Incanus
Ranger of the North
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 22 Jul 2009
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1334
|
Posted: Tue Feb 3, 2004 6:21 pm |
     |
|
Not sure if this topic has been discussed recently...no search results.
Anywho...
What did Gandalf intend to do after Moria, if he had not fallen? How did he intend to lead the Fellowship?
March straight up to the Black Gate?
Or take the pass of Cirith Ungol?
I have always ruminated on what Gandalf had in mind for the future, but I have not been able to find anything in what Tolkien wrote to solidify what Gandalf intended to do.
Any thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
|
evenstar1
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Servant to Luthien
Last Visited: 23 Aug 2008
Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3886
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 3, 2004 6:30 pm |
|
|
I always figured he had the same plan in mind to ride to edoras.
|
|
|
|
|
|
wilko185
by stok other ston
Alliance: House of Finrod Felagund
Last Visited: 01 Apr 2010
Joined: 18 Nov 2001
Posts: 7880
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 3, 2004 6:51 pm |
|
|
Frodo let Gandalf's plan slip in Ithilien: "I wish we had a thousand oliphaunts with Gandalf on a white one at their head. Then we'd break a way into this evil land, perhaps."
Or perhaps not  
Gandalf was always warning against looking too far ahead on the road. I doubt he would have gone over Cirith Ungol, given his reaction when he learns Frodo went that way. But I don't think he had a concrete plan of how to enter Mordor. Except to just have faith in the Ringbearer finding a way.Gandalf's guidance had been taken from them too soon, too soon, while the Dark Land was still very far away. How they should enter it at the last Gandalf had not said. Perhaps he could not say. Into the stronghold of the Enemy in the North, into Dol Guldur, he had once ventured. But into Mordor, to the Mountain of Fire and to Barad-dûr, since the Dark Lord rose in power again, had he ever journeyed there? Frodo did not think so. Edit: at Parth Galen Aragorn indicates that Frodo, not Gandalf, would have chosen the way. This wasn't a mission based on practicalities after all, just a "fool's hope". "Well, Frodo," said Aragorn at last. "I fear that the burden is laid upon you. You are the Bearer appointed by the Council. Your own way you alone can choose. In this matter I cannot advise you. I am not Gandalf, and though I have tried to bear his part, I do not know what design or hope he had for this hour, if indeed he had any. Most likely it seems that if he were here now the choice would still wait on you. Such is your fate."
|
|
 |
.. the very monsters and huge fishes of the sea, war not amongst themselves in their own kind: but believe me, man at man's hand receiveth most harm and mischief.
-- Pliny |
|
|
|
|
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 15 Oct 2004
Joined: 06 Mar 2002
Posts: 2947
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 3, 2004 9:21 pm |
|
|
In Which way did Gandalf want Frodo to go? and (I think) Mordor Secrets (both currently not accessible), I theorised that the old fortress of Durthang may have guarded a third route into Mordor. Given that Narchost and Carchost (the Towers of the Teeth) and the Tower of Cirith Ungol were built by the Men of Gondor to guard the entrances to Mordor, it seems logical that Durthang (sindarin for 'Dark Oppression' ) was yet another of the fortifications built as part of the Dúnedain watch over the routes into the Black Land.A few miles north, high up in the angle where the western spur branched away from the main range, stood the old castle of Durthang, now one of the many orc-holds that clustered about the dale of Udûn.
'The Land of Shadow', The Return of the King An orc-hold seems less dangerous than attempting the Morannon or hazarding Shelob and the Silent Watchers. So, speculating wildly, I postulated that this path past Durthang was the route that Gandalf planned to take Frodo into Mordor.
However Gandalf always intended to destroy the Ring by melting it in the fires in the Crack of Doom .
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lord_Morningstar
Mariner
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 26 Aug 2010
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 7416
Location: Queensland, Australia
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 3, 2004 9:50 pm |
|
|
Maybe he intended to ambush a party of Easterlings, steal their clothes and march into the Black Gate a la the Wizard of Oz.
Or maybe not.
As for Durthang guarding a way into Mordor, it is possible I suppose, as there are presumably more passes over the Mountains of Shadow that Cirith Ungol and the Morgul pass.
