the last minute, right before the doors were broken down actually, and they still didn't come in time, who do they think they are, those puffed-up morons?" scene...
Or... on a more mundane level, maybe his possession by Saruman left him with a few logic screws loose...
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crispycreme
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:21 am |
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To be fair, he did complain about Gondor's lack of assistance in TTT as well ("Where was Gondor...?" ). For me, the logic gap comes when Theoden agrees to ride to Minas Tirith after the beacons are lit. Why now? What changed his heart and mind? Don't get me wrong, I was as misty-eyed as you can get during that scene, and Hill delivered brilliantly, but I feel there was a scene cut between Theoden's lament earlier in the film and his later declaration of aid.
edit - stoopfid smilies
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The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" but "That's funny..."
- Isaac Asimov |
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Mammo
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:24 am |
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You Guys 
He is only human - and not even descended from Numenor!!!!Cut him a break 
I think he would be just too darn noble entirely if he went rushing off with what was left of his Rohirrim without a grumble or two. I liked his crusty character - thought he had more depth than book Theoden.
I guess PJ's big booboo for me was Denethor.... I really disliked his adaptation of him.
Mammy! Good to see you around again....
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skyfiery
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:45 am |
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That got me thinking too. But perhaps (if there wasn't any scene cut) Theoden simply had a change of mind at that last moment. That's kinda possible too, don't you think?
And, a guy friend I went to watch RotK with commented on how movie-Theoden seems only to charge headlong into battle without any real strategies. (Well, perhaps there was, but we didn't spot it). He seemed like: "Oh, if there's orcs and foul stuff there, let's just ride out to meet them." 
Sky
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Arwen740
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:52 am |
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To me, this change of heart to go to Gondor's aid came with his acceptance of Aragorn as the leader, the future King. You can see in Theoden's face the struggle, the decision to finally accept Aragorn's demands. Theoden had learned at Helm's Deep that Aragorn was a wise and noble leader in battle. From then on I could see a shift in Theoden's attitude towards Aragorn, a growing respect and admiration and a willingness to follow him.
(I'm at work and cannot contribute much at the moment...).
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robo
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:56 am |
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One thing I just realised is that the beacons can also be used for Rohan to call Gondor for aid. Why didn't Theoden light them "when the Westfold fell"?
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Dandalf_the_White
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:07 am |
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Keep in mind that Rohan had already been at war for weeks before Helm's Deep, and there had been no aid from Gondor. It would seem that the Oath of Eorl is a one way street....
Though Rohan never did a summons, so blaming Gondor for not reading Theoden's mind is a bit harsh.
Theoden probably just realized he was being blustery.
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crispycreme
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:07 am |
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One thing I just realised is that the beacons can also be used for Rohan to call Gondor for aid. Why didn't Theoden light them "when the Westfold fell"?
They wouldn't work going in that direction? 
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The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" but "That's funny..."
- Isaac Asimov |
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Arwen740
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:09 am |
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Theoden must have come to a realization that this was much more than a bitter rivalry between two kingoms and that the future of mankind was at stake. It seemed natural enough to me that he would come around to this.
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holbytla
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:34 am |
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I was never crazy about the portrayal of movie Theoden. Perhaps PJ didn't feel "nobility" would come across as well on the screen. Maybe he thought it would be too corny?
From the time he states that Rohan will go to Gondor's aid, until his death, he is completely resurrected in my eyes. Thankfully.
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Dandalf_the_White
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:37 am |
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From the time he states that Rohan will go to Gondor's aid, until his death, he is completely resurrected in my eyes. Thankfully.
Here, here!
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mcnichba
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:16 am |
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I think Theoden's re-considering more sharply delineated his character from Denethor's. Theoden casts aside his pride and resentment and rises to a 'last fair morning', whereas Denethor cherishes his and falls.
Worked great for me.
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Elmtree
Not all those who wander aren't lost
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:21 am |
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You can feel the cut scene there. Certainly there WAS something else. There must have been.
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"The misconception about children's fiction is that it's lightweight or fluffy. It's about really big and important things. It's adults who like light and fluffy. Everything is big and important to a child, so their stories are about big and important events." - Steven Moffat |
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Elven*Warrior
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:28 am |
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Theoden's logic? He had some? Sorry, I'm just not a fan of his. I abhor him in the TTT movie (tolerable in the book), and I thought I'd slug him in ROTK when he didn't want to help Gondor. But then, I suppose I should cut him some slack since he ended up riding to their aid.
