Legolas with a girlfriend?

Fans of the movies? Love those actors; How about the characters? Come here to discuss all forms of fandom surrounding Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings.

Postby NimrodelSong » Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:47 pm

This thread is only for fun.<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> I'm happy with the movies and books as they are, as far as Legolas being a warrior elf and not having been given a love interest. Really, I am.<BR><BR>But I was just wondering what all of you think it would've been like if PJ had given Legolas a girlfriend, mortal or elf?<BR><BR>Just speculation!<BR><BR>~Nim~
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Postby ArwenUndomiel » Thu Jan 01, 2004 3:34 am

It would have been weird and over romantic... because there's allready the Arwen/Aragorn thing going on... especially if Legolas' girlfriend was a mortal... then it would just have been a repeat...
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Postby Quidditchgurl69 » Thu Jan 01, 2004 7:50 pm

Yeah, for me I would've been scared REALLY bad! It's just too much love and relationships. And it's not in the books, so that would be worse. Plus, a friend of mine has a HUGE crush on Orli, and she would be soooo mad and u don't want to see her when she's angry! (really!)
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Postby shieldmatron » Thu Jan 01, 2004 10:06 pm

He'll always have Gimli! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-devil.gif"border=0>
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Postby NimrodelSong » Thu Jan 01, 2004 10:07 pm

<b>Shieldmatron -</b> <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I'm really glad that Pete didn't do anything like that with Legolas. <BR><BR>~Nim~
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Postby eLwEnaReDhEl » Thu Jan 01, 2004 10:17 pm

What would happen? Well for one it'd be in the news that some LOTR maniac murdered PJ, and two half of TORC would be in a mental institute from the anger. Bakshi would rule over all!!1
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Postby $mAug_dRagYn » Thu Jan 01, 2004 10:52 pm

There would be many less ponce jokes<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0>
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Postby eLwEnaReDhEl » Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:04 pm

I won't even get into the fact that it would most likely destroy the film, even more non-book readers. There are time constraints <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0>
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Postby Elf_Lady2001 » Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:44 am

What would it have been like if PJ had given Legolas a girlfriend?<BR><BR>Beyond awful. It would have changed the entire tone of the character in the movie.
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Postby elf-maiden » Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:41 am

What would happen if PJ gave Legolas a girlfriend? I'll tell you what would happen: I'd kill him. Unless of course I was the love interst.<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-devil.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby LalaithUrwen » Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:37 am

Fun thought, Nim! Well, I can't see how it would've worked in the current LOTR's movies. (I personally wouldn't mind seeing a full-length film devoted entirely to Legolas, and a girlfriend in that, namely *me*, would be perfectly wonderful. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0> ) The only way I can see the addition of a girlfriend not ruining the current movies would be for her to be happily back in Mirkwood awaiting his return--perhaps the only scenes with her being a parting scene between her and Legolas, a pining scene while he's away fighting Orliphaunts and such, and a welcome-home scene. (And I'll be good about the welcome-home scene. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-devil.gif"border=0> )<BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Matron, that's just wickedly funny. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif"border=0> (I assume you've read "The Very Secret Diaries"?)<BR><BR>Lalaith<BR><BR>P.S. Elf-maiden, I love the sig pic! LOL! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby elf-maiden » Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:28 am

Thanks LalaithUrwen!<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I was just thinking. Wouldn't it be cool if PJ made a movie out of one of the Fan Fics written by a TORCer? Not one of those Mary-Sue's or anything,but a well written story about Legolas and his love interest. The Easterling would have my vote,I love that story. It's really funny,exciting,and has a love story,but it's not really all mushy(It is a little but still). Or maybe the Maids of Mithlond.<BR><BR>(I know there's two stories called The Easterling. The one I'm refering too was written in the old Reading Room. You can only find it if you use the Search on the front page. It was written about the time of A Tale of Mirkwood first started. I can't remember the author,I'll have to go look.)
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Postby -|---Anduril » Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:36 am

lol, ok, first I would have killed PJ, because that would have REALLY screwed the book up...yes, I'm a purist, so sue me <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-rolleyes.gif"border=0><BR>Then, once the killing spree was over I'd laugh manically at all the outraged fangirls <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-devil.gif"border=0>
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Postby elf-maiden » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:08 pm

Lol. You're so thoughtful Andu.<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby NimrodelSong » Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:26 pm

