| Would you add the Epilogue to the ending of LOTR? |
| Yes, I would add it. |
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37% |
[ 3 ] |
| No, leave it as it is. |
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62% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 8 |
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Cock-Robin
Friend of Eagles
Alliance: Valinor
Last Visited: 20 Nov 2009
Joined: 05 Sep 2001
Posts: 2294
Location: Walking around the country and seeing folk
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:25 pm |
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The Epilogue
For some reason, the ending of LOTR where Sam says "Well, I'm back." has always been a letdown for me.
I recently read in
The End of the Third Age
, and I think it's also in
The Defeat of Sauron,
that Tolkien didn't intend to end it that way originally in his manuscript. There was an epilogue where Sam answers some of the questions of his children years later, just prior to the visit of King Elessar to the borders of the Shire. I found this a more interesting and upbeat ending to the story.
What do some of the rest of you think?
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Bard of the Eagles, Bard's Guild
And all those who see me
And all who believe in me
Share in the freedom I feel when I fly!
The Eagle and the Hawk, John Denver
Gwaeryn and Robin, The Expected Party!
Meneldor and Brondgast, Knights in Training
Boartooth the Mace, Redemption: The Reckoning
Alatar, Pallando and Meneldor, Darkness Triumphant: The Resistance |
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RoseMorninStar
Humble gardener of the Shire
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 20 Nov 2009
Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 7774
Location: North Shire, USA
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:58 pm |
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Cock-Robin, This is a tough question for me because the Epilogue is one of my favorite parts! I know Tolkien had wanted it to be included but the publishers talked him out of it saying, in effect, that it was already too long and 'who cares about what happens to the hobbits anyway?' AS IF!!!!!
Should it be added now? I don't know. I am glad I have read it and know it exists, but to change it now... I don't know.
As an aside.. I have the epilogue on my computer if anyone wants a copy I can send it to them if they give me their e-mail address.
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krawler
Ranger of the North
Alliance: House of Thranduil
Last Visited: 20 Nov 2009
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 1081
Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:47 pm |
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I say leave it as is. I have read the epilogue, and I think including it would have been a bad way to end LotR. Just the way jumps completely out of the story, turning all of the preceding into just a story within a story I think would somehow rob the journey's end of its savor. For me, at least. I don't think I'm explaining myself very well, but I just tend to think that books should end where the story ends, unless the end demands it, which I don't think is the case with LotR. (with movies, on the other hand, I've come to demand those little mini-epilogue clips at the end of the credits before I'll call it good  )
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scirocco
Ranger of the North
Alliance: House of Feanor
Last Visited: 12 Aug 2008
Joined: 04 Oct 2000
Posts: 1937
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:45 pm |
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I quite like the Epilogue but I can understand why it was left out. You don't have to be a severe critic to find it excessively sentimental. It also doesn't work very well in terms of pacing; it's almost like another story starting off.
Tolkien was persuaded by others to omit the Epilogue; in fact he said it had been "roundly condemned". However, he seems to have at least partially agreed with the decision to leave it it out; feeling that although something about Sam and Elanor was needed, he could not devise anything that would not have "destroyed the ending", as he put it.
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RoseMorninStar
Humble gardener of the Shire
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 20 Nov 2009
Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 7774
Location: North Shire, USA
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JudyA
Mariner
Alliance: House of Gilgalad
Last Visited: 20 Nov 2009
Joined: 16 May 2001
Posts: 7028
Location: Sydneeeeeeeeeeeeeey
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Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:52 am |
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I've always loved the ending just as it is. Poignant but also hopeful. 
I think the Epilogue works best separate from the book, as an individual extra thing to think about.
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pippinsqueak
Ranger of the North
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 29 May 2009
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 2941
Location: Lost in Farmer Maggot's crops
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Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:04 pm |
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Much as I love Sam (he's always been my favorite character), I have to agree with scirocco that the epilogue is overly sentimental. It's a blessing Tolkien was convinced to leave it out.
The 'well, I'm back' ending is perfect, and Sam becomes Bilbo's true heir (as Tolkien described him), completing his own 'there and back again' journey.
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RoseMorninStar
Humble gardener of the Shire
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 20 Nov 2009
Joined: 30 May 2004
Posts: 7774
Location: North Shire, USA
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Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:32 pm |
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I do love the 'Well, I'm back' as well. It is a good ending. But perhaps the epilogue could've been a part of the Appendices. In any case.. when I first read the epilogue.. I thought it was a 'gem' of a find and I am so glad it was published even if it had not been included in the book. Something special for those who take the time to look I guess. Of course, there are many (P.J. included) who did not like the Scouring of the Shire and would have that left out of the book also... and that.. I strongly disagree with, but there is another thread with my thoughts on that subject.
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Cock-Robin
Friend of Eagles
Alliance: Valinor
Last Visited: 20 Nov 2009
Joined: 05 Sep 2001
Posts: 2294
Location: Walking around the country and seeing folk
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Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:39 pm |
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Well, I'm in agreement that if it is entered, it should be in the appendices along with that story of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. I do like that epilogue, it gives closure in an upbeat way. It's just IMHO that "Well, I'm back" is a letdown after all the great events that preceeded it. And I appreciate everybody's feedback. It was enlightening.