His transition did seem a bit abrupt, but I didn't really have a problem with it. Now some of the other stuff....(must stay on topic,
must stay on topic )
--Elven*Warrior
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Leonides*
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:50 am |
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I thought that the whole point was that Gondor didn't come, but that Theoden would fight for them anyway.
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Marty
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:00 am |
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"One thing I just realised is that the beacons can also be used for Rohan to call Gondor for aid. Why didn't Theoden light them 'when the Westfold fell'?"
Maybe he did.
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Morgoth_The_Inexorable
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:03 am |
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based solely on the movie, i guess denethor did not respond to rohan's pleas out of madness. i mean the guy did tell his men to abandon their posts.
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Strelnikov
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:16 am |
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He probably decided to go to war because if he didn't, he could look forward to Eowyn, Eomer, Aragorn, Gimli, Merry et al nagging at him and shooting him dirty looks...a quick death on the battle field probably seemed preferable  .
Seriously, I liked film Theoden. Book Theoden was, as Gandalf put it, a "kindly old man", but I had some problems with his depth--the sudden turnaround followed by amnesia that his only son was dead. For me the 'exorcism' was actually a more plausible way for him to come out from under Grima's control, and I found his grief when he realized Theodred had died while he was 'out to lunch' very emotionally true to life. His subsequent 'wobbliness' also rang true, for someone who has come out of a long darkness and suddenly is asked to make the most critical decisions of his reign, indeed of the reign of any King of Rohan in a long time. Fundamentally he is a brave and honorable man and makes the right decisions, with a little nudzhing from Aragorn. I also was more upset by his death in the film, because he was younger than Book Theoden and could have had many years to enjoy the peace his fighting had won, whereas Book Theoden was very old and accepting of his passing and leaving the throne to Eomer. Book Theoden truthfully is rather flat--a nice old geezer rescued by Gandalf from dotage to a noble end in battle. Film Theoden was much more complex--more of a real person. I found it totally realistic that when contemplating helping Gondor in the abstract his attitude was negative, but when faced with the reality of the lit beacons he could not say no. Hasn't anyone ever had a conflicted relationship with someone about whom you've said "Hey, if s/he gets in trouble again, tough, they're on their own", but when they ACTUALLY need you, you're right there? Sometimes it's NOT logical, it's an emotional decision. For some people Theoden's turnaround may not work, but it does for me.
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Dandalf_the_White
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:20 am |
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Nicely put, Strelnikov.
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robo
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:45 am |
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...but we're not talking individuals here - these are kingdoms with thousands of people involved. "Great power requires great responsibility" and Theoden just wasn't acting very responsibly.
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Strelnikov
Citizen of Imladris
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:12 pm |
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Thanks, Dandalf.
Robo, what did Theoden do that was irresponsible? If he'd followed Gandalf's advice and tried to attack Saruman head on in the open rather than going to Helm's Deep and hanging tough while Gandalf went for the cavalry (literally) he'd have been slaughtered--look how many men he lost to the Warg riders.
It's true he didn't ride immediately to Gondor, but he would have had to muster the Rohirrim anyway, and in the movie sequence of events there was no real time lost. If he'd doodled around for days or weeks, yes, I'd say that was irresponsible. But his better instincts triumphed. After all, as you say, he's a King responsible for his people, and it may have seemed to him at first that if Gondor left him to defeat Saruman alone, he'd leave them to wipe up Sauron. Then he realized that Gondor couldn't do it alone and he decided to stand with them. Kind of like Elrond needing the push from Galadriel to send the Elven Archers (all of whom were killed) to Helm's Deep to stand with men. (Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that given how many people didn't like THAT change from the book!)
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bellatrys
Citizen of Imladris
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:16 pm |
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There are tremendous plotholes in the entire Rohan-Gondor storyline in the film, which aren't there in the books. You're absolutely right that doesn't make sense in the movie - that's what I was saying in TTT-M, but then it get even weirder with the "exposition scene" over the map in Ithilien, where Filmamir's ADC is saying that "their scouts" have reported that Rohan is in trouble. That makes no sense at all unless they either have spies in Rohan with two-way radios, or everyone's got palantirs to keep tabs on international news. So much for the whole storyline about Gondor not knowing exactly what's going on, the suspense of not knowing that help is coming because horse and rider can only go so fast, and not at all if they've been killed!