I actually don’t think Gandalf had a plan myself, based on the way he cuts his answer short when asked. There is another issue, in TTT it is said that Frodo, Sam and Gollum couldn’t have crossed the marshes with heavier companions, so I think he must have either intended to leave the river earlier and risk the Dagorlad and maybe enter Mordor via Ered Lithui (which would have been a very slow, difficult and dangerous road) or travel down the cliffs below Tol Brandir, and continue via elven boat to Ithillien which IMHO is more likely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Isilme
Citizen of Imladris
Alliance: House of Fingolfin
Last Visited: 27 Feb 2004
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 79
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 3, 2004 10:43 pm |
|
|
I don't think Gandalf intended to go with Frodo. While he warned against looking too far into the future, he was extremely wise and, in the Tolkien world, wisdom also brings with it an ability to "see" into the future, if only by seeing the most likely possibilities. It seems very clear from Aragorn's feelings and Gandalf's reaction that it is meant for Frodo and Sam to go on alone. Aragorn, who while modest was very close to Gandalf and very wise himself, sees it as the necessary step for Frodo to go on alone, and Gandalf does not seem too upset over this fact. This is Frodo's journey, and therefore necessarily Sam's too, but not the whole Fellowship's. Perhaps Gandalf would have provided advice and guidance as to which road to take, but I do not think he would have followed Frodo and Sam at the Breaking. And when it comes down to it, I think Cirith Ungol was the only way in. the Morannon are obviously hopeless, and even if Durthang does guard another way in, I doubt very much that it would have been any less gaurded than Cirith Ungol, and probably more so because there is no Shelob at Durthang. But remember, had Gandalf not fallen and the fellowship stayed together to Mordor, Isengard would not have been defeated because Gandalf wouldn't have had time to free Theoden, which means Minas Tirith would have fallen. Gandalf would have seen these possibilities, and would have recognized where he was most needed; in Rohan and Gondor, not with Frodo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
ArPharazon
Mariner
Alliance: House of Beren
Last Visited: 29 Jan 2005
Joined: 13 Dec 2001
Posts: 6360
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 3, 2004 11:20 pm |
|
|
Gandalf seems to have worked often by taking bold steps, as inspiration took him, and then waiting on fate to work a "miracle".
I think this is probably a very Christian theme, deliberately used by JRRT.
We are supposed to do the best we can, given our understanding of God's will and purpose for us, then wait patiently (and without outlining the outcome too much) for HIM to show us HIS resolution - which may be unexpected, but which will bless all.
This is in part I think how Tolkien saw "fate" as working. It is also, if you think about it, how he approached his own writing (see HoME).
ArPhy
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dad-human
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Dol Amroth
Last Visited: 21 Jun 2006
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 1936
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 3, 2004 11:41 pm |
|
|
Great answers. Something I noticed is that in the kitchen of Bag End Frodo could not by his will throw the Ring into the fire in his stove. So it seems to me that Gandalf must have known that he couldn't throw it into the fires of Mt. Doom.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Valaróma
Citizen of Imladris
Alliance: Stewards of Gondor
Last Visited: 01 May 2004
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 95
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 4, 2004 2:11 am |
|
|
Isilme,
"Cirith Ungol!" he muttered. "Why that way, I wonder?"He turned. "Just now, Pippin, my heart almost failed me, hearing that name...
Feeling like that I don't think Gandalf intended Frodo to take that pass. He certainly didn't intend him to march through the black gate either. So there must have been other ways. Durthang sounds very reasonable for me. But I also agree that Gandalf probably didn't have any specific plans. It was always meant to be Frodo's choice and Frodo's (and Sam's) journey.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Arwen.Undomiel
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Servant to Luthien
Last Visited: 02 Mar 2005
Joined: 20 Nov 2001
Posts: 2787
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 4, 2004 8:25 am |
|
|
Going to Mordor through Durthang always seemed to me something that Gandalf would do. It might have been a safer way, and if I'm not mistaken, in "Hobbit", Gandalf also planned to lead Bilbo and the dwarves over Misty Mountains by the safest way possible.
He is a wizard after all, and according to that, also wise. Maybe he would've even used some magic
|
|
|
|
|
|
ArPharazon
Mariner
Alliance: House of Beren
Last Visited: 29 Jan 2005
Joined: 13 Dec 2001
Posts: 6360
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 4, 2004 9:18 am |
|
|
Almost all Gandalf's "magic", if not all, relates to fire - doesn't it?
ArPhy
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rohini
Rider of the Mark
Alliance: rohan
Last Visited: 27 May 2005
Joined: 31 Jan 2002
Posts: 682
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 4, 2004 9:55 am |
|
|
What Ar-Pharzon said.
But really peple have asked if Gandalf is so powerful why can't he just levitate the ring to Mount Doom or why didn't he just give the eagles to drop it in the boiling lake of lava?  See below.
Top 10 Ways to Pick a Lord of the Rings Fight
Lord of the Rings fans can take themselves very seriously. If you want to have some fun, try saying some of the following things to them and see how mad they get.
1) "It's just a ring,"
Yes, ultimately this is something that goes on your finger, so why is it such a corrupting force of evil?