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Bard of the Eagles, Bard's Guild
And all those who see me
And all who believe in me
Share in the freedom I feel when I fly!
The Eagle and the Hawk, John Denver
Gwaeryn and Robin, The Expected Party!
Meneldor and Brondgast, Knights in Training
Boartooth the Mace, Redemption: The Reckoning
Alatar, Pallando and Meneldor, Darkness Triumphant: The Resistance |
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truehobbit
blithe and bonny
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 20 Nov 2009
Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 8380
Location: back in the land of make-believe
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Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:11 pm |
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I think Tolkien didn't often listen to advice - he knew quite well for himself what worked and what didn't. The fact that he listened in this case, IMO, shows that he must have come to agree with the point that was made by whoever gave the advice (rather than just being persuaded against his own wishes).
For me, the ending as it is is perfect. It sums up one essential aspect of the story in three words: Sam's being able to carry on with his life successfully shows that the sacrifices everybody (but especially Frodo) made, have achieved what they could achieve. Frodo had to leave, but Sam is back.
Any additional information would not have added anything to this essential point. Once you've taken an interest in a character, it might be interesting to hear what happened to their great-great-grandchildren...but that would be a different story, then.
The achievement in writing even the longest novel is to decide what to tell in detail and what to skip. Tolkien had this whole universe as a background to his stories at the back of his mind, so leaving things out must have been even more difficult. He made good choices for LOTR, I think, and I'm always a bit surprised to hear that he almost overlooked that when it comes to the ending.
Maybe that's because going on and on about future generations is a very classic novel ending feature, while an ending like the one we have is thoroughly modern, so it's tempting to do it the way almost each book you read ends.
Our old choir conductor used to say the most important thing was to get the opening and the close right, then people wouldn't mind if there were flaws with things in the middle, as these two set the tone for the whole - and I think with this ending, Tolkien set a perfect tone, rounding everything off and yet leaving a wide open vista for the future at the same time.
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A pic a day - project 365, link to my journal
Sing me a story of heroes of the Shire,
Muddling through, brave and true,
Stubborn as bindweed and tough as old briar,
Never too showy or grand,
Year after year they persevere,
Now and for always.
(LOTR, the musical)
...for man is a giddy thing, and this is my conclusion
(Shakespeare, Much Ado) |
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ToshoftheWuffingas
Ranger of the North
Alliance: default
Last Visited: 15 Nov 2009
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Posts: 1474
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pippinsqueak
Ranger of the North
Alliance: The Shire
Last Visited: 29 May 2009
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 2941
Location: Lost in Farmer Maggot's crops
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:56 am |
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That is lovely, but then I have a hard time reconciling that with the way Rosie spoke to Sam when he did come back, criticizing him for taking his time in returning, and then for running back to his friends again as soon as he has returned. I know those are hobbit ways, but still, Rosie's character seems a bit inconsistent.
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rowanberry
Shava!
Alliance: House of Feanor
Last Visited: 19 Nov 2009
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 15437
Location: Living in a yellow submarine
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:06 am |
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It was nice to read the Epilogue in the HoME, and see what became of Sam later. But, I think that the ending of the book is simply perfect as it is; the epilogue somehow would have watered it down. Maybe that's because it
is
a bit sentimental in my opinion, too.
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Swordsman_Of_The_Tower
Ideas are weapons
Alliance: Rohan
Last Visited: 19 Nov 2009
Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 1691
Location: Massachusetts
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:06 pm |
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Read the book....digest it as the ending is. Then after a little while (days, hours whatever,) read the epilogue and appendixes for "closure" for all the characters. That's what I do anyway. 
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Maria Maria
She reminds me of a west side story
Growing up in Spanish Harlem
She's living the life just like a movie star
Maria Maria
She fell in love in East L.A.
To the sounds of the guitar
Played by Carlos Santana
Stop the looting, stop the shooting
Pick pocking on the corner
See as the rich is getting richer
The poorer is getting poorer
See mi y Maria on the corner
Thinking of ways to make it better
In my mailbox there's an eviction letter
Somebody just said see you later
-Santana "Maria Maria" |
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Armenelos
Mariner
Alliance: House of Elwe
Last Visited: 09 Dec 2008
Joined: 28 Dec 2000
Posts: 6614
Location: Tampa, FL
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:45 pm |
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I definately don't think it should be added. There is already a lot to digest. It's good for people to go and search for it elsewhere.
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Smeagolofthestoors
Shield Bearer
Alliance: House of Gilgalad
Last Visited: 24 Jul 2009
Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 342
Location: In exile after the last hostile take over in my own little world.
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Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:31 pm |
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I just don't Know! *eye twitches* So much good writing. *twitches twice*
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Morwenna
Rider of the Mark
Alliance: None
Last Visited: 20 Nov 2009
Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 743
Location: New Haven CT
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Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:25 pm |
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I like the idea of adding it to the appendices. Of course I'd like to see some of the details JRRT wrote about hobbits and other bits of Middle-earth history in his letters added to the appendices too! But the story itself should stand as it is.
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Morwenna
Rider of the Mark
Alliance: None
Last Visited: 20 Nov 2009
Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 743
Location: New Haven CT
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Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:25 pm |
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(double post)
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