But they scratched all the political realism in the book, the old alliances - I wanted to yell in the movie theatre, when Theoden says Why should we help *Gondor*, "Because they gave you the Riddermark, remember?!?" - and the current affairs. Book-Theoden is actually half-Lossarnach, his mother was a provincial lady from Gondor. So he has a family tie of loyalty to that kingdom, as well as an inherited political obligation of fealty to that realm. In the book's backstory, the Rohirrim showed up as "barbarian allies" to the rescue when the native Dunlenders were allying with Orcs to overthrow Gondor, and were granted the rule over those lands out of gratitude by the rescued people of Gondor a couple hundred years back. (There's a great little short story describing this in Unfinished Tales, how Cirion of Gondor makes a sacred covenant with Eorl of Rohan on Elendil's hidden tomb in the mountains, and we see that Eomer is just typical for his family in liking to do cool flashy things with swords...) They get their nice high-tech chainmail from Gondor, and they often have gone to help out in the past; there are long cultural ties between the two independent allies (remember Boromir says they're 100% trustworthy no matter what rumours say! and he's more than half-right.) That's the deal in the book.
Now, in the film, if they'd established that Movie!Theoden had asked for help and been turned down, that would have been one thing. It would have made sense in the context of what they were doing, however much a change it would have been. But the way he says it, it just makes him sound daft - "Nobody loves us, just gonna go eat worms" before Helm's Deep. Ditto with Movie!Denethor a) refusing to light the beacons; b) complaining that Rohan won't come help. Without modern communications technology, none of this makes sense as presented onscreen.
And book-Theoden is presented, once cured, as a war-leader both brave and quick at decision making, but also very careful and responsible, not letting the impulsive and young just dash out and get killed for no reason - but at the same time not a head-in-the-sand type, either. The military intelligence of Rohan, given the low-tech level of operations, in TTT is extremely impressive.
But everyone in the *films* suffers from the Stupidity Curse, whereby movie characters must do dumb things so as to cause crises so that the stars can get to do dramatic heroic adventury things, unfortunately.
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vynaca_of_mirkwood
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:34 pm |
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bellatrys, I think the next time a director and screenwriter adapt a novel they should just perch the camera on a tripod facing the book and turn the pages every 60 seconds. That would be box office gold!
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Galenmir
Ranger of the North
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:56 pm |
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With important passages highlighted for the non-book fans.
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bellatrys
Citizen of Imladris
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Last Visited: 31 Dec 2003
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:41 pm |
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No, no, it's called an *adaptation*, and it goes something like this:
----
{Scene: the encampent at Dunharrow; interior of Theoden's tent. The Captain of the Guard pushes aside the door-curtain and leans in.}
Captain:
A messenger is here, lord, from Gondor. He wishes to speak to you at once.
Theoden:
Let him come!
{Hirgon enters, holding out the arrow with red-painted barb, and drops to one knee before Theoden. He is dressed very similar to Boromir at the Council of Elrond, and Merry is visibly taken aback by the resemblence. The Rohirrim present all look very serious and alert.}
Hirgon: {loudly}
Hail, Lord of the Rohirrim, friend of Gondor! Hirgon I am, errand-rider of Denethor. Gondor is in great need - often you have aided us, but now Lord Denethor asks for all your strength and speed, lest Gondor fall at last.
{Theoden takes the token of war, his expression grim but not surprised}
Theoden:
The Red Arrow! This has not been seen in the Mark in all my years! Has it indeed come to that?
Hirgon: {nodding}
Indeed, our case is desperate. It is rumored that many kings have ridden in from the East in the service of Mordor. From the North there is skirmish and rumor of war, and in the south the Haradrim are moving, and fear has fallen on all our coastlands, so that little help will come to us. Make haste!
{almost pleading}
My lord does not issue any command to you -- he begs you only to remember old friendship, and oaths long spoken -- and for your own good, to do all that you can.