2) “Why doesn’t anyone have a simple name, like Bob or Joe?”
Everyone’s name is something like Aragorn or Faramir. Even Sam is short for Samwise. And they’re so similar. Sauron and Sarumen are different characters. Yes, the names should be simpler.
3) "Ralph Bakshi rules!"
I've never seen the animated Lord of the Rings, but just mentioning makes their blood boil.
4) “Why are the trees talking?”
Talking trees are old hat in fantasy stories, but try applying logic to it.
5) “James Van Der Beek is great as the elf.”
When I first saw the trailer, I seriously thought Orlando Bloom was James Van Der Beek with his flowing blonde hair.
6) “Gandalf’s a wizard. Why can't he just levitate the ring to Mt. Doom?"
Again, apply logic.
7) “The best elf is Will Ferrell”
Elf is a hilarious holiday comedy.
 “Harry Potter could kick Gandalf’s ass.”
I admit, I thought of this because of the South Park spoof that poked fun at the Potter/Rings rivalry.
9) "Can't Sauron make another ring?"
They make such a big deal out of destroying it, but if it could be made in the first place, can't they make another one?
10) “Doesn’t Gollum look like Jar Jar without the dreads?”
Okay, that's a cheap shot. Gollum is a much better character.
~ Fred Topel
|
|
|
|
|
|
MithLuin
Mariner
Alliance: House of Finrod Felagund
Last Visited: 24 Aug 2010
Joined: 16 Oct 1999
Posts: 8140
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 4, 2004 12:54 pm |
|
|
Almost all Gandalf's "magic", if not all, relates to fire - doesn't it? ~ ArPhy
Most of it, yes. But not all - his healing abilities are not exactly based on traditional medicine (Narya plays a role there, of course). [healing, not exorcism! Silly directors....] Obviously I'm mostly thinking of Theoden, but he did spend most of the Battle of Pelennor trying to heal people of the Black Breath until he figured out that that was Aragorn's job.
He tries various incantations to open the Door of Moria - the fact that they don't work is only partially relevant. He uses a Word of Command to shut the door of the Chamber of Mazarbul, after his shutting spell is countered by the Balrog. He manages to break the bridge of Khazad-dum - I know there's a flash of light there, but splitting stone is separate from fire.
From far away, he tells Frodo "take off the Ring!" while Frodo is on Amon Hen. I'm not sure what sort of "magic" you want to call that. It's probably ring-related.
Now that I think about it...he uses "magic words" as Gandalf the Grey, but as Gandalf the White he just does stuff. I wonder if that is significant?
But, to answer this thread's question:
If Gandalf had a plan, Tolkien didn't know what it was
How wicked is that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Isilme
Citizen of Imladris
Alliance: House of Fingolfin
Last Visited: 27 Feb 2004
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 79
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 4, 2004 5:40 pm |
|
|
Tolkien's magic seems in general to be more a strength of will than a strength of words. Whereas in books like Harry Potter magic is dependant on words and proper flicking of wands, Tolkien's magic is more dependant on the strength of the persons will. After his reincarnation, Gandalf "contends with the Dark Lord" (I'm not sure if that is the exact wording, sorry). Gandalf occasionally uses spells and words as tools in performing magic, but when he needs it most it is a contest of the mind and willpower.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TheWagner
Ranger of the North
Alliance: Valinor
Last Visited: 16 Aug 2010
Joined: 05 May 2001
Posts: 4339
Location: Washington D.C. and a lot of other places
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 5, 2004 5:30 am |
|
|
Actually, HP is supposed to be similar - it is following the traditional idea that the incantations and wand waving is a focus for the will.
That being said, the only two obvious associations between magic and "spell" were Gandalf's word of power and Aragorn's scrying of the Morgul blade.
The WK screeches when shattering Frodo's blade and the Gates of Minas Tirith. However, what the Nazgul did was sorcery, not magic, and the two were very different in Tolkien's universe. Galadriel tries to explain that to Sam when she explains that their use of "magic" for what Elves do and the devices of the enemy confuses her. This, too, follows old Biblical tradition, as correct translations of the Old Testament also distinguish between sorcery and magic. (Tolkien explains this in one of his letters, using Greek terms that I do not recall.)
Edit: I think that Arphy and others probably have the gist of it by suggesting that Gandalf himself did not know how they would get into Mordor. That was offered by Aragorn himself, who probably kept closer counsel with Gandalf than any of the others.
|
|
|
|
|
|
  |
|
Goto:
|
|
|
|
|
| The time now is Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:18 am ... All times are GMT - 8 Hours
|
|
| |
Give Incanus a Premiere Membership!