Oh, stop you guys, you're killing me.<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> Great responses<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> Elf-maiden, your sig pic about did me in - that's so funny!<BR><BR>And I agree with you all, that would've been a terrible travesty to the books. I'm glad it didn't happen. Legolas is such a wonderful, romantic character, isn't he? He stands on his own - and very handsomely, I might add.<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR><BR>~Nim~
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Postby lady_of_legolas » Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:08 pm

ok ok panic over. i saw the title, though there would be a pic and slightly freaked out. but now im ok. ok. breathe. i would definetly KILL PJ, and if he did a fan thing there would be war anyway - would be like who owns jack? over who got to be the love intrest! - and im not giving up that easily!!! <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby GirlElf » Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:59 pm

If Legolas had a girlfriend? Elf or Mortal? How about Half Elf? I'm don't think I would like it in the movies unless he made two versions that could be cool! Anyway... I've written I little fan fiction and the love intrest for Legolas is a Half Elf.<BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR>~GirlElf~ <BR>~Enlonniel~ <BR>~HalfElven <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>(hee hee)~
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Postby GirlElf » Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:28 pm

<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>Bump<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR>~GirlElf~<BR>
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Postby elf-maiden » Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:00 pm

Lol.Don't want this to die huh GirlElf?<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby shieldmatron » Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:05 pm

For that matter, what about Frodo with a girlfriend? And Merry? And Pippin? What about a wife for Gimli back in some cave? Did Saruman have a woman locked away in Orthanc? Was there a Witch Queen of Angmar wondering why the mister wasn't coming home? And Gandalf? Uh...<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif"border=0><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif"border=0> Nevermind...And all those women in Gondor that Boromir had loved? What about them? I don't like them at all, but I'm sure they were peeved that he wasn't coming home with child support!<BR><BR>Looks like PJ could milk this out for years!<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0>
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Postby Tigerlily_Goldworthy » Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:10 pm

No, my Gimli. Legolas can't have him. (Save for a friend... besides, there *is* such a thing as a *platonic* [ie, non-sexual] relationship between two people of the same gender... )<BR><BR>Sorry. I have problems with people who think Gimli and Legolas are gay. I much prefer them straight, as I can then claim my love interest (Ok, so just a clone, but at Least I've got Beregond to myself...) <BR><BR>Legolas with a girlfriend would almost make the 'Sueage worse, 'cause then, everyone would write temselves as the girl, or in place of the girl, making her shallow, like some people have done to Elizabeth in POTC. Or Arwen in LotR. Grr.
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Postby Donisiliel » Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:36 am

Well, look what I found on the second page! ;)

I'd say that the addition of a love interest for Legolas in the movie would be an unnecessary destraction from the plot. I think it would also take away from Legolas's charm; for I find that part of the attraction of his character is the fact that we really don't know all that much about him. I also wonder: though Legolas is a young Elf (comparatively speaking), wouldn't he already have married? According to Tolkien, Elves marry fairly early in their youth, around age 50. (He wrote so in his "Laws and Customes of the Eldar." He was speaking specifically of the Noldor in that essay, but I imagine that although the other clans of Elves may not have followed everything set down there exactly, they would have had very similar practices.)

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Postby Luthriel_Greenleaf » Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:18 am

Elfgirl, I love your pic!
Where can I find your fanfic?

I'm writing my own fanfic, Legolas gets married twice in his life (First wife dies)
his second one is the grandaughter of Aragorn (she IS halfelven)

I'm glad PJ didn't give Legolas a GF, too many people would have had a fit, including me.

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Postby Elf_Lady2001 » Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:57 am

True Doni. Tolkien did write that elves usually married early and that those that did not were an exception. However, since Tolkien never specifically mentioned Legolas being married, I'm of the opinion that he was not.
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Postby Aurelin » Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:24 pm

Luthriel, I think I should mention before you get too far with your fan-fic, that Elves do not marry twice (I am assuming the first wife is an Elf). It would mean that the first wife would have to have been so tormented that she'd never want to be reborn and that she could not, even if she wished later, when she has promised not to and the Valar have decreed that her spouse could wed again.
The absence of the desire to be reborn is taken a a flaw, a mark of the Marring of Arda. There is only one recorded case of an Elf marrying twice - Finwė and Miriel and Indis, and look what happened because of that. So I guess after that Elves would not want to do that again.

But now returning to the topic at hand. I would not have liked it either, giving Legolas a girlfriend. It would have kind of made the story less serious since the relationship would be not comparable to the Aragorn-Arwen-Eowyn business.
And I agree with Doni - the little amount of info about the Elf lets everyone imagine what they will and makes the character more closer to the reader if he can be what you want him to be.

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Postby balrogthane » Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:08 am

Very good question! I didn't realize anything serious was actually in this forum... I would've come here more often. :P

Yes, I am sure PJ would have gotten all those responses, and the movies themselves, and etc. But far more important is the effect on the story. As so many have already said, it would detract unforgivably from Aragorn/Arwen. Also, it would be an odd distraction for the others... why should he get a love interest, and not anyone else but Aragorn?