Theoden: {wry smile}
Dark tidings -- yet not all unguessed.
{raising his head to look from the Red Arrow to Hirgon's desperate face}
--Say to Denethor that even if Rohan itself felt no peril, still we would come to his aid. But we have suffered much loss ourselves in our battles with Saruman the traitor, and we must still think of our borders, as your tidings make clear.
{the errand-rider looks dismayed; Eomer looks like he'd like to jump on Firefoot and head for Gondor right this second}
Hirgon: {urgent}
It is before the walls of Minas Tirith that the doom of our time will be decided - and if the tide is not stemmed there, it will flow over all the fields of Rohan - even in this Hold among the hills there shall be no refuge!
Theoden: {firmly}
We will come.
{the courier's expresion changes to almost-tearful relief}
Six thousands at the least shall ride behind me. Say to Denethor that the King of the Mark himself will come down to the land of Gondor ...
{half to himself}
...though maybe he will not ride back.
{Eomer, Merry, Eowyn and the other lords of the Mark look like they're ready to start cheering, just like Hirgon - but Theoden puts a damper on it with his next words}
But it is a long road, and man and beast must reach the end with strength to fight. A week from tomorrow you will hear us coming from the North.
{the messenger looks crestfallen, as do the other Rohirrim}
Hirgon:
A week!
{he sighs, looking more than ever like desperate Boromir in FOTR; resignedly}
If it must be so, it must. --But you are likely to find only ruins, seven days from now.
{ironic smile}
Still, you may at least disturb the enemy from their feasting in the White Tower.
Theoden: {ironic}
At least we will do that.
---
Now - I've cut drastically, modernized some lines slightly, and rearranged to give the gist of the scene in the shortest time, but I've changed no one's character. It could be done other ways, but that would have made much more sense than Movie!Theoden's erratic behaviour, all the noble efforts to rationalize it by fans notwithstanding, and wouldn't have taken any longer than the Elrond-Arrives-By-Magic and earlier We're Not Going, We're Not Going, Hey, We're Going! exchanges.
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Bernd
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:18 pm |
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Yours is a good adaptation if you want a puristy miniseries that goes on for weeks.
Why isn't Theoden allowed to change his mind? I do it all the time.
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vynaca_of_mirkwood
Mariner
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:21 pm |
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That was not Bernd posting. Dumkopf forgot to log off MY COMPUTER.
AGAIN!!!!!!
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GimliBrokeMyNeck
Shield Bearer
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:49 pm |
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Of course there is a plot change in the movie. Rohan and Gondor are not as tight as they should be. But them joining together as one to fight is a powerful moment in this trilogy and it works brialliantly.
This is by far the best of the three movies and we havent even an SE yat
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bellatrys
Citizen of Imladris
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Last Visited: 31 Dec 2003
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:21 pm |
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Yours is a good adaptation if you want a puristy miniseries that goes on for weeks.
Puristy? What does that mean? It would be Tolkien's LOTR, not Jackson's Generic Fantasyland Roughly Modeled On LOTR. And why weeks? This is silly hyperbole and rhetoric. That scene would take 2 minutes, and some of the lines are already in the film, just in the wrong place. Drop 5 minutes of invented mumak-surfing and mumak-dominos, and you've got room for the suspense of this and the fact that they find the courier dead on the road, never having made it to Gondor at all, so that Denethor has no way of knowing that they're coming, and not to give up hope. Politically and militarily the original makes for a much more intelligent, and yes, suspensful and *dark* story than Orlando Bloom in Dances With Mumaks.
>>Why isn't Theoden allowed to change his mind? I do it all the time. <<
Are you a seventy-year-old head of state with decades of experience in combat and command in wartime, and civic affairs and economics in peacetime?
Robo points out that Movie!Theoden isn't acting very responsibly. This is very true, for the movie character. He doesn't act his age, or like a leader with experience and integrity. What is appropriate (or at least, excusable) behaviour for someone much younger without the same experiences and not raised with the same responsibilities is utterly inappropriate for a veteran CIC and elder statesman. (This is also a problem with Movie!Aragorn, fwiw, and if they were going to make him act like a moody college student, in terms of decisiveness, it would have been better to leave out altog. the canon mention of his age - it just makes no sense given what they did with his character.)
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