As to having a sweetheart waiting for him at home: I don't think the Elves of Mirkwood are really a growing people. It seems to me that they would be very wary of marrying in such a hostile clime, and if Legolas ever did have a wife (perhaps at such an early age as 50 :shock: ), there is the very real possibility that she died. I would say it is all but certain that there is no-one in his life, though, at the time of LotR, and not later either.

TG, I agree with you. Maybe most people don't really mean it... but that's just WRONG. :x :P No Legolas+Gimli! Or anything else!

My own 2 cents... and btw, I'm a guy. :D

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Postby Donisiliel » Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:04 pm

Interesting thoughts, guys.

Another thing that I've wondered is that if Legolas had a wife or sweetheart, he wouldn't have made such a close bond with Gimli. (I must clarify that I do not believe their relationship was sexual in any respect, as some have suggested either in seriousness or jest.) I've thought that perhaps if Legolas was already occupied with a relationship of such depth as marriage, he would not have been as inclined or receptive to the strong friendship that forms between him and Gimli. I'm interesting to hear what the rest of you think of this theory.

I just had another intriguing thought. None of the rest of the Fellowship were married. (Well, we don't know for sure about Gimli, but given the scarcity of Dwarf women, I think we can assume he's not.) Perhaps Elrond had a reason for choosing the Fellowship thus. Without having responsabilities to wives or families, the Fellowship members would have been better able to risk and if need be, sacrifice their lives for the quest without having to worry about loved ones left alone at home.

That said, I'd still like to think that Legolas marries a nice Elf-girl at some point in time. Maybe he meets someone special in Valinor.

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Postby Aurelin » Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:04 pm

I've thought that perhaps if Legolas was already occupied with a relationship of such depth as marriage, he would not have been as inclined or receptive to the strong friendship that forms between him and Gimli.

Indeed. It would have also been really hard for the hypothetical wife.

And I agree that having wives would have impeded the sacrifices that the members of the Fellowship had to be ready for.
I would say it is all but certain that there is no-one in his life,
though, at the time of LotR, and not later either.

It is my opinion too if the "later" is seen as the time in ME. I think that Legolas was single and that in Valinor he'd meet up with someone. I remember reading that marrying was seen as more natural than remaining single for Elves (for that matter Men too), so it seems more logical to assume he does get married in Valinor.

I do not think that he had a wife who died. The reason is that the lines of Galadriel's little poem were "In joy thou hast lived". A dead love does not really qualify and also if he had a wife who had died and may have already been reborn in Valinor, I think he'd had the "sea-longing" before. Of Elrond it I think was said that he "finally was able to sail after his wife" or something and it would only seem natural for an Elf whose spouse has died to wish more to leave Middle-earth in hopes of meeting him or her again.

Also I do not think that Legolas' wife could have died because in Mirkwood it would most possibly mean by the hands of Orcs and indirectly because of the Necromancer and the Nazgul. But in all the actions of Legolas you do not see a personal hatred of Sauron or Orcs, it is the natural hatred of the creatures and the evil of Sauron who have hurt his home and his people, but not a hate of someone whose wife or close family was taken by the same forces (as opposite to Elladan and Elrohir. I do not see them play the killing-game.).

A big reason for not beliveing Legolas married is the already mentioned reluctance of Elves marrying in evil times and in Mirkwood those times had been 2000 years' long (and I am in the camp of people who think that Legolas was not very old, certainly under 2000, therefore born when the wood was already names Mirkwood) and the overall twilight of the Elves in ME. Feeling that the time was not right, the Elves might have put off all weddings till the more joyous times in Valinor.

Ok, by the end was rambling but I hope some meaning can be discerned.


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Postby Donisiliel » Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:38 pm

Aurelin wrote:A big reason for not believing Legolas married is
the already mentioned reluctance of Elves marrying in evil times


Is there a passage that you could refer me to that says so? I do know that Tolkien says that the Elves didn't have children during times of war because they didn't want the parents to be sepparated during the birth and early years of the child's life.

Yet it would seem to any of the Eldar a grievous thing if a wedded pair were sundered during the bearing of a child, or while the first years of its childhood lasted. For which reason the Eldar would beget children only in days of happiness and peace if they could.
Morgoth's Ring, page 213

In another passage of Morgoth's Ring that deals with the marriage customs of the Eldar, Tolkien writes:

In happy days and times of peace it was held ungracious and contemptuous to forgo the ceremonies, but it was at all times lawful for any of the Eldar, both being unwed, to marry thus of free consent one to another without ceremony or witness (save blessings exchanged and the naming of the Name); and the union so joined was alike indissoluble. In days of old, in times of trouble, in flight and exile and wandering, such marriages were often made.
Morgoth's Ring, page 212

This passage makes me think that the Elves would have married even in times of trouble and evil; however, they would have waited to have children until better days. Therefore, I don't think it would be wrong to think that the Elves of Mirkwood would have married during the dark days of Mirkwood. Aurelin, I do agree with you that Mirkwood does not seem to be growing. You could even say it is in decline. I suppose this might have to do with the decline of the race of Elves in general.

Aurelin wrote:I am in the camp of people who think that Legolas was not very old,
certainly under 2000, therefore born when the wood was already named Mirkwood.


If Legolas was born during the darkness of Mirkwood, though, this might go against the idea that Elves only had children during "good" times. How bad were things supposed to be in Mirkwood during the time of the Necromancer? Also, if we decide that Legolas could have been born during such difficult times, then surely the Elves would have married in those days, too.

I also was thinking that if Legolas is not married when he leaves Middle-earth, how likely is it that he would marry in Valinor? If he were to marry, I imagine that it would be after Gimli's death. (Okay, this raises the side issue of whether mortals die in Valinor. I believe that they must, because relocating to the land of the Valar would still not change the nature of the mortal fëa.) It seems to me that at this point in Legolas's life, he might no longer have the desire to marry. Tolkien speaks of how the Elves impulses and moods change as they age. Given that the Elves generally marry early in youth, I think they would not be so inclined to do so much later in life. (However, perhaps we should take the whole "marrying at 50" thing with a grain of salt, since if you look at some of the major characters in LotR like Galadriel, Arwen, and Luthien, they remained unwed for quite a long time.)

Argh... This can get complicated. However, I do enjoy discussing and speculating on the subject.

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Postby Aurelin » Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:36 pm

It has got really difficult.

Doni, you are right, there is no passage of not-marrying in evil times. I have no idea why I tied that up in my head to the child thing. Especially since the Edain and Eldar were quite alike in early days and we all remember Rian who married Huor just before the Nirnaeth where the possibility of him not coming back was very big.
If Legolas was born during the darkness of Mirkwood, though, this might go against the idea that Elves only had children during "good" times. How bad were things supposed to be in Mirkwood during the time of the Necromancer? Also, if we decide that Legolas could have been born during such difficult times, then surely the Elves would have married in those days, too.

The marrying thing we can now forget but since I still am sure he is not too old, there was always the Watchful Peace of more than 400 years.
Also JRR usually has generations fairly clearly drawn - we have the father and son of Amdir and Amroth and Oropher and Tharanduil, a lot of parallels. If we suppose that Celeborn was about the same age as Oropher, Thranduil's father, then Celebrian would be with Thranduil and Legolas with Arwen and the twins.

The quote "Marriage, save for ill chances or strange fates, was the natural course of life for all the Eldar" (Morgoth's Ring, 210) still makes me belive Legolas possibly married in Valinor.

Mortals do die in Valinor. There is an essay dealing with the who Men and Aman theme in Morgoth's Ring. In the part Myths Transformed, the text number XI Aman. Also the end of the Athrabeth's notes, page 366, quotes from the Letters of Frodo's fate.

The number 50 to 100 for the Elves gaining of their full-stature for me was made shaky when I got to the end of Morgoth's Ring, the same text XI.
"But since Aman was made for the Valar, that they might have peace and delight therein, all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trainer or bred or brought into being for the purpose of inhabitation in Aman were given a speed of growth such that one year of the life natural to their kinds on Earth should in Aman be one Valian Year.
For the Eldar this was a source of joy. For in Aman the world appeared to them as it does to Men on Earth, but without the shadow of death soon to come. Whereas on Earth things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to change and die or pass away, in Aman they endured and did not so soon cheat love with their mortality. On Earth while an elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3000 years...."


Ok, in the notes to the same text JRR equated 1 Valian Year to 144 Sun-years and that gives the age of the same elf-child as grown-up in Valian Years 21 (the usual number among his works and real life). So the 50 does not fit as much as I can understand.
From one side we could say that therefore Legolas would have to be more than 3000 years old, but for me what makes it all the more difficult is that those two texts seem to be from about the same time but which preceded? The one before would more likely be the number that JRR had in mind when writing LOTR.
Then again, when written at about the same time, could the 50 and the 3000 be contradictory?
Those two numbers have created for me one of the most puzzling pieces of information and I have tied myself to knots trying to relate it now once more. I'll stop now before my head explodes.


:roll: Aurelin :roll:
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Aurelin
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Posts: 4568
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:11 pm
Location: Once Estonia, now Japan